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#1126 2022-02-06 12:36:52

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #1125

Your March 12th booking is virtual.  I am confident it will go well.  The meeting location is set up with a large screen display, and there are several laptops on site to forward questions.  In addition, your talk should attract a significant virtual audience, or (at least) I am planning to (try to) pull some strings to publicize your presentation.

The ISDC .... I'd expect the organization to pay expenses if you are accepted as a speaker.

I trust you still have a passport (or the Canadian equivalent).

On the other hand, they may very well decide to go with virtual presentation.

My recommendation is submit the bid, and see what happens.

I served on the board of a NSS regional organization, and we paid expenses for out-of-town speakers like Dr. Zubrin. We saved money where we could by inviting local talent, and fortunately our region has a LOT of local talent.

(th)

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#1127 2022-02-06 13:05:24

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

The issue isn't money. My mother passed away in March 2021. I... if only... Anyway, I have inheritance. I'm not really rich, but can afford stuff. The issue is government regulations. There's a reason there's a major protest. On January 15 the federal government changed COVID regulations to be so draconian that there's now major trucker protest. Truckers have blocked roads in much of Ottawa, and a land border crossing between the US and Alberta. Here in my city there are trucks in front of the Legislature. The government expects protesters to back down, but they can't. Government has gone too far. Our federal government is a minority, if all the opposition parties vote non-confidence against the government, it will force an election. The government doesn't want to back down, doesn't want to listen to voters. No minority ever lasts the full term, eventually opposition will force an election, but the last election was just September 20. Minorities usually last 18 to 24 months. Last one lasted 23 months. The Conservative party is the other major party, they would love an election as soon as possible. The BQ could be convinced to vote non-confidence. So the NDP is propping up the current government. NDP is blatantly socialist, how long will this have to go on before they stop supporting them?

Bottom line: regulations passed January 15 mean I'm not allowed to board an aircraft in Canada. Not even a domestic flight, and that is impacting my job. If I did get to the United States somehow, I wouldn't be allowed back into Canada. Beginning to understand why there's such a protest?

Yes, I do have a Canadian passport. Last time I renewed, I did so for 10 years. So mine doesn't expire until December 2028. Doesn't matter, that isn't the issue. New COVID rules are the issue. That's what the big protest is about.

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#1128 2022-02-06 13:40:33

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #1127

Thanks for explaining the dilemma folks up your way are dealing with.  I've noticed the news about trucker protests, in the background of news about Putin's antics in Ukraine, and Xi's antics in Beijing, and whatever else is going on.

Hopefully whatever this is will have resolved itself by April.  My recommendation is to complete the application so you are at least in the queue.  If the solution is a virtual presentation, you will by then be a veteran. 

Presence at the event would b e better of course, for a variety of reasons.

The impact on your work is more immediate.  I can't imagine why you wouldn't be able to get onto a plane,. but (obviously) there must be a reason, which I don't need to know.

Have you considered telepresence?  Your employer could (presumably) send a telepresence unit to the customer site, and you could supervise an onsite worker to meet the mission objectives.

Heck ... they could even send a telepresence unit to ** all ** sites, and you could dial in as needed.

They would save money and get faster service.

We are in "Large Ship"

Telepresence would help greatly to expedite assembly of Large Ship using parts imported from Earth to LEO.

You could become an expert in ** that ** field if you can persuade your employer to convert to telepresence for remote support.

(th)

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#1129 2022-02-06 14:34:25

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

The application form wants my job title, employer, and short bio. I could puff. I'm a contractor, just a computer technician. Registered with a few services, although one provides most of my work. I also have a registered company in my name. I did bid on NASA contracts, got on their short list a couple times, but it's been years and never landed anything. I still receive notifications from NASA and CSA. Could call myself President of my own aerospace company.

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#1130 2022-02-06 18:02:37

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #1129

How about Moderator of NewMars.com/forums?

You've had that title for a number of years.

It is both accurate and reliable. 

For the ISDC audience, a connection to Mars Society will (or at least ** should ** ) make your application stand out.

Employer .... self seems accurate.

bio ... you've written short posts about parts of your bio ... they probably total up to a modest length book.

