Space Radiation + counter measures

RobertDyck · 2013-06-10 22:10:39

JoshNH4H wrote:

Oh, and no limestone. Limestone on Earth is the remnant of long-extinct crustaceans, and all signs point to there being none on Mars.

Coral is remains of skeletons of marine organisms by the same name. Chalk is the remains of diatoms. But the oldest limestone comes from a time before all that. Primordial Earth had a thick, heavy atmosphere of primarily CO2. That dissolved in the oceans, creating carbonic acid, a weak acid. Water breaks down plagioclase feldspar, dissolving alkali metals and alkaline earth metals into solution. Carbonic acid helps. Remaining alumino-silicates become hydrated; a several step process turns them into clay. Carbonic acid is CO3--, an ionic compound that combines with dissolved calcium, forming calcite. Magnesium also gets dissolved into solution; it also combines with carbonic acid. Calcium magnesium carbonate is dolomite. Limestone is composed of calcite and dolomite. This is how most of the CO2 of primordial Earth got sequestered. So limestone that isn't metamorphed coral or chalk is actually formed inorganically. (or is that non-biologically?) I believe this non-biological chemical process stopped once Earth developed an oxygen atmosphere.

The reason I say all this is probes have found both calcite and dolomite in soil on Mars. So could there be actual limestone at the bottom of the ancient ocean?

Hmm. Mars never did have tectonic movement. So limestone couldn't have moved to a volcanically active location. That may prevent formation of marble. Darn. But there should be granite.

JoshNH4H · 2013-06-10 22:20:01

Looking at Wikipedia, I was indeed misinformed. Most limestones on Earth come from once-living beings, but not all. Assuming there was a neutral-to-basic-pH ocean on Mars for sufficient time, we could expect some limestone but not as much. What about glass as a building material, at least as far as aesthetics are concerned?

I think it's probably important that the interior of the habitat be some color other than red. I would also suggest that maybe such nice looking apartments are going to be beyond the salary of any Martian worker for a good deal of time.

We're getting significantly off-topic, but I would imagine that for efficiency reasons there would be societal (and economic) pressures towards some kind of domestic unit, akin to the family but largely before romantic/procreative partnerships have formed. What form do you think it will take?

Last edited by JoshNH4H (2013-06-10 22:21:19)

RobertDyck · 2013-06-10 23:48:35

JoshNH4H wrote:

What about glass as a building material, at least as far as aesthetics are concerned?

There should be a deposit of white silica sand somewhere. But even if there isn't, there's lots of bytownite. The Thermal Emission Spectrometer on Mars Global Surveyor found two predominant surface types. Planet-wide, surface type 1 has 21.5% bytownite, while surface type 2 has 27%. That's a lot. And that mineral can be processed to make alumina (Al2O3). The by-product is silica gel. That can be calcinated; meaning bake it dry, but not hot enough to melt. Calcinated silica gel is used as a desiccant, to keep electronics dry. But you can calcinate to completion, it becomes silica, silicon dioxide. Melt that to make glass.

JoshNH4H · 2013-06-11 07:09:35

I like it! I suspect that that procedure may actually be used more to make glass than to make the chemical precursor for Aluminium, but I don't think that's a big problem. It would be better if we can find some white silica somewhere but no guarantees, of course.

I do question whether it's a good idea to have external windows in every apartment. One can't shield with 5m of regolith where there is a window, after all. I would say that sufficient artificial light, creative use of coloring, and internal windows, to common areas and the like, should be enough to keep people happy. I also tend to be of the opinion that, given that people spend more time in their beds than in any other single location, that should be the place that has the lowest amount of radiation out of anywhere that person spends in a day.

