Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Oldfart1939 · 2021-08-10 09:29:18

I believe that I have commented elsewhere about my general approach, but here's a bit of amplification; I envision the original 17 person crew as the skeleton crew, in order to get a base up and running with safe habitation available for all members and sufficiently protected from Solar Flare events that there will be no log term health issues arising. Each of the groups I have described will burgeon into the industrial basis for long term habitation. A second Starship landing site could be congruent with the first, thereby doubling the hands available to build Marsbase 1. A I indicated there will be at least 2 to 4 supply vessels already landed or accompanying the first crewed lander. If we bring in a second crewed vessel in the same Hohmann transfer window, additional supplies will be needed for support. This means at least another 2-3 cargo ships with additional food and building supplies/heavy equipment. Musk has indicated that many of these cargo vessels would be making one-way flights to Mars and could be disassembled for building materials.

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-11 08:52:35

For OF1939 re #151

While comments in the companion are interesting for members to read, they do NOT advance the project in the primary topic.

I am hoping your recovery continues, and that a renewed flow of energy arrives on the scene, to help you deal with the challenges of moving the primary topic toward a paper, or perhaps an article for a general audience, with the ultimate objective being an actual expedition with actual members doing actual work on site.

The Companion is here to help members to help YOU to work on the Primary topic. The Administrators and Moderators are here to help you by insuring you are the sole author in the Primary topic.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-17 08:03:34

For OF1939 ....

Your most recent post in the Primary topic for Mars Expedition 17 was on: 2021-07-14 00:13:12

It is now more than a month since then.... I hope your recovery from a bout with Covid, and a stay in the hospital, is continuing.

Ultimately, I am sincerely hoping that your energy recovers to a ** higher ** lever than before the setback, because a series of small, steady steps can lead to a result. A post at the rate of 1 per week would be good to see, but even once a month is fine, if you are inspired to continue at the level of your earlier work.

(th)

Oldfart1939 · 2021-08-17 09:55:06

OK, I've been struggling along with a subsequent viral pneumonia which has sapped my energy level a lot. Trying to get back to my normal energy level has taken time.

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-17 10:02:41

for OF1939....

Good Grief!

Well, to the extent you have followers who are waiting for your insights, we (forum members and others) can play a useful role!

This Companion topic is a good place for anyone inspired to offer a word of encouragement.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-08-17 14:38:18

Your lungs are not requiring bottled o2?
my brother did, after getting out 2 months ago...Its taken that long to get it cut down so that its not needed all of the time.
Hoping for no further complications to your recovery.

On the note of starship fueling I am going to put my thoughts in the starship topic.

SpaceNut · 2021-09-28 17:42:52

I hope are doing better and well as my brother is doing much better.

NASA's fleet of Mars missions, from the Perseverance rover to the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, is going quiet for a few weeks in October. Every two years, Earth and Mars end up on opposite sides of the sun, a period called Mars solar conjunction

AAOVo9v.img?h=450&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

NASA will pause the sending of commands starting Oct. 2 and lasting until Oct. 16 for most of the missions. On the Martian surface, those missions include the Perseverance rover, Ingenuity helicopter, Curiosity rover and InSight Lander. The Maven spacecraft, Odyssey orbiter and Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter are in residence above the planet.

Something that I am sure in time will cause no issues for crew on mars by placing trojan satellites in the mars orbital path...

Oldfart1939 · 2021-09-28 21:16:44

Thanks to all who commented positively on my health situation. Breathing hasn't ever been the problem as much as the lasting fatigue. No energy and little motivation.

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-28 21:55:03

For OF1939 re #158

Glad to see your progress.

We can help with the motivation part. Part of recovery (at least as it seems to me) is having something to do that's a good match with capability. The tweaking SpaceNut's commissioned of the NewMars database has proven to be both interesting (because challenging) and long lasting. Your 17 person expedition is ambitious for a much younger person, so I expect/hope you'll set a pace that is comfortable at this point.

Never-the-less, it is (probably) good to know you have ** someone ** looking for you to put points on the board at least once a week.

The time frame for flights to Mars looks (to me at this point) like ...

2022>2023 - more exploration missions

2024-2025 - First significant robot equipment landing - fuel manufacture (for example)

2026-2027 - First expedition with a crew

Your vision of a 17 person crew has as much chance as anyone's at this point, and it has definite advantages over some concepts I've seen.

Update after GW Johnson post ... I was glad to see encouragement from Dr. Johnson for your return to battle with the 17 person vision.

I'd like to offer you a quota and a target.

For a quota (adjustable per your individual situation) I'll offer a goal of a minimum of 1 solid post per week.

For a target, I'll set a goal of having a paper ready for peer review by the end of 2021.

It has been many years since you wrote for peer review, and you've (undoubtedly) become rusty.

However, GW Johnson (admittedly much younger) is actively working on peer-review quality papers for his Mars and Refueling initiatives.

There is one more possibility ... your efforts would be amplified if we can bring an apprentice into your project.

Noah is an undergraduate who sent me a paper he wrote (complete with references) about his vision for an 8 person expedition.

