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SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Large ship analog

The purpose of the exercise is to see if the vision of RobertDyck, to pack 1060 people into the volume given above for 8 months (let alone two years) is practical in the real world.  The vision started with a 1910 passenger vessel in the Atlantic Ocean trade.  At that time, it appears that people were willing to be transported in density that most humans would find unacceptable in 2022.

The test facility should be ** exactly ** the size and dimensions of the proposed Large Ship.

Everything that needs to be tested ** can ** be tested in an onshore(Earth based) facility.

Four parameters of the flight cannot be tested:
1) The gravity cannot be tested
2) the Coriolis effects of rotation cannot be tested
3) radiation cannot be simulated.
4) The Mars atmosphere cannot be tested

However, everything else that will impact the flight plan ** can ** be tested:
1) Air management (cleaning, CO2 removal, Oxygen replacement)
2) Energy management. While supplied from outside sources, every watt will be measured with precision
3) Food management. While supplied from outside sources, every gram will be measured with precision
4) Water management. While supplied from the outside if necessary, every gram will be measured with precision.
5) Waste management. Zero waste will be allowed to leave the facility
6) Human psychological health. To survive, everyone must be kept busy during every waking hour.

Participants would be able to bail out at any time.  It seems unlikely to me that the average person can survive this experience.

The US Navy (and all navies with submarines) are able to send crews to sea for upwards of 90 days at a time.  My understanding is that such crews are supplied with air, water, food, comfortable accommodations (though cramped) and a constant, never-ending demand for meaningful activity.

So far we have the major designs that we might implement into the analog features as brought forth later. These are not competing but working through to answer which would be a choice that meets a real large ships design for any allow philosophy.

Captain, 6 deck officers
Petty Officer, 4 sailors (janitor, cargo rigging & handling)
Chief steward, 1 steward for luxury cabin, 12 table waiters, 8 bedroom stewards (housekeeping), 12 cooks, 2 baristas.
Chief engineer, 8 engineering staff (electrician, plumber, etc)
Purser, Doctor & nurse
Total: 60

Which means all others are passengers that can do what ever they want for the total duration.

KBD512 has a different view on the ships crew and what it is.

Passenger comfort still involves crew welfare, so the Command Master Chief, Supply Officer, and Messing Officer are still required.

I forgot an additional role as well.  Every ship has a doctor onboard, often more than one, along with various Corpsman to care for the injured.

We had a trauma surgeon or flight surgeon, a doctor who acted as a general physician, an optometrist, a pharmacist, and a dentist.

Let's do a realistic head count here:

Command Staff
CO - Commanding Officer
XO - Executive Officer
CMC - Command Master Chief Petty Officer
OPSO - Operations Officer
COMMO - Communications Officer
RDO / Chief Engineer - Reactor Duty Officer or Engineering Officer

Medical Staff
Surgeon - A trauma surgeon, internal medicine surgeon, radiologist, neurosurgeon, and OBGYN as well would be minimally required
Physician - This person needs to be a highly trained clinician
Optometrist - Vision problems are quite serious
Dentist - Trying to go six months with a rotten or broken tooth won't work
Pharmacist - Even in the Navy, certain people are dependent upon medications, and even if you're not, you'll still need prescription drugs
Psychiatrist - This person could be the ship's Chaplain and frequently was
Head Nurse - assists surgeons during surgery, administers medications, takes vital signs
Corpsman - vaccinations, blood work, pap smears, treating minor injuries, much like an EMT (you typically need a good number of these people, but even then they do routine training to treat the wounded in case they're killed; we were taught to stabilize patients / check for injuries before moving them to medical / control bleeding- ABCs type stuff, bandage wounds, deal with poisoning, etc)

You do cross-training as a matter of normal business in the Navy, but that doesn't make you an expert on anything.  However, you're required to learn about all the systems aboard your ship, the roles that everyone else fills, etc.

Supply Staff
SO - Supply Officer; supply clerks / store keepers are responsible for movement of supplies on and off the ship
MO - Messing Officer; there are a host of messing specialists who prepare meals
Ship's Barber

only a few would be considered passengers

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Large ship analog

In the end both are on a ring style ship for how a mission might be controlled or of its command structure for the flight to mars.

You are correct th. that we would not be able to simulate all factors of a large ship built to house let along test the systems which we might try and an example of that is the biosphere projects as to how difficult it might be to do so.
Some factors have been test with smaller crew sizes but this would be different as there would be no outside other than space walk for repair in water tanks.

This post is about cabins to be constructed for occupancy by both passengers and crew on Large Ship:

Notes for NewMars Cabin dimensions comparison

The dimensions for a cabin for four people for the Large Ship design of RobertDyck are published in the Large Ship (Prime) topic

The dimensions of a typical bathroom in a typical house in a typical American city are:

5 feet wide
9 feet long
8 feet tall

These dimensions convert to metric scale as:

Wide: 1.524 meters
Long: 2.743 meters
Tall: 2.438 meters

A cabin in Large ship is proposed to hold four people, and to provide toilet facilities, including:

Toilet
Wash basin
Shower

It is possible for all NewMars readers (members and public alike) to compare the proposed Large Ship cable to a bathroom or other small room they might have available to measure.

(th)

That is due to the placement of a tub and on e the large ship we will have an enclosed shower as we need to contain any chance for free water vapor getting into the atmosphere where there is no suction to make sure we do not have it form later on in places that we do not want water.

RobertDyck has only a few tubes within the ship for common use and that will need the same sealing system to capture water vapor and droplets as well.

Arg! I was typing, tried to change tabs when the tab with this post closed! I have to retype the whole thing.

The shower will be 32" x 32". That's the smallest shower stall available on websites of home improvement stores. Yes, a house where I was a teenager had one that size. And some hotels for remote northern communities.

The washroom with toilet and sink will be the size of an airline washroom. Washrooms in standard cabins are small. Intention is the shower stall, toilet & sink (wash basin), and life support wall will fit within the space of a single bunk bed (two bunks). Obviously in luxury cabins they will be larger.

The back wall of the washroom will the side wall of a cabin. The washroom will open into the cabin. The toilet will back onto the back wall. Mounted on the back wall, right at the ceiling, will be a dehumidifier. A fan will blow air from the shower directly into the dehumidifier. Effluent from the dehumidifier will run into water processing assembly in the life support wall.

Is it practical to integrate the evaporator of an air conditioner with the dehumidifier?

The shower stall will have a transparent door, and one transparent wall. It will not be glass, but a durable and light-weight plastic; possibly polycarbonate. The reason is if furniture is configured as a studio single with a Murphy bed. The transparent shower stall makes it look like that space is part of the cabin, making the cabin appear larger. For a cabin with bunk beds, because multiple individuals will stay there, the transparent door and wall will be covered by a thin sheet of opaque plastic.

