Large scale colonization ship

tahanson43206 · 2021-11-07 12:08:10

For RobertDyck re #900

First, congratulations on reaching this mini-milestone for the Large Ship topic.

Second, please do continue to develop your Blender skills. You showed excellent progress during your Convention talk... Now (if you have time.. I recognize ** that ** is a challenge) please add details about how you will collect solar energy, provide lighting for cabins and greenhouses, and whatever else I've overlooked that applies to this subset of the overall problem to be solved.

You're going to need professional assistance at some point, but at present, you seem to be making excellent progress with only Google as your assistant.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2021-11-07 12:28:42

The paper about gallium-indium-nitride photovoltaic cells was from the journal Science. I used to subscribe. I found it was difficult keeping up. A single issue took me a month to go through, but it came out weekly.

Efficiency of current space photovoltaics comes from website of US manufacturers. Issues with development come from talking to people in the industry.

Biology of chloroplasts comes from university text books. Procedure to harvest and isolate chloroplasts comes from lab exercises I got from a university biochemistry professor at my alma mater.

GW Johnson · 2021-11-07 12:52:34

Robert:

I've been a member of AAAS reading their journal "Science" for about half a century or a bit more, now. Most of that stuff is way outside any expertise I have, so all I can get from it is identity of what is going on, and a sort of flavor for what they think about what they know. So, don't feel alone.

I have to just skim through, looking for stuff that I do understand. They do a pretty good job these days summarizing the latest news for those not adept in the topic. Like me.

GW

kbd512 · 2021-11-07 13:35:16

RobertDyck,

A lot of the current research focus appears to be directed at simplifying manufacturing processes and using oxidizing environments as an advantage, to improve the efficiency of the photovoltaics. If a 25% efficient panel is fast and low-cost to manufacture, does not require a clean room or hard vacuum to manufacture, and can be readily recycled using existing recycling methods, then that's more useful to the industry than high-cost / high-embodied-energy materials and manufacturing methods. Around 95% of all PV technology is Silicon-based, and there's no indication that that will change any time soon. Thin film and Perovskite based PV technologies all have reduced long term durability, as compared to Silicon.

What little I've read about Gallium-Indium-Nitride seems to describe a litany of fabrication challenges, to include the requirement for a hard vacuum to avoid Oxygen contamination of the band-gap layers. I've seen papers on this technology as late as 2021, so R&D work continues. However, mass-manufacturing outside of an orbital factory environment is likely to remain very costly. This is a better than average reason to devote more money to manufacturing in space, but that is still exceptionally expensive to do, given current launch costs. Maybe Starship will help lower the bar, but that remains to be seen.

RobertDyck · 2021-11-07 14:32:27

kbd512,
Could you build a house using that photovoltaic technology? A house for where I live, in Winnipeg. A house that is 100% energy independent in worst-case weather conditions. Using a combination of nothing but photovoltaic, solar thermal, passive solar, windmill(s), geothermal, batteries in the basement, good insulation, and heat exchanger for fresh air. And while your at it, add photovoltaic to the roof of the garage and enough surplus electric generation capacity to charge an electric car. With the same housing density of modern residential housing developments. Not multiple acres per house, but not townhouses/rowhouses either; just a suburb. Could the technology you describe do that?

If you try to design any sort of net-meter system, which means some times your house purchased power from the grid, some times sells power to the grid, then the electric utility will manipulate prices and billing so the homeowner still has to pay a monthly utility bill. What I'm describing means zero energy bill during the week of worst-case weather, the other 51 weeks per year the house sells power to the grid. The primary purpose is to ensure money flows one way only: from the utility to the homeowner. The other purpose is that the power grid becomes much simpler. If power can flow either direction, especially if power could flow from some houses, to other houses at the same time, then the power grid becomes difficult to design. And the utility will use the expense of that equipment to charge the homeowner. Ensuring power flows one way only makes the grid simpler, and ensures the utility pays the homeowner every month.

I've described how cold winters are here. Could the system you describe do it?

