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#1 2021-11-21 12:26:14

Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,143

Moons of the solar system.

I guess I think that some moons themselves can eventually be partially terraformed, never to be exactly like Earth of course.

But technically, if we can make any part of any planet/moons habitable, we have terraformed to some degree a planetary system.

If there were no Mars, then other than Mercury and Venus, which are going to be hard work, there mostly remains moons in the solar system.

This topic actually could also collect information about moons and serve as a reference.

One thing I have entertained, is the notion that solar powered sails could be shot off from the Moon or lofted to orbit with a tether, and unfold and deliver "Metals" to various places in the solar system.

For instance, to impact a moon of Saturn.  Vapors would be produced, but would most of the loss be ice or also the metals?  Well of course if it is the metals then you have to come up with a method to prevent that.

But, tunneling endlessly into the Moon would produce a human home of great extent, provided that all materials needed can be by reasonable method be provided from and to the Moon.

It may be possible that needed materials could be supplied to the Moon by impactors from further out in the solar system.

So, I think that the Moon would sell, solar projected objects to such icy places, and those icy places would provide human habitations, and perhaps also tar ball impactors to hit the polar craters of the Moon.

So, actually I am beginning to think that our Moon is a big-time win.

I feel that the Jupiter system will have enough rocky materials from Callisto and the Trojans, most likely.

Saturn's Moons:

Saturn's Moons all seem to have ice layers that are very thick.  Two may have oceans, that we know of Titan and

I am not as bad as you may think.  If Enceladus, does have life, I would be very careful about it.

Otherwise, if a method to get to the ocean bottom could be done, then extraction of rocky materials and habitation of it might be possible.

Nuking Titan, if not having life, sort of possible.  Certain considerations would be needed.  Most likely Titan would yield little rocky materials.

For the Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune/Pluto places, attainment of rocky materials locally, may be a problem.

I have just posted elsewhere about how spacecraft and habitats may, in some solar system locations be enclosed inside of a "Ice Envelope".

That would actually be like putting on an overcoat in winter, in order to achieve certain protections for what was within.

Quote from Index» Terraformation» Jupiters Realms, posts #27 & 28:

I am interested.


The GCR is protected for for Europa, and maybe Io?  How about Ganymede and Callisto?

Spacenut how about cycling spaceships to escort protected ships through the fields for most of the way?

All of the gas giant plants are behind the solar snow line, even Jupiter.

How about protective "Ice Boxes".  That is envelopes built primarily of water ice?

I guess a more proper term is "Frost Line". … physics%29

Frost line (astrophysics)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
In astronomy or planetary science, the frost line, also known as the snow line or ice line, is the particular distance in the solar nebula from the central protostar where it is cold enough for volatile compounds such as water, ammonia, methane, carbon dioxide, and carbon monoxide to condense into solid ice grains.

Each volatile substance has its own snow line (e.g. carbon monoxide,[1] nitrogen,[2] and argon[3]), so it is important to always specify which material's snow line is meant. A tracer gas may be used for materials that are difficult to detect; for example diazenylium for carbon monoxide.

The term is borrowed from the notion of "frost line" in soil science.

I had previously been interested in the value of Jupiter's magnetic field for space habitats to be embedded in it.  I was thinking of locations like Calisto, or a bit more out from Jupiter.  But "Ice Boxes" would grant more protection, so that perhaps Calisto and Ganymede might become accessible.

Sources of raw materials could then be Calisto, Ganymede, the Trojans, and the Asteroids, maybe even the terrestrials, but I think it would
be likely to get most locally.

An "Ice Box" would largely be composed of water ice, but could include fiber in the ice, to make it a bit like Pykrete.

There would be no reason why you could not coat the ice with some substance that would render the ice even more stable.

And contrary to what most people might think, I think that solar could be the energy source.  Simply use thin solar concentrating mirrors.
That may even be possible at Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto>Kuiper belt.  Of course best options are at Jupiter.

One may use Chevron walls, so that heat can escape from the "Box", but impactors are dealt with to some degree, and also radiation is impeded, and sunlight can enter the box.

And so, you could have spacecraft and spinning habitats inside of the "Ice Box".

Then some of these could have orbits that are a multiple of either Calisto, or Ganymede.

Someday, maybe even for Europa and Io.  Most likely only mining robots for Io.


It is so hard to get an image of the Chevron coverings for the windows of an O'Neil Cylinder!
OK, what is bellow with all the arrow pointers.  Imagine that what you want to allow to pass or want to block can be strongly controlled
by the structure below.  Sunlight, impactors, and radiation passing downward on this page.


Ideally only Sunlight getting through to this sentence.

Of course the geometry of the wall made of chevrons is not actually perfect as per engineering.

It is possible that if you query for "Chevron" something will turn up on this site.  I did deal with it previously in some post.

Done. … spacecraft

A champion of the cycling spaceship idea is the Apollo 11 astronaut Buzz Aldrin. Aldrin's vision is to have large cycling spaceships swinging permanently between the orbits of Earth and Mars. A cycling spacecraft in an elliptical orbit would transit from Earth to Mars and back again, permanently cycling between the orbits of the two planets. This approach could be used to put in place an interplanetary passenger transport system.

Of course we cannot likely use an "Ice House" cycling space structure sunward of the Frost Line.  However it should be OK for many of "Jupiter's Realms".