The shower door will open directly into the cabin. That way if one person is taking a shower, another can use the washroom. A small door at shoulder height will open directly from the shower stall to the washroom, just large enough to put an arm through to pick up a towel. So the person in the shower can dry off, and grab some clothes to put on before emerging from the shower stall.

A towel rack will be mounted on the washroom back wall above the toilet. The dehumidifier will be on the same wall above the towel rack. Hotel washrooms don't have a cupboard to store towels, instead they're stored on a towel rack mounted on the wall. A couple examples:

I also envision a medicine cabinet. I notice many homes don't have one now. That's a mirror above the sink (wash basin) mounted on a door with a shallow storage cabinet behind the mirror. They used to be made the same depth as the thickness of a wall stud, so they could be recessed into the wall. Still sounds like a good place to store washroom stuff.

tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,443

Re: Large ship analog

For SpaceNut re new topic ... Thanks for supporting this line of inqury within the NewMars structure...

Large Ship Prime is: Large scale colonization ship by RobertDyck

I'll add the dimensions information that is needed for architects who will (I hope) be designing the motel style building for the Large Ship Habitat Analog experience.

The habitat ring can be understood as a rectangular solid bent into a very large circle.

The dimensions of the Habitat Rim of the ship (as of 2020/10/10) are 19 meters wide by 238 meters long.

If it is stretched out on the ground, it is a rectangular solid, 19 meters wide, 238 meters long and 3(*) meters tall.

(*) The figure of 3 meters is an estimate for height. The actual value is posted in the Large ship topic.

Working from the prototype Large Ship description from the Large Ship topic, there would be:

1) Basement with equipment and stores of liquids of various kinds, plus gas processing equipment
2) Main floor with cabins and some free space
3) Top floor with green house topped by glass (or plastic) covers.
4) Outside storage for materials (such as food and water) that would be stored in the central shaft of Large Ship.

In-so-far as possible, the facility would be closed, so that recycling of materials could be practiced as much as possible.

However, unlike the Biosphere II experiment, there would be NO attempt to operate without flows from and to the outside world.

The whole point would be to provide an environment that is as close to a Large Ship in flight in order to determine if human beings exist who can tolerate being packed into such a small volume for six to eight months.

The facility would measure all flows of all materials with great precision, because when the Large Ship flies, and the full complement of passengers and crew are on board, there will be NO "outside" to fill in any gaps that may exist.

The time to find the gaps is while the entire system is safely on Earth.

Personnel recruited for this exercise would be permitted to bail out at any time.  Those who prove mentally and emotionally able to endure the crammed conditions for six to eight months would be automatically approved for a real flight.  On the other hand, having endured the most difficult conditions imaginable, those who complete the exercise may decide to never consider such an activity again.  Whoever is left is a candidate for a real flight.

Each facility would perform a "flight" once a year.

There could be as many facilities as funders are willing to support.

(th)

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Large ship analog

Depending on how many floors are to be with in the ring of the real AG unit we would design what is the earth floor as if its the outer shell centripetal force floor. For Roberts design we would want to make the light come in from the floor to simulate how the big ship has it with the mirror ceiling to reflect it back down on the crops. Keep the width of the ring being the width of the floor area.

One would move in from the outer location towards the center of the real ship as being the next story on a ring design using vertical ladders to simulate the reducing gravity between the floors as you move towards the ships center.

The tunnels from that upper deck would connect to a simulated starship that is in the center. One could simulate the conditions of a no AG flight with in it as its storage and minimal use of walking vertically by doing crawls until you get towards the simulated gravity floors.

Something else that could be done is to create the 2 design on competing halves of the ring that we make to test out the crew with passenger cruise ship versus the all crew run ship. Each half can have the particular layout of design implemented.

Many drills can also be run from accidents to meteor shows course avoidance ect...

Your art is simular to the build that we might work to

(th)

The ring floor rather than being the side wall where we would feel the AG will need to be turned 90' to the center since we are on earth but we would still do a layout in a ring configuration.

iso grid style hull panels

Which allows for the outside to be welded together with the internal work inside a pressurized area

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Large ship analog

The floor for the design will match that of the ring width 19 metres.
each vertical floor to be 2.4 metre (8 foot) ceilings
simulated ring diameter is for the inside 37.76 metre radius from centre of rotation to surface of the vertical wall.
the space ring would be 56 meters radius to the outer shell
corridors 1.5 metres wide

So the height to simulate floors would be 56 - 37.76 = 18.24 but there will be about a meter for all of the wiring and pipes plus simulated water blatters so we will end up with 5 floors of overall to build upward.

we are trying to simulate building round shapes.

Thanks too for noting the potential value of the Large Ship on-Earth Analog Test facility to help to prove capability of the numerous self-sustaining equipment and practices that RobertDyck is recommending.

Since this has never been done before, it makes sense to retire as much risk as possible.

However, the MAJOR benefit of this concept is the human selection and training process that would occur.

I think that RobertDyck's idea of putting 1060 people into the equivalent of 123 railroad passenger cars for six to eight months is wildly optimistic.  I suspect that there are few Americans who could hold up mentally and emotionally to the experience.  However, a test facility on a college campus would allow us to find out.  The students who take part would be enrolled in intensive courses of study that would demand up to 12 hours of the day.  The sessions would be conducted both virtually and inside the test facility, with appropriate accommodations.

I would expect everyone to participate in meal preparation, meal cleanup, equipment and facility maintenance, and care of the green house facility on the roof.  The military has established best practices for small unit self-care, so I am confident this model is practical. 

Thanks again for your interest in the Large Ship on-Earth Test Facility.

(th)

Reason for some areas is with regards to mental health

RobertDyck

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From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

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Re: Large ship analog

Ok. Here's the idea for a test facility.
A horizontal building, 236.87 metres (777 feet) long, 19 metres (62 feet, 4 inches) wide, measured from the inside of exterior walls.
Two levels (stories) high. The upper story has three "observation" rooms. One with potted juniper, and other botanicals for gin. A second with a potted dwarf orange tree that produces full-size fruit. Third is a Mars simulation room, with simulation airlock and EVA prep. Lower floor will have 8-foot ceilings. Observation rooms on the upper floor will have peaked greenhouse roof, 12 feet at the apex.

One observation room would be at one end, the others spaced evenly. There would be 3 greenhouses: 2 between observation rooms, the third of equal size positioned at the other end of the building. Observation rooms will be full width of the building, but greenhouses will be only 8 metres (26 feet, 3 inches) wide, inside measurement. Greenhouses positioned along the centre line, so they don't reach the outside edges of the ground floor.
--greenhouse--||stairway||==observation== --greenhouse--||stairway||==observation== --greenhouse--||stairway||==observation==

Ground floor would have no windows. Although I suggested windows for the real ship, the sunward side would experience full sun 24/7, while the opposite side would experience night 24/7. So just give each cabin a TV, no windows.