::Edit:: Government regulations here require any house with primary heat from a geothermal heat pump (technically known as a ground source heat pump) must have a backup heat source. A wood burning fireplace can do that. For environmental activists, wood is a biofuel, it's carbon neutral. Keeping with the theme of efficiency, I recommend a high efficiency fireplace. I encountered one individual who claimed there's no such thing as a high efficiency fireplace. So I told him it's a high efficiency wood stove dressed up to look like a fireplace. He was satisfied with that. However, salesmen will still call them "high efficiency fireplace". The same salesmen will use the term "geothermal heat pump" even though engineers use the term "ground source heat pump".

Last edited by RobertDyck (2021-11-07 14:38:27)

RobertDyck · 2021-11-07 14:45:57

Back to the large ship. We will need something that can provide all the power the ship needs. Assume primary propulsion is not electric. And sunlight collectors provide light to chloroplast bags for primary oxygen generation. Greenhouses will also use mirrors for illumination. The rest of the ship will still need electricity. High efficiency low mass photovoltaic panels will be worth it. Even if said panels are relatively expensive. There's a reason solar panels manufactured on Earth for use on satellites in orbit are so efficient. By the way, the 32% efficient (beginning of life) photovoltaic panels use triple-junction cells: germanium on the bottom, gallium-arsenide in the middle, and gallium-indium-phosphate for the top. Yup, the top junction for current photovoltaic panels for satellites already uses the same two metals. The only difference is the new one uses nitride as the doping agent for the semiconductor instead of phosphate. These solar panels are expensive, but due to the extreme cost of launch and the requirement for long life in the space environment, they're worth it.

RobertDyck · 2021-11-07 15:02:38

tahanson43206 raised the issue of sunlight in Mars orbit. That's valid. But size of light collection mirror is proving to be an issue. I wanted to size it to accommodate maximum number of passengers per cabin, all adults, and provide oxygen from chloroplast bags only. However, realize plants in the greenhouses will also generate oxygen. And I really don't expect to shoe-horn 6 adults into absolutely every standard cabin. Some passengers with limited funds will, however, others will book a cabin with fewer than 6 passengers. And luxury cabins will not be subdivided to smallest cabins possible with maximum number of passengers in each of those. So I expect 1,000 passengers, not 1,600. Sunlight in Mars orbit is 47% that of Earth orbit. Can we rely on the greenhouse to compensate? Or should I enlarge the light collection mirrors? Design chloroplast oxygen generators for worst case: maximum passengers and 100% crop loss in the greenhouse?

tahanson43206 · 2021-11-11 19:23:50

In recognition of the numerous citations of the history of Newfoundland by RobertDyck, here is a news item about a (relatively) recent archaeological find:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/rare-520-old … 15724.html

Rare 520-year-old coin found at site of first English settlement in Newfoundland
Thu, November 11, 2021, 12:30 PM
The rare silver coin is known as a Henry VII 'half groat' or two-penny piece
The rare silver coin is known as a Henry VII half groat or two-penny piece
Archaeologists in eastern Newfoundland have unearthed what could be the oldest English coin ever found in Canada.
The rare silver coin - around the size of a US nickel and just smaller than a 10p coin - was discovered at the historic site of Cupids Cove, the first English settlement in the nation.
Known as a Henry VII half groat or two-penny piece, it is believed to have been minted more than 520 years ago.
The coin is expected to go on display at the site in the 2022 tourist season.
- ADVERTISEMENT -
"It is incredible to imagine that this coin was minted in England and was lost in Cupids over a hundred years later," said Steve Crocker, the provincial tourism, culture, arts and recreation minister, in a statement on Wednesday.
"It links the story of the early European exploration in the province and the start of English settlement."
A team of archaeologists studied the coin in consultation with a former curator of the Bank of Canada's Currency Museum and determined it had been minted in Canterbury sometime between 1493 and 1499.
Head archaeologist William Gilbert, who has led digs at the site since 1995, hailed the discovery as "a major find".

