Automobile Updates

tahanson43206 · 2021-07-21 08:01:12

For SpaceNut ... there was only one topic with "automobile" in the title, and that one was for a particular brand

This topic is offered for discussion of all brands, with technology as the requested focus, as compared to features or performance.

I'll start off with this snippet from Google ...

When will Subaru introduce a new all-electric SUV?
The new Subaru all-electric SUV is coming sometime in 2022 and is being developed with Toyota. Subaru President and CEO Tom Doll, said in an interview in April, “We will be introducing an (all-electric) SUV in a couple of years through our partnership with Toyota. I can’t really speak too much about the details about it but needless to say, it’s going to be a great electric vehicle for us and will be our first fully-electric vehicle.”

I note the decision on the part of management to partner with Toyota.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-07-21 19:54:39

Something that I am learning a bit more about for the imports are not just the needs of synthetic fluids but how proprietary the vehicle component and parts are in that many require no after market parts to be used in replacements as these sometimes will cause issues and problems.

GW Johnson · 2021-07-21 22:01:50

What I have found is that the newer the model year, the more likely an aftermarket part will not serve correctly. I think that might be deliberate. But the biggest effect is just poor quality control in aftermarket parts, particularly those made in China. Starters and alternators are particularly bad about being nonfunctional right out of the box.

GW

SpaceNut · 2021-08-07 16:56:00

Still no fix as GM scrambles 'around the clock' to end Chevy Bolt battery fires

GM had first issued a recall on 68,000 of the 2017 through 2019 model year cars last November.

Seeing the burnt wreckage n you look at this you know why.

AAN2RRY.img?h=1148&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

Batteries that are over charged will get hot if continued to charge plus break down internally shorting out and from the wall outlet it shows that a huge current was being requested by the batteries as they charged from the charger unit.

Seems that over current draw from the source was not in the design protection system and not a timer for how long to allow the charging either...

GW Johnson · 2021-08-08 10:55:48

There really is quite a difference between shareholder value and technical excellence. Just ask the new Boeing about that.

Their new management located in Chicago, far away from the engineering operations in Seattle and Wichita, is quite proud of discarding technical excellence for shareholder value. They have said so publicly.

This kind of management gave you these debacles: B-737MAX unairworthiness, 777X unairworthiness, and 787 construction flaws that threaten airworthiness. And to my way of thinking, the Starliner mess.

GW

kbd512 · 2021-08-08 17:24:35

GW,

How many executives without engineering expertise would recognize technical excellence if they saw it, much less know what to do if the engineering department was producing designs that lacked technical excellence?

Elon Musk stated in his Starbase Interview that it has happened several times that some design element was included in a given vehicle design, despite the fact that nobody on the design team could articulate the reason why the part / widget / gadget existed to begin with.

Is it possible that some of these designs are now so complex that no single person can evaluate the merit or lack thereof of any specific portion of the overall design?

GW Johnson · 2021-08-08 19:36:30

It is quite possible that many things have enough complexity that one human being can no longer adequately judge. And in particular, I most often found that corporate managers were incompetent to judge what engineering excellence was when they saw it. That actually takes well-educated, well-trained, well-experienced engineers. Newbies fresh out of school do not qualify as such.

However, it is quite another thing when Boeing's corporate management is publicly proud of deleting the historic priority on engineering excellence, in favor of shareholder value as their top priority. Boeing corporate management did exactly that. That buzzword is usually associated with doing a bad engineering job in order to lower cost, which in aviation costs lives. And in Boeing's case, I see no exception to that general conclusion.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2021-08-08 19:39:45)

kbd512 · 2021-08-08 19:46:17

GW,

In the business world, it's quite frequently the case that price sells. That problem is largely customer-driven. Absent prior knowledge, how do you convince the average consumer that being a little cheaper than an alternative frequently does not mean "better"?

tahanson43206 · 2021-12-18 08:25:19

For SpaceNut .... this post could go into other topics ... I'm starting it here because the topic is generic ...