(th)

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#1131 2022-02-07 13:16:38

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Done

Robert Dyck

self employed

Ardeco Aerospace

A computer software developer since February 1981. Rose to systems analyst, technical architect, software development specialist, etc. As a preschool child, Rob watched the space race of the 1960s: the last 2 missions of Mercury, all of Gemini, and all of Apollo including the Moon landing. Rob wanted to be an aerospace engineer, to design the spacecraft for the first human mission to Mars. But there was no aerospace engineering program in the province of Manitoba in Canada. Rob did join the Mars Society in when it was first founded, did not attend the founding convention, but did found a local chapter in Winnipeg. Rob has attended many Mars Society conventions since 2002. He established a startup company registered with both NASA and the Canadian Space Agency. Has bid on several contracts, did get on NASA's short list twice, but never landed a contract. Rob has been a leader on the Mars Society internet forum since 1999, and is currently a moderator.

address
phone
email

Large Scale Colonization Ship

This talk will be a Large Scale Colonization Ship, capable of carrying roughly 1,000 people to Mars. Advantages of a single large ship over a cluster of smaller ones, features required to carry that many settlers safely and in relative comfort. Many details of the ship will be covered. This has been discussed for 2½ years on the Mars Society forum, and a half-hour presentation was given at the Mars Society virtual convention last fall. This will be cover more detail.

Mars Exploration and Settlement
Space Business
Space Settlement

https://youtu.be/ZoWi9pHfJ2E

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9124

Available any day
(picture of me in a suit and tie from my sister's wedding in 2014)

Ok, I still have that suit, but would have to lose weight.

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#1132 2022-02-07 19:44:44

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,331

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Solid representation for sure.

A large ship is not just to hold a large crew and passengers to and from mars but to allow for those working to be able to do so on the trip in either direction. A connection to AG is that the people on board will sustain a healthy condition unlike the ISS long term exposure to micro gravity. The ship has many other such safety features with in its design so as to reduce exposure to radiation and to provide a healthy nutritionist diet form the onboard greenhouse use..

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#1133 2022-02-08 11:52:10

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck .... submarine meal planning would seem likely to me to provide a potentially fruitful input for Large Ship meal planning.

If you are (fortunate?) enough to have young person in your audience March 12th, they may be curious to know how 1060 people packed into the equivalent of a passenger railroad train with no fresh air will deal with gas production by the human digestive system.

Surely meal planners for six month submarine cruises must anticipate potential problems and avoid them.

A robust air cleansing system is needed in both environments.

Here is a link to a post where the dimensions of the proposed Large Ship Habitat Ring are reported:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 98#p172998

The area computed for Large Ship Habitat is 4522 square meters.
The area computed for a standard (American) Pullman car is (on the order) of 36.8 square meters

Using this value as a guide for estimating the number of railroad cars to match the floor plan of the Large Ship habitat, I get 123.

The number of passengers per car (in this situation) would be between 8 and 9.  However, in a real train, some of the space would be consumed by meal preparation and serving activities.  Never-the-less, it should be possible for the average person to imagine being on a 122 car passenger train for six to eight months. 

(th)

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#1134 2022-02-08 15:20:36

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Odour control is by activated charcoal. It absorbs organic compounds including body odour, bad breath, and flatulence. The activated carbon is "baked out" periodically. ISS vents that into space. I suggest bubbling that effluent through water to absorb it, then filtering the water, then finally sending the concentrated water with bad smells down the sewage pipe to central life support. There it will be used as fertilizer for hydroponics.

Every cabin will have CO2 sorbent and odour control in the life support wall of the cabin.

Yup, we will need a nutritionist to help us design a healthy diet that people will enjoy eating, which uses food that can be produced on Mars, and minimizes flatulence.