RobertDyck · 2013-06-11 10:28:46

I could get technical. Well, I always do that. I did over simplify. The procedure I described would produce Fused silica glass, also known as vitreous silica glass. That's rather weak. To make it strong, you have to add stuff. Soda lime glass has sodium oxide and calcium oxide added while melted to make it stronger. The process to extract alumina from bytownite requires strong hydrochloric acid, which can be produced in an electrolysis cell from brine, thick salt water. This separates NaCl into NaOH, with hydrogen gas bubbling off from one electrode, and chlorine gas from the other. Place those two gasses in a chamber without oxygen, and burn them. The result is hydrogen chloride. Dissolve in water to get hydrochloric acid. Sodium hydroxide and hydrochloric acid are used for many industrial processes, so this is a key part of any in-situ resource utilization. Boil sodium hydroxide dry to form a powder, then burn that with pure carbon in a chamber without oxygen. The result will be CO2, and sodium metal. Then react sodium metal with sodium hydroxide powder to form sodium oxide. CaO is quick lime, form by baking calcite. It will drive off CO2. Do the same with dolomite to get CaO and MgO. There's lots of calcite and dolomite in Mars soil, and lots of salt. Adding soda and lime to molten silica will produce the type of glass used for windows.

Or add alumina (Al2O3) back, along with magnesium oxide and calcium oxide (quick lime), but not sodium oxide. The result is aluminosilicate glass; the type used for fibreglass. Boric oxide (B2O3) and barium oxide (BaO) are normally added as well. If we find them in Mars soil, fine, otherwise don't worry about it.

Pyrex is used for laboratory glassware: test tubes, beakers, flasks, etc. It's made with 81% silica, 12% boric oxide, 4.5% sodium oxide, and 2% alumina. I suspect the alumina is just because they couldn't remove it from the silica. But the key feature is boric oxide (B2O3), aka borate, aka boron oxide.

Boron has been found on Mars. This article was published June 10. Boron found in veins of clay in a Martian meteorite.
Martian Clay Contains Chemical Implicated in the Origin of Life, Astrobiologists Find

Sojourner was the tiny rover on Mars Pathfinder. Its Alpha-Proton-Xray-Spectrometer (APXS) instrument was supposed to analyze elements in rock and soil. The proton mode didn't work, so it had no way to analyze light elements like hydrogen, lithium, carbon, oxygen, or boron. When Spirit and Opportunity were launched, there wasn't time to fix it, so they renamed the instrument Alpha-Particle-Xray-Spectrometer. For some reason it still wasn't fixed for Curiosity, so still no Proton mode. However, Curiosity has ChemCam, a laser that can measure light elements. It can measure boron. I can hardly wait for that data.

GW Johnson · 2013-06-11 16:53:05

Did any of y'all see the "mushroom building" concept I posted over at "exrocketman" a while back? Given a concrete substitute and a way to make glass in-situ, this sort of thing would work for both habitats and greenhouses, even in locations where burrowing into a hillside wasn't practical. See the article dated 1-26-13.

JoshNH4H: I haven't yet seen a presentation schedule for TMS convention. I dunno when I present during the event, not yet. But I sure do want to meet you, bobunf, midoshi, and anybody else, while I'm there. Do any of you plan to attend the banquet Sat nite?

GW

JoshNH4H · 2013-06-12 09:48:28

I wonder if there are other ways to make sodium hydroxide/HCl. Electrolysis is obviously extremely energy intensive. If the demand for strong acid is higher than the demand for strong base, I would expect that much of the imbalance will be filled with Sulfuric acid, because of the SO3 in the soil. Why waste energy when you don't have to, right? Actually, I think that the martian regolith would be pretty basic if one were to boil out the SO3 (mp=17 C, bp@1 atm=45 C). It might be worth looking into because of the huge energy savings. The procedure would look something like:

Pound regolith to powder
Heat to 35 C
Collect SO3 in 0 C cold trap
React SO3 with water to create sulfuric acid
Transfer the rest of the regolith to a different chamber. Add water.
Allow to sit until water pH stabilizes, then start extracting basic hydroxides by distillation at low pressure. Recycle water until negligible amounts of basic Hydroxides remain in regolith. Use "slag" which will be enriched in everything that is not an alkali metal for other purposes, such as Iron or Aluminium production.

This has the benefit of using cheaper thermal energy instead of expensive electrical energy (I would expect thermal to be 10x cheaper for temperatures below about 100 C.-- Concentrated Solar Power will be about 15% efficient plus require machinery beyond mirrors and heat pipes)

GW, I'll certainly take a look at that. I will be at the banquet, and Bob and his wife also plan to attend. I don't know about midoshi but I'll send him an email to see.

