Frozen Food Preservation at 50 Kelvin

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-06 18:46:46

The scientists and engineers who designed, built, launched and successfully deployed the James Webb telescope advanced the technology of cooling to a significant degree. As of 2022/01/06, it is NOT yet clear that the design objective of the sunshade will be reached.

50 degrees Kelvin was an ambitious goal, and while theory says the multiple layered radiating cooler ** should ** work, it is only the proof in space that will determine if theory plus engineering lead to success.

However, on the optimistic assumption that the objective of 50 Kelvin is reached, I am launching this new topic.

The designer of Large Ship has expressed doubt that frozen food can be stored for an extended period of time.

I expect it will turn out that food preserved at 50 Kelvin will last for thousands of years, if it is not destroyed by cosmic radiation.

One thing I am confident will NOT happen: there will be no microbial growth going on while food is preserved at 50 Kelvin.

This topic is available for NewMars members to report upon experiments along these lines, and perhaps to report on additional applications of "deep space" refrigeration beyond food preservation.

A post or two about preserving human remains for proper "Earth" burial would not be out of line for this topic.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-01-06 20:10:45

Did you know that in theory and experiment there may be a such thing as negative Kelvin, temperature below absolute zero?
https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/573458
I wonder how long a food would last that is frozen to less than 'Absolute Zero'?
https://www.mpg.de/research/negative-ab … emperature
'Matter at negative absolute temperature has a whole range of astounding consequences: with its help, one could create heat engines such as combustion engines with an efficiency of more than 100%. This does not mean, however, that the law of energy conservation is violated. Instead, the engine could not only absorb energy from the hotter medium, and thus do work, but, in contrast to the usual case, from the colder medium as well.'

Another possible use rather than freeze food like mentioned above would be in the chemistry of rockerts or in computers, maybe we will be able to write info into the electron itself. Supercomputers consume sometimes as much power as a small city, the cooling can be used on things such as conductors whose resistance decreases by change in pressure like metallic gas or is gradually less resistant as its temperature is lowered even down to near absolute zero. I remember one theory that said Speedy supercomputers should be shipped to other space to maybe some place like average surface temperature is about 90.6 K which would have no problem keeping your computers cooled down. Quantum computing is said to be a new science area of super computing and can become part of security, a a type of computation that harnesses the collective properties of quantum states. More advances have been made for constructing quantum computers. In particular dieas for quantum computing platforms based on superconducting qubits such as superposition, interference, and entanglement. Various new states or models of quantum computation exist, however the most popular models incorporate the concepts of qubit and computer makers can explore these new states or quantum gates to perform calculations, superconducting qubit archetypes are the phase, charge and flux qubits, though many hybridizations exist Transmon, Xmon, the different Spins, the Fluxonium, the new normal state of electrons which were fermions get replaced by a Quantum state or Quantronium, the notable application of quantum computation is for attacks on cryptographic systems that are currently in use. Metallic hydrogen, if you ad some sort of pressure or maybe cooling to make it chemically metastable at ambient pressure and temperature could be used as one of the more powerful chemical rocket fuel, it is stated large planets with powerful magentic fields such as Jupiter and Saturn must contain a considerable proportion of metallic hydrogen, a method called liquid immersion cooling would do cooling passively, using only a fraction of the energy used in an air-cooled system or have some reverse cycle system where a liquid refrigerant is used and as pipes heat up, the heat evaporates the refrigerant. Inside the super-quantum computer scifi thing built in the future, radiation energy breaks pairs into quasiparticles, these can break to low-energy phononsi and t is thought errors can be created by tiny bits of heat that will cause decay and other errors generated by gamma and cosmic rays I don't understand it, Quantum Mechanics at the best of times for me it reads very exotic. molecules can get hotter or cooler were heated or destroyed in the process, called "bad" collisions. but I know I have read that freezing some product below 'Absolute Zero' or Super Cooling some Quantum computer thing might no longer be scifi
http://theinfolist.com/php/SummaryGet.p … _computing

We've had a numbers of threads here on Quantum spooky science before
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1858
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6829
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2405
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3362

There are some interesting food and frozen stuff threads here
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9881 , http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6234
Thermoacoustic Cryogenic - Better, Cheaper, Slower
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3486

I currently have a thread running called 'Cosmos Pulsars, Blackholes, Zero Kelvin, Gravity Wave, DarkEnergy' I think I mentioned Hubble and the JWST in it but the thread has got so strange now I have no idea where its going to go.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-01-06 20:15:53)

Steve Stewart · 2023-01-02 07:51:48

This is a Science Friday topic about frozen food.

https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/ … transcript

The article states:
Have you ever pulled a long-anticipated pint of ice cream out of the freezer, only to find the strawberries crunchy and the normally creamy substance chalky and caked with ice? Freezer burn, a phenomenon caused by water in food crystallizing into ice inside the ice cream or fruit or meat during freezing, is a menace to taste buds, a driver of food waste, and even damages some of the nutritional benefits of food. And it’s always a risk as long as food preservation relies on very cold temperatures. Even flash-freezing, which works much faster, can still create small ice crystals.
But United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) food scientists, working with a team at the University of California-Berkeley, have a method that could help solve this problem. Normal food freezing, called isobaric, keeps food at whatever pressure the surrounding air is. But what if you change that? Isochoric freezing, the new method, adds pressure to the food while lowering temperature, so the food becomes cold enough to preserve without its moisture turning into ice. No ice means no freezer burn. And, potentially, a much lower energy footprint for the commercial food industry: up to billions fewer kilowatt-hours, according to recent research.