It could be that huge populations may exist in orbit of Jupiter and the other Gas/Ice Giants.


I guess I could amend my just previous post.

You could, perhaps use an "Ice Box", closer to the sun than the "Frost Line", but you would have to include an effective and reliable sun shade method.

So, going forward in time, perhaps there could be huge enclosures cycling from Earth to ?, providing hospitality support to spaceships and habitats enclosed within.

But not for a while I would think.

Mars, Ceres, and Callisto could provide the ice, I guess, maybe Earth>Hydrogen/Moon>Oxygen.


So, I think that "One at a time", where we do not fear to disrupt an ecosystem, we may strip mine ice off of these moons, to make "Overcoats" for habitations, some of which may spin to create synthetic gravity.

How these "Overcoat" habitations may buy rocky materials from the solar system, is mostly that they would be working at creating more habitats for humans, which they can sell as housing assets, and in some cases they may deliver some materials to more inner places in the solar system.

It may still be sensible to use solar energy in orbit of Saturn.  All it requires is a big enough concentrating mirror.

As for our Moon, it has the most predictable solar energy relative to the Earth and Mars.

So I see a very solar Moon, not so much Mars, but still some for Mars.

Our Moon will have an immense labor pool of virtual humans operating from Earth, and Robots as well.

To store solar energy for the nighttime, the Moon will be much easier than Earth.

Issac Arthur advises a block of basalt heated during the day.

I suggest from that, stone domes into which you may shine concentrated sunlight during the Lunar day, and harvest heat from all the time.

So, moons, are perhaps something to care about.


Last edited by Void (2021-11-21 12:55:01)

I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.


#2 2021-11-21 13:11:34

From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,471

Re: Moons of the solar system.

Void, this is an excellent new topic.

Previously, we established that a 1 microbar atmosphere on Earth's moon would provide protection against most micro-meteorites.  But it would offer negligible defence against space radiation.  It equates to a column density of about 60 grams per square metre on Lunar.  On bodies much further from the sun, there is less value in such a thin atmosphere, because sunlight is useless in supporting agriculture.  Hence, there will be few structures that cannot be constructed underground.  However, from studies of the Martian environment we know that an atmosphere with surface pressure 7 mbar on Mars is sufficient to cut cosmic ray dose by 50%, and to shield out entirely the most dangerous heavy ion radiation.

An oxygen atmosphere of 7 mbar pressure would be sufficient to prevent evapouration from ice covered lakes.  A layer of aerogel could separate a layer of surface ice from warmer water within the lake.  An aquatic ecosystem could be developed within the lakes.

Most of the lower mass moons in the solar system could never support dense atmospheres, because the scale height of the bodies is far too great.  A 1 bar atmosphere would stretch thousands of km into space.  But a thin atmosphere of a few millibars is more achievable and would allow aqua-forming.  An ionosphere confined by a magnetic field would reduce atmospheric escape.  The energy source for such an aqua-forming effort would be thermonuclear, probably using inertial confinement.  For some of the smaller solar system moons and dwarf planets, this is an achievable strategy.

Human settlements would be floated within the lakes.  For a body with 3% of Earth gravity, like Rhea, 1 bar pressure would be provided by 330m of water.  Cities would hang from surface floats, beneath the ice layer.  Cities would be weighted to achieve constant depth.  Waste heat from power supplies would be dumped into the lake, keeping it liquid.  LEDs would illuminate the lake with light optimised for photosynthesis.  This would support the aquatic ecosystem.

An ice layer 10m thick would provide about 3KPa over overpressure.  That is enough to prevent boiling at a water temperature of 20°C.  However, colder water would be more desirable, as supporting an ecosystem requires dissolved oxygen and other gases.  A temperature gradient would develope within the lakes.  Human habitats would be close to the top, where temperatures are warmer.  Aquaculture will take place at lower depths, where temperatures are colder and water is more heavily oxygenated.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-11-21 14:12:31)

"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."


#3 2021-11-21 16:45:16

Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,143

Re: Moons of the solar system.

Always a pleasure Calliban, many of the things you do, I cannot do.

So, it helps me.

I am looking to a future where in the colders, beyond the Solar System frost line, as I have said protective devices can be built, perhaps ~90% of ice, and then within those, habitats, and ships for humans.

I am looking to a future where actually the bulk of the ice would be stripped off of a moon such as Rhea, leaving just a suitable ocean, and to then tunnel into it's rock core to great depths, to retrieve many metals and perhaps fission produces.  Perhaps geothermal as well????

And then there would be so many other moons, and then the Kuiper Belt, Dwarf Planets, and then into the Oort cloud, and then to other dwarf planets around other stars.

Yes, I also like this.

We can hope that fusion will be come real eventually, but if nothing else it could be done with a cascade bomb, in some dwarf planet oceans???  Anyway I hope.


Last edited by Void (2021-11-21 16:52:43)

I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.


#4 2021-11-21 17:40:32

From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,471

Re: Moons of the solar system.

On Quaoar, an oxygen atmosphere with a temperature of 30K, would have a scale height of 26.86km.  If we assume an atmosphere that is 300km deep, say, then a 1mbar atmosphere at the surface will have a pressure of a few micro-bar at the top.  Containing a cold ionosphere with this sort of pressure is not challenging using a magnetic field.  The best situation would be to induce current in the plasma itself, which would avoid need for wiring.

"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."