"Some artefacts are important for what they tell us about a site, while others are important because they spark the imagination. This coin is definitely one of the latter," Mr Gilbert said.
"One can't help but wonder at the journey it made, and how many hands it must have passed through."
In August 1610, a group of English settlers landed at what was then known as Cupers Cove, in Conception Bay, Newfoundland. They were led by a merchant from Bristol by the name of John Guy.
Within years, the colonists had built several structures there, including a fort, sawmill, gristmill and brew house.
In 2001, Mr Gilbert's team uncovered an Elizabethan coin at the same site, which was at the time considered to be the oldest English coin found in Canada.
The newly unearthed half groat is believed to be about 60 years older.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2021-11-22 00:24:21

One idea that I may have mentioned before. The propulsion unit of the Large Ship can be a separate module docked to the ship. The first flight can use liquid methane and liquid oxygen for primary propulsion. Since the hub will have the same diameter as SpaceX Starship, the propulsion module can as well. That means the propulsion module can be built as a rocket stage the same size as Starship. It would have the same diameter and same height, but with a straight cylinder with a dome top like the top of Super Heavy Booster. Instead of a curved point for the top, it would have an expendable fairing. The top of this propulsion module would dock with the Large Ship. This module would have all vacuum optimized Raptor engines, no sea level engines. Because it will never return to Earth. That also means the skirt around engines for Starship is not needed. Instead an expendable interstage.

When advanced propulsion becomes available, such as direct fusion drive, the module can be replaced.
YouTube: Direct Fusion Drive
website: Princeton Satellite Systems

tahanson43206 · 2021-11-22 08:07:08

For RobertDyck re #909

It is good to see the Large Ship back in development.

It would be helpful to have this vessel ready to fly in 2024, so that the first expedition has a decent environment to sustain them for a 2 year adventure.

An initial flight model could be in LEO now, if you can find a funder to support development of the equipment and control systems.

You (and the flight crew) need to work out the physics of controlling the large ship, and identifying the weaknesses that may exist in the current vision of structural elements and system dynamics.

The model can help you (and the flight crew) to learn how the system responds to stresses of acceleration and pointing.

Edit: The scale I have in mind is on the order of 1:100. The model needs to fit inside a Falcon 9 fairing, so you'll have to do the math to find how that shakes out. The model needs to be fully functional with (obviously) full remote control from Earth.

There should be a competition between universities to run the test series, but Caltech is an obvious first choice to approach.

MIT is a strong second choice, and there are a number of other comparable universities around the world.

I've said it before and I'll say it again as many times as necessary. Making money directly from this venture is a total waste of your time. You can make a fortune many times over by leading the entire enterprise. Put yourself out as the go-to resource for the large ship, and it is human nature to accept your leadership and pile onto a train that appears to be headed in the right direction.

Edit#2: I learned recently that Popular Mechanics is still in print. They might be willing to take on the Large Ship as a continuing series, and help you with exposure and contacts for funding and for participants. You have more than enough material collected in the Large Ship topic to produce a series of at least six episodes, and probably more. The goal is (a) exposure of your name as the leader for Large Ship and (b) to inspire the youngest generation to think of Large Ship as the ** only ** practical way to explore the Solar System.

Existing concepts are doomed to be seen as wimpy in comparison, and they will put their crews at great risk.

Edit#3: The toy market ... Louis could help here, if this discussion inspires his interest ...

If you can (somehow) find a funder to fly a scale model, you can get your concept translated into toys for the 2022 holiday season. Work needs to start soon to reach that objective.

Mattel is the first name that comes to mind, but there are surely many other names.

A LEGO model of Large Ship would be a natural. It's time to get moving to secure the "high ground" of global visibility.

I would like to point out that you have an advantage as a citizen of Canada. No one dislikes Canada, except for the association with the United States that causes discomfort from time to time.

It is perfectly reasonable for the concept of Large Ship to come from Canada. It is time to secure that position in the public consciousness.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2021-11-22 15:01:23

The zero-G hub and zero-G cargo hold could also be launched by Superheavy Booster. Basically a custom Starship that doesn't return to Earth. Containers for dried powdered human feces would be carried by Starship at Mars from orbit to the surface. They would have to fit in Starship so could be launched from Earth by one. The zero-G modules would need an upper stage for orbital insertion, but not a full Starship. Engine module that could return like ULA Vulcan Centaur?

RobertDyck · 2021-11-22 15:04:39

tahanson43206 wrote:

It would be helpful to have this vessel ready to fly in 2024, so that the first expedition has a decent environment to sustain them for a 2 year adventure.

That's a very ambitious schedule. Shall we call that "Elon Time"?

tahanson43206 · 2021-11-22 15:50:09

For RobertDyck re #912

That schedule is aligned with flight opportunities. Whether we Terrans can prepare to meet the opportunity is open to doubt, as you point out.