To simulate spokes, you could have a horizontal corridor. One corridor leading from each the second floor stairway. A gymnasium would be a separate building beside the long main building. Ideal is if the site has a slight grade, so ground floor of the gym is the same level as upper floor of the main building. Each of the three corridors lead to the gym, so the corridors aren't parallel, they angle together. Not quite meeting at a point, but all leading to the gym. The gym will be 22.86 metres (75 feet) long. How wide? Should it be diameter of the hub, or circumference? How about volume? If gym ceiling height is hub radius, that's 4.5 metres (14 feet, 9 inches). Hub cross-section area is Pi*R², divide by R, that's 14.137 metres (46 feet, 4.5 inches) wide. So 75' x 46' 4.5"? Not basket ball court, but equivalent to an elementary school gym.

One end of the gym is the main entrance to the complex. The other end of the gym has a door that opens to a warehouse. Food for everyone in the complex for 6 months is stored in the warehouse. Yes, the warehouse would have a walk-in fridge, and a walk-in freezer.

However, the ship has a gym and a zero-G hub. The gym described above is one big open space, to simulate the hub. The main building would also have a gym, but packed full of exercise equipment. The gym in the main building would be 2 levels, so take some space away from a greenhouse. But we want air from the main-gym to be blown with fans directly into a greenhouse.

Or better yet: two floors for cabins, total length half the circumference of the ship. So 118.435 metres (388.5 feet) long. In the ship you could walk around the circumference. A two story building would have a stairway at each end. So you could walk to one end of one building, walk back on the other floor, take the stairway back to the level you started and walk back to where you started. Total distance would equal circumference of the ship. Do we place the main-gym on the 2nd & 3rd floors? Or place it on the 1st & 2nd, and adjust length of the building to equal total floor area of the ship? With a "folded" analogue, to get enough greenhouse space would require greenhouses beside the main building. Would one floor of the main building be half underground? And greenhouses beside the main building, same length but 12 foot ceilings. So the roof of greenhouses is the same level as floor of observation rooms. Place greenhouses on the south side of the main building for light. The hub-gym on the north side. The 3 corridors from main building to hub-gym would be from different levels of the main building. Angled corridors, so a cart could carry food from the warehouse through hub-gym to kitchens?

With a "folded" building (3 story), would one of the observation rooms be accessed from the lower floor? Placed on the north side of the main building, off the corridor leading to the hub-gym? Perhaps the Mars simulation room. Place the two real observation rooms on the 3rd floor so they have excellent views. The Mars simulation room could have glass walls with just a small space to hard walls with simulated stars painted. And a ceiling painted to look like stars as well. The Mars room on the ship would have greenhouse style window ceiling to give views of the real stars, but the analog building would show painted stars all the time (no daylight). Again to help with the 3 time zone shifts.

Urine processing and fermentation vats would occupy space on the greenhouse level of the real ship. They wouldn't require glass roofs. The real ship would have metal hull & roof, the analog would have regular (metal?) roof and opaque walls. But greenhouses would be glass.

Gym in the main building would have treadmills, exercycles, and weight training machines that use elastic resistance rather than weights. (Bowflex?)

One reason the ground floor to have no windows is time. Remember 1/3 passengers would live one time zone, 1/3 another, and 1/3 another. With time zones 8 hours apart. So the only windows would be observation rooms and greenhouses. The gyms wouldn't have windows, and corridors to the hub-gym wouldn't either. Amateur astronomers could live the night-owl time zone. Give them excellent telescopes in the observation rooms. And a remotely operated observatory with even better telescope and digital image sensor. Should this be located in a desert, so sky is clear of clouds practically all the time?

Vertical hydroponics for lettuce would provide full sun 24/7. Would the analog require artificial light? Or would a mirror system such as SpaceNut suggested be enough?

tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,443

Re: Large ship analog

For RobertDyck re #6

Thank you for your robust follow through on this spinoff topic from Large Ship!

SearchTerm:Analog facility for Large Ship personnel selection and training
SearchTerm:Large Ship Analog facility

Last night Elon Musk was asked two questions that have a direct bearing on the Large Ship project of Mars Society.

First, he said (politely but emphatically) that now is not the time for anyone to be thinking about the interior decorations of Starship for passengers.

Second, he answered a question about life support with a near and far view. For one week trips (ie, Lunar) he would just extend the existing Dragon capsule life support systems.

For the long term he would recycle everything.

I deduce from those two answers that he has NO one working on the long term solutions.

Thus, there is a window of opportunity for your ideas to bear fruit, in the form of a robust test and training facility, and the prospective location in Houston is propitious in a number of ways.

I have not read your post in detail, so must do that later today or this weekend, but my first scan impression is that you have begun a thought process that will be exciting to students (and motivating to funders), while at the same time being sobering to engineers and biologists who would need to implement your ideas in material form.

I ** do ** highly recommend you design the ground Analog facility in modules that can be lifted by Falcon Heavy or Starship, and that you use the same materials you want for Large Ship.

The entire large Ship orbital test article can be assembled from modules you have proved out on the ground.

(th)

tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,443

Re: Large ship analog

We are in early days, so it is nearly impossible (for me for sure!) to estimate with any reliability what the chances of success may be with this venture.

However, there is a clear Division of Labor that is potentially available...

The Mars Society ** could ** provide hardware design services.

In that instance, the funder and Mars Society would accept Mars Society as Prime Contractor for the Facility Hardware and Operations.

The National Space Society ** could ** provide personnel services, including:

1) Publicity/Recruiting
2) Candidate Selection
3) Workload Definition .... Every person engaged is to be busy with studies, chores or off time.
4) On site supervision ... I would expect onsite supervision to be graduate students, responsible for mental and emotional health of participants

The idea here is NOT to attempt 100% recycling ... supplies will be brought in as needed and waste removed as necessary

The idea here IS to refine the plant and equipment and best practices to approach 100% as nearly as possible.

There need not be just one facility.  There could be one at every major University where funders, students and faculty are available to support the program.

(th)

RobertDyck

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From: Winnipeg, Canada

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Re: Large ship analog

Let's not make the mistake of the Mars Society, obsess about anologs at the expense of everything else. One good analog should do. After all, the size of this thing means 1,000 guests at a time. We could do short sessions like MDRS, which has 2 week simulations. I pushed the Mars Society to operate FMARS for one long-duration mission without resupply. A real Mars Direct mission would be 6-month transit, 500 days on the surface, then 6-month transit back. Some argued operation in winter is dangerous, but I argued if we can't do it in the Canadian arctic, how can we hope to do so on Mars? They actually did it. Mars Society Canada had an extended mission that lasted months. The people who participated quit the Mars Society. They also organized Mars 365, a full year in FMARS. Last update talked about preparation and recruiting volunteers. I haven't heard of them completing the mission, last update December 2014. Mars 365 My point is long duration in an analog is onerous. People could tolerate that only if there's a real outcome. We could arrange stays of weeks. We could run it like a Disney theme park, charge money for short stay. But operating like MDRS sounds like a good idea. It could test facilities and life support.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Large ship analog

A glass facility does nothing to simulate a mars living condition as we need mars lighting if we are to use natural. We also need journey natural as well since we are trying to use a greenhouse along the journey. We also need the light to come in just like it would from a large ship ring design not from above.