Noah has not communicated with me since I expressed shock at his having omitted the references from his paper.

This omission was NOT intentional. It was accidental. But it caused me to veer off into a spiral of worry about plagarism, which cannot be tolerated in any academic work.

We might be able to persuade Noah to send his paper (complete with references this time) to you.

I think you will find that Noah has potential capability, but I am not able to properly evaluate it.

This would place a burden upon your remaining energy, without a doubt.

On the ** other ** hand, you may be able to help to nurture a promising candidate to actually lead an expedition in 2025(ish).

Or (at least) Noah may be qualified (at that time) to participate in some junior capacity, if you succeed in recruiting the experienced, trained scientists you have been considering.

(th)

GW Johnson · 2021-09-29 11:27:02

OF1939: hope you get to feeling better soon!!! GW

SpaceNut · 2021-09-29 19:12:11

Oldfart1939 wrote:

Thanks to all who commented positively on my health situation. Breathing hasn't ever been the problem as much as the lasting fatigue. No energy and little motivation.

I will ask what my brother has done to over come the fatigue other than physical therapy...

Oldfart1939 · 2021-09-29 20:56:22

I'm doing much better and was able to travel to visit my daughter and her husband in Montana--only to find that they both had Covid-19. I have had no ill effects from being in contact with either of them subsequent to my visit.

SpaceNut · 2021-10-01 21:56:12

Back a page or so we were talking about how to unload and protect the equipment and I think I have a solution in that we send the equipment in a modified with heat and lighting with side door for crew to enter and exit.

Size them to the equipment that it will store. All that will be needed is to cover them with regolith and connect them into the power and heating systems.

example hook up
8x10chemstorage158575-resized-600.jpg?t=1511884006990#keepProtocol

SpaceNut · 2021-10-04 19:07:25

First page was the mention of a drill rig for use to locate water deep in mars but we will also need a simular sample drill to do detailed analysis for minerals that we might want to know about.

From the scouting mars for a valid landing site for starship

https://deltion.ca/mining-in_space/

DESTIN
1 m lunar drill, contiguous sample
A suite of tools for augering, sample collection in consolidated and unconsolidated material
Sample transfer receptacle for parsing sample
Optional substrate differentiation package
No consumables, autonomous, tele-operable
Deployments: NASA RESOLVE Analogue Mission 2012
Mass: 42kg
Volume: 2.1m x 0.05m x 0.6m
Power: <150Watt DC nominal
Operations: 15-degree slope
Temperature: -20C to +40C (operations); -40C to +50C (storage)

DESTIN TRL6
1 m lunar drill
Advancement of DESTIN drill head to TRL6
Auger with bit temperature sensor, consolidated and unconsolidated material capture
Successfully drilled and captured sample in NASA Glenn dirty thermal vacuum chamber (LN2, 10-6 Torr).
Drilling medium: 2% and 5% frozen moisture CHENOBI (TM) simulant.
Mass: <20kg
Power: <60Watt average
Temperature: operations at 100K
Volatile retention: in core samples

SpaceNut · 2021-10-09 18:05:53

I finally took the time to figure out how to make the methane and oxygen from mars insitu materials.
Of course we need water and co2 with the sabatier reactor or something akin to one.
Here is the end results of setting up shop to get home for a starship

water gathered to make methane oxygen with co2 mT from the Atmosphere
540mT 240mT 960mT 660 mt

edit

finally finished the topics work for the time being and its going to take 2 starships fully loaded (300mT ea) on a slow trip to mars

It would contain 3 complete end to end units to process all of the dirt and co2 from the atmosphere to make fuel in a 500 sol period.

This gets easier with using the time on the surface that is shared with a crew present to create a surplus before they are to leave.

NewMarsMember · 2021-10-17 09:19:59

For OF 1939 ...

We received an application from a person who is a medical student.

You have indicated interest in having some medical knowledge and skill in your team.

You've also indicated some interest in multiple skill sets in team members.

Please start thinking about how you might approach the new member, assuming (he or she) is admitted.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-19 19:54:28

For OF 1939

SpaceNut is continuing to work on a vision of a process to refuel a Starship by harvesting regolith.

While I note that your assessment is that this is a fool's errand, I am happy to support it because of the generous payout of increased knowledge that will (hopefully) end up recorded in the topic.

Your support would surely be valuable, if you and SpaceNut can (somehow) work past the distrust that may be present.

He has just posted about trying to generate 1200 tons of propellant in 500 Earth days using batch processing.

Your experience with industrial scale chemical processing is a resource I would very much like to enlist if possible.

An opening might be possible if you were able to find a way of recasting the "Fool's Errand" assessment in an educational setting.

Calliban has recently included extraction of chemically bound molecules from regolith, in another topic entirely.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-23 11:42:26

For OF1939

Please review the application for a medical student: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 79#p186379

I have explained your project to define an expedition, and have invited the applicant to consider preparing for a position on the team.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-11-03 20:59:19

Clinician_Antilles I am wondering on you take about the mission having many cross trained skills not just medical in nature among a small crew for a first mission to mars.