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#1135 2022-02-08 16:03:57

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

I posted before that raising livestock on Mars will be difficult and expensive. Hogs eat the same food people do, just less processed. Cattle eat hay, but a feed lot "finishes" them by slowly changing their feed to grain and vegetables. It's a very rich diet for cattle, but my point is the fodder to "finish" cattle is the same as food we eat. The point of "finishing" is to flush out the taste of dry hay from cattle meat before they're slaughtered, so they don't taste "wild". But A&W has been advertising they use beef from cattle just fed grass. Anyway, Mars doesn't have an atmosphere, so no fields of grass. Very large greenhouses will have to be built to grow all the hay. And cattle cannot be left in a plastic film greenhouse, they will bite/hoof or just use their horns to get out. As soon as the film is punctured, it will decompress, killing the animals. Livestock require a hard wall pressurized barn. With recycling air and water, including manure. And odour control in a barn is dramatic. In 2005-2007 I worked for a company that manufactured equipment to automate hog barns. One day the boss sent me with another employee to check on a barn that was used as a beta test site for equipment. Hundreds of hogs, about knee height. I didn't know they had perpetual diarrhea. And I had to eat lunch in that smell. sad

Then there's how to get animals to Mars. I have said, imaging a freaked-out cow or hog in your space capsule with you as the vehicle undergoes acceleration during launch, zero-G in Earth orbit, acceleration during TMI, cruise to Mars, zero-G on approach to Mars, and high G during atmospheric entry. At the time I meant something the size of Mars Direct, but even SpaceX Starship couldn't do it. The Large Ship? Well, we could convert part to a livestock transport, but that would be a very expensive way to transport livestock.

Chickens: same problem with freaked out birds. I have suggested sending fertilized chicken eggs. Put them in an incubator on Mars, or turn a knob to convert the fridge to an incubator. Yes, you can refrigerate live fertilized chicken eggs, but the temperature is not as cold as a kitchen fridge. However, maximum is 6 weeks, and the closer you get to that maximum, the fewer eggs will be viable. 6 weeks is not long enough to get to Mars. So one idea was to cut open the egg, remove the embryo, freeze it in liquid nitrogen. The rest of the egg could be frozen in a regular fridge. Upon arrival at Mars, thaw and put the embryo back in the egg. Tape cut section of shell back on, ensuring most of the shell is not covered in tape. Chicken egg shells are porous, they let air through. The membrane inside the shell exchanges O2 & CO2 with air. But one member on this site (forget who now) suggested an experiment to freeze the whole egg in liquid nitrogen. I was concerned because freezing something large produces ice crystals, which can slice cell membranes like a knife. But that member suggested an experiment to just do it, see if fertilized chicken eggs can survive. Ok, worth trying. If it works, we can get chickens to Mars that way. They're small enough that a dedicated chicken barn might be justified. Would be justified for a Mars city of several thousand.

I also talked about putting calves into hibernation. There has been some research into hibernation. One researcher put deer, elk and moose into hibernation. With 80ppm hydrogen sulphide gas, reduced O2, increased CO2, and reduce ambient temperature to about +2°C. Works with mice and rats, but most researchers have had difficulty with larger mammals. The trick this researcher did was replace half blood volume with saline. That's salt water with the same salt concentration as blood. 10% of the animals died when attempting to awaken them. Of those that survived, 30% had permanent brain damage. They just stood around, did nothing but eat, sleep, and shit. You can't do this to humans, but can to livestock. If 10% of the calves die upon arrival on Mars, then settlers get a veal meal. If livestock are inactive, then they're easier to keep in a confined barn. The reason for sending calves it to minimize launch mass. Send calves just barely weaned from milk, because the first herd will not have milk on Mars.

But still, what is the ratio of greenhouse area to calories of food for settlers? Some people point out calories per unit mass of meat is greater than vegetables, but cattle need hay. When you work out total greenhouse area for fodder per calories, I believe a vegan diet is more efficient.

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#1136 2022-02-08 18:38:51

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck (and all forum readers) re #1134 and #1135

Thank you for your detailed answers to several questions that have already come up, and are likely to reappear ....

SearchTerm:Flatulence management of on Large Ship (and in enclosed spaces on Mars or anywhere)
SearchTerm:hog
SearchTerm:chicken
SearchTerm:cow
SearchTerm:cattle

As an observation, injection of a medically safe substance to cause loss of consciousness for a brief time is a common practice in wild life tagging. I expect such a procedure would make perfect sense before a creature is lifted off planet.

The Large Ship concept would most certainly work well for transport of livestock from Earth to Mars.  On Earth, livestock transportation is a specialty. Vehicles designed for transport of livestock are NOT also used for transport of humans (except in rare cases).

