Mechanical Storage of Hydrogen

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-24 13:24:45

For SpaceNut .... as I launch another new topic, please note that I searched ahead of time and found no topic with this tight focus.

In another topic, in late 2021 on Earth, SpaceNut has been pursuing a study of what it would take to harvest mechanically held gases in Mars regolith, for the purpose of refueling a Starship. It took me a while to figure out that SpaceNut was thinking about mechanically held water (and gases) and NOT chemically bound materials, such as comprise the bulk of the regolith.

The yield that might be expected from the procedures SpaceNut is investigating is small compared to the amount of material (regolith) to be processed, but the energy required is much less than would be true if the goal were to liberate the chemically bound water.

The exercise of trying to follow along with SpaceNut's efforts inspired this new dedicated topic ...

I am interested in home storage of hydrogen, but I am **not** interested in trying to hold Hydrogen in a pressure tank as a gas, or in a vacuum flask as a liquid.

Over recent times, I have seen references to ways of packing hydrogen into a matrix of atoms so that the hydrogen is not colliding endlessly with its neighbors, but so that the hydrogen can be encouraged to leave the temporary lodging with modest investment of energy.

The question I am hoping this new topic will explore is whether it is feasible for a home owner in (let's say) Northern Canada or in Alaska, to store enough hydrogen in a home storage container of some kind, so that the needs of a family for heating, electricity, clean water, sewage treatment and whatever else a homestead in a remote location might require can be met with an annual delivery of hydrogen by Ye Olde Hydrogen Supply Company, Ltd.

This forum is fortunate to have members who are skilled in computing. I'm hoping this new topic will inspire someone to estimate how much hydrogen would need to be stored to serve a family of four in Northern Canada or Alaska, so they can live comfortably for an entire year.

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SpaceNut · 2021-10-24 14:56:33

Using the void between molecules is sort of the thing for the dirt water and there has been work on a sponge for hydrogen.

New hydrogen storage sponge design may make EV fuel cells safer Hydrogen-storage-sponge-images-of-soap-sponges.jpg?ezimgfmt=ng%3Awebp%2Fngcb6%2Frs%3Adevice%2Frscb6-1 sponge-like metallic material using the NU-1501

A conventional H2 tank stores the fuel at 10,000 psi (700 bar), which is about 300 times the pressure of a car tire.

For safe EV hydrogen fuel cell use

Climate change: 'Bath sponge' breakthrough could boost cleaner cars

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-24 16:34:42

For SpaceNut ... thanks for your impressive follow up in Post #2

By Matt McGrath
Environment correspondent
Published18 April 2020

A home energy storage solution is what I'll be looking for, as I pursue the link you provided.

I'm still looking for a number that shows how much hydrogen needs to be stored to provide comfortable living for a family of four in Alaska or Northern Canada for a full year.

The number would include provision for:

Heating
Electricity
mechanical systems including transportation
Clean water, including processing of sewerage

In short, what I'm looking for is what a family of four would need to live in comfort on the Moon, or Mars, without support from outside except for the occasional shipment of groceries.

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SpaceNut · 2021-10-24 17:18:55

That's from the hydrogen economy and solar for home use which I have posts on but here is a quick search.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en … en-economy

Creating the new hydrogen economy is a massive undertaking

Some 90m tonnes of the stuff are produced each year
This is done almost entirely by burning fossil fuels with air and steam—a process which uses up 6% of the world’s natural gas and 2% of its coal and emits more than 800m tonnes of carbon dioxide,

So its not a new idea but one that zoning is having issues with for safety and more.

www.HydrogenHouseProject.org

Inside the Solar-Hydrogen House: No More Power Bills--Ever

The Strizki's personalized home-energy system consists of 56 solar panels on his garage roof, and housed inside is a small electrolyzer (a device, about the size of a washing machine, that uses electricity to break down water into its component hydrogen and oxygen). There are 100 batteries for nighttime power needs along the garage's inside wall; just outside are ten propane tanks (leftovers from the 1970s that are capable of storing 19,000 cubic feet, or 538 cubic meters, of hydrogen) as well as a Plug Power fuel cell stack (an electrochemical device that mixes hydrogen and oxygen to produce electricity and water) and a hydrogen refueling kit for the car.
The Strizki's personalized home-energy system consists of 56 solar panels on his garage roof, and housed inside is a small electrolyzer (a device, about the size of a washing machine, that uses electricity to break down water into its component hydrogen and oxygen). There are 100 batteries for nighttime power needs along the garage's inside wall; just outside are ten propane tanks (leftovers from the 1970s that are capable of storing 19,000 cubic feet, or 538 cubic meters, of hydrogen) as well as a Plug Power fuel cell stack (an electrochemical device that mixes hydrogen and oxygen to produce electricity and water) and a hydrogen refueling kit for the car.
"Geothermal is another piece of free energy," Strizki says, noting that he dug eight feet (2.4 meters) down into the granite under his home to take advantage of the constant 56-degree Fahrenheit (13-degree Celsius) temperature underground. In summer he can use the lower temperatures underground to cool his entire house, and in winter he can capture those warmer temperatures, supplementing them with a heat pump powered by electricity from hydrogen. "Nothing goes to waste."

There are several of these homes in the US but each has had there own issues moving forward.

The Hydrogen House Weathers the Storm

The “Hydra” mobile water purifier and generator operates on renewable solar-hydrogen fuel and provides electricity, medical grade oxygen, and up to 75,000 liters of purified drinking water per day from any water source.