#5 2021-11-22 08:04:43

Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,143

Re: Moons of the solar system.

Well it has a moon, so we can be on topic smile
Moon: Weywot

A 2006 model of internal heating via radioactive decay suggested that, unlike 90482 Orcus, Quaoar may not be capable of sustaining an internal ocean of liquid water at the mantle–core boundary.[46]
Moon: Vanth

Models of internal heating via radioactive decay suggest that Orcus may be capable of sustaining an internal ocean of liquid water.[37]

So, these things could be something like ~5 light hours away.  That's a lot easier than Proxima Centauri b.

Still, it will be crazy hard.

Fusion powered spacecraft very much of use if possible.

Still with an energy source available, I am guessing it might be done.


Last edited by Void (2021-11-22 08:15:06)

I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.


#6 2021-11-22 12:08:24

Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,143

Re: Moons of the solar system.

CO2 Traps on the Earth's Moon Polar areas: … -time.html

I found the above article today, and so then I did a query,
"Carbon in the moons polar deposits" … 60981.html … old-traps/ … 21GL095533 … -time.html

------- … t_lcross2/

In addition to water, the plume contained "volatiles." These are compounds that freeze in the cold lunar craters and vaporize easily when warmed by the sun. The suite of LCROSS and LRO instruments determined as much as 20 percent of the material kicked up by the LCROSS impact was volatiles, including methane, ammonia, hydrogen gas, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide.

So, we upgrade the Moon quite a bit.  That would not indicate that we do not do a full Mars effort at all.  It just shows that bootstrapping a solar economy will be easier.

By capturing the "Frost Line", I believe that the human race will have great riches.

And so, Earth<>Moon, Earth<>Mars, and then from those to the Jupiter Relm's.

While, just having the Moon and Mars would be grand, I believe that the Jupiter Relm's are perfect for the next stage of human development.

Taking apart at least Callisto, (In Part), vast amounts of habitation could be created.  And it is close enough to the sun for solar, but far enough away where the people will likely seek various types of nuclear energy.

And in time the Moon may have vast tunneling in it, and may send metals outward on photon propulsion, and receive back things they desire.

The Earth and robots will provide lots of labor production, per lower latency telepresence on the Moon, and actual presence.

I think that slice of the solar system, from Earth/Moon, to Jupiter and it's companion objects, will do much to foster a civilization which will eventually go further out.


Last edited by Void (2021-11-22 12:19:06)

I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.


#7 2021-12-03 20:23:18

Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,143

Re: Moons of the solar system.

I am thinking about Phobos and Deimos tonight.  And, of course, the parent body Mars.

First of all, I read tonight that Phobos may be up to 30% Void space. 

So, can we inflate Phobos and/or Deimos?

Is it smooth or chunky peanut butter?

Probably chunky, with the big chunks towards the center.

Supposing that were true, could we make a digger that would have wheels counter-rotating as a biting mouth to drill down to a big chunk?

That is sort of a swimming thing swimming through the dirt, a breaststroke sort of thing???

Then if you found the big chunks/slabs, could you anchor them to each other?  Then could you inflate things against those to lift the dirt up and create a pressurized Void space(s)?

So then make a shell of solar panels around this thing, to more-or-less retain the fines.

And with bubbles between and outside of the chunks, make a blanket of fines, that is radiation shelter, and also thermal shelter.

And the Bubble Voids within to host humans and their machines?

One or both moons may have Hydrated minerals, and if not, Mars is available to get what you need.

So, in this version, Mars would have settlements where materials would be extracted, but Phobos with Deimos might be the true civilization.

By some methods it is easier to connect to the Earth than Mars proper.  Ion Drive, Plasma Bubble, Ballistic Capture, and aerocapture to orbit, and finally just Mars direct and a bump up to orbit.

If a sufficiently large bubble were created in one of the moons, then synthetic gravity would be available.

And, of course, if humans and their children cannot be healthy on Mars long term, then this would be the path to take.

And a good rehearsal for the Asteroid Belt and Trojans.


Last edited by Void (2021-12-03 20:40:30)

I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.


#8 2021-12-04 19:24:51

Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,143

Re: Moons of the solar system.

I think I spoke a bit poorly.

I desired to indicate that I think that Phobos and Deimos can be closer to the Earth/Moon subsystem, by means of certain types of propulsion methods.  Also, I did not indicate photon driven propulsions.  Of course many of these are for materials deliveries from the Earth/Moon to Phobos/Deimos/Mars orbital, and of course Mars as well at times.

I am in favor of looking into all three of the worlds that Mars/Phobos/Deimos represent.

If it turns out that humans can be healthy enough even if born and grown on Mars, then much more should go to Mars, otherwise it might be proper for a while to consider Mars to be in support of Mars orbital activities, in a major way, until Mars therapies can be created that improve human health on Mars itself.  The great hope I have is that at least adult humans can work in the actual Martian environment for prolonged periods, or even all the time.  But that needs proof.

Dr. Zubrin does not so much approve of building worlds, say from the materials of the Earth or Moon.  He does believe in Mars direct, and I consider that to be a major tool.

Curiously, Musk wants Mars as his major desire, but Bezos wants built synthetic worlds, but around the Earth.  As I see it, it may be quite desirable to take a look at building partly artificial worlds inside of Phobos and probably Deimos as well.