The same would most certainly be true in space transport.  The basic Large Ship design will be replicated thousands of times for all sorts of purposes, in coming years, just as has been true for 18 wheeler truck trailers and all manner of railroad cars.

SearchTerm:egg Shipment of to insure viability of embryo upon arrival

(th)

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#1137 2022-02-08 18:49:43

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,331

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#1138 2022-02-08 18:50:29

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Two experiments that can be done on Earth today:
1) freeze fertilized chicken egg in liquid nitrogen. See if it can be thawed and mature to hatching. Will the adult chicken be fertile, able to lay eggs?
2) put a calf in hibernation. Can it be kept in hibernation for 6 months, then revived. Will there be health impacts? Can a fertile cow and fertile bull mature from hibernation as a calf?

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#1139 2022-02-08 19:32:54

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

There are various vegan dishes. When I lived in Miami, some restaurants served a Cuban dish called Moros. That's black beans, cooked and mash, mixed with cooked rice. Traditional protein source: beans with rice. Black beans are supposed to produce the least flatulence.

An Egyptian dish called Koshari. That's lentils with macaroni and rice, with a spicy tomato sauce. Very tasty! Lentils are very high in protein, of all the legumes they're second only to soybeans. This dish uses 3 protein sources: lentil, rice, and macaroni is made with wheat.

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#1140 2022-02-09 14:57:43

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re March 12th presentation ...

The North Houston chapter gave me the link to the library where they were meeting prior to Covid.  I called the library and was advised to use the email link on their web site to contact the branch manager.  I wrote a short note, asking if they might be willing to put a brief announcement of your presentation on their bulletin board.  It seems unlikely to me that anyone will see the note (a) or (b) go to the trouble of attending, but at least we will have made the attempt.

Update at 20:55 local time.

I just signed off after working on the Google Doc for a while.  I ** definitely ** enjoyed working on this text!  I have offered a number of suggestions for images. I am thinking of high school age students in the audience, if my bid for support from the Harris County library is at all successful.

Images will help adults in the audience who are space enthusiasts but not necessarily familiar with science at any great depth.

There were some places were minor punctuation seemed appropriate.  The Canadian spelling showed up here and there, so for a US audience I allowed Google to make the changes it suggested. 

I put a "resume here> tag in the document.

(th)

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#1141 2022-02-10 00:41:07

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Tom edited my document to add suggested images. One was an image of "ISS pre-breathing chamber". Well, they don't have a chamber, they just wear an oxygen mask while doing work in ISS. One activity is to jog on the treadmill while wearing an oxygen mask. Here's an image of a Canadian astronaut in "a pre-breathe exercise in the Quest Airlock" of ISS.
794px-Prebreathe.jpg?20100419061036

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#1142 2022-02-10 02:08:26

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

I also set my spell checker to Canadian English. So words like vapour are spelled with a "u".

Tom added a comment that a bidet is controversial. Really? A Frenchman invented the bidet, but it was a separate appliance. A Japanese company integrated the bidet as a seat on a normal toilet. The brand name is "Washlet", but it's just a bidet seat on a flush toilet. When using this, no you don't use toilet paper. No you don't use a towel. You wash your bottom with a stream of water. Some models have a heater so the water is warm, some don't. Controls on the side of the toilet aim the water stream. Some models have a warm air blower that works like a hand dryer in a public washroom. One friend of mine said he used the shower hand wand to wash his bottom, and didn't bother drying before pulling his pants up. The moisture on his bottom dried quickly enough that he didn't consider it a problem. I would use the warm air dryer.

Mars does not have trees. No trees, no toilet paper. That should be too hard. But this toilet uses vacuum desiccation to recover moisture from feces, as well as the water from the bidet. Once dry the feces are pulverized in a grinder that works (and looks) like a garburator. Result is a powder that can be stored. Mars will use the powdered feces are organic fertilizer. Toilet paper would get tangled around the grinding head, jamming the garburator.