Without a goal and a time frame to achieve it, nothing significant is going to happen.

It seems to me that the first step toward building the fortune that awaits the "inventor" of Large Ship is to secure the rights to the design. The cost of a design patent is much (**much**) less than a technical patent. I believe that a design patent (like a copyright on a written work) is a minimal protection that would allow you to claim to be the "father" of Large Ship, and thus eligible to be considered an authoritative speaker on the subject.

What is the cost of a design patent in Canada?

For SpaceNut .... would you be willing to investigate to see what a design patent (such as Large Ship) would cost in the US?

I know that a going price for a technical patent in the US is now on the order of $5,000 (US).

It is within the realm of possibility for RobertDyck (or anyone but I'd prefer RobertDyck) to create a for profit corporation to secure a design patent for Large Ship by selling shares to those who are willing to bet some disposable cash on his vision.

Obviously this would force RobertDyck to grant the share holders a corresponding share of the profits, if Large Ship becomes profitable, which I expect it would if the asset (the idea and image) are managed well.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2021-11-22 16:12:38

Design Patent in Canada costs, up to December 31, 2021. Fees adjusted January 1st, but they are adjusted down a few cents for 2022. (No idea why.)
Basic examination fee: $416.98
each additional page over 10 pages: $10.42
maintenance of the exclusive right: $364.12 (for 2022)
There are more fees: photocopy fee, transfer, reinstatement of an abandoned application, advance examination, delaying registration. Would any of those apply?

SpaceNut · 2021-11-22 16:23:57

The basic filing fee for a design patent application is $760 for a large entity. A small entity's fee is $380, while a micro-entity's fee is $190. If you hire a patent lawyer to assist with preparing documents and filing the design patent application, the cost could be around $1,500 to $5,000.

RobertDyck · 2021-11-22 16:53:06

Turning the ship while spinning can be an issue. RCS thrusters normally just apply enough thrust to start the vehicle turning on one axis. Wait until attitude has changed the desired angle, then apply equal thrust in the opposite direction to stop rotation. Maintaining attitude and changing attitude can be done with reaction wheels instead. Spin a reaction while in one direction, the vehicle will turn in the opposite. Stop the reaction wheel from spinning, that will stop the vehicle turning. Reaction wheels can operate with electric motors, so only electricity required. Because you don't expect to accumulate angular momentum, just add angular momentum to start the turn, then take it away to stop the turn, no propellant is required. You could say no reaction mass is required, but technically the reaction while is the reaction mass; it's just contained.

Turning a spinning top requires applying thrust 90° to the desired rotation. What's worse is applied force is vector added to the angular momentum of the spinning top. To turn such a thing requires quite a bit of force. This could require a lot of propellant. Better to use a reaction wheel.

Reaction wheel would have to be contained in a cage that is counter-spin so it doesn't spin with the ship. Two reaction wheels would be 90° to the rotation of the ship, so 90° to the ring. But the cage has to be physically connected so when force is applied, it pushes on the ship.

Of course an idea I posted earlier: position pulse thrusters around the "waist" of the hub of the ship. This will not be counter-spun, they will turn with the ship. These would be used for mid-course correction. Rather than turning the entire ship in the direction that thrust is required so the main engine to apply thrust, instead wait for one of the mid-course correction thrusters to point in the desired direction, then apply a pulse. Keep doing this as rotation of the ship brings other thrusters into alignment. While the ship's attitude is maintained with stern pointed to the Sun, these thrusters could push it sideways for mid-course correction.

tahanson43206 · 2021-11-22 18:23:15

For RobertDyck and SpaceNut ... thanks for investigating the costs of securing design rights in Canada and the US.

It seems to me that the basic costs are in line with (but slightly higher than) I'd been expecting.

Thanks to RobertDyck for including mention of the renewal fee. That sounds exactly like the renewal fee for trademarks in the US. My recollection is that a trademark lasts for five years.

Well, the entire matter will be taken care of the instant Large Ship is perceived to have value. At that point, someone with the resources will secure the rights to the design, and exact a license fee for anyone wanting to use it.

Perhaps that is the best outcome.