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/fede … 50680.html

Steve Dent·Associate Editor
Fri, December 17, 2021 9:00 AM
FedEx has received it's first five GM-built electric delivery vans out of an order of 500, the company announced. The move represents an important landmark for FedEx in its stated goal to be have an all-electric delivery fleet and be carbon neutral around the world by 2040.
"The delivery of the first BrightDrop EV600s is a historic moment, born out of a spirit of collaboration between two leading American companies," said FedEx's chief sustainability officer Mitch Jackson. "[T]ransforming our pickup and delivery fleet to electric vehicles is integral to achieving our ambitious sustainability goals announced earlier this year."

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-12-18 13:57:56

So long as the power to charge does not increase it should reduce costs of operations for the business which have continued to move away from fossil fueled engines but the reminder of KBD512 and Caliban is the infrastructure issues which can not handle the additional loads of many more charging during those same hours when they are idle.

Edit here is one of the business that have started to change the fleet of vehicles

FedEx receives its first fully-electric GM Brightdrop delivery vans

The all-wheel-drive EV600 has 600 cubic feet of cargo space and can go up to 250 miles on a charge.

So is that for the life of the battery that when you charge it that you will always get the mileage quoted...

kbd512 · 2021-12-18 18:19:05

SpaceNut,

How do you save money on something that doesn't last any longer than what it replaced, is three times more expensive to purchase, and is functionally non-repairable if any substantive part on it ever breaks?

The door handles on the Tesla cost more than a brand new engine for my car. Please let that sink in. They're 4 pieces of plastic with tiny electric motors and microchips in them, and might weigh 1 pound each, that cost as much as 300 pounds of finely machined Aluminum and steel. If you don't think that's a problem, then what would qualify?

The battery costs more than my car and it's only ever one software update or microelectronic glitch away from being an ornate but absurdly over-priced paperweight par excellence. The car itself may function flawlessly, but if the charger malfunctions, then even that can destroy a component that costs as much as a car. If that's not enough, whenever something does "go wrong", it happens at the speed of light and creates an irreversible chain of events that can turn the car into a rolling bonfire.

If you can't leave the car unattended while recharging and therefore can't recharge it in your garage overnight, then you're left with using "fast chargers" that the grid can't tolerate that have the additional unwanted effect of decreasing the life of the battery. The fast chargers aren't cheap and require money to maintain, so now we're right back to where we started with the constant price increases of using "features as services", except that battery electronic vehicles cost three times more than gasoline powered cars.

There is no "winning" here. It's an otherwise very simple basic math problem that people blinded by ideology cannot solve, because they're simultaneously ignorant of what the problem is and practical methods to actually solve it. It takes power to move weight around. The more weight you have to move, the more power you require. I've already proven with simple math that a Tesla is using almost exactly one half as much power as a car powered by a modern combustion engine. All the highly touted efficiency of batteries and motors can skirt around that issue, either.

Both the batteries and electric motors are already operating near 100% efficiency, so there's very little room left for efficiency improvements. The weight of the electric motor is tiny compared to the weight of the battery. If you total the weight of all other components on the car, it's only slightly more than the weight of the battery. That means the only actual "solution" will come in the form of batteries that are not 42 times less energy dense than gasoline, per unit weight. That's the absolute best we've managed thus far, despite the fact that batteries predate combustion engines. All of our current refinements to existing batteries don't amount to a hill of beans in light of that fact.

I already told you what the ultimate solution was, with respect to decreasing energy usage. You have to make the machines lighter, period. We already have the technology to do that, and it's not particularly expensive to implement, relative to existing combustion engines and battery electronic vehicles. It starts with a plastic or steel tubing and fabric chassis and ends with a small combustion engine, similar to what a motorcycle uses. There is no good reason for a subcompact car to weigh as much as a 1950s era pickup truck. Electronic gadgets don't make cars "better", either, merely more expensive to purchase and maintain. The only real question, as it relates to the electronic gadgetry, is "How much is too much?" I've already surpassed my limit on this nonsense. We've taken what should be a simple machine to produce and maintain, and contorted it to the point where it's unaffordable and unrepairable.