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#1143 2022-02-10 02:33:33

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

No, there's no equipment room beneath the feet of residents. The habitation ring is the bottom level. Beneath their feet is the hull. Beneath that, outside in space are radiators. Each cabin has life support equipment, designed so it can operate in a simplified fashion independently. However, normal operation means several things are transported from cabins to "central life support" for further processing. There will be a pipe with concentrated urine, another with powdered feces, and another with sewage. "Sewage" is the stuff filtered out of water. That sewage will be piped to central life support, on the same level as greenhouses. There bacteria will break it down so it can be used as fertilizer in hydroponics. In the paragraph with your request for clarification, I mentioned water filtration. To ensure water is filtered quickly, and to simplify equipment in the life support wall for each cabin, the water processing assembly won't be quite as efficient as on ISS. Rather than filtering water to potable water, it will be grey water. "Potable" means water than can be put in a pot, it can be used for cooking, or more to the point it's drinkable. "Black" water is what goes down a standard flush toilet on Earth. "Grey" water is filtered, but not quite ready to drink. I'm saying the cabin filtration system will produce "grey" water, which looks like clean water but not yet ready to drink. The water wall will have a big bag or bladder to hold the water. The bladder will have 2 pockets: potable and grey. So grey water from the cabin systems will go into the pocket in the water wall for grey water.

Let me give an example. The shower is a recycling shower. It has a cyclonic water filter. Have you seen TV ads for a Dyson brand vacuum cleaner? The one with the single big ball instead of wheels? That, but for water instead of air. After the cyclone, the water is filtered with a traditional filter. Then the water is directed back to the shower head. This means 75% of what goes down the shower drain comes right back out the shower head. This greatly reduces water consumption, and energy needed to heat the water. What's filtered out will be concentrated soap, body oils, hair oil, and anything else you need to wash off. That goes to the water processing assembly. That will filter water to become grey water. The grey water goes to the grey water pocket of the water wall. As you take a shower, you drain water from the potable water pocket of the water wall, and that water ends up in the grey water pocket. So total volume of water in the water wall remains constant. That grey water is not quite ready to drink. You could drink it, you just wouldn't want to. On the roof of a pressure compartment of cabins, there will be an equipment box. This equipment box will appear as a big block on the floor of the greenhouse or observation room of the second level. The equipment box will have compressors for air conditioning, batteries to store electrical power, oxygen bottles for emergency oxygen, as well as water filtration equipment to filter grey water to potable.

I guess you could make water filtration in each cabin sufficiently comprehensive that it could do it all. I'm just worried about how big that equipment would be. By sharing final filtration with all cabins for one pressure compartment, it should reduce total equipment.

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#1144 2022-02-10 07:04:28

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #1143

An Analog Large Ship will need to have a first floor for equipment to support the habitat floor above.

An Analog large Ship will (presumably) have a top floor dedicated to green house activities.

There is no need to cram all the equipment to support the cabins in the cabin space.

The space where you are planning to put 1000 people is already crammed with cabins, bedding and all manner of other equipment.

Your Blender drawings of the Habitat Floor will allow you to think through where you want to put equipment.

It appears i need to remind you that I created images of the layout of the Large Ship habitat.

You never acknowledged those diagrams, but it is time for you to go back to look at them.

They are sized according to the specifications you provided.  They show that 1060 people are going to be elbow to elbow for six to eight months if all goes well, and for up to two years if they have to endure a wave-off at Mars.

(th)

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#1145 2022-02-10 09:48:53

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

This isn't an analog. The Mars Society has been far too obsessed with analogs, it's long past time to get the real thing done.

Support is on the second deck, above the passenger deck, not below. I had originally considered putting the block of support equipment on the roof, in a box surrounded by nothing but space. But experience on ISS has shown that all life support equipment requires constant maintenance. Any equipment on ISS located outside requires a space walk to maintain. So placing the equipment box within pressurized space allows easy access. Besides, the ship design started as just one deck, but has grown so most of the second deck is used.