Edit: And if not, we can meet up for lunch or coffee or something!

JoshNH4H · 2013-06-13 23:13:43

GW-

I just read your blog post. We've been thinking very much along the same lines for structures. I hadn't thought about windows, particularly. My thoughts tended towards having regolith on the side, for radiation protection reasons. Seeing as the quantity of regolith atop the structure will reduce the radiation load to negligible-ish levels, given your proposed structure the majority of the radiation would actually come in through the sides. Now, cosmic rays are not unidirectional, though they are blocked the worst in the vertical direction. In any case, I would expect that the elimination of windows in favor of shielding in that direction would result in an approximate halving of radiation dosage within the enclosed area. I have no calculations or evidence to support this, and obviously it depends on the geometry of the building as well as the attenuation effects of the atmosphere, and any number of other factors.

I was also thinking that the supports would only be on the outside, and a truss would hold the regolith up in the center. Po-tay-to/Po-tah-to, really. Temporary supports could be used to hold the roof up before pressurization, and then removed when the structure is fully pressurized. Depressurization beyond a certain level would subsequently pose a structural hazard, but I'm not sure that this represents any additional mortality risk, beyond that already posed by significant depressurization. One would have to do a cost-benefit, of course; I suppose in that case one could still use the building afterwards, which is at least something.

I think it's also important not to discount the possibility of multi-story structures. Some stories could have windows and others could be shielded, meanwhile one wouldn't have to move as much regolith. By use of excavators and explosives, one could also imagine buildings that go down.

Midoshi does plan to attend the Banquet, by the way, so I look forward to seeing you all there.

GW Johnson · 2013-06-21 14:18:44

Hi JoshNH4H:

I'll be at the banquet with my wife. We'll be looking for all of you. Unless she makes me leave it at home, I'll be wearing my straw cowboy hat. Look for the old guy with the slim wife. I'm 63.

GW

JoshNH4H · 2013-06-21 20:22:39

Will do, for sure. I look forward to it

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-15 14:45:25

For GW Johnson ... did you meet JoshNH4H as the posts just above would indicate?

***
I'm bringing this topic back to life ahead of the presentation by RobertDyck, planned for March 12th at 2 PM Houston time, on Large Ship.

Recently, RobertDyck repeated a suggestion/idea he's published before ... I'd like to see definitive detail and robust calculations ...

The idea was to generate a magnetic field around Large Ship to direct charged particles through the central shaft of the Large Ship.

I'd like to see this idea developed as much as possible by March 12th.

We have no Electrical Engineers or Physicists in the active membership, but we have a procedure for admitting folks that works reasonably well. If you have the knowledge and skills to assist, and are willing to donate some time, please consider doing so.

In another topic, GW Johnson just made the same point he's made before ... slow travel through the Earth's Van Allen belt without robust radiation protection would lead to serious health damage.

The Large Ship is going to be operating out in open space for months at a time. it will carry some physical protection, but the dynamic magnetic field might be able to help even more, if it is a valid idea, and if it can be made to work on the scale of Large Ship.

For SpaceNut ... the ID of the post opened for reply is 6906, well within the range of re-scans by the repair process.

(th)

GW Johnson · 2022-02-15 17:43:49

Tom:

Yes, we met Josh and a couple of others for a couple of meals, at the 2013 convention in Boulder. That's where I gave the presentation on the ceramic composite heat shield material.

Josh used to post regularly in these forums, but I haven't seen anything from him in a while. Josh was technically trained.

The one referred to as "Midoshi" is another former poster on these forums. I haven't seen anything from him in while, either. He is definitely technically trained, being one of the investigators on the Maven orbiter about Mars.

Robert G. Clark was another who used to post on these forums Even his own blog site has been inactive for over 6 months now. I'm afraid something happened to him. He doesn't answer email either.

GW

SpaceNut · 2022-02-15 19:40:33

Midoshi is absent because he is working on the Maven orbiter and can not post to the forum.