We already have the tech to make a car chassis that doesn't rust and is 1/3rd the weight of a sheet steel monocoque for equivalent crash protection. It's called fiber-reinforced plastic (not resin-infused woven fabric composites). Alternatively, we have steel tubing and fabric (DOM low alloy steel tubing used in most race car chassis combined with foam insulation and uni-directional Kevlar fabric infused with plastic). The tech to simplify the vehicle's drivetrain has existed for many decades, and is commercialized technology used in motorcycles. The racing style GFRP or CFRP bucket seats are also available commercially, at a total cost no greater than the heavy steel / leather / foam solutions currently installed in most passenger cars. Zero "new technology" is required to do this. We don't need to wait 5 or 10 or 100 years for something "better" to come along, because it's been right under our noses the entire time.

A vehicle that weighs 1,500 pounds or less doesn't need power steering, doesn't benefit from a 10 speed transmission, doesn't require a massive turbocharged liquid cooled engine to reach maximum legal highway speed, or an absurdly complex battery and electric motor combination that weighs as much as it does. It will perform every bit as well using far less power, it has far less embodied energy locked up in the materials used to construct it and therefore manufacturing cost, and it's repairable or recyclable when repair is no longer an option. That is the "way forward", unless all of our salaries start rapidly increasing to keep pace with inflation and the general cost of all these new / non-repairable electronic toys so many people have become so enamored with. People like myself require practical motor vehicles to drive to work, not light tanks or mobile arcade games.

SpaceNut · 2021-12-18 20:53:39

Some think that making all of those silly changes are what real people want but its mostly the rich and lazy, which these features are produced for.

Mass of a rolling vehicle has been known for some time as to why fuel use can be decreased by changing that heavy from nose bumper and so has the aerodynamics of shape plus being low to the ground.

The Prius that I am about to have possession of has halogen head light bulbs of a 1 filament design that requires a power module to go from low beam to high. Which the design is silly when you are powering this from a battery. This should have been LED instead to use less power.

kbd512 · 2021-12-19 00:42:14

SpaceNut,

If it's been known for quite some time, then why do the vehicles keep getting heavier, less reliable outside of their warranty period, and less practical to repair for reasonable cost?

Your Prius is a prime example of engineering for inefficiency. It's a subcompact car that weighs at least 3,000 pounds.

The Fiat 500, another subcompact car, started life at 1,100 pounds. Now it weighs 2,500 pounds. It was originally powered by a small 500cc motorcycle engine. Now it has a 157 horsepower turbocharged liquid cooled I4. Excessive weight and power requirement is a vicious circle.

tahanson43206 · 2021-12-19 07:37:53

For kbd512 ... we (in the US and parts of Europe) still live in a Capitalist society.

Capitalists take the risk of investing in products they think customers will spend hard earned income to possess.

Customers select the products they can afford, with the features they want.

The product you have proposed is as eligible for massive investment as any other concept.

The director of Marketing you hire is going to want to know who is ** out there ** to buy the product, after all the investment that will be needed.

If you cannot supply a market of sufficient size to support the investment needed, then you simply do not have a product to offer.

I notice inexpensive one person minimal vehicles coming on the market from time to time, but none of them seem to survive in the competition.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-12-19 10:34:10

Luxury is why these vehicles keep getting heavier and roomier, with sales prices having little to do with value of materials used..not practicality...

tahanson43206 · 2021-12-19 10:54:57

For SpaceNut re #15

Your post hints at possibly understanding the Capitalist system, but I'm not sure.

What you call "luxury" would NOT be considered luxury to a business person who needs a reliable comfortable car to travel from the airport to a meeting and back. I rent an up-to-date vehicle once a year for an out-of-town trip. My day-to-day vehicle was built in 2001 by a maker of ultra-reliable cars. The leap from 2001 to 2021 is becoming easier, as i begin to find the changes in technology settling into a pattern. This year I found the radar bumper system to be reliable and trustworthy, but the lane tracker was unreliable and potentially even dangerous. Next year there will no doubt be further improvements.

I think that the thinking of kbd512 is much more suitable for an authoritarian state ... the people only need ** one ** vehicle, and that vehicle can be as light and economical as modern science and engineering can achieve, because the people take what is offered or walk.