At least the Large Ship concept will have moved from early drafts to secured design.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2021-11-23 02:02:15

tahanson43206 wrote:

Well, the entire matter will be taken care of the instant Large Ship is perceived to have value. At that point, someone with the resources will secure the rights to the design, and exact a license fee for anyone wanting to use it.
Perhaps that is the best outcome.
At least the Large Ship concept will have moved from early drafts to secured design.

You're screwing up again. You tried to be encouraging, now you're being threatening. Nothing productive happens by threatening. Encouraging someone to steal my work and take over will be very very bad. For one, I have documentation here on this discussion threat. Dates and times stamped with my name. This can be used in court to sue anyone who tries to steal my ideas.

And look who actually does have resources. Traditional contractors for NASA who are military contractors. They deliberately increased cost to operate Shuttle until NASA and Congress had enough and cancelled it. They screwed with VentureStar resulting in project cancellation. They screwed with Constellation until that was cancelled. The Senate tried to revive it as SLS, but the same contractors are screwing with it now. A group at NASA were worried SLS would get cancelled because there wasn't enough for it to do, there wasn't enough manifest, so they created the Lunar Gateway. Now SLS has been delayed and delayed so much that Congress is considering cancelling it. If one of them takes over the Large Ship, it will be screwed with until it's no longer practical, they will find ways to gouge NASA for copious gobs of cash, then it will be cancelled. With nothing to show.

tahanson43206 · 2021-11-23 08:39:27

For RobertDyck .... I'm sure I've failed to provide the feedback you need to insure your success. Trying to work with a person who may well be a genius is more difficult than working with extremely intelligent people, and it can be extremely difficult to work with such a person.

You may well be both, and that is almost too much for an ordinary person to handle.

It seems to me you are stuck. You ** need ** other human beings to help you realize a vision that humans ** need **, but you are unsure how to proceed so that the wealth that will flow from realization of the vision flows entirely into your hands, and ** none ** flows to others who might help.

One way out of the dilemma is to just let go.

Let the vision fly on it's own, and then allow reward to flow out to all who come into contact with it.

Some of that reward ** should ** come back to you, but there are no guarantees in life.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-11-23 11:43:13

I think the quote is missing this assurance in that you are asking that RobertDyck take steps to put his IP into protection. In part it is with the web site and other dated content he may have in possession for this idea sort of in the realm. It just needs more legal protection which you suggested. IP is always a legal battle of documented information and dating. This includes the 3d, movie images ect that have been created to portray the design concepts.
Its time to find a means to model in other cad test software, prototype to do testing of design and more as steps forward to making the ship come to life.

RobertDyck · 2021-11-23 12:09:23

I don't want to let go. This isn't something that I can let go. It was my dream since I was a pre-schooler to be an aerospace engineer. I wanted to design the first spacecraft to carry humans to Mars. I bought Robert Zubrin's book in the spring of 1998, it described the "Case for Mars" conferences that were once every 3 years, and the next was August of that same year. I couldn't afford to go. Too bad because that became the founding convention of the Mars Society. If I went, I could have called myself a founding member. But I did join in 1999, I've been so deeply involved that at one point Robert Zubrin thought I was a founding member. In 2002 I gave a presentation of a modification of Mars Direct. It wasn't designing something from scratch, but it was a way for me to be involved. Besides, I thought it was an improvement. Members at that time didn't like modifying Robert Zubrin's plan at all. And Dr Zubrin certainly didn't want anyone to change his plan. Recently Elon Musk has made great strides! I still don't think Starship is best for the first human mission to Mars; I think something the size of Mars Direct would be better. Obviously Robert Zubrin feels that way too, he presented "Mars Direct 2.0" at a Mars Society convention a couple years ago. But SpaceX is making major progress. Looks like I won't be able to design the spacecraft for the first human mission. But if I can design the Large Ship, then I've done something.