Tom I am an electronic/ electrical engineer and more from 1980 in computer industry, networking and more all the way through to current activity for the Naval ship yard.

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-16 06:46:42

For GW Johnson re #37 .... Thank you for sharing your memories of meeting Josh in 2013 in Boulder! That is NOT all that long ago.

SpaceNut .... thanks for your recollection of Midoshi ...

The subject at hand here is the design of a magnetic shield for Large Ship .... I would imagine you could give the design a running start.

The amount of current to be flowed through the coils will depend upon the capability of a nuclear reactor that would be at the heart of Large Ship, as well as any solar power that could be collected during the voyage. The system should be designed to function entirely with the onboard power source, because orientation to gain maximum benefit from the Sun cannot be guaranteed. While the ship is in undisturbed flight, it will (if all goes well) be aligned with the axis of rotation parallel to and aligned with the center of the Sun. However, when the Large Ship is in orbit around the Earth or Mars, or any other Solar System body, the Sun will not be available (depending on orbit) for up to half the time.

Your design will need to perform without superconducting materials. Superconducting materials are certainly nice, and you may be able to design so that the materials you chose can superconduct if temperatures are low enough, but you can't count on such conditions. The radiation protection system you design needs to function at Mercury and Venus as well as at Mars or beyond.

Your design will need to take into account the warning of RobertDyck, that charged particles will be directed/deflected into the center shaft of Large Ship. That would imply to me that the center shaft of Large Ship might not be a good place to take shelter, if the shield is doing it's job.

This topic is back awake and ready for some serious engineering.

If there is anyone in the forum readership who would like to join SpaceNut in tackling this important challenge, please see the Recruiting topic for procedures.

***
For SpaceNut ... I would like to see a rough outline of a project plan for this aspect of the Large Ship design, if you can find a few moments from hour hectic schedule of work, family and NewMars duties.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-16 10:35:34

For SpaceNut re Magnetic shield....

As you work on your design, please keep the proximity of the human travelers in mind. Your coils of wire will (presumably) run just outside the hull of the habitat ring. Whatever magnetic force they generate is going to radiate out from the coils with equal strength in all directions.

That means full strength of the generated field will seek to penetrate the living space of the human travelers. It would seem reasonable (to me at least) to plan to (somehow) protect the humans (and their equipment) from the magnetic field you will be generating to protect them from radiation.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-02-17 19:49:16

Coils would fail for a number of reasons so the first line of defense would need to be with passive items that we will need anyways shaped to do the function along with select materials which do the same. These are the water and waster walls or tanks that can be shaped to block quite a bit and as such we would need less of an outer field to be made. The inner walls for chloroplast and other algae products would also be used to do more internal blocking.

Next a ring of magnets placed into tubes that circle the ship will be the beginning of another layer of a passive system that does not fail. Several circumference rings would be created to boost the distance and strength that it would collectively create. These can be sheet form or cylinder which create the field. Much like a fusion reactor going with fields that follow only one direction of our ring shape is not going to be enough so we would want to do the same around the ring decks going at a cross direction to the circumference rings.

Next we can add field boosting coils of wire wrapped around these and use DC, AC, RF energies with in different magnetic field rings. The big thing is determining the amount of field we still need to reduce the long term exposure levels.

We should look to see what the ISS levels are and then determine if that is enough.

We have a main topic with looks at this mega-sphere creation.

Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-18 06:22:34

For SpaceNut re #41

Thanks for the link to the 2012 topic, in which RobertDyck, you, Void and even GW Johnson considered the potential of generating a magnetic field for Mars.

In comparison, generating a magnetic field for Large Ship should be ** much ** easier.

That does'nt mean it will be easy, because (to the best of my knowledge (which is admittedly limited)) humans have never attempted something on this scale before.

I would like to point out your opening line.

Your opening line predicts failure.

We do not need to start our project here by planning to fail.

We can look about us and see myriad systems that are working.

At the beginning, each and every one of those went through a period of failure.

It is normal for humans (and probably other creatures) to fail in their first attempts to accomplish something.

How can a simple coil fail? There are millions of electric motors and millions of transformers and probably billions of chokes in existence in the world.

