Power Systems on Mars - Underground Thermal Energy Resources

Scott G. Beach · 2003-10-16 02:13:51

Mars probably does not have any underground oil or gas deposits. However, the extinct volcanoes on Mars indicate that in the past the interior of Mars was very hot. If the interior of Mars is still hot, martian settlers could use that heat to boil water, to generate steam, to spin turbines, and to generate electricity.

If martian settlements are going to be powered by underground thermal energy then it would be appropriate to build prototype martian settlements on Earth that are powered by underground thermal energy. Those prototype settlements would give people the opportunity to learn how to operate and maintain such power systems before they emigrate to Mars.

The United States Department of Energy has estimated that ?the thermal energy in the uppermost six miles of the Earth?s crust amounts to 50,000 times the energy of all oil and gas resources in the world!? A D.O.E. map of those geothermal (earth heat) resources shows that geothermal energy is widely available in the State of Nevada. Since Nevada has lots of inexpensive, Mars-like land, Nevada would be a good place to build a prototype martian settlement.

SpaceNut · 2021-12-31 20:31:29

Not sure hot dead the core of mars is but for earth we know we have a large surplus of geothermal; energy to provide power with.
Lawsuit seeks to block 2 geothermal power plants in Nevada northern high desert that they say will destroy a sacred hot springs and could push a rare toad to the brink of extinction.

The lawsuit filed by the Center for Biological Diversity and Fallon Paiute-Shoshone Tribe says the project would turn a “pristine and unique location of ecological value and spiritual significance” into an industrial site.
The lawsuit filed Dec. 15 accuses the Bureau of Land Management of illegally approving Ormat Technologies Inc.’s project in the Dixie Meadows about 100 miles (160 kilometers) east of Reno without the necessary environmental analysis.
The bureau said in announcing the project’s approval in November the two 30-megawatt geothermal plants would help Nevada meet its renewable portfolio requirement that the state’s utilities procure 25% of their energy from renewable sources by 2025.

Done with the utter most care and respect for the area the only thing other than the equipment used to make the power plant is the road for people to work at the site once built.

The center is the same group that won an endangered species listing earlier this year for a rare plant at the site of a proposed lithium mine 225 miles (362 km) southeast of Reno. Lithium is a key component of batteries for electric vehicles, a centerpiece of Biden’s energy strategy.
Reno-based Ormat filed a motion Dec. 20 seeking intervenor status in the case, citing its $68 million investment over 10 years in the project, which it said could be jeopardized by any delays.
“Even a few weeks of delay in construction of this project ... may spell disaster for the financial viability of the project,” the company said, pointing to a December 2021 deadline in its private power production agreements.

tahanson43206 · 2021-12-31 21:38:57

For SpaceNut re this topic brought forward from 2003...

I note that the post #1 contains a bandit... I don't know where that post is in the sequence 1-77,000, but it is in there somewhere. It will be repaired along the way. However, beyond ** that ** this is a very interesting topic (to me for sure) and I wonder that it did not have more traffic.

By purest coincidence, FriendOfQuark1 and I happened to talk about the potential of Yellowstone to power most of the US, if it were harnessed before the volcano blows it's top again. We agreed that pulling thermal energy out of Yellowstone might not prevent the volcano from blowing it's top, but it can't hurt!

Your report of the environmentalists acting to prevent collection of thermal energy is interesting for another reason! The link to the Tucson story you found a few days ago contains a report of an environmentalist attempting to block the desalination of sea water from the Sea of Cortez. One of the objections is one I agree with ... returning concentrated brine to the Sea of Cortez is a bad idea. However, the ** other ** idea was surprising. Apparently this individual thinks the Sea of Cortez gets its water from rain fall via the Colorado River. It must not have occurred to this individual that the Sea of Cortez is part of the Pacific Ocean, so any water pulled out of the Sea of Cortez by humans would be replaced from the Pacific Ocean.

In any case, thanks for bringing this long neglected topic back into view.

The original supposition, that the core of Mars might still be hot, seems to me to have merit, and eventually humans will design a probe or investigation method that will provide an answer for the state of the core.

It would require some work (and lots of energy of atomic power plants) to dig down far enough on Mars to get a benefit, but if there ** is ** heat in the core then the investment would (most likely) be worth it.

Speaking of digging down to pull heat from the core, in the case of Earth, FriendOfQuark1 said he'd investigated to see what it would cost to dig down far enough to pull heat from the mantle below Houston, Texas, and the answer was $12,000 (USD). He decided to pass up the opportunity.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-09-10 16:15:13

This stored heat source from the molten earth sure could create power and warmth for those that see winter cold.

Calliban · 2022-09-11 08:41:29

On Mars, mean temperature is 210K, although temperatures swing as low as 150K and as high as 293K. But we tend to need heat when it is coldest. Trying to pump heat from a cold source of say 200K, to a hot source of 300K, is very inefficient. The theoretical Carnot coefficient of performance is 2, with realistic COP of about 1.5. You may as well heat using resistance heaters.