We have the potential for Phobos, to perhaps build a magnetic shield for Mars, and also to drop tethers into the atmosphere.  Others, including Dr. Zubrin have seemed to suggest that it may be possible to pick objects up off of the surface of Mars with such a "Skyhook".  I hope so, but I would just settle for being able to pull atmospheric gasses up to Phobos, as Phobos has Silicate materials at least and maybe Hydrated minerals.  Ditto for Deimos.

Obviously, Hydrogen should be available to bring up with SSTO ships.  So, with those abilities, you can likely have the full spectrum of materials in Mars orbits, that you would need for a civilization.

But I also want to create a Hydrosphere on Mars, even if it is ice and armored methods.  It should also be possible that food could be taken to orbit by SSTO or maybe even Skyhook.

And as I said in a previous post, this is then a rehearsal for the Asteroid belt and Trojans, and after that Callisto.


Last edited by Void (2021-12-04 19:33:44)

I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.


#9 2021-12-04 19:34:55

Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,143

Re: Moons of the solar system.

Since I mentioned SSTO for Mars, in the previous post, I am wondering about the Neutron Rocket for Earth, the 1st stage.

Could it be modified to be a SSTO for Mars?

In reading Robert Zubrin's materials, somehow, I got a ~~~Notion of how hard it is to enter a planet's atmosphere by different methods.

Where he had speeds, I decided on numbers, right or wrong.

I have 8.0 to enter the Earth's atmosphere from orbit, I think.

I have 6.5 to enter the Mars atmosphere, from interplanetary space.

I have 4.0 to enter the Mars atmosphere, perhaps from a low orbit of Mars.

So, if 8.0 were converted to 1.0.

Then 6.5 converted to .65

And 4.0 converted to .40

This, I think is proportional.

I want to do the above even if it is somewhat in error, so that I can add a couple of other things.

I have the notion that for the Super Heavy, the maximum stress is 1/3 of what the stress is for the Starship to land on Earth.

So, for the Super Heavy to land, the stress level might be about .30, and of course that is a 1st stage.

And for the Starship to land on Earth again the stress level would be 1.0

I may well have these wrong, and I do understand that there are many stresses, I guess I am just trying to get a feel for relative trouble for these various actions that might be attempted.

A modified Neutron Rocket, then, I would presume will have a potential stress level of .33 landing on Earth, however, it has more surface area per unit of volume and mass.

So, then perhaps with some modifications it might survive an entry from low Martian orbit to the Martian surface, because that stress level is .40 for Starship but Neutron will have a better surface area situation.

However Neutron is also of composite's, which then requires a better heat shield, at least for the engine compartment, presuming that that would be the entry mode, rather than skydiver method for Starship.  But a composite will have less dry mass, not counting the heat shielding methods, so less dry mass to slow down, (Not counting the heat shielding methods.

As for the engines themselves, they may lend themselves to "Active Cooling".  So, then maybe the engine compartment might use that to a degree?  Something 3D printed with channels for the flow of Methane?


Yes, I am Mr. Speculation and with quite a Degree in B.S. 

Still, I will go on.

If, in this imaginary ship, we kept the "Fairing's Blossom", and added foldable parachute materials between the petals, could the "Blossom" open up appropriately on descent, after the hot phase was over, and create a reduced terminal velocity?

Of course, the "Fairing Blossom" would have to be appropriately strong, which might add dry mass.

The Martian atmosphere is of course quite thin, so you might get away with it if you opened it gradually on descent.

It would be kind of like an upside-down umbrella.

Then of course rocket engines would have to finish it down to the surface successfully.  1/3 g though.

It is also possible that the "Wake?" of the rocket exhaust might splash up to the upside-down umbrella, and help in the landing.

Of course, to get a Neutron to Mars you would first have to put it on top of a booster stage to get it to LEO.


You would be mistaken if you thought I was against Starship.  I just want some smaller ships as well.  It might be a nice Moon rocket as well.  Lunar Starships could do some heavy grunting, and also make shelters both on the Moon and Mars, but some smaller ships would be welcomed by me, a Pseudo-Neutron, and a Mars, Terran-R.

Starships of the depot sort could refuel them in LEO and around Mars.


Last edited by Void (2021-12-04 20:00:33)

I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.


#10 2021-12-05 10:53:47

Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,143

Re: Moons of the solar system.

I have done some more of what I consider thinking about a modification of Neutron to be used for Mars<>Phobos<>Deimos<>Low Martian orbit.

The general shape of the proposed Neutron is sort of a cone, about like the Apollo capsule, but of course much steeper.

I guess, for Mars, I would think to modify the engine compartment to be of Metal, with some consideration of stainless steel.  I would think that perhaps it could indeed have fluid ducts built into it like a liquid rocket engine, and maybe the drainage from it could be routed through the rocket engines as an output.  Maybe even then supporting a thrust by combustion with Oxygen?

Since it has a relatively small aerobrake footprint, maybe the ship would somehow be made to dwell in the Martian sky for longer, to get more value out of this aerobraking device?

So, the engine compartment/Legs/Engines would all be spongy metal, that is with a circulation system in them for cooling the metals and yet expanding gasses to exhaust through the engines, which of course may be gimbaled.

The Engine compartment itself would likely have heat shield over the metal as well.