Preparing chloroplast bags involves growing pea plants to 14 days from germination, cutting up leaves, crushing and centrifuge to isolate chloroplasts. This could be done in the greenhouse on the ring roof.

Chloroplast life support

We do not need to run this anything like a mars society analog facility as we have other goals which are giving them something to do while inside the ship, doing the work required with in its confined for the journey, living the conditions that would be in a large ship comes to mind.

We are looking at the real life journey and landed conditions time frames knowing that earth is there in the simulated mission.
We would slowly introduce the recycling conditions, waste recovery and more as we do the time line work.
The building will find things that people would use to hold onto such as the pipe for the window pane pressure that was repeatedly held onto which was not designed for that use on the ISS.

Here is the post containing the crops for the greenhouse

I said a few times that interior compartments are measured from centre-of-wall to centre-of-wall. Interior partition walls do not have to be 4" thick, this isn't wood. I'm thinking pressure bulkheads are sheet steel, made of two sheets with corrugated steel between. The sandwich must hold pressure if either side decompresses. Interior partition walls will be made of composite, also corrugated between flat wall surfaces. This allows walls to be much narrower. I'm thinking 2cm thick. Even with acoustic insulation. Remember the washroom is located adjacent to the corridor, and plumbing will be in a raceway along the ceiling of the corridor, so no plumbing in the walls.

A large box of equipment is located on the second level above each pressure compartment. That box is deliberately within a pressurized compartment so it can be serviced. This could be a box in the centre of an observation room, or greenhouse. The equipment box will have compressors for air conditioning, pressurized oxygen for emergency repressurization, electric storage batteries, and final water filtration to convert grey water to potable.

For an economy cabin, each bunk has a 10cm (4") deep storage compartment beneath the mattress. That storage compartment is the full length and width of the mattress. Plus 2 rows of drawers under the lower bunk, one row intended for the upper bunk, the other for the lower bunk. If someone rents a whole cabin, they could order one of the three bunk beds removed. that removed 2 bunks (upper & lower). That would free that much floor space for a chair, or just floor space to store luggage.

A studio single is different. Instead there's a Murphy bed, with desk surface beneath the bed the lifts up when the bed is folded into the wall. Along one wall of the cabin are cupboards for storage. Obviously luxury cabins have even more space.

The zero-G hub has an open space in front that acts as reception / foyer for passengers to embark / disembark. That space can be used as a zero-G gym or play area during transit. Aft of the zero-G hub is a zero-G cargo hold. That cargo hold will carry food and supplies for the trip, as well as spare parts for repairs & maintenance, some furniture for in-transit changes, and passenger cargo that they don't need access to during transit.

Floor is the obviously the ring surface away from centre of rotation. Ceiling is "above" the floor, meaning closer to centre of rotation. Floor is curved, so that with rotation it feels flat. That is, floor is a constant distance from axis of rotation. Ceiling is also curved, again constant distance from axis of rotation. Walls are perfectly flat, vertical. Yes, this means width of the room along the floor is 2.43 metres (centre-of-wall to centre-of-wall), but width of the room along the ceiling is shorter.

Anchor points built into the steel floor, and into walls. The end wall, farthest from the door, is always metal. That end wall has anchor points for end tables, and Murphy bed. Side walls are composite for interior walls, steel for pressure bulkheads. Side walls have anchor points for upper bunks. For an economy class cabins, the two lower bunks farthest from the door are mounted on rails, like rails of a car seat. These rails allow the bed to move left-right, and have 3 positions that lock into place. The rails attach to the floor anchor points. The beds attach to the rails. Beds can be all the way to the left, all the way to the right, or in the centre of the room. If beds are at opposite sides of the room, both end tables are attached to the end wall in the centre. They have to be attached to the end wall so they do not interfere with opening drawers under the bed. If both beds are in the centre position, they can have queen-size sheets so the two beds act as one. In that case, end tables are installed at opposite sides of the beds.  The lower bunk across from the bathroom has only one location, against the wall.

I did say the base design for this ship is solar panels for electrical power generation. I am assuming gallium-indium-nitride photovoltaic cells. These are the solar cells that I've posted about many times. From an article in the Journal Science from year 2000. The Los Alamos National Laboratory analyzed photovoltaic cells, and theoretically this chemistry should have a light absorption spectrum that almost perfectly matches the Sun's spectrum, so should be extremely efficient. They went to the University of California in Berkeley, materials lab, to build one to test if their theory matched reality. UC Berkeley found a 2-junction cell converted sunlight to electricity with 56% conversion efficiency, 3-junction with 64% efficiency, and theoretically a 36-junction cell should be 72% efficient. A later researcher optimized configurations for 2 thru 8 junctions. He confirmed 2-junction and 3-junction with the same efficiency, and calculated efficiency for 4-8 junctions. An 8-junction cell would be 70.2% efficient. So obviously the extra junctions for a 36-junction cell are not worth it. The best triple-junction cells for space right now use gallium-indium-phosphate for the top junction, so this new cell just replaces phosphate with nitride. Those best space cells currently are 32.2% efficient, so 70.2% efficiency is a significant improvement. Even if production cells are only 70.0% efficient Beginning-Of-Life, that's still very good. Spectrolab data says expect 84% power output after 15 years in GEO (US Standard AIAA S-111-2005), or 87% power (European standard-ECSS, Photon and temperature annealing according to ECSS-E-ST-20-08C).
Spectrolab XTE Standard Fluence datasheet

Notice the chloroplast oxygen generators are powered directly by sunlight. Plants in the greenhouse also use sunlight. So this reduces the amount of electrical power required to operate the ship.

Standard cabins have a wall for life support between the washroom and corridor. One question is whether space I've given is enough. With cabins 4 metres long by 2.43 metres wide (centre-of-wall), that leaves 2 metres of length per bunk. If composite walls are 2cm thick, that impinges 1cm on each of the 4 sides. If a bunk mattress is 75" (1.905cm) long, and pushed against one wall, then space between mattresses of beds (head to foot) is 17cm (6.69"). That's actually quite a bit. If a shower stall is 32"x32" (81.3cm square) then with 3cm (1 3/16") between end of bunk to shower stall, that leaves 1.232 metres for toilet & sink, plus life support wall. Is that enough? "Cupboard space" under the vanity counter would be for life support equipment. Space around the toilet would be for shower water recycling and toilet desiccation equipment. There may be an overhead "cupboard" space above the vanity for more life support equipment. Is that enough?

electrical for room wiring

Also in studying the sketch again, I realized you had planned for the "normal" conveniences of a hotel room.  The piping needed to support those facilities would run in a part of the "floor" where girders would reside to support the weight of the cabins and their occupants.