Calliban · 2023-01-02 15:18:30

Isochoric storage. That's a 'cool' technology :-)

Presumably the pressure will need to be sustained within whatever container the food is within. On Mars, average temperature is -60°C. Presumably, we could store food indefinitely in steel pressure vessels stacked on the surface, covered with a reflective layer.

One way of avoiding famine caused by system failure, is to have several years worth of staple food stored. The cold and dry environment of Mars should make that relatively easy to achieve. Dry foods, like grains, powdered potato, dried legumes, etc, and frozen foods, could actually be stored in non-pressurised buildings on Mars surface. Provided that food is sealed to prevent it from drying out too much, the buildings themselves need not be sealed or pressurised. We need them to keep out dust a prevent large temperature swings. But it should be possible to build them out of brick, with a curved, vaulted roof. A layer of dirt over the top would isolate the inside from temperature variations.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-01-02 15:22:17)

kbd512 · 2023-01-02 16:15:12

The surface of Mars is the ultimate freeze dryer and radiation-based bacteria killer. Radiation-treated freeze-dried food should store for up to 25 years. The colony could go through a few ups-and-downs, food-wise, and still survive using freeze drying and canning. I agree that stockpiling food is the best way to assure long-term survival. However, I think that food waste is likely to be the greatest problem for the colonists. A lot of food is wasted on Earth, even in places where people still starve to death. In western countries, there are less severe consequences to this wastage, but the problem is pretty significant here.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-02 16:15:29

For Calliban re #4

It is good to see your interest in and support of this new contribution by Steve Stewart!

We all need to read the underlying research before we head off too far on tangents.

I would like to call attention to the assumption that pressure must be maintained after freezing. I predict you (and all of us) will learn that is NOT the case.

I expect that we will learn that the pressure is needed only during the fast freezing of liquid containing foods, and that once the desired frozen state is achieved, the material will remain solid for as long as it is kept at the target temperature.

I am ** very ** hopeful this research will prove practical, because home freezing can be improved greatly, let alone the vast commercial activities around the world.

I am ** also ** wondering if this technique might have some role to play in hibernation, but how far the pressure concept can apply is something we will (hopefully) all be learning in the days ahead.

(th)

Steve Stewart · 2023-01-07 18:51:10

Here's another article from Science Friday about frozen food.
According to the USDA frozen food will last indefinitely.
Per the chart below, food (particularly meats) do not taste as fresh after a certain date, but they are still good.

Spoiler Alert! When Does Food Actually Go Bad?

SpaceNut · 2023-01-07 19:10:29

Somethings will keep even longer if fully cooked as well, while others keep even longer canned but for the most part, we are talking plastic packaging rather than metals. Plus, we can always have freeze dried and pretend we are camping.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-07 21:50:36

For SpaceNut re #8

Perhaps we need a topic that is more comprehensive than this one. What I have in mind for this topic is a focus upon frozen foods.

The recent Science Friday broadcast highlighted by Steve Stewart appears to support the theme of this topic. While I have not yet made the time to listen to the broadcast, I get the impression that the creation of ice crystals during freezing can be prevented by keeping food under pressure during freezing.

I am hoping members of the forum will investigate further, and post their discoveries in this topic.

In your post #8, you have listed a variety of food preservation techniques other than freezing. When I searched for topics containing the words "food" and "preservation" only two showed up.

In order to help to make the forum useful to future readers, some connection between the posts and the topics would be helpful.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-08 07:52:42

some of the crop and other topics with food growing has some of these brought up in them as part of mission planning. As it is realized that fresh is so short term even frozen.

Steve Stewart · 2023-01-08 10:08:00

Caliban #4
One way of avoiding famine caused by system failure, is to have several years worth of staple food stored. The cold and dry environment of Mars should make that relatively easy to achieve.

Agreed. It would seem if food were frozen using "Isochoric freezing" at describe by Science Friday in comment #3, it would last indefinitely per Science Friday comment #7. It would seem before the first humans ever set food on Mars, they could have a supply of frozen food already stored on Mars, prior to the astronauts leaving Earth.

kbd512 #5
I agree that stockpiling food is the best way to assure long-term survival. However, I think that food waste is likely to be the greatest problem for the colonists. A lot of food is wasted on Earth, even in places where people still starve to death.