I have been thinking about landing pads for this.  I have wondered about solid pads with a layer of gravel/sand/dust.  That is the legs then pushing through the layer, to seat on the firm buried landing pad.  Sort of a dirt shock absorber, and in a way, a to stabilize the ship after touch down.  The legs embedded in dirt, but with an even, base in the buried pad to discourage a topple.

How you deal with landing on unprepared ground?  Well, you then get what you get, I guess.

If the legs penetrate the ground in an even fashion to each other, maybe the engine compartment bell serves to stabilize the ship.  Maybe not.

If this ship were made for Mars, and a level of stress of say ".40", to enter from Low Martian Orbit, to the surface, then it would not be suited for an interplanetary arrival, as that stress would be about ".65".  (See the previous post).

I have already specified in the previous post, that this thing would most likely have to be given a boost by a booster rocket to LEO.

Then to get it to Mars, you either put it into the Cargo hold of a Starship, or put it on a "Barge", using some type of electric/solar propulsion.  The electric could also be Nuclear Fission.  I am thinking things that emit an ion propulsive method, or sail on the solar wind or on Solar Photons.  However, a Ballistic capture method might also work, to make sure that the ship did not get stressed more than ".40".

Returning to Phobos, I anticipate that unlike Mars, it may be possible to have a Nuclear Fission engine, that is activated in High Earth orbit, and works its passage to the Martian/Phobos/Deimos subsystem.   In the case of Mars, landing a "Hot" reactor would be lots of trouble, especially if you are going to land it to one of your surface bases.

However, for Phobos or Deimos or an Asteroid, it seems to me that you could build a radiation shield that it could be put into.  Maybe a sort of Metal cup, and in the cup's walls regolith.   Maybe with a lid, however you have to have radiators that point to the cold of the Universe.

So, then you could have electric power from the Fission Reactor, that would help to get a load, including itself from A>B, and then when arriving at "B", plug it into an electric grid for Phobos.

I think it might be possible.


I have previously suggested that solar panels could earn their passage, in a similar way, helping to get themselves and a load to the Mars system.  In this case possibly to the Martian surface, via Starship.


Last edited by Void (2021-12-05 11:19:28)

I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.


#11 2021-12-05 11:41:57

Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,143

Re: Moons of the solar system.

I just realized that an engine compartment heat shield, that also assists the engines, would actually be a way of recapturing some of the energy of the travel of the spacecraft, to slow the spacecraft down.  And the plume from the engines would also be shielding for the engine compartment.

This of course is already done at parts of flight for the Falcon 9 1st stage.  At least the plume shielding thing.  But for Earth, the use of fluids to protect the craft is a cost.  It has to be measured as precious.

But for Mars, is it the same?  You actually may have Oxygen from Phobos and Deimos, and perhaps Carbon.  You certainly could have Hydrogen from Mars with a SSTO, delivery in a .38 gravity field, so the priorities could change.  You might use more plume protection on re-entry.

Again, turning rocket speed into molecule vibrations with such an engine compartment and engines, and then involving it in a combustion process, to help decelerate the vehicle, while also providing a protective plume.

I think I am not far off.....


Last edited by Void (2021-12-05 11:43:27)

I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.


#12 2021-12-05 13:00:20

From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 24,442

Re: Moons of the solar system.

Resource repost
I was reminded by RB's interest in making use of the moons in our solar system

REB wrote:

I added each worlds mass to the chart. That makes it a little more interesting.

World..........Diameter (km)..  Gravity (G). .  Mass (kg)


#13 2021-12-12 19:43:59

Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,143

Re: Moons of the solar system.

Lots of smaller objects.

I have been wondering about putting a "Tent" on Phobos, or Deimos, or some other asteroids.

I recall Isaac Arthur mentioning Harpoons for such objects.  Additionally if a big slab of rock could be accessed, then anchors in that eventually.

I suppose a tent would have some value.  If you could put things inside, then they will better tend to stay there.

Also thermal changes inside would be reduced.

You might attach solar panels to the outside of the tent. 

A thing of interest would be if you could embed most of a starship into the regolith.  Setting that up, a tent may retain the regolith "Splashed" in the result.

Depending on the size of the tent, perhaps two starships could be arranged to rotate around the exposed end of the embedded starship.

After that, I suppose building exercise rooms in the spinning starships, which would have radiation protection from "Bags, or boxes" of regolith.

I do also think to use magnetics to navigate around these objects as they likely have magnetic materials in them.

Perhaps the tent itself could have a magnetic anchor that makes it cling to Phobos or another world.

Perhaps a magnetic field strong enough to help protect from GCR.

It would be a start.

We, or just me, do think now that there will be many reasons to work with the Martian moons.


Last edited by Void (2021-12-12 19:51:02)

I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.


#14 2021-12-15 12:47:22

Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,143

Re: Moons of the solar system.

I could an might include this into other topics. … M%3DHDRSC3

Here of course I am interested in moons.  Specifically Phobos and Deimos.

It is unknown how Hydrogen may have become bound to them, if at all.  There are those who propose ice inside of them.
It might be possible, if the rate of accumulation was high enough to counter loss.

It could be that their might be a Hydrogen/water vapor content inside of the porous moons.  Or bonded to minerals, as this process is expected to have been going on since the beginnings.

Of course the thing to say, is we don't know, but should find out.


They have not addressed the impact of the solar wind on atmospheres.

Venus, Earth, Mars, different conditions.