I said cables and pipes would run through a raceway. Here's a typical cable raceway...

A bit larger, able to contain all the plumbing as well as cables.

light panels

room appearance with water near hallway

insulated interior wall panels

interlocking interior wall channel

More details for the cabins

I used this website: Cruise Mapper (Click each image below for the website it comes from.)
I've posted this image of a specific cabin. This is Studio Interior Single Cabin, on Norwegian Epic, a specific ship. Note: I've recommended our ship use a Murphy bed 60"x75".
Max passengers: 1
Cabin size: 100 ft² / 9 m²

Each Studio is fitted with a full-size bed (sized 54x74 inches / 140-190 cm), wardrobe, drawers, mirrored vanity table with chair, en suite bathroom (glass door, window, WC-toilet, shower, washbasin), a small window (looking to the corridor).

NCL's Studio cabins are designed for solo travelers. No single supplement is required for category T1.

Studio passengers enjoy exclusive access to the Studio Lounge (indoor relaxation and dining venue).

https://www.cruisemapper.com/images/cabins/642e2b88a4c668f.gif

The Large Ship would only have a few Luxury cabins. The smallest of those would be a Club cabin: 8m x 2.43m (centre-of-wall to centre-of-wall). Assuming portable walls are 4cm thick, that's 19.07m² measured from inside the walls.

This is a "Spacious Balcony Cabin" on the ship Harmony of the Seas by Royal Caribbean.
Max passengers: 4
Cabin size: 180 ft² / 17 m²
Balcony size: 55 ft² / 5 m²

Category "Spacious Balcony Accessible" cabins are larger-sized, with interiors 270 ft² (25 m²) and balcony 80 ft² (7 m²).

Each of the balcony cabins as amenities features Royal King (double) bed, private veranda, sitting area (sofa or double sofabed for 3rd/4th person), private bathroom.

https://www.cruisemapper.com/images/cabins/1067822be3655a4.gif

"Oceanview Cabin" on the ship Harmony of the Seas by Royal Caribbean.
Max passengers: 4
Cabin size: 180 ft² / 17 m²
Balcony size: none

Each of the Oceanviews as amenities features 2 twin beds (convertible to Royal King / double bed), sitting area (sofa or double sofabed for 3rd/4th person), private bathroom.

Category "Oceanview Accessible" cabins are larger (270 ft² / 25 m²).

All Oceanviews on Deck 3 are with Porthole Windows (small-sized, round-shaped, non-opening).

https://www.cruisemapper.com/images/cabins/10670331bfef239.gif

There are a couple others in the 17 - 19m² size range. But be careful to add balcony size to the cabin. If you want a "balcony" on the Large Ship, it must be a small enclosed room next to the hull with large windows. We probably want portholes with a shutter that can be closed automatically to protect the window from meteoroid / micrometeoroid debris. Like the shutters of the cupola on ISS.

SpaceNut

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Re: Large ship analog

From

Void:
(ta) has asked you to draw some pictures. In post #44 I tried to estimate dining room size. That post includes a link to a website for restaurant layout and table sizing. I used the most compact because this is a spaceship. The main dining room will have 300 seats. Not tables, seats. The linked website says School Lunchroom / Cafeteria should have 9-12 square feet per seat, Banquet Room 10-11 square feet per seat. So I allocated 10 square feet per seat. That's total floor area including seat, table, space to walk between tables, etc. Could we draw the main dining room, showing it filled with people?

As an example, a booth would have a thin half-wall between one table and the next. Booth seats would be back-to-back with seats for the next booth. Floor area for one measuring from the back of the bench seat on one side to the back of the bench seat on the other side. Length is centre of the half-wall to centre of the floor between this table and the next. Then tile this for the dining room. How crowded will the room be?


In the above, width A, length G+H+I. This booth seats 4 people, so can we keep the area down to 10x4=40 sq.ft? If A=66"= 5.5', and G=36"=3', H is zero, and G=36"=3', then area = 5.5 x (3+3) = 33 square feet. Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

There will have to be floor area used for the buffet. With 300 seats, that means 3,000 square feet total for the main dining room.

I had envisioned something like the Royal Fork buffet restaurant here in Winnipeg, but with tables closer together. One feature is portable walls that can enclose portions of the dining room to create private rooms. Could we squeeze something like that? For one thing, we won't need a walled corridor to the cash register. The dining room will be free for all guests on the ship.

::Edit:: Found a news article that reported this restaurant closed last December 21. (sniffle) So I can't go take pictures. All we have are these pictures, and video from the news article.
CTV News: Royal Fork Buffet closing after more than 30 years of business

This is just what I am talking about for simulating conditions of use built to the ring width dimensions so that we can see for real how it would work and function over the months of use.

Much of this stuff until we are rotating needs to be fastened down to the floor and stowed until we are on the way.

SpaceNut

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Re: Large ship analog

More of the simulation build

I said a 37.76 meter radius ring at 14 metre wide would equal the volume of Starship 2. Increasing width to 19 metres makes it more practical. That gives 2 corridors each 1.5 metres (59 inches) wide. On either side of each corridor is 4 metre depth for cabins. This increases volume of the ring from 8,000 cubic metres to 10,475 cubic metres, assuming 2.4 metre (8 foot) ceiling height. Is that reasonable?

Floor plan of economy cabins. This is a floor plan, you're looking down at the floor.

another cabin dimension post

I also worked out a mix of cabins (staterooms). I said 162 economy class cabins that are effectively 3rd class from ocean going passenger liners a century ago. Titanic had a washing basin in each 3rd class cabin, and only a single bathtub for all male 3rd class passengers for the entire ship. And a second bathtub for all female 3rd class passengers, again for the entire ship. I said each "economy class" cabin would have a washroom with 30"x30" shower stall, toilet and sink with about as much room as a washroom (lavatory) in an RV, passenger train, or modern commercial jet airliner. Each "economy class" cabin would have 6 "small single" bunks, one pair of bunks that could be moved together to form a single queen size bed; intended for a family with 2 parents and 4 children. In addition 90 "single" cabins the same size but with a single queen size bed. And 4 "premium cabins" with a single king size bed, and a couch/sofa that could open as a queen size hide-a-bed. And a single "luxury suite" also with a single king size bed and a single queen size hide-a-bed. Is this an appropriate mix?

Assume that a "single cabin" would sell for about the same price as an "economy cabin" since they take the same deck area. However, maximum 2-person occupancy for a "single cabin" while the "economy cabin" has 6-person, so the cost per person is triple. Assume premium cabin would cost 4 times the price of a the other cabins, since it takes 4 times the deck area. If the hide-a-bed is not used, cost per person for a premium suite would be 4 times that of a "single", or 12 times that of "economy". The single "luxury suite" would be 4 times deck area of "premium" but rather than 4 times the cost of "premium", it would most likely be higher.