If the modern Capitalist system saw a profit in the kind of car kbd512 advocates, the streets would be full of them.

It does NOT, and they are NOT.

(th)

kbd512 · 2021-12-19 18:35:20

tahanson43206,

It's not about being authoritarian, it's about simple brutal efficiency and admitting to resource over-extension reality. A car doesn't have to be a light tank or a rolling arcade game in order to be useful.

SpaceNut · 2021-12-19 19:29:18

luxury for automobiles are the features or bells and whistles that are not required to make a car or truck move.

Computer controlled for fuel burn is a useless feature that has not improved exhaust when its defective.
Seat warmers are not required nor would be a cooler for ones tush if you live in a screaming hot area of the world.
Wipers on the head lights.
the list goes on and on...
reliability has to do with you not paying much to vehicle maintenance and its still works...
It does not need to be built like a tank to withstand a collision at 80 mph as you do not need to be going that fast and why can you not keep control of your vehicle comes to mind.

Some would want this Airless tires: Why you'll want this game-changing technology

The question is cost for each wheel to how long they last compared to a regular tire mileage, this falls under luxury....

GM Starts Delivering Hummer EV Even Though the Planet Doesn’t Need Luxury Electric Trucks

General Motors proudly announced that it was now delivering its Hummer EV Edition 1 Pickup, a 9,000-pound (4,082 kilograms) luxury electric beast with a 1,000-horsepower motor that can go from 0 to 60 mph (96 kph) in three seconds. The message: You can do your part to save the planet, if you’re rich that is.
In a press release on Friday, GM announced the beginning of “a new era” for the company, marked by the delivery of its first next-generation electric vehicles. Unfortunately, that new era is headlined by the Hummer EV Edition 1, a $110,295 car with an estimated 329 miles (529 kilometers) of range,

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-10 19:16:06

For SpaceNut .... I was unaware anyone is still using manual transmissions, except for lawn tractors ...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusi … hp&pc=U531

Ford Patents Manual Transmission That Doesn’t Need a Clutch Pedal
By James Gilboy, The Drive - Friday

The manual transmission's gradual disappearance from road cars makes it look like the end of the road for the third pedal. Some modern manuals, like a novel one offered by Hyundai, don't even have a clutch pedal. Ford could soon go down that path too, as patent filings show Ford has conceived of a new style of manual box that only requires hand inputs to shift--but could still include a foot pedal for those that want to use it.
Such was revealed in a patent application filed by Ford with the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) in December 2018, though the document's contents were only published last November, and discovered by Muscle Cars & Trucks this month. The patent is stated to be for a "manual transmission with [an] electric clutch," one where the clutch release hydraulics are pressurized by a master cylinder operated by an electronic actuator. This actuator receives signals to disengage either from a pressure sensor on the H-pattern shifter or from an "override" attached to the clutch pedal, which would be connected to the clutch only electronically.
MC&T speculates the mechanism could find use in the S650 Mustang, though it could just as easily be used in something like the Bronco. That requires it to make production, though, and a patent filing is no indication that it will. It's a far more complex mechanism than a traditional, hydraulic-only clutch system, which would drive up cost, complicate service, and possibly decrease reliability.
Its advantages lie mainly in making manual transmission operation more approachable, or more compatible with a hybrid system, such as that rumored for the next-gen 'Stang. If used in the hybrid Mustang, this electro-hydraulic clutch mechanism could automate engagement while the front-axle motors assist with takeoff. That'd be especially useful if the next Mustang has a stop-start system.

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SpaceNut · 2022-02-10 20:13:21

Second time writing this as the keyboard usb port had locked up for some reason.

I have heard that there is a clutch-less meaning no pedal on the floor to push but its combined into the stick that is used to shift the gears with a slight depression of the unit.

tahanson43206 · 2022-03-03 06:54:25

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ford-named-e … 39541.html

Ford says that splitting into two units will help boost profits and streamline operations. The reorganization will allow engineers, designers, and other Ford employees to focus on either EV or gasoline efforts, rather than splitting their time between the two, the company said. Ford said the new structure will help it nearly double profit margins by 2026, the same year it plans to produce more than 2 million electric cars.
Shares of Ford surged roughly 7% on the news Wednesday morning.
Read the original article on Business Insider

This article reports on a (mildly amusing) trademark dispute between Ford and Tesla.