But before I have said that we might not trust the amount of heavy Hydrogen on Mars, to indicate the total loss of water to space, as I have a feeling that the solar wind well may have donated Hydrogen with heavy Hydrogen in it to Mars, and it may have selectively removed normal Hydrogen at a rate faster than the removal rate for Heavy Hydrogen.

It will be interesting to try to figure out where the Hydrogen in the Clouds of Venus has come from?  The interior?
The solar wind?  Those seem the likely choices.  But a question must be asked:  "If the solar wind has been taking Hydrogen away from Venus, how come we are alive to se the very last of it in the clouds? 

The point being, that it is more likely that it is being replenished in some way.


Last edited by Void (2021-12-15 12:55:35)

I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.


#15 2022-01-14 09:08:54

Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,143

Re: Moons of the solar system.

I guess I will put this "Orphan" here:
Quote from Post #6 of..."Index» Not So Free Chat» Void Postings"

I will need to dispute that cold is not available on the Moon.

Similar to putting a sunshield to protect a spacecraft from heat, a shadow created by a properly insulating sunshield, will produce a cold shadow that is in communication with the deep cold of the sky of the universe.

Probably not the most efficient method to obtain this to a machine would be to create an Anti-Heliostat.  It would simply point a cup shaped well insulated surface away from the sun at all times.

In reality with excellent engineering, it might be possible to use Heliostats as radiators in just such a fashion.  While they would bounce most photons off of them to a target receiver, their properly insulated "Dark Side" might be at very cold temperatures.  Should it be desired to do a fluid method heat engine, then this might work OK.

Not using a heat engine might be fun on the Moon or Mercury or Ceres, for instance.  Suppose a brick cube with very thick walls.  Put windows on the East and West faces.  Thermally insulate the East, West, and Top Faces.  Put Anti-Solar Cells on the North and South Faces.  The sun is virtually completely in some form or East or West, and between them overhead on the Moon.  So, the North and South Faces are always in shadow.  Now with Heliostats to the East and West, shine concentrated light into the windows of the East and West Faces.  It could be that in the interior of the cube, you would have true solar cells that can endure the concentrated heat.  There exist such, we have discussed them.

The Walls of the Cube should be very thick, and perhaps the floor as of a thermally conductive material also rather thick.  For the top/ceiling, a thickness that can be endured by the cost of the devices to support it.

Hot Solar Cells:  (We have looked at this before). … solar.html

So now imagine a stone box that gets hot to 800 degrees C....

In experiments, the new absorbers were shown to operate at a temperature of 800 degrees Celsius and to absorb light of wavelengths ranging from 300 to 1750 nanometers, that is, from ultraviolet (UV) to near-infrared wavelengths.

"MIM resonators absorbing in the spectral region from UV to near-infrared can be directly employed in different applications, such as solar TPV [thermophotovoltaic] /TPV systems and solar thermal systems," Chirumamilla said. "Other potential applications include in so-called tower power plants, where concentrated solar light generates steam to drive a generator."

So, you may have solar cells operating at 1/2 of the orbit time of the Moon, if you are at the Equator.  You also have Anti-Solar Cells that operate 24/7 all the time most likely.

And if it seems as though, in the morning and afternoons, one set of heliostats is going to be idle, then consider that you may have a ring of boxes and heliostats around the equator or if you like a higher latitude ring of them.  In that manner our original Morning set for the first box, can twist around and become the Afternoon set for another stone box a distance away.

In fact, I believe that there could be many rings at the equator and then all the way up to the poles.

Better not to use water for heat engines on the Moon.  Rather this perhaps.

The windows may have both thermal shock resistant windows and also porthole coverings to put over them at night.

I think it is demonstrated that the Moon, Mercury, and Ceres, have vastly better possibilities for solar energy than does Mars, and yet this could be adapted to Mars as well, as long as a backup nuclear method also was in place on the grid(s).

What do you think?



Done. … &FORM=VIRE



Last edited by Void (2022-01-14 09:10:14)

I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.


#16 2022-01-14 20:03:58

From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,471

Re: Moons of the solar system.

Many of the icy bodies that you list in post #12 have ancient surfaces, with no large scale melting since the late heavy bombardment.  That means the ice will have been exposed to cosmic rays for billions of years.  The surface ice must be saturated with oxygen by now.  To release it, simply apply heat.  This will 8ncrease the length of hydrogen bins holding the water molecules tother, thereby allow oxygen to escape.  I don't think there will be enough gas in most cases to produce a breathable atmosphere.  Column density may approach that of present day Mars though.  Better that much atmospheric protection than none at all.

"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."


#17 2022-01-15 13:33:40

Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,143

Re: Moons of the solar system.

That is quite interesting.  It might suggest that also, upon arrival, humans might get some chemicals that will be sort of cheep of freebies.
That should be good.

At this time, I do support what you and Terraformer have been pondering per thin atmospheres, but also do now see some nice other things as well.  I would like to think about co-opting the phrase "World Engine(s)".

https://dccomicsextendeduniverse.fandom … rld_Engine

In fact, I am thinking of requesting that we have a topic named "World Engine(s)" in honor of Krypton.  Really, I think that would be a good topic.  I am going to suggest something that could have some newness.  I like the phrase "World" it sort of is useful for when astronomy geeks and some others.......get odd about categories such as Dwarf Planets.  The root word is Planet actually, so what is the fuss?