Current cruise ships have dining rooms sized so only half the passengers can be seated at once. This requires two shifts for all meals. I suggested 3 shifts for all meals. I also cited a guide for restaurant dining room design which said 10-11 sq.ft. per seat for school Lunch Room, fast Food or banquet room. So the ship dining rooms would have 10 square feet per person. One room for "fine dining" with only 20 seats, 20 square feet per seat. Is that enough?

I said no common room, instead use the dining rooms. No promenade, although the ship will have a zero-G reception hub that can be used for zero-G entertainment in transit. No swimming pool, no deck, no shuffleboard, no basketball/tennis/billiard (pool tables)/ping-pong, no library, no casino or shops. No cinema or theatre, instead live entertainment in the dining rooms.

Cruise ships today have 20,000 square feet for a ship that carries 2,695 passengers. Our ship carries 1,000 passengers. Providing 4,000 square feet for gym means half the number of square feet per passenger. Enough?

Found a reference for hotel laundry here. It says 500-700 sq.ft. for 120-key hotel. Our ship has 257 cabins, but "economy" cabins have 6 "small single" beds rather than a queen, so double laundry for them? So our 581 "keys" for the purpose of laundry: 500/120*581=2,420 square feet! Ack! The reference also says "each most hotel laundry equipment requires 24” of rear clearance for servicing, and washers should be spaced a minimum of 6” to 12” apart." This is a space assumes separate washers and dryers. I said assume a design based on RV washing machines that use the same drum from washing and drying. So cut the space in half. Then mount the machines with zero rear clearance, the machine would have to be pulled out for servicing. The layout shows machines side-by-side, but a laundromat can have machines stacked 2 high. So 1/2 for single machine, 1/2 for stacked, 2/3 for zero rear clearance? 403 square feet?

Cruise ship rule of thumb is one infirmary bed per thousand passengers. This ship will have 1,000 passengers so 1 medical bed? Let's say 2. This article says for a cruise ship with 2,000 passengers the infirmary sees 20 passengers per day. So our ship 10 per day? This floor plan has 2 "consultation" rooms; not sure why, any clinic I've been to the doctor consults in the examination room. The second is a dental office with 3 chairs and a lab. So based on the first floor plan, replace one toilet with pharmacy storage, replace the second "consultation room" with a lab. The first is 13'x20' so 260 square feet?

Ship's bridge. So what? 200 square feet?

We're left with 2,411 square feet. That has to include corridors. Cabin corridors are already accounted for, but not the rest. Do we put food storage in zero-G, or some storage in the ring? There's life support with oxygen generator, water processor, Sabatier reactor. Does this leave us with room for a lounge/bar/club?

Laundry items mass

SpaceNut

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Re: Large ship analog

here is the simulated ship journey testing

Since so many people don't click a link...

tahanson43206

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Re: Large ship analog

For RobertDyck re Post #13 ... the imaginary Starship passenger vessel...

Whoever created that model remembered to include storage for space suits.

Every passenger and every crew person on Large Ship will need to have an EVA suit.

This will be a requirement for any vessel leaving the US.

Large Ship ** will ** leave from the US.  I just can't see any other Nation willing and able to pull it off.

Your space suit storage facility needs to be part of your design for the cabins, because the passengers and crew need to be able to access the suits in an emergency, and you've already indicated that pressure safe regions will be organized around clusters of cabins.

You've hinted that the equipment floor will be above the cabins deck, instead of below as would be normal.  The EVA suits could go there.

When I say "normal" I am thinking of what any "normal" human would consider "normal"

In a home with a basement, the service equipment is ** always ** in the basement, and (almost) never in the attic.

I have seen installation of an air conditioner in an upstairs location when the home was being refitted to make the upstairs more comfortable for guests.

For the most part, equipment has traditionally been installed in the basement.

Now comes the caveat due to Climate Change ... In New York, and possibly other cities subject to periodic flooding, the equipment room is being moved ** above ** the lower floors, so the building is protected from outage caused by flooding of the equipment room.

Setting ** that ** aside, most architects that are commissioned to work on the Analog version of Large Ship are going to expect to put heavy equipment in the lower part of the structure, and lighter loading in floors above.

***
Something else that has not yet shown up in your thinking is the need for mass balance.

Mass must be ** perfectly ** balanced on Large Ship.  Mass ** MUST ** be perfectly balanced on Large Ship.

I'll keep repeating this until I see signs the message has penetrated the fog.

The Large Ship ** will not ** tolerate mass moving around that is not perfectly matched by an equal amount of mass moving in precisely the same way on the opposite side of the ship.

The fantasy ship shown in the Starship images presumably has microgravity, so movement of mass inside the vessel is of little consequence. For ** any ** rotating vessel, large or small, mass symmetry is required by the Laws of Physics.

(th)

SpaceNut

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Re: Large ship analog

Other things will be safe haven locations for emergencies as we may not be close to a place that has our suit to get into. Or we will need lots of the same size suits for everyone to make use of in an emergency in many locations.

This simulated ship can be made out of anything that will be low cost to construct with. Maybe even 3D printed from the locations insitu materials.

based on post 11 & 12 we need to change the buildings floor layouts due to the shape and dimensions.

Since the ship will not have soils we will want the same for the greenhouse simulation so to learn the same skills that we will be using on the journey to mars.

We will create a similar exercise schedule as built into the daily health regimen plus other activity that applies.

Hmm. If the toilet has no "tank", just a seat, so when you sit your back is against the all. If the washroom is 36" deep, that just barely leaves room to sit on the toilet with room for your feet. The sink would be to one side. The towel rick would literally be over your head as you sit. This still makes the isle between the washroom and the bunk closest to the door narrower. The other If the room is 2.43m (8') wide from centre-of-wall, with walls just 2cm thick, that makes inside 2.41m (241cm) wide. With bunks 30" (76.2cm) wide, the isle between bunks is 88.6cm (34 7/8") wide. If the shower is 32" (81.28cm) wide, the isle to the first bunk is 83.52cm (32 7/8"). If the washroom is 36" (91.44cm) deep inside with 2cm wall, that makes the isle to the first bunk 71.36cm (28 3/32"). Hmm, just barely enough room to stand at the sink (washing basin).

RobertDyck

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Re: Large ship analog

Ok, I drew cabins based on 3rd class cabins from the age of steam ships. They have 4 bunk beds, 2 on the left, 2 on the right, each bed with 2 bunks, so total 8 bunks in the room. My drawing replaced one bed (2 bunks) with a shower stall and washroom (toilet & sink). The shower the smallest available on Earth today. The washroom roughly the size of airline washroom. In the age of steamships, they only had a sink on the end wall. They also only had space beneath the lower bunk to store a valise (suitcase). I have suggested under-mattress storage 10cm (4") deep based on bunks from a US aircraft carrier. And 2 rows of drawers, one row for upper bunk, one for lower, based on a Captain's bed. When I was in grade 11, our social studies teacher arranged a trip to Ottawa to see Parliament buildings. Since it was after April, we stayed at the dormitory at the University of Ottawa. Bunks in dorm rooms were 30" wide, with one thin mattress on a plywood platform. It was fine... when I was 16 years old. Considering the ship will experience 38% gravity, that should be fine for passengers. This leaves just drawers for storage, no closet for a pressure suit.