This is true. In Science Friday comment #7 host Ira Flatow states:

Studies show that more than 80% of Americans misinterpret date labels and throw food away prematurely in order to protect their family’s health. That adds up to $218 billion worth of wasted food each year. And, yes, it also contributes greatly to greenhouse gas emissions.

If a greenhouse/growing area on Mars included a rotating composter, wasted food or vegetable scraps could be composted and turned into fertile soil. Aerobic composting does use oxygen, but not near as much as a greenhouse full of plants would produce. One of the advantages of soil over hydroponics, is that it enables this type of recycling.

Tahanson #6 and #9

Yes, air pressure is only needed during freezing and is not needed after the food is frozen.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-08 12:14:39

For Steve Stewart re new freezing discovery ...

As I recall your bio, you have experience as an electrical engineer. The freezing discovery you showed us via the Science Friday broadcast, will apparently require a new kind of freezing container, and the market for the container should amount to billions of monetary units.

The engineer who is doing the research may work for the government (along with the scientist) so there may be a possibility of public patents on the process.

In any case, rapid movement of design of containers for home freezing using this method would seem indicated.

The design of containers would (most likely) fit into the "design patent" category.

What I am imagining is a lid shape with a cone shape to squeeze liquid out at the rim, before screw clamps secure the food inside.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-08 12:21:23

This post is for all NewMars members ....

It is a guess on my part, but it seems likely every current member of the forum has access to a home kitchen, with stove, refrigerator and a freezer.

If that is the case, anyone in the membership may be able to participate in experiments with the home pressure freezing method revealed in the Science Friday broadcast revealed to the forum by Steve Stewart.

If anyone has knowledge of the kind of specialty container that is needed, please post links or snippets here.

I'm finishing a successful test of home freezing of cooked meals using a traditional two container method. The containers held flavor and nutrient value for over one year.

The two container method did NOT use pressure, but instead performed freezing in the traditional way, with a layer of air at the top of the inner container. Ice crystals ** did ** form in the air space between the food and the top of the container.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-08 13:22:14

Google came up with some snippets about the pressure exerted by water when frozen ...

how much pressure does freezing water exert
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Freezing force of water: as the water-ice temperature continues to drop to 0°F the forces involved range between 25,000 psi and can continue to reach 114,000 psi.
Mechanics & Forces of Freezing Water, Effects of ice and ...https://inspectapedia.com › plumbing › Force_of_Freezin...
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The forces at play here are quite large ....

I'm wondering now if a frozen food sample can be removed from the container and stored in an ordinary plastic container, after the freezing operation is complete.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2023-01-08 13:50:08

Canadian government: Fridge and freezer storage

US government: Cold Food Storage Chart

Greek Cold Storage and Handling Association: Frozen Foods Handling & Storage

This table shows at very cold temperatures food can be kept for a very long time. Fatty fish without treatment has limited storage time, but everything else can be kept indefinitely when stored at temperatures of -30°C or colder. Both the Canadian and US government websites assume household freezers are at -18°C (0°F). You might want to tweak your chest freezer to -20°C (-4°F).

SpaceNut · 2023-01-08 15:02:16

In addition, for packaging vacuum sealing is another thing that needs to be done to remove oxidation that will be part of that deterioration of the food that is frozen.

I know that bags of chips are sealed after nitrogen is injected to displace oxygen.

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-16 15:10:48

For SpaceNut re #16

Thank you for the reminder of vacuum sealing as a technique for improving performance of food preservation methods.

Today's post is intended to follow up on the Science Friday broadcast brought to our attention by Steve Stewart....

https://www.leica-microsystems.com/scie … -freezing/

The article at the link above is long and quite detailed. It discusses rapid freezing and pressure freezing for scientific purposes.

I am interested in finding equipment and procedures for food preservation using the high pressure method.

The article at the link above reports pressures needed...

A new dimension in High Pressure Freezing
Based on the principle of Self Pressurized Rapid Freezing introduced by Leunissen and Yi [3] a new technology has been developed by Leica Microsystems. It uses the tendency for water inside a sealed specimen carrier to expand upon cooling, thereby generating pressure intrinsically instead of using an external hydraulic system. This pressure is likely to be the result of crystalline and low density ice formation within the sealed specimen carrier. To achieve pressure (2,010 bar) where the melting point of ice is lowered to 251 K (Kanno et al. [2]) 60 % of the water inside the specimen carrier needs to be converted to low density ice.

Those are likely to be a real test of home freezer containers.

If this technique is to move into the home kitchen, containers able to withstand over 2000 bar would appear to be required.

If anyone in the existing NewMars membership knows of such containers, please post in this topic.

If there is a reader not already a member who would care to help with this topic (or any topic) see Recruiting topic.

(th)

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Frozen Food Preservation at 50 Kelvin

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