Anyway, if we have worlds, then of course people like you and I and indeed others will want engines for them.

The phrase is sort of pompous and will satisfy our ego's, I hope.

So, about the birds and the bees....:)

How about a "Honeycomb-Egg-Tower(s)"?

Well, we can do atmospheres, Magnetospheres, and then also Shells.  And where that can make sense and get us $$ which in the end of course represents live or die, but I want to add on Honeycomb-Egg-Tower(s).

I really don't trust plain old "Shell" methods, but shells offer some stuff that thin atmospheres might, and maybe even more.

See, I want a machine that can work for many situations with modifications, hence, "World Engines".

My notion is that these devices will work for many worlds, and perhaps in some sense every world except perhaps "Ice Giants", and "Gas Giants".  And that might include the Earth.

We should have a phrase called "Orbital Dependency" or something like that and then I could sort of argue that Mercury and Venus seem to be in an "Orbital Dependency".  The Trojans of Jupiter also in an orbital dependency of a different kind, and the moons of the solar system in another type of dependency.

I will be required to stick to Moons in this topic, but in passing I will indicate that this notion was hatched for Ceres as the first approximate instance of concept.

Alright then, if we had a moon about like Ceres, perhaps even made Ceres into a moon, if we were very powerful and a bit crazy, then we could do some things as I have begun to suggest.

If only chickens would lay cubic eggs, then they could be stacked better, but alright ellipsoid is apparently the term for shape of eggs.

So, imagine a Ceres like Moon, where humans built a large quantity of "Honeycomb-Egg-Towers" all over it.

Each one having the qualities of both an enclosure and a tower, each wall of each of them of an at least double wall honeycomb structure.

The honeycomb structure, being of some strength for the materials, somewhat like cardboard structure, but with individual cells.

For some small worlds it might be desired to use these as towers indeed, and to put an over-shell to encompass the entire structure.  In the outer solar system this could be a desired choice as you might not be interested in solar.  It would be protective of impactors, but also inhibit heat rejection.  But it could be a choice.

I think you might notice that such "Egg-Worlds" may have tunnels and ice-covered bodies of water under them so that they could all be in physical communication per humans and their machines and processes.

If there were moons in our solar system resembling the Earth, Mars, and Ceres, we might though not wish for an over dome.  We should want the input of Photons from the sun and also the cold sky of the universe to bath these "Honeycomb-Egg-Towers".

I have tried to do solar stone boxes for our Moon, but this now seems to be the much better bet.

I am very much in favor, of a magnetosphere for the Moon, and also a thin atmosphere.  But these devices if deployed would have at least one honeycomb layer, which imparts some kinds of strength, and would possibly deal rather well will most impactors.

These cells can be insulators, rejectors, boilers, and condensers.  We might put Anti-Solar cells on certain areas over some of these cells.

So, just normal Lunar sunlight could heat some of these to the boiling point, which could be a useful process.

But....We may think to do so many other things.  We will want lots of water for these.  So, we get it from where is possible.  Even from the Earth, as per Hydrogen, if that is the only way.  It would be worth importing, if it causes significant gain of wealth.  And of course, that would be the intention.  But water bodies like ore bodies may exist in the sub-surface of the Moon.  Or how about NEO's?

So, then these things having some of the characteristics of a tower, we may aim Heliostats at some portions of them, with reasonable care for being wise in applications of methods.

We may augment a boiler, with solar thermal methods, or we may have "Alon" based windows where we splash quantiles of concentrated light into them.  It can be noted that there is a good possibility that the top interiors of the Eggs can be much hotter than the possibly habitable lower sections.

Some U.V. and Visible and some Infrared light would enter.  As per reflection we might deal with the U.V. and then reflect some of the Visible light downward to where gardens may exist.  Such windows will be a point of danger, so engineering has to be very good.

So, down below we would have gardens and tanks of water, perhaps a floating raft for the gardens to be on.  The Lunar day to heat the water and use heat engine methods imposed into that otherwise there could be artificial gardens and no windows, or very few, just enough for human comfort.

But now into the Lunar night you have a big tank of warm to hot water, and anti-solar cells in place on some surfaces of this machine.  It is obvious that you could distill water during the Lunar night, and also generate electricity.  Machines freezing could be damaging, so of course that has to be handled.

My feeling is that this covers everything that an artificial world in orbit might cover except synthetic gravity.  But maybe we can put in centrifugal devices and improve space medicine as well.

I would like to see something like this done on an Earth-Like moon, if we had one. smile  I am still on topic.



Last edited by Void (2022-01-15 14:32:47)

I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.


#18 2022-01-16 08:37:20

Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,143

Re: Moons of the solar system.

I will goof around risking being "Out of topic", just a bit, or on the edge of such.
Just now, I am seeing the Moon-Luna, and its companion Earth, being linked to Mars/Phobos/Deimos, and then to Ceres.  So, actually 3 moons in this conversation. smile

It appears that Ceres could be a model for your thin atmosphere ponderings, as it does already have a thin water vapor atmosphere.