The few drawings I have made include a storage closet at the stairway leading to the upper deck. One elevator in each spoke, one stairway beside each spoke. The closet with safety equipment will include a soft plastic sheet airlock that can be attached to the pressure door (hatch) that separates one pressure compartment from the next. So if a compartment is sealed, this portable airlock can be attached to allow entry into an evacuated compartment. The closet will hold at least one intra-vehicle spacesuit for crew to enter an evacuated compartment to rescue passengers. And a number of rescue "balls".

Actual EVA suits for crew to do work outside in space would be stored in the zero-G cargo hold.

Here are rescue balls designed for the Space Shuttle before the Challenger accident. For some reason they only show female astronauts posing with them.

SpaceNut

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Re: Large ship analog

elevators would be of a different design in that space requires push and pull systems with cables attached to the sides of the booth with doors that might need to be on either end of the ceiling and floor for personnel entry. These might get used a little if we are still keeping crews going between large ship rings to the simulate starship. Could this be an electric car that we control so that we are not using cables since its a rolling box for earth use. Moving from the center outward would be a breaking system to slowly move by centripetal force while going back we need to move under power against that force. We most likely will need some sort of seat belt to help the crew stay seated while moving.

tahanson43206

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Re: Large ship analog

For everyone thinking about this set of ideas ...

A "rescue ball" seems inappropriate for the folks headed to Mars ... each and every one of them will need a custom fitted EVA suit before they leave Earth.  They will want to be able to work out with that suit in flight, by moving into a volume where Mars conditions are available. This volume does not need to be vacuum, because the intent is to exercise the EVA suits while not losing any atmosphere to space.

Each person needs to have room for the EVA suit, and that suit needs to be exercised regularly, because on Mars, that suit will be worn every day when activities are scheduled outside of sealed volumes.

I'm glad to see our contributors starting to think about planning for exercise.  Young people are going to want to be able to stretch their legs, and the current design of the Large Ship cabin complex has no provision for running the circumference of the habitat.

I made exactly such a track in the 2D models posted early in the Large Ship topic.

The solution is to build a second ring identical to the first one, and slide it next to the cabin ring, so that the space is entirely open for use as needed.

Even then, the space is only slightly larger than a regulation US football field.  1060 people are going to fill that space pretty quickly, if they all make their way into that space at one time.

(th)

SpaceNut

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Re: Large ship analog

So at his point we are thinking of things so far not in the large ship concepts some for safety and others due to going for micro gravity to mars or above AG. Of which we are thinking about emergency as well as practical use for space walks if needed.

RobertDyck

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Re: Large ship analog

In a home with a basement, the service equipment is ** always ** in the basement, and (almost) never in the attic.

I have seen installation of an air conditioner in an upstairs location when the home was being refitted to make the upstairs more comfortable for guests.

For the most part, equipment has traditionally been installed in the basement.

Now comes the caveat due to Climate Change ... In New York, and possibly other cities subject to periodic flooding, the equipment room is being moved ** above ** the lower floors, so the building is protected from outage caused by flooding of the equipment room.

I live in Winnipeg, Canada. Houses here all have a basement. I'm told a builder tried to construct houses on a concrete pad in the 1950s, but that didn't work. In winter ground freezes. When moisture in soil freezes, it forms ice. Ice has slightly larger volume than water, so frozen soil expands. That lifts the house, and it's always uneven. This twists the house, causing the walls to break. I was told cracks in the wall could be so large you could see daylight through. When outdoors temperature is below -30°C, that means extremely cold air pouring into the house. That just doesn't work.

However, I lived in a suburb of Richmond Virginia for 6 months in 1996. It was going well, at one point my supervisor said I could expect to stay in that job for 3 years. So I talked to a real estate agent about buying a house. She couldn't understand the idea of a basement. She thought the only reason for a basement was a drive-in garage. You put equipment and any miscellaneous storage in the attic. Everything we would put in the basement, she thought belonged in the attic. From beginning of June 1999 through end of March 2000 I lived in Miami. They have solid coral beneath a relatively thin layer of topsoil. They can't dig a basement, even if they wanted to. The one winter I lived there I told a co-worker that I escaped winter. She replied "this is winter!" Yea, right! She doesn't know what winter is. I worked downtown, a 20 minute walk from work. I left my car at the apartment so I didn't have to deal with rush-hour traffic or downtown parking. For 2 weeks I had to wear an undershirt under a long-sleeve dress shirt, tie and suit jacket. For 2 days I had to wear my leather fall jacket. They never had snow, never had freezing conditions. So they don't need a basement. However, I lived through 2 hurricanes while I was there. Different climate, different issues. But the point is a basement is not always present.

For our ship, the farther from the centre of rotation, the greater the acceleration. More acceleration, more force. Radiators will be under the floor of the habitation ring, but that's all. Sunlight reflectors will be on the sunlight side of the ring, and hang down far enough to collect sufficient light for the chloroplast oxygen generators. The parabolic mirrors which reflect sunlight into light pipes for oxygen generators will form shadow for the radiators. Shadow will make the radiators work better. But equipment will be on the "roof" of the habitation ring. The reason for placing in the "roof" is closer to centre of rotation means less acceleration. It also reduces the area that must be protected by a heat shield during aerocapture. In fact, the the reflectors will be something light, possibly aluminized polymer. That may have to be pulled up to protect it during aerocapture.

Setting ** that ** aside, most architects that are commissioned to work on the Analog version of Large Ship are going to expect to put heavy equipment in the lower part of the structure, and lighter loading in floors above.

Hire architects from the south.

Something else that has not yet shown up in your thinking is the need for mass balance.

Mass must be ** perfectly ** balanced on Large Ship.  Mass ** MUST ** be perfectly balanced on Large Ship.

I'll keep repeating this until I see signs the message has penetrated the fog.

The Large Ship ** will not ** tolerate mass moving around that is not perfectly matched by an equal amount of mass moving in precisely the same way on the opposite side of the ship.

I have mentioned. I said 3 dining rooms: one main dining room with 300 seats, one medium dining room with 50 seats adjacent to the gym (main-gym), and another medium dining room with 50 seats that has a bar. Each dining room will be as equidistant around the ring as we can make them. The compartment of luxury suites will be between the dining room with bar and the fine dining room. The fine dining room will be part of the compartment with dispensary (aka sick bay), bridge, brig, security, laundry, and one of the spokes. Adjacent to that (other side of the spoke) will be the compartment with crew quarters.