The issue was resolved amicably.

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SpaceNut · 2022-03-03 20:19:56

Sure the separation is down the right road but unless you are design what people really want which is affordable the sales will be just to those with a lot more money for toys. Its got to cost more like the low end gasoline cars mid 15,000 value as anything above the 30,000 is just to much for most people these days.
I am quite lucky that when I saw the prius for the low 2,500 that I spoke up for it....

tahanson43206 · 2023-02-11 11:26:48

The article at the link below is about increased use of electric turbines for internal combustion engines ....

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/electric-tu … 00789.html

How Electric Turbochargers Are Changing Internal Combustion
Chris Perkins
Fri, February 10, 2023 at 2:20 PM EST
electric turbocharger
How E-Turbos are Changing Internal CombustionIllustration by Brown Bird Design
Now more than ever, automotive engineers have to chase efficiency wherever they can. In an internal-combustion engine, a turbocharger is a great way to boost power and efficiency for an engine of a given displacement, and over the last decade we've seen a proliferation of downsized, turbo engines replacing larger naturally aspirated units. Yet, the turbocharger itself is far from perfect.
A turbocharger is a crude device. It takes a while to spool up, the spool is entirely dictated by the flow of exhaust gasses, it wastes a lot of those exhaust gasses, and it's hot. Plus a traditional turbo can only be operated well below its maximum speed, because if it exceeds this, damage to the turbo and/or engine can occur.
An electric turbocharger can solve a lot of these problems, and more.
Let's dip into a quick, perhaps unnecessary, sum-up of turbocharger basics. Within the snail-shaped housing are two turbines on either side connected by a small shaft. Exhaust gasses blow on one turbine, which in turn spins the other called the compressor wheel. The compressor wheel increases air density in the intake, boosting engine power. Fresh air also feeds the compressor, and typically, the air from the compressor goes through an intercooler of some sort to reduce intake air temperature. On the exhaust side, there is usually a valve that opens and sends excess air downstream to the rest of the car's exhaust system once the turbine is up to a desired speed. This is called the wastegate.
garrett e turbo
Garrett Motion
An electric turbocharger is basically just a regular turbocharger with a motor attached to the turbine shaft. Simple in concept, difficult in execution, filled with possibilities. "It brings another degree of freedom, says Craig Ballis, CTO at Garret Motion, in an interview with Road & Track. "Automakers can use it for power, they can use it for efficiency, they can use it for emissions, they can use it for drivability."
Garrett has been in the turbo business for decades, and it was the first to bring an electric turbocharger to the market. Mercedes-AMG is the first automaker to offer it, in both the C43 and C63, which pair an e-turbo with AMG's 2.0-liter M139 for 402 and a staggering 476 hp, respectively. The C63 has the most power-dense engine on the market today, with 251 hp/liter, and because enough is never enough, the four-cylinder is augmented by a plug-in hybrid system for 671 hp.
It's easy to think that the sole job of an electric turbocharger is to reduce lag. That's what I thought, and indeed, that is a huge benefit of its use. In very simple terms, a larger turbocharger—with larger turbine and compressor wheels—can force more air into an engine, making more power, but the bigger you go in turbo size, the longer it takes to achieve the target boost level. Add an electric motor to the shaft, however, and you can get the whole thing up to maximum speed without waiting on exhaust gasses. (Turbo lag cannot be eliminated but it can be reduced to such a small amount that it's inconsequential.)
Ballis prefers to use the term transient response—what happens when you press the accelerator—rather than turbo lag. He points out that improving transient response not only helps with drivability, but emissions too. "You're able to control the air that goes into the engine more precisely, matching it with the fuel and the demand on the engine."
garrett e turbo
Garrett Motion
Then, there's the efficiency an e-turbo brings. An electric motor can spin in two directions, and spun in reverse, it can act as a generator. In hybrid and battery-electric vehicles, the slowing of the motors can be used to slow down the car while putting energy into the battery. On a much smaller scale, you can do the same thing with the motor of an electric turbo. "The funny thing about the turbo is over various drive cycles, typically it can be energy neutral," Ballis says. "Meaning you can generate as much as you use. It's at different points in time, but over various drive cycles, it can become energy neutral, or even energy positive."
Garrett's electric turbo still uses a wastegate, though the more precise level of boost control means less exhaust gas is wasted, and thus, a smaller wastegate can be used. Having a motor on the shaft means that the precise speed of the turbo is always known. Typically, a modern car's ECU estimates the speed of the turbo and uses the wastegate to manage boost pressure, but leaves a huge margin for error for safety and durability. This leaves performance on the table for a given turbocharger size. If you know the exact speed of your turbo, however, you can run it much closer to its operating limit without fear of exceeding it. It's not a benefit unique to e-turbos—Ferrari and Nissan both use traditional exhaust-gas turbochargers with speed sensors—but it's important to note.
2023 mercedes amg c 63 e performance
The new Mercedes-AMG C63.Mercedes-Benz
Garrett started working on e-turbos 20 years ago, but found that they simply weren't viable with 12-volt electrics. Ballis says you could only have a 3-kW motor on the shaft at the maximum, and even then, it was a big draw on the system. With the rise of higher-capacity electrical architectures, electric turbocharging became viable. Most versions of the current C-Class use a 48-volt "mild-hybrid" architecture, while the C63 uses an AMG-designed 400-volt plug-in hybrid system. Mercedes also decided that the new C-Class would only receive four-cylinder power. Electric turbocharging made a lot of sense here.