If there were was ever a time when a simple coil failed, we are long past that time.

I think it is safe to assume that a simple coil, wrapped around the hull of the Large Ship habitat would work just fine.

Please design a coil for that location and compute the deliverable magnetic field given X amount of current.

There is ** plenty ** of sunlight available for solar cells, but the coil should be driven by a reliable nuclear power source as the primary source of power.

Solar cells can be enlisted to take the load off the reactor when the Ship is oriented so that solar power is available.

The magnetic shield needs to operate reliably regardless of the orientation of Large Ship, or the location with respect to a body it might be orbiting.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-18 06:44:25

For all interested in the subject of dynamic radiation protection for Large Ship:

RobertDyck has provided the dimensions of the Large Ship habitat to be protected.

It is 19 meters wide and 238 meters in circumference.

An engineering design for a dynamic magnetic shield will show:

1) Type of conductor to be used (material/composition)
2) Gauge of conductor to be used
3) Number of turns to be wound, so length of coil
5) Resistance to be expected for that length of the given conductor
6) Current required to push through the resistance to deliver the required field
7) Characteristics of the field (a graph will show a plot of current vs field strength)

The results should stand up to inspection by professional electrical engineers who may be in the NewMars audience.

The results should stand up to inspection by professional electrical engineers who most certainly ** will ** be in the NSS audience.

The results are needed before March 12th, so that RobertDyck can integrate them into his presentation.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-18 09:30:03

For SpaceNut re design of magnetic radiation deflection system for Large Ship.

I see no reason why this topic should be unable to deliver a specification for hardware and equipment needed for this service.

The forum now has a repository (thanks to Dropbox) where work products can be stored. We no longer are limited to the flow-under-the-bridge nature of the forum environment. Dropbox is not the same as Google Docs. Those are two completely different companies.

Your ID (rejected by Google) should be accepted by Dropbox.

As soon as you provide a green light, i will attempt to create a folder for you in the NewMars Dropbox account.

You will be able to generate links to your files and publish them in the NewMars forum.

The work product I am looking for is a specification for a set of hardware (wires and equipment) to provide robust protection against ionized radiation (including Cosmic Ray strength iron nuclei).

If you can solve the Cosmic Ray problem, you will have simultaneously solved the Solar Ejection problem.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-02-18 19:06:09

The first problem for the use of wire is resistence of it for the guage per foot of it being used.
https://physics.info/electric-resistance/
Next is the temperature coefficient of wires resistence that changes with increasin temperature that limits the power and reduces the field strength.
https://www.cirris.com/learning-center/ … -of-copper

So lots of turns means lots of power but also lots of heat generated in these coils that only can get cooled in the shade of the ring that is hidden by the ring from the sun. Which means the suns radiation is still penetrating the sunside of the field as its the weakest of point in a coil design.

The magnetic flux which a wire produces is via the amperes and turns which it can have minus all the power losses in the conductor. its those lines that we are trying to create
Magnetic flux density webers per metre2 B = Φ /Area
Electric flux density coulombs per metre2 D = C/Area

The Earth's magnetic flux density is about 4 lines per sq inch, or 0.5 Gauss, or 5*10-5 Tesla.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_magnetic_field
notice the directions which are not just in one which are needed to create the field.

A wire produces the field in this manner.

Earths field is not just a simple dipole but is similar to the solenoid
f-d%3Ac87a42048b3fc2fb3da91e8cf29e0130d84d7a5e4017e36922ef5370%2BIMAGE_THUMB_POSTCARD_TINY%2BIMAGE_THUMB_POSTCARD_TINY.1

Notice that this coil would wrap around the ships ring from inner to the outer with the coil being interupted by the tunnels. The field is not a dipole. It would loop around the ring.

If we lay the wire around the flat circumference sides the field then is produced like the dipole.

This double field overlap is the key but the heat from the sun kills part of it.