In 2017, Dawn confirmed that Ceres has a transient atmosphere of water vapor derived from exposed surface ice evaporated by the Sun.[97] Hints of an atmosphere had appeared in early 2014, when the Herschel Space Observatory detected localized mid-latitude sources of water vapor on Ceres, no more than 60 km (40 mi) in diameter, which each give off approximately 1026 molecules (or 3 kg) of water per second.[98][99][d] Two potential source regions, designated Piazzi (123°E, 21°N) and Region A (231°E, 23°N), were visualized in the near infrared as dark areas (Region A also has a bright center) by the Keck Observatory. Possible mechanisms for the vapor release are sublimation from approximately 0.6 km2 (0.2 sq mi) of exposed surface ice, cryovolcanic eruptions resulting from radiogenic internal heat,[98] or pressurization of a subsurface ocean due to thickening of an overlying layer of ice.[102] In 2015, David Jewitt included Ceres in his list of active asteroids.[103] Surface water ice is unstable at distances less than 5 AU from the Sun,[104] so it is expected to sublime if it is exposed directly to solar radiation. Water ice can migrate from the deep layers of Ceres to the surface, but escapes in a short time. Surface sublimation would be expected to be lower when Ceres is farther from the Sun in its orbit, whereas internally powered emissions should not be affected by its orbital position. The limited data previously available was more consistent with cometary-style sublimation,[98] though subsequent evidence from Dawn strongly suggests ongoing geologic activity could be at least partially responsible.[105]

Studies using Dawn's gamma ray and neutron detector (GRaND) reveal that Ceres accelerates electrons from the solar wind; the most accepted hypothesis is that these electrons are being accelerated by collisions between the solar wind and a tenuous water vapor exosphere.[106]

So, a question could be asked, "If a planetary magnetic field for Ceres may allow some atmospheric build-up?".

And might molecular Oxygen evolve and maybe be just a little easier to retain than water vapor?

And now I will do this Earth<>Moon<>Mars<>Ceres<>Callisto.
So, then Callisto, yet another Moon.

I am doing this as I think that it may be possible to do all of these, as they likely have access to the full spectrum of chemicals needed for human settlements, and for Starship.  However, adding in some sort of nuclear propulsion would help things out a lot.

And I don't agree with this articles title, I want the Moon and Mars and Ceres, and then just possibly Callisto. … laims.html

Forget Mars, welcome to Ceres: Humans may one day be living in a megasatellite habitat around the dwarf planet because its water and nitrogen make a much more suitable off-Earth civilization than the red planet, study reveals
A new study says to build a megasatellite habitat near the dwarf planet Ceres
Ceres sits in the asteroid belt located between Mars and Jupiter
The paper states the settlement would feature thousands of cylinder structures
These structures would each house up to 57,000 people and gardens
Settlers could mine raw materials from Ceres, specifically nitrogen
Mirrors would surround the outside of the habitat to collect energy from the sun

PUBLISHED: 18:27 EST, 19 January 2021 | UPDATED: 18:30 EST, 19 January 2021

Ceres could be a precursor to what to do to other worlds.  It could be having that "Mega-Satellite", and a Space Elevator, the first one, and perhaps a very thin atmosphere assisted by an artificial magnetic field.

I think that some of what might develop could be applied to the other worlds, but Ceres would be a good place to start.

For this world model, I do think that the bulk of agriculture could be on the surface of Ceres, rather than in the rotating orbital habitats.
I would like to consider the use of "Honeycomb-Eggs" as both farms and power plants.  Other means of power might be used, but in this case Heliostats may pass concentrated lights into Alon windows in these for it to be reflected inside.  Farms on the bottom.

I don't think I can do an egg shape in paint, but I will do something similar if I can for an illustration. … ape=square

Well, I really did bad on that one, don't have time to fix it.  Anyway, as I mentioned in the previous post, this could be a type of solar where you try to actually use the compatible photons to grow crops, but also collect as much of the heat from all the photons that can be exploited for the creations of molecular vibrations (Heat).

In the bottom of the device is a chamber which could be filled with water to heat or cool.  Over that could be soil.  If Tesla's robots work out most of the work would be done by them, but humans in the orbital habitats or on Ceres itself could give directions.

As I have said, this model could be best started on Ceres in my current opinion, but we might like to expand it to Mars, and Luna, and perhaps even Callisto.

It is quite possible that other than the windows, the exposed surface of the "Egg(s)" would be covered with Anti-Solar Cells, which are not as efficient as solar cells, but which would operate on a suitable temperature differential, all the time.


Last edited by Void (2022-01-16 09:19:29)

I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.


#19 2022-01-16 10:03:28

Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,143

Re: Moons of the solar system.

Well, I should get my other stuff done, but just a little more.

I think that with this machine which combines, greenhouse, solar collector, and radiator, water distillation device, it may be likely to want to have a saying such as "Cold is Gold".  A gift from the universe.

And so, a gift: … &FORM=VIRE

I like the song, mostly.  I guess the video is interesting as well.  We will have to do something about Elon's robots, it looks like.

A few things to note:
-If you did have a garden of vascular plants at the bottom, they would function like an evaporator, with the upper portions of the enclosure then serving as a condenser, while generating power with anti-solar cells.
-Because of that the best locations for this will be where you can get both sunlight and cold in the most productive quantities.
-This could be in the Great Baisin in many places, and also in general the Northern United States.

-For Mars and other worlds, I can anticipate many places.  But you might be dealing with ice buildups which could be good and bad.  Bad if a chunk falls on you, good, as you would be using a phase change to generate power.  And then still fresh water to flow down the insides of the walls.


Last edited by Void (2022-01-16 10:13:56)

I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.


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