As for total space, this ship is both large and small. Compared to an Apollo space capsule this is extremely big. Some astronauts complained Mercury was practically worn. Gemini has about as much space as a 2-seat sports car. Apollo has as much space as a mini-van, not including the LM. Each spacecraft is progressively larger, with more space due to mission requirements. More time on board requires more space. SpaceX Starship is dramatically larger compared to Apollo or Shuttle. However this ship is dramatically larger than Starship. Elon talks about Starship taking less than 6 months to go to Mars, but is that practical? A Hohmann transfer orbit takes about 10 months from Earth to Mars. Reducing time to 8.5 months takes a little more propellant, but it's so slight it's within margin for error. Reducing to 6 months takes 10% more propellant. Reducing time any further takes dramatically more propellant. And when you arrive at Mars, you have to shed that speed to enter Mars orbit. So if you reduced transit time too much, you have that much more speed to shed in order to enter orbit. But even if he can reduce transit time, Starship will spend months in space. Compared to Starship, the Large Ship is huge, spacious, luxurious. But compared to an ocean cruise liner it's cramped. The cabin for a SpaceX Starship will look like this...
SpaceX%2BStarship%2Binterior%2Bconcept%2Bby%2BDeepSpaceCourier%2B-%2B50%2BSleeping%2Bcabins.jpg

A cabin for SpaceX Starship is larger than a pod hotel aka capsule hotel, each passenger has full height from floor to ceiling while a pod is two pods high. However, it's still cramped. The Large Ship is larger, far more spacious. However, the cheapest tickets for Large Ship will be for a cabin with the same space as third class on a steam ship. More cabin space is available for more money.

Keeping life support equipment within pressurized space is for maintenance. Talk to kbd512 about maintenance. He will tell you every piece of equipment will require repairs and maintenance. In our last Zoom talk, he emphasized designing windows to be cheap and easy to repair or replace rather than highly durable. I'm looking at experience from ISS rather than an aircraft carrier because I've studied space hardware since I could talk. On ISS, life support equipment fails all the time, requires constant maintenance and repairs. Astronauts spend a great deal of their time doing maintenance. Equipment must be accessible. For Apollo, some of the life support equipment was in the Service Module where it was not accessible. This became a problem with Apollo 13. They analyzed what went wrong, it turned out to be the hydrogen fuel cell. It exploded. That explosion caused a leak in one of the oxygen tanks, and caused a lot of damage. You wouldn't want an explosion within the habitable volume, and wouldn't want any cryogenic tank in pressurized volume for temperature control as well as safety, but if some of the Apollo equipment were accessible it could have been repaired.

Yes, I made a change to move the equipment box on the roof from outside exposed to space to inside. The ship has 16 compartments with standard cabins, one compartment with crew cabins, and 1 compartment with luxury cabins. Each compartment will require its own equipment box. Some of those boxes will be within observation rooms, some within greenhouses. But that places them all within pressurized space making maintenance a lot easier.

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#1146 2022-02-10 10:44:31

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck .... it is encouraging to see the continued development and refinement of your ideas as we approach March 12th...

Please consider enlisting help to build Blender renderings of your ideas.  I can certainly help, if you provide templates and need them modified in some way.

Potentially, Void might be willing to provide a bit of his time and skill making impressive color graphics.  I haven't asked him, so don't know, but he has made significant progress since his first attempts not so long ago.

I'd like to see detailed cross section drawings of the Large Ship Habitat ... the location of floors and their height and contents has (obviously) evolved and I find myself well behind the curve at this point.  We need those drawings firmed up by well before March 12th.

I have provided to-scale renderings of cabins and personnel, and those are available as well, if they would assist with the presentation.

***

Your disrespect for Mars Analog efforts is not deserved.  All the personnel who have participated in those have gained experience and insight that would help them to decide if they have what it would take to make an actual expedition to Mars, let alone to settle there.

The Large Ship Analog Habitat will give you a chance to prove that there are Americans who would put up with the privation your current design would impose upon 1060 people for six to eight months.  It makes no sense to compare Apollo, Gemini or Mercury (or even SkyLab) to Large Ship.

We are talking about 1060 people crammed into 123 railroad cars for six to 8 months.  That is 8 to 9 people in ** every ** car, 24x7 for half an Earth year.

Your concentration on hardware (appears to) mean that the effect of the proposed environment on human beings is receiving little or no attention.

I am bringing the full glare of the social aspect of this venture into sharp focus, because it will most CERTAINLY receive that attention when the audience hears the talk. 