That is why I proposed using passive magnetic rings with much smaller coils wrapped around them in the cold side of the ships ring shape.

https://www.nap.edu/read/24993/chapter/4
The Space Radiation Environment and Its Effect on Electronics
National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. 2018. Testing at the Speed of Light: The State of U.S. Electronic Parts Space Radiation Testing Infrastructure. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press. https://doi.org/10.17226/24993.

http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2015/ph241/clark1/
Radiation Shielding Techniques for Human Spaceflight

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/lunar/strategi … 213688.pdf
Revolutionary Concepts of Radiation Shielding for Human Exploration of Space

https://aip.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.5109560
Radiation Shielding Using Magnetic Fields

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … 21SW002749

Beating 1 Sievert: Optimal Radiation Shielding of Astronauts on a Mission to Mars

Earth has a his as caused by the RF satelites that circle it pushing on the plasma that circles the earth. Its that plasma which is held in place by earths field which is by the standard of distance is very close to the size of the ship and is not that far from it.

https://news.mit.edu/2014/plasma-shield … ation-1126
Researchers find that Earth’s “plasmaspheric hiss” protects against a harmful radiation belt.

Next up is the large ship power source which I am re-reading now for RobertDyck's but kbd512 was nuclear rtg's and lots of them.

Nuclear power was meantioned a few times for propulsion and not for powering the ship.

Kbd512 intend to use SCO2 for power transfer from the RTGs to Brayton cycle gas turbines to generate electric power

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-18 19:41:33

For SpaceNut re #45

First, thank you for your thorough exploration of the subject at hand, and for the helpful images you included.

One detail might have escaped your notice, with everything else going on in our very busy forum ... The Large Ship is intended to fly with the central axis aligned with the center of the Sun. What this means is that the Sun's rays will NOT impact the floor of the Habitat.

The Sun's rays will impact the end of the ring, and there is going to be lot's of radiation protection at that end of the ship.

I would expect the hull to be quite cold. It will be radiating energy to space, unless insulation is packed on the outside of the hull, as recommended by GW Johnson in recent posts, and even then, the only way the floor will be heated will be from the interior of the vessel.

I would expect RobertDyck will be designing insulation into his concept, to prevent loss of heat to the deep cold of Space.

Therefore, it seems (to me at least) reasonable to expect the magnetic shield wires will be cold, and they may be quite cold, depending upon where they are located with respect to the insulation.

I've only had a chance to scan your long post .... did you arrive at a design to produce a magnetic field strong enough to fend off fully ionized iron nuclei?

(th)

RobertDyck · 2022-02-18 21:50:23

PDF file from University of Washington: Radiation shielding produced by mini-magnetospheres

The deployment of a mini-magnetosphere (or magnetic bubble) around a spacecraft has recently been proposed as a means to couple energy from the solar wind to provide in-space propulsion. In so doing mini-magnetospheric plasma propulsion (M2P2) would have both high specific propulsion and high thrust while requiring only modest (kW/unit) power levels to sustain the mini-magnetosphere. In order to obtained sufficient thrust for a manned mission, the mini-magnetosphere is anticipated to extend out to several 100 km to a few thousand km in radius, possibly supported by several units using a total of ~ 100 kW. At this size, the mini-magnetosphere has the potential for not only deflecting solar wind particles, but also the energetic particles that comprise galactic cosmic rays (GCRs) and solar energetic particle (SEP) events. These energetic particles provide a significant radiation hazard for any extended manned mission in space. This paper presents initial design characteristics for using an M2P2 system as a radiation shield. Each unit consists of a magnet with a radius of 10 – 20 cm, with strength of a few kilogauss to possibly a Tesla. Embedded in each magnet is a plasma source that is used to expand the magnetic field. It is shown that the magnetic field fall off approaches 1/r as the plasma energy density approaches the magnetic energy density. The effectiveness in shielding as determined by the integral of B×dr can be more than an order of magnitude larger than the magnet by itself. Pulsed operation of the system is used to prevent modification of spacecraft trajectory and prevent build up of radiation belts within the mini-magnetosphere.

SpaceNut · 2022-02-19 09:24:22

ions of iron are magnetic so they would if not passing a field be pulled to it and trapped on the magnets surface if a permanent and if alternating it would move with the fields movement.