According to Jan Habermann, one of the engineers behind AMG's application of e-turbos, the company wanted to give the C43 a more special engine than its predecessor, which used a V-6 shared with non-AMG products. The M139 is made by hand at AMG's factory in Affalterbach, and while it can be found in AMG's 45-series cars, those have 12-volt electrics, and thus, traditional exhaust-gas turbochargers. The C43 gets the e-turbo not for more power—the CLA45 S makes 415 hp to the C43's 402—but for all the other benefits the hardware brings.
mercedes c 63 powertrain
The Mercedes-AMG C63 powertrain.Mercedes-AMG
The C63 represents a different story. Its four-cylinder plug-in powertrain replaced a much-loved 4.0-liter V-8, and AMG knew it had to pack a huge punch. "[Going] hybrid has a lot of advantages," Habermann says. "You can have a very small and fuel-efficient engine on one side; you can drive fully electric, and you have really insane performance, much, much, much better than the predecessor." AMG felt that the C63 had to not only compete with traditional gas-powered super-sedans but with new, ultra-powerful EVs. (In a world where Kia sells a 577-hp version of the EV6, you can see the logic.)
To get the sort of power out of a 2.0-liter turbo four AMG was after, Habermann says that you'd have "turbo lag like hell" with a traditional turbocharger. The C63's turbo has a compressor wheel diameter of 71 mm to generate maximum boost of 37.7 psi (!), which is something you'd more likely see in a truck or a thousand-horsepower tuner car. It's gargantuan. (It also has variable-geometry vanes, for even more flexibility.) You may think that the C63's hybrid system, which has a 204-hp electric motor, could compensate for any turbo lag, so why go through the trouble of using an electric turbo? There's not a simple answer.
"It's again for performance and efficiency," Habermann says. AMG's hybrid system uses a 6.1-kWh battery and the idea behind the control strategy is to keep the battery plenished up enough so the motor can deliver full power whenever the driver wants. By using the electric turbo to get the engine to full power quickly, the electric motor can remain on standby with energy stored in the battery. "It's a funny thing. You have an electric traction drive, but you do not want to use it so that you can store the energy. You just want to use it for performance."
Funny as it might be, it's easy to see the logic when you consider that the motor on the C63's electric turbo has just 6 kW (8 hp), so it takes a lot less energy to spin that up than it does to spin a drive motor 25 times as powerful.
tecday amg future of driving performance eigenständige e performance antriebsstrategie für performance hybride antriebsstrang 4 zylinder m139 elektrischer abgasturbolader tecday amg future of driving performanceindependent e performance drivetrain strategy for performance hybrids drivetrain 4 cylinder m139 electric exhaust gas turbocharger
Cutaway of the e-turbo used in the C63.MERCEDES-BENZ AG - GLOBAL COMMUNICATIONS MERCEDES-BENZ CARS & VANS
AMG naturally does a lot of interesting things with the turbocharger throughout the engine's rev range. At low engine speeds, the motor spins the turbocharger up while pressure from exhaust gasses are still building. Since this increases the volume of air going into the engine, it also increases the volume coming out, further aiding boost generation. In and around 3500 rpm and at constant throttle, the motor doesn't do much, if anything, as there is enough exhaust gas to keep the turbocharger spinning at its maximum of 175,000 rpm. At higher speeds, up to the C63's 7000-rpm redline, however, the motor puts out around 1 kW to keep the turbo spinning, helping extend the power band and improving throttle response. Normally turbocharged engines "die out" closer to redline, but AMG wanted a turbo engine that felt more like a naturally-aspirated one, with power building across the rev band.
As you'd expect, AMG also uses the turbo's motor to improve transient response across the power band, and as needed. Habermann says that at lower engine speeds it can take up to a second to reach full boost pressure, in the mid-range, it's almost instantaneous, and at high RPM, it's around 0.4 seconds. That's impressive for such a large turbocharger, and small enough that you don't feel it, according to Habermann. The turbo also sends energy back to the battery off throttle during gear shifts, harnessing the air that would otherwise be sent out of a wastegate back into the atmosphere.
Spare a thought for the calibration engineers, and the guys at AMG who have to make sure the bottom end of a 2.0-liter four-cylinder doesn't blow up in spectacular fashion when faced with 37.7 psi of boost. One also imagines the difficult task for those who designed the turbocharger's motor as it has to spin up quickly to 200,000 rpm in an extremely hot, vibration-heavy environment.
garrett e turbo
Garrett Motion
Ballis says that more automakers will embrace electric turbocharging in the near future, and not just for high-performance applications, as mild- and plug-in-hybrid vehicles become more popular and necessary. Truck manufacturers are also interested in the tech. "It's an efficiency play, it's an emissions play, of course, it's also a power density play, but it's bringing all of those benefits," he explains. "In the end, it's bringing a new degree of freedom to engine design that didn't exist before…. You can kind of have air on demand with more precision." He adds that the costs of all the hardware is coming down, making this a more viable solution for mainstream applications.
The rest depends on how our transition to fully electric motoring progresses. Perhaps e-turbos are an interim solution, but they also make internal-combustion engines more viable. It's proof that there's a lot more efficiency to be extracted from the internal-combustion engine.
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kbd512 · 2023-02-11 15:27:11