When I was a child, all adults told me that no one can ever accomplish anything of significance. You will always be nothing but a cog in a machine. That was so frustrating! So I concluded the only way I could realize my own design is if I own the aerospace company. So that means I have to be the company owner. How do I do that? Some kid growing up on the blue-collar side of a railroad town? My father was a welder with the railroad. His title was boiler maker, meaning he was certified to weld pressure vessels. He started as a high-steel construction worker, building bridges and big oil tanks for refineries. He was proud that he could say "I built that"! When his young wife became pregnant with their first child (me) he gave up the job he loved to work for the railroad. Construction jobs were remote, keeping him away from his young wife. They were in their 20s and their first year of marriage. The railroad job meant he could spend evenings and weekends with the family. When he started the railroad job he decided to make the best of it, got a community collage diploma in welding. It was called "engineering" but it wasn't a university engineering degree, it was a community college advanced welding diploma. Because he had that, he was the best welder in the heavy equipment shop. He repaired the heavy equipment that repaired the tracks, and any other heavy equipment. The town I grew up was all on one side of the tracks, but it was separated by one street: all white collar workers owned houses on one side, blue collar on the other. I grew up on the blue collar side. Frankly, the principle and most teachers assumed all students there would get blue collar jobs. My mother always assumed I would go to university, but the rest of the community didn't believe anyone from there could amount to anything. As for aerospace engineering: Canada still hurt over cancellation of the Avro Arrow. When I was a child in the 1960s and 1970s, all adults said there's no way any Canadian could get a job in aerospace. They kept bringing up the Avro Arrow and how nothing in that field will ever happen in Canada. Yes, the Avro Arrow as cancelled in 1959, a few years before I was born, but it created a national sense of defeat and a national inferiority complex that lasted decades.

So I had to start a business. I thought computers had a lot of promise. Adults in the 1970s said computers would never go anywhere. Why would anyone want one in their home? But I thought it would grow. In the early 1980s, I said microcomputers were growing fast, mainframe computers were growing but not as fast. Mid-range computers would be squeezed out. In 1982/'83 I made the prediction that Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) would be in great trouble about the year 2000. At that time that company was the second largest computer company in the world, second only to IBM. Everyone thought I was crazy. But in the late 1990s, it happened. Microprocessors had improved so much that servers were competing with VAX computers manufactured by DEC. So DEC developed a RISC processor called Alpha, giving them new life. Intel engineers had doubled performance every 18 months since the mid-1960s, by the mid-1990s they hit a wall. So Intel copied the math processor from the Alpha, creating the Pentium Pro processor. DEC sued Intel, and was about to win the law suit when Intel got together with Compaq and bought DEC in a hostile take-over. They carved up DEC like a Thanksgiving turkey. The Alpha development team went to Intel, computer manufacture went to Compaq. Intel told engineers from DEC their first task was to teach Intel engineers everything they knew. Many DEC/Alpha engineers didn't want to work for the enemy, so they quit and went to work for Advanced Micro Devices (AMD). Immediately AMD came out with a processor that worked faster than Intel's. That was the first time AMD out-performed Intel. Because they had better Alpha engineers from DEC. Yea, I predicted this almost 2 decades before it happened. Did anyone listen to me? No!

When I was a teenager in high school, it was my plan to start a computer company, grow that, grow the company, then when the computer industry collapsed to a few large companies, I would get out of the computer industry and get into aerospace. I predicted that would happen in the late 1990s, just when DEC would be in trouble. Yup, it happened. But I never did get a computer company off the ground. I had a partner, a friend from high school. We studied computers in detail. I suggested we develop a computer company together. I got a job as a computer programmer half way through first year university. My friend demanded my boss hire him too. ( Just couldn't accept that I had something he didn't. ) We did start a company to develop custom software for small companies. However, he kept taking on jobs in our field and doing so outside our partnership. He only told me about it when he took on something that proved to be more than he could handle alone. He proved to be a flake in a few ways. He kept trying to be the boss, but we were supposed to be equal partners. And he had a bad habit: if a project took more than a month to complete, after a month he would scrap everything he did and start over, taking a different approach. I found I had to manage him. I had to assign him pieces small enough that he could finish in less than a month, then never let him work on that piece again. Assign him the next part. That was the only way we could finish large projects. I had to manage him, yet he kept trying to be the boss. That business failed.

Elon started with computer games. He basically succeeded using the same strategy that I had intended.

You keep talking about taking away my project, my creation. You don't seem to understand, this is who I am, this would mean my life has finally begun. This is my life, this is me. And you want to steal it. If you want to help me get my company started, great! I could definitely use the help. But any hint at taking it away from me is not in any way acceptable.