What I was telling others that we need the magnetic field at a distance from the hull and that is so to make that time possible. I was proposing that the coil be wrapped around the permanent magnet ring so that it could cause a fluctuating field to be made and that the field would move via that current which we can induce into the ring of magnets that are contained in a tube supporting structure.
By wrapping the coils around each ring in the cold side of the large ship we get the benefit of being able to passively cool the coil as well as to put more energy into that coil which as we pulse current into it makes a field that not only moves but is stronger. It would create a spiral graph looping image to the fields effect with overlaps not only for the rotation of the ship but from the pulse timing that we can control.

The loops that follow the circumference

the loops that would wrap around the hull

with both this gives the earth field appearance.
The Spin Torus Energy Model and Electricity

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-19 10:19:23

For SpaceNut .... Thanks for the substantial contributions to this topic (#48 following up on #47 by RobertDyck)

it should be possible for you (with others if available) to build a working model on Earth, to show how a variety of wrappings would perform. The images you showed us provide a hint of possible avenues of research.

Hints and images are not sufficient, impressive as they are.

We need working models with real electrons circulating in real wires.

It is possible to produce ions on Earth, and these can be directed at a working model in vacuum. It should be possible to observe the performance of the coil, if the right gas is chosen to be evacuated from the chamber. Since there are gases that fluoresce under stimulation by electrons and other charged particles, it should be possible to observe the performance.

In addition, there should be a way to measure the flow of ions through the center of the Large Ship central shaft.

It may turn out that a plug of ordinary water could collect all that cosmic debris in the central shaft.

Thus, over time, the Large Ship could collect a bounty of atoms of various kinds that are zooming through space from every direction.

Good work all! Please keep up the momentum.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2022-02-19 12:47:42

Actually, the abstract of the paper I linked suggests pulsed operation to prevent modification of the spacecraft's trajectory, and to prevent radiation belts. But those radiation belts just make the magnetosphere stronger. And although the modification to trajectory is slight, it can be integrated with the navigation system. Both Robert Zubrin and the authors at University of Washington have written about Mini-Magnetosphere Plasma Propulsion (M2P2). That uses the magnetosphere as a sail to use solar wind as propulsion. It's insanely weak, trying to use it as primary propulsion would be insanely slow, but rather than fighting it, just integrate the small thrust with navigation. Leaving the system on should be less power consuming than constantly powering up, and a consistent radiation shield would be safer than just turning it off at regular intervals.

Mini-magnetosphere will be apple shaped: pinched in at the poles. This will accelerate trapped ions toward the magnet. If the magnetic field is axial with the ship, that means the engine and propellant tanks pointed straight at the Sun, taking most of the radiation. But some radiation will be drawn back in at the hub. Waste containers on the hub will provide shielding.

Ps. Hub and zero-G cargo hold must be vacated during SPE.

Image above: mini-magnetosphere experiment in vacuum chamber at CERN. This shows a plasma stream with magnetic field poles oriented into the stream, just as the Large Ship will.

Image above: schematic of mini-magnetosphere. Do we need a quartz tube passing through the axis of the ship? Or can this work with separate injectors at each pole?

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#26 2013-06-10 22:10:39

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#27 2013-06-10 22:20:01

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#28 2013-06-10 23:48:35

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#29 2013-06-11 07:09:35

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#30 2013-06-11 10:28:46

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#31 2013-06-11 16:53:05

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#32 2013-06-12 09:48:28

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#33 2013-06-13 23:13:43

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#34 2013-06-21 14:18:44

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#35 2013-06-21 20:22:39

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#36 2022-02-15 14:45:25

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#37 2022-02-15 17:43:49

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#38 2022-02-15 19:40:33

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#39 2022-02-16 06:46:42

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#40 2022-02-16 10:35:34

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#41 2022-02-17 19:49:16

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#42 2022-02-18 06:22:34

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#43 2022-02-18 06:44:25

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#44 2022-02-18 09:30:03

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#45 2022-02-18 19:06:09

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#46 2022-02-18 19:41:33

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#47 2022-02-18 21:50:23

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#48 2022-02-19 09:24:22

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#49 2022-02-19 10:19:23

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

#50 2022-02-19 12:47:42

Re: Space Radiation + counter measures

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