SpaceNut · 2021-11-21 12:35:03

Packing for Mars

Starship white paper

The whitepaper marks the first time that SpaceX (or those familiar with the company’s plans) has properly fleshed out the basics of its first crewed and uncrewed Starship missions to Mars and confirms a great deal of well-informed speculation. Namely, SpaceX appears to intend to pack even the very first Mars-bound ships with supplies. But even if they don’t bring much, the first Martian immigrants – launched in batches of “10-20 people” alongside “100+ metric tons” (~220,000+ lb) of cargo – will reuse all surviving Starships as pre-emplaced habitats, storage tanks, and raw material feedstock. Early cargo will focus on power, water, and propellant production, as well as shelters, radiation shielding, and the construction of prepared landing pads.
Unsurprisngly, early residents will likely make the Starships that carry them to Mars their first homes on the surface of the Red Planet, taking advantage of an ~1100m³ (~39,000ft³) pressurized volume already outfitted to keep dozens of people alive and healthy in deep space for months at a time.

SpaceNut · 2021-11-23 19:36:48

Found the First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists. which goes with the triad of thought in the main topic.

SpaceNut · 2021-11-26 09:19:12

Radiation answers
Living Underground on Mars – The 9 Drilling Challenges
of the equipment use and duration to actual bore them as well as energy required.

8 rads/year on Mars is quite a bit

According to Mars one, we’ll need 16-feet of Martian soil to cover us. This should provide us with the same protection we get from Earth’s Atmosphere.
0.62 rads/year

Which is a lot of mars soil to move to cover a habitat.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2012.09604.pdf
Health threat from cosmic radiation during manned missions to Mars

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … 19JE006246
Subsurface Radiation Environment of Mars and Its Implication for Shielding Protection of Future Habitats

SpaceNut · 2021-11-26 09:20:02

Calliban wrote:

From SpaceNut's second link, some 2000g/cm2 of shielding is needed to reduce GCR dose rates to Earth standard. That is substantially greater than the column density of Earth's atmosphere and equivalent to about 8m of compacted regolith. But 8m of regolith is sufficient to protect a habitat from diurnal and seasonal temperature fluctuations and its weight is enough to balance internal air pressure. So that regolith layer solves three problems simultaneously.
From SpaceNut first link; tunnelling sounds like a finicky pain in the arse. It is a slow process, that requires a lot of heavy equipment and a lot of power. We are applying it within an alien environment, with a geology we don't understand. It isn't something that sounds at all practical to me within the early colony stage. More likely, habitable space will be created by heaping regolith over frames constructed in depressions.
I have read other plans that suggest a strategy of ignoring radiation protection altogether. Inflatable structures are built on the surface. Radiation dose is just a hit that the colonists have to take. Much depends on how much risk we are prepared to take and what we are prepared to spend reducing that risk. A dose rate of 8 rem per year equates to 100 rem (1Sv) dose every 12 years. That means losing 1 year of life expectancy for every 12 years of exposure. Maybe that is tolerable if living on Mars allows other risks to be avoided. But living on the surface would mean huge heat loads as well. Everything comes down to what balance we want to reach between risk, capital cost and operating cost.
I don't quite understand the aversion to building hab space underground. The above ground isn't exactly green and pleasant. And if people want a view of outside then a short flight of stairs to an observation dome isn't a difficult add on. But all else being equal, an underground hab is a healthier and more comfortable environment. Above ground time should be reserved for tasks that need to be above ground. Work in the agricultural poly tunnels, construction work or surface travel being an example. Martians will be troglodytes.

SpaceNut · 2021-11-26 09:26:13

That goes to show we will need every bit of the equipment and then some to set up a manned shop to start science and settlement on mars that RobertDyck posted in #114.

That said how would we make use of a cargo ship to build since its vertical and we need it laying on the ground. One possibility would be to cut just above the tanks to take the nose cargo area off from the stack up but what would we use as a crane to accomplish that task?

The remaining section of that starship would become the fuel tank farm which will need to run continously.

Calliban · 2021-11-26 10:17:09

SpaceNut wrote:

That goes to show we will need every bit of the equipment and then some to set up a manned shop to start science and settlement on mars that RobertDyck posted in #114.
That said how would we make use of a cargo ship to build since its vertical and we need it laying on the ground. One possibility would be to cut just above the tanks to take the nose cargo area off from the stack up but what would we use as a crane to accomplish that task?
The remaining section of that starship would become the fuel tank farm which will need to run continously.

A winch of some kind would appear to be the most efficient option. How about an aerial ropeway? We could tether the Starship on one side and have a descending ropeway on the other. That allows heavy freight to be unloaded without risk of toppling the ship.
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2011/01 … sport.html

The ropeway can take freight in both directions of course. Using strong stainless steel ropes and pulleys, we can devise ropeway that can transport many times their own weight. When the job is finished, they can be dismantled and reassembled at the next landing site.

Unloading the cargo could be powered by gravity, as the Starship payload bay is above ground level. Eventually though, we will want to send crates of my finest vintage Martian whisky back to Earth. So the winch will be fitted with a small electric motor with appropriate gearing.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-11-26 10:25:52)

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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

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