Perhaps I need to give another analogy to get through to you how important this is. A married couple in Canada started a business to manufacture pharmaceuticals. That's drugs: insulin for people who have diabetes, etc. They kept their prices low so customers could afford. They operated at a profit, but didn't try to gouge for everything they could get, instead focused on producing high quality product at low prices to grow their market share. It worked, their company became very large. Some people in the United States started asking why prices are so much higher there. Companies started exporting product from Canada to the United States. The Canadian company succeeded. Then a couple years ago the married couple that founded and owned/operated that company were found dead in their home. For some reason police refuse to investigate. The couple's family insisted the police investigate, it was obviously foul-play but they wouldn't. Someone played hardball, to use a metaphor. Getting my space company off the ground is that important to me.

If I'm not in control, the idea must die. If you want it to happen, then stop trying to take it from me.

RobertDyck · 2021-11-23 12:19:37

I've seen bits on YouTube that say Elon works 16 hours per day. Sounds great! I would like to work that hard. But I'm stuck in my house with no resources. Well, few. It's hard to work at something with no realistic means of anything productive happening. My mother died, I now have a little money (inheritance), but my past attempts to start a business have shown how quickly that can disappear. I don't want what's left of my mother to evaporate.

tahanson43206 · 2021-11-23 13:15:42

For RobertDyck re thoughtful reply .... Thanks for providing so much to think about! Right now is not the best time (due to ongoing activities) but NewMars will keep the posts on file for the careful reading they deserve.

For SpaceNut ... thanks for pointing out that the NewMars archive is an historical record of the development of the Large Ship idea.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2021-11-23 13:23:03

Tom, before you proposed taking my work away from me, you proposed some ideas to get this started. Could we focus on that? Could we make this happen?

Calliban · 2021-11-23 13:47:20

What Robert Dyke has written puts me in mind of an interview of Robert Zubrin that I watched about a year ago. Zubrin spent the greater part of his life developing ideas for Mars colonisation, tirelessly organising a global society to campaign for Mars exploration, but generally lacking the resources to push the idea beyond a certain point. Along came billionaire Elon Musk, who built the Starship, fired the imagination of millions and appears to have a workable plan for Mars colonisation that he will soon put into action. Musk is a household name and many consider him to be a visionary hero. Zubrin is relatively obscure.

On balance, I know that Zubrin is pleased to see SpaceX succeed. But at least part of him must feel deflated and his pride a little hurt, to see Musk take so much credit, building on Zubrin's life work, whilst he himself remains (relatively) obscure. I think Robert Dyke may find himself in a similar situation in another ten years. It will be a bitter sweet moment. On the one hand, his dream will come true. One the other, his work may be exploited with little or no recognition.

My own contribution is much smaller and so is my emotional investment. But when first coming here I knew that anything I developed would be public knowledge. I post under a pseudonym, so will receive absolutely no recognition. I think many people here are in the same position. We must find a way of revelling in achievements that we have contributed to, knowing that our contribution will be unsung and unrecognised, but that they may enable miracles to happen. To what extent can we each take our egos out of our achievements and enjoy seeing them realised, with that being the only reward?

Last edited by Calliban (2021-11-23 13:57:46)

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#901 2021-11-07 12:08:10

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#902 2021-11-07 12:28:42

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#903 2021-11-07 12:52:34

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#904 2021-11-07 13:35:16

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#905 2021-11-07 14:32:27

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#906 2021-11-07 14:45:57

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#907 2021-11-07 15:02:38

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#908 2021-11-11 19:23:50

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#909 2021-11-22 00:24:21

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#910 2021-11-22 08:07:08

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#911 2021-11-22 15:01:23

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#912 2021-11-22 15:04:39

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#913 2021-11-22 15:50:09

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#914 2021-11-22 16:12:38

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#915 2021-11-22 16:23:57

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#916 2021-11-22 16:53:06

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#917 2021-11-22 18:23:15

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#918 2021-11-23 02:02:15

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#919 2021-11-23 08:39:27

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#920 2021-11-23 11:43:13

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#921 2021-11-23 12:09:23

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#922 2021-11-23 12:19:37

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#923 2021-11-23 13:15:42

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#924 2021-11-23 13:23:03

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#925 2021-11-23 13:47:20

Re: Large scale colonization ship

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