If we are generating a lot of nuclear power, then waste heat can provide our heating. The other option is to store solar heat in insulated thermal masses or use geothermal heat. This could either provide direct heating or a thermal input into heat pump. In the second case, a heat pump with a cold source at 0°C and hot outlet of 30°C, would have a Carnot COP of 9 and practical COP of 6-7.5. As a source of power, a geothermal powerplant with a hot temperature of 273K and a condenser temperature of 220K, would have a Carnot efficiency of about 18°C and a practical efficiency of 12%. So the geothermal heat doesn't have to be boiling hot to be useful to us. Which is fortuitous, as Martian thermal gradient is weaker than Earth's.

tahanson43206 · 2022-09-11 10:04:26

For Calliban re #5

If you have a spare minute or two, please show your source for the assertion that Mars has a mean temperature of 210K.

I recognize that your exact wording was "on Mars"

This topic is not about "on Mars"

This topic is about "inside Mars"

To the best of my knowledge (which is necessarily limited) we have absolutely NO temperature data whatsoever regarding the interior of Mars.

The proposition advanced by Mr. Beach, in creating this topic, is that nuclear fission might be at work in the core of Mars, just as it is inside the Earth.

The fires that existed at one time are most assuredly banked, but they may still be present, and thus available for tapping by resourceful humans.

(th)

Calliban · 2022-09-12 06:03:20

TH, read this.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … gy_on_Mars

The geothermal gradient on Mars will likely be location specific, just as it is on Earth. However, the average geothermal heat flux for Mars is only about one third that of Earth. On Earth, away from plate boundaries, temperature rises about 29K per kilometre of depth. On Mars, it will be closer to 10K per km depth. If you are thinking of accessing sufficient temperatures to raise steam for power generation (>150°C) then you have a problem, because the depth at which these temperatures are reached is going to be much deeper than on Earth. Drilling becomes more expensive the deeper you go and the relationship is not linear. A 10km deep well will cost you a lot more than 10x a 1km well.

This is why I suggested using a heat pump. Temperatures of 0°C will be much easier to access than temperatures of 30°C. It may turn out to be much cheaper to pump heat out of a well at 0°C than try to access high heat for direct heating and power generation. This appears to be the case on Earth as well. Cold district heating uses local heat pumps to extract heat from a cold water network. This arrangement has much reduced capital costs than a hot water distribution system.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_district_heating

Last edited by Calliban (2022-09-12 06:09:58)

tahanson43206 · 2022-09-12 06:40:32

For Calliban re #7

Thanks for the link (which I'm planning to follow later today) and for your discussion.

The thermal gradient comparison makes sense (to me at least) and I agree with your projection if increased difficulty drilling with increased depth, regardless of the planet.

Checking topic: ... OK ... will proceed

My concern about heat pumps is that they are NOT a SOURCE of power. On the other hand, they are an excellent way of managing thermal energy. They all require external energy input, but they allow that limited resource to be leveraged to achieve much greater results (heated building) than could be achieved with that energy alone.

I am much more interested in acquiring power from underground resources.

In a post yesterday, SpaceNut showed us links to work that appears to have been done in the UK, to investigate various possible thermal energy scenarios. I noted (in scanning) that at least one of the links is about making steam, and I deduce that implies the ability to make power, because the thermal energy at the location chosen is sufficient to overcome the latent energy of water, and thus to transmute (?right term?) that random thermal energy into harnessable form.

As a result, I am hoping that the energy production capability will justify the additional expense/work/energy needed to reach the depths where that is possible.

i'm proposing you (everyone but you in particular) take a 1000 year view of this system. If you invest wisely today, you ** should ** be able to pass along to your descendants a productive resource good for hundreds of years.

Old Faithful has been spouting water in large quantities for (probably) thousands of years, and (barring a volcano) it will continue doing so.

I understand you are a practical man, for whom burning wood is a practical heating and power solution on an individual basis. What I'm hoping you will be willing to consider is a longer view, for which a greater investment by the community of which you are a part is justified.

(th)

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#1 2003-10-16 02:13:51

Re: Power Systems on Mars - Underground Thermal Energy Resources

#2 2021-12-31 20:31:29

Re: Power Systems on Mars - Underground Thermal Energy Resources

#3 2021-12-31 21:38:57

Re: Power Systems on Mars - Underground Thermal Energy Resources

#4 2022-09-10 16:15:13

Re: Power Systems on Mars - Underground Thermal Energy Resources

#5 2022-09-11 08:41:29

Re: Power Systems on Mars - Underground Thermal Energy Resources

#6 2022-09-11 10:04:26

Re: Power Systems on Mars - Underground Thermal Energy Resources

#7 2022-09-12 06:03:20

Re: Power Systems on Mars - Underground Thermal Energy Resources

#8 2022-09-12 06:40:32

Re: Power Systems on Mars - Underground Thermal Energy Resources

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