Money is a proxy for energy. To gauge actual efficiency, see if the price of the new vehicle went up or down. If it went up significantly, then that's a giant red flag that no actual efficiency improvement was achieved. They spent inordinately more energy and therefore money to cram more air into a smaller displacement engine. Anyone can spend more money if they have the money to spend. Anyone who's ever worked on a modern German car can attest to the expense and time required to maintain one.

Putting the world "electric" in front of the word "turbo" doesn't affect where the input power to compress air is coming from. A normal turbocharger uses waste energy contained within the engine's exhaust gases to create the input power to compress air, in order to cram more air into a given cylinder volume for combustion with fuel. An "electric turbo" is a misnomer. Regardless of whether or not it superficially looks like a normal turbocharger, it is in fact a supercharger. Superchargers rob engine power from the crankshaft to drive themselves, whether from direct mechanical drive belts or gears connected to a "blower" or a much larger alternator to power an "electric turbo". Turbochargers use what would otherwise be wasted energy to drive them.

Marketing hype aside, they drastically increased the cost and weight of the car. If someone can explain what we need 577hp 2L 4-cylinder turbocharged engines for, I'd love to hear it. What you end up with consumes more space than a V8 by a lot, and is heavier than a V8 to boot. If it's making equal horsepower to a V8 at higher rpm and boost pressure by using superchargers, electric or belt-driven, then it's burning just as much fuel as an equivalent V8. The false assertion is that people won't use the extra power, which immediately removes its fake "fuel economy improvement". It's cool that they can do this, just because, but putting 577hp into a passenger car is an absurdity for most people. The 2024 C63 AMG is a sports sedan with a starting price of $95,000 USD.