Each observation room on the upper level will be adjacent to one spoke. (Two observation rooms, and a Mars simulation room.) On the other side of the spoke will be a greenhouse.

To compensate for passengers moving about, accelerometers will measure any centre of gravity shift from optimal. A computer will activate pumps to move water to different storage tanks (water wall) to rebalance the ship.

Aircraft flights I have taken in the last few years did not assign seats. However, stewardesses noted passenger seat locations, did a calculation, and in cases asked passengers to move to a different seat. This is to balance the load. I said not all cabins will have maximum passengers. Cabins will be assigned in such a way to balance the load. Software will help accomplish this. Last few times I attended Mars Society conventions and flew, I made a point of only bringing one carry-on bag. The check-in kiosk printed my boarding pass. It asked my seating preference (isle, middle, window, bulkhead), then assigned me a seat. Mass balance was part of the algorithm. The Large Ship will do this too.

RobertDyck

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Re: Large ship analog

elevators would be of a different design in that space requires push and pull systems with cables attached to the sides of the booth with doors that might need to be on either end of the ceiling and floor for personnel entry. These might get used a little if we are still keeping crews going between large ship rings to the simulate starship. Could this be an electric car that we control so that we are not using cables since its a rolling box for earth use. Moving from the center outward would be a breaking system to slowly move by centripetal force while going back we need to move under power against that force. We most likely will need some sort of seat belt to help the crew stay seated while moving.

I'm thinking of elevators that look like Earth elevators. But they will use motors that drive gears that mesh with cog strips along the elevator shaft. So the elevator car drives up and down. When driving down, the motors act as regenerative breaks, generating electricity that can recharge the ship's batteries. Driving up will require power. Cars will have strap loops in the floor that passengers can hook their feet into. And a handle on the wall that they can hold onto. Something like the handle for turboelevators from Star Trek TOS.

elevator shaft car post here

RobertDyck

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Re: Large ship analog

For everyone thinking about this set of ideas ...

A "rescue ball" seems inappropriate for the folks headed to Mars ... each and every one of them will need a custom fitted EVA suit before they leave Earth.  They will want to be able to work out with that suit in flight, by moving into a volume where Mars conditions are available. This volume does not need to be vacuum, because the intent is to exercise the EVA suits while not losing any atmosphere to space.

Each person needs to have room for the EVA suit, and that suit needs to be exercised regularly, because on Mars, that suit will be worn every day when activities are scheduled outside of sealed volumes.

Passengers will never exit the ship. The Mars simulation room will be maintained at pressure equal to Mars surface, so there's an airlock. And an EVA prep room with suit storage. But that's for pretending. The Mars simulation room will have actual pressure equal to Mars surface, actual gas mix, and temperature equal to Mars surface during daylight. Spacesuits will be real, and the same as used on Mars. However, it's just to pretend, to play or practice. The Mars simulation room will still be sealed against the hard vacuum of space.

The analog site will have analog suits.

tahanson43206

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Re: Large ship analog

For everyone contributing to this topic .... Thanks for helping to construct a request for funding for the proposed Large Ship analog facility

As a reminder, the specifications for this undertaking are given in Post #1, which is controlled by SpaceNut.

Departures from the goals defined in that post must be negotiated with SpaceNut.

****
The proposed site for the facility is Houston, Texas:

2101 E NASA Pkwy, Houston, TX 77058
Johnson Space Center Home | NASA
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NASA does simulations of space flight and related conditions to a world standard.

I propose the Large Ship Analog Facility should adopt NASA as a model.

This means:

1) Use real EVA suits
2) Use real cabins
3) Use real atmosphere management hardware and chemistry (and biology if feasible)
4) Use real water management hardware and chemistry (and biology if feasible)
5) Use real food management hardware and chemistry, with external re-supply allowed and monitored closely for historical data
6) Use real waste management hardware and chemistry (and biology if feasible)
7) Create authentic living experiences for all personnel to insure the ground experience is as close to space experience as possible

Let's try to get away from the "pretend" model as much as possible.

For the participants, life confined in a tiny space with 1059 other human beings is going to be a massive test of personal resilience, emotional stability and civic participation not typical in the United States.

I am recommending that the facility be constructed to meet the emotional, intellectual and physical needs of the participants as the first priority.

My guess is that as the development team approaches the problem and examines the initial configuration of physical space more closely, needs will be recognized for adjustment.

The basic design is set by the opening posts of the Large Ship topic:

1) Width 19 meters
2) Circumference 238 meters
3) Gravity prescription: .4 Earth standard
4) Rotation rate: 3 RPM
5) Atmosphere: 3-5-8 rule

The Analog will adopt 1 and 2 as the physical dimensions of a simulated ring.

Gravity is Earth standard. The target of .4 Earth gravity can be achieved by a version of the Analog in LEO
Rotation rate is Earth standard (ie, 1 per day). The target of 3 RPM can be achieved by a version of the Analog in LEO
Atmosphere: Earth Standard. The target of 3-5-8 can be achieved by a version of the Analog in LEO

I am recommending that this basic ring component be replicated as many times as are needed to serve the needs of the population.

The initial configuration for serious study is ONE such ring.

The prospective funder will have the opportunity to add ring equivalent spaces as the need becomes apparent.

A minimum of one additional ring would seem  (to me at least) needed for physical exercise space, including running multiple kilometers.

An additional ring would seem (to me at least) needed for study/library/laboratory/computer facilities for a crew of 1000 serious students

Depending upon funder interest and resources, additional rings may be found both necessary and affordable.

(th)

tahanson43206

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Re: Large ship analog

For all contributing to this topic ...

There ** is ** an option available to the funder for the Large Ship Analog Facility, to provide for 3 RPM experience ...

That is by building a banked circular track for the exercise ring.  This track could be rotated at a steady 3 RPM, and banked so that a person standing still feels a resultant "gravitational" force directly through the body.  By moving in this environment, the person will experience Coriolis effects reasonably close to those that will be experienced by those who visit an Analog in LEO.

(th)

tahanson43206

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Re: Large ship analog

For all contributing to this topic ....

Management of Human Resources for this undertaking requires skills and policies not found in abundance anywhere on Earth.

Some percentage of participants are going to discover they lack the internal resources to complete the program.  This is normal for elite military units, and the Analog Large Ship will place comparable demands upon the people who are ambitious and motivated enough to give it a try.

Motivation can be increased by covering all expenses of the academic program of study, as well as incidental expenses of living in the facility.

Counseling and mental and emotional support is needed for each participant, unlike the military model.

A rigorous and precisely defined set of academic objectives to be achieved by each participant is needed.

The cadre (given by the Large Ship prescription as 60 people) will be responsible for on site management of teams of participants.

Since the Large Ship prescription is cabin based, the natural opportunity is to establish each cabin as a team with a team leader comparable to a squad leader in the military.  This person will be responsible for monitoring the physical, mental and emotional health of the team members.

(th)