(th)

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#1147 2022-02-10 12:59:36

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,809

Re: Large scale colonization ship

(th) has suggested I might be able to help just a little bit with some simple drawings that perhaps would do for the learning of children.

I do not very well understand much of this topic.  I have looked, but of course when someone has an obsession, then they know it inside-out and upside down, as I expect Robert does.

I can try to do something useful, but I will need to understand what might be needed/desired.

I keep my stuff simple, as I hope that with simple pictures and words, most concepts can be conveyed.  Beyond that I don't see reason for overkill.

I will be out most of the day.  Perhaps you guys should sleep on this.  Sometimes that is the better way.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-02-10 13:00:12)


Done.

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#1148 2022-02-11 13:30:51

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

I just received a response from NSS about presenting at ISDC. They have not yet decided whether to approve my presentation, however presentations will not be virtual or prerecorded.

In Canada, the trucker protest has expanded to every major city, and they've blocked not only the border crossing with the US in Alberta, but the Rainbow Bridge is also blocked. That bridge crosses from Ontario to New York State near Niagara Falls. The mayor of Ottawa wants draconian measures to shut down the protest, but the Prime Minister doesn't want extreme measures, he understands the constitutional right to protest. Although that's what he says, he's sending plain clothes RCMP (federal police) to create trouble, trying to trick protesters into doing something stupid that would justify draconian measures. The official opposition is calling for end to vaccine mandates. Alberta and Saskatchewan are ending COVID restrictions, and today the premier of Ontario announced he plans to end vaccine passports. News says the world has noticed Canada's trucker protest, and it's spreading across the world. I don't think our Prime Minister realizes how close this is getting to becoming a revolution. But politicians are backing down. We have a minority, if all opposition parties vote together then can overrule the government. Hopefully the vaccine mandates will end before ISDC.

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#1149 2022-02-11 13:52:49

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re ISDC...

Best wishes for a paid invitation!

Whatever the disturbances are right now will be resolved by May.

There are indications that this entire episode was inspired and is being paid for by an element of the US Population.

Please make sure you do not become part of the Canadian population who are taken in by this (apparent) interference in the culture of Canada.

(th)

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#1150 2022-02-11 19:30:45

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Void:
(ta) has asked you to draw some pictures. In post #44 I tried to estimate dining room size. That post includes a link to a website for restaurant layout and table sizing. I used the most compact because this is a spaceship. The main dining room will have 300 seats. Not tables, seats. The linked website says School Lunchroom / Cafeteria should have 9-12 square feet per seat, Banquet Room 10-11 square feet per seat. So I allocated 10 square feet per seat. That's total floor area including seat, table, space to walk between tables, etc. Could we draw the main dining room, showing it filled with people?

As an example, a booth would have a thin half-wall between one table and the next. Booth seats would be back-to-back with seats for the next booth. Floor area for one measuring from the back of the bench seat on one side to the back of the bench seat on the other side. Length is centre of the half-wall to centre of the floor between this table and the next. Then tile this for the dining room. How crowded will the room be?
booths_layout_and_spacing-1.jpg
53f3973a9bc9b9b3bafa2824f50ae8e8.jpg
In the above, width A, length G+H+I. This booth seats 4 people, so can we keep the area down to 10x4=40 sq.ft? If A=66"= 5.5', and G=36"=3', H is zero, and G=36"=3', then area = 5.5 x (3+3) = 33 square feet. Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

There will have to be floor area used for the buffet. With 300 seats, that means 3,000 square feet total for the main dining room.

I had envisioned something like the Royal Fork buffet restaurant here in Winnipeg, but with tables closer together. One feature is portable walls that can enclose portions of the dining room to create private rooms. Could we squeeze something like that? For one thing, we won't need a walled corridor to the cash register. The dining room will be free for all guests on the ship.
l.jpg o.jpg hqdefault.jpg 2402-rattlersden

::Edit:: Found a news article that reported this restaurant closed last December 21. (sniffle) So I can't go take pictures. All we have are these pictures, and video from the news article.
CTV News: Royal Fork Buffet closing after more than 30 years of business

Last edited by RobertDyck (2022-02-11 20:02:06)

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