Car and Driver's assessment of the new C63:

Highs Poised handling, rocket-like acceleration, shockingly civil when cruising. Lows Short electric driving range, heavier than the previous generation, we miss the V-8 rumble.

From CNET:

The C63's electro-wizardry adds roughly 600 pounds to the outgoing AMG's curb weight, which at about 4,600 pounds puts it in line with a Dodge Charger Hellcat Redeye.

Correction to CNET: 4,489lbs - 3,704lbs = 785lbs
I know, more of that "icky math stuff" that nobody bothers to do. I'm a bean counter. I count beans, and that's a lot of additional beans.

From CarScoops:

Yeah, let’s talk about the weight. Forget any notions that lopping off four cylinders might make this C63 lighter than the last one. The new bigger body, hybrid kit and all-wheel drive transmission destroys that dream. Mercedes-AMG listed the last C63 S sedan at 3,704 lbs (1,680 kg) in European trim, but this one comes out at 4,489 lbs (2,036 kg). That’s like driving around in the old car with three thick-set buddies or four slim ones. And though the new car is clearly faster, greener (156 g/km vs 196 g/km), and will guzzle far less fuel (34 mpg U.S. / 41 mpg UK on the EC cycle, says AMG), you have to wonder what effect that extra ballast will have on the handling.

Good job fellas. You made an I4 "electric turbo hybrid woo woo" car drastically heavier than the V8 car. They added a bunch of expensive garbage to an overpriced sports car to make it even more expensive and utterly impossible to maintain.

Meanwhile, a redneck from a trailer park managed 42mpg from a carbureted Ford 302CID V8 jalopy (with almost 4 extra liters of displacement over this I4 electric turbo nonsense) by slapping a lawn mower carb and plastic adapter on the intake manifold, then running a Holley 4-barrel at the track where it's legal to go as fast as you want to go. If you want fuel economy, you choke the life out of the engine. If you want peformance you can't legally use anywhere on a highway, then take your car to the track, slap a giant carb on it, and watch it make more power than any amount of expensive bolt-on gadgetry.

Fuel economy wasn't even what the guy was aiming for. It was done as a gag in response to an internet meme of a lawn mower carb on a giant engine. He only "discovered" the fuel economy improvement after driving it. He didn't even think the engine would start. His car still goes 75mph down the highway and gets 42mpg with the aerodynamics of a brick and serious questions as to whether or not it will even hold together on account of being a rust bucket that time was unkind to. Imagine what he could do with a modestly aerodynamic chassis without a bunch of absurd weight added to it. Mind you, this is a cast Iron Ford V8 engine vehicle, yet somehow it's a whole subcompact car lighter than the latest dumpster fire from Mercedes-Benz. This is what American engineering versus German engineering looks like.

GW Johnson deserves an engineering excellence award for an actual improvement to an aircraft fuel sight gauge system, namely making it big enough that the pilot doesn't have a valid excuse for "not knowing" that his bird is low on fuel, via the aerospace grade Ball jar- an "aircraft quality component" found on every farm in America that uses agricultural aircraft. I've heard that since they can run on multiple types of fuel, they now identify as multicultural aircraft.

What do they teach these people in engineering schools?

Do they ever force them to work on the systems they've designed?

I wanna force some German engineers to work on Mercedes-Benz vehicles for about 6 months. After they've had their noses rubbed in their work long enough to drive home the point, then let's see what they come up with next. I'll bet disassembling the entire front end of the car to change spark plugs won't be real high on their priority list.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-02-11 16:32:57

There is also an ongoing project to build a Car for the Moon and Mars, the Toyota 'Lunar Cruiser', Nissan how displayed a plan for a driverless buggy / truck and the Japanese Honda and German Porsche have plans and Lockheed with GM have a project, moving across Moons and Planets inside a vehicle in the comfort of shirt sleeves.

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