A hydrogen power plant for the home

An energy storage system connects to rooftop solar panels to power a home using hydrogen fuel cells
The Lavo Green Energy Storage System is a 324 kg (714 lb) box that connects to the homes’ solar inverter and mains water, through a water purifier.
There is also a DC converter and a small, 5 kW lithium buffer battery to deliver a regulated voltage.
The system can store around 40 kilowatt-hours of electricity – enough to power the average home for two days.
The LAVO is not cheap – at A$34,750 it is around three times the cost of a Powerwall, but also holds around three times the energy.
Website: lavo.com.au

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-24 17:20:25

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52328786

Now, researchers believe they have developed an alternative method that would allow the storage of high volumes of hydrogen under much lower pressure.
The team has designed a highly porous new material, described as a metal-organic framework.

The product, with the glamorous name of NU-1501, has been built from organic molecules and metal ions which self-assemble to form highly crystalline, porous frameworks.
"It's like a bath sponge but with very ordered cavities," said Prof Omar Farha, from Northwestern University in Evanston, US, who led the research.
"With a sponge, if you spill water and you wipe it, in order to reuse the sponge, you squeeze it.
"With this material we use the same thing - we use pressure to store and release these gas molecules."

"So, it works exactly like a bath sponge, except in a very smart programmed way."
The key ability of the new framework is that it can potentially store hydrogen and other gases at much lower pressures while not needing an enormous tank.
"We can store tremendous amounts of hydrogen and methane within the pores of the metal-organic framework and deliver them to the engine of the vehicle at lower pressures than needed for current fuel cell vehicle," Prof Farha said.
His team have gained experience in developing these adsorbent materials for the US Department of Defense, to protect soldiers against nerve gas attacks,
The researchers say there is now funding available to develop this type of material for transport applications.
The new material has already beaten tough targets set by the US Department of Energy for onboard storage and delivery systems for alternative fuels.
But to go further, the scientists will need significant buy-in from car manufacturers.
The research has been published in the journal Science.

Thanks again to SpaceNut for finding this article!

And thanks to Prof Omar Farha, from Northwestern University in Evanston, US, for pursuing this idea!

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tahanson43206 · 2021-10-25 06:32:29

I will attempt to find out if this hydrogen storage method can be adapted to the home energy storage scenario I posed at the top of this topic.

Pressure is (apparently) still required, but I have to assume it is less than the equivalent pressure required to store the hydrogen as a gas.

The volume of the storage unit will be greater than that needed for storage of liquid hydrogen, because the storage matrix will be present along with the gas.

Still, for a home energy storage system, it ** sounds ** like a simple tank. The size of the tank will (presumably) be greater than that of a tank to hold liquid hydrogen, so an idea of the size can be estimated by finding the amount of hydrogen that would be needed to support a family for a year in comfort, as described earlier.

An example from human history is the Space Shuttle tank, which held both LOX and LH2, in sufficient quantity to sustain a lift of the Shuttle to orbit, after the solid motors had completed their burn.

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SpaceNut · 2021-10-25 18:02:46

post 4 the home for it was using regular 1,000 gallon propane tanks iirc
Its been some time since I last did this research. But I know that I have posted about both before.

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-25 18:18:25

For SpaceNut re #7

Thanks for the tip about all that work you did previously for gas heating !!!

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 30#p175330

It is possible the links and text you provided in Post #7 contain information that would answer the question of hydrogen needed for a year's supply.

My thinking on this is that a large nuclear plant that made nothing but Hydrogen could serve a large number of homes and businesses, if the hydrogen could be stored safely for up to a year. That is why I am interested in the mechanical storage system.

It would operate at ambient temperature, and at some (hopefully) lower pressure than would be the case with gas.

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tahanson43206 · 2021-10-25 18:25:51

Re Professor Farha...

About 32,000 results (0.58 seconds)
Prof Omar K Farha | Professor of Chemistry at Northwestern ...https://sites.northwestern.edu › omarkfarha
Prof. Omar K. Farha's research seeks to solve exciting problems in chemistry and materials science ranging from energy and environment related applications ...
Group members · Omar Farha · Research · Meetings
Omar Farha: Department of Chemistry - Northwestern Universityhttps://chemistry.northwestern.edu › people › profiles
Prof. Farha's research seeks to solve exciting problems in chemistry and materials science ranging from energy and environment related applications to ...
Omar Farha - Google Scholarhttps://scholar.google.com › citations
Metal–organic framework materials with ultrahigh surface areas: is the sky the limit? OK Farha, I Eryazici, NC Jeong, BG Hauser, CE Wilmer, AA Sarjeant, ...
Omar Farha - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Omar_Farha
Omar K. Farha is a professor of chemistry at Northwestern University and an Associate Editor for ACS Applied Materials & Interfaces.
Videos
PREVIEW
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Interview with Prof. Omar Farha, American University of Beirut ...
YouTube · EYCN Communications
Feb 26, 2020
3
key moments in this video
From 00:05
What is the future of MOFs?
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What is your favourite chemical reaction?
From 00:47
What advice would you offer to young scientists
PREVIEW
3:40
Omar K. Farha - Creating Sustainable Hydrogen Storage with ...
YouTube · Pittcon Videos
Oct 5, 2017
PREVIEW
8:17
Prof. Omar Farha's Mentoring Talk: Interviews
YouTube · Prof. Bilal R. Kaafarani
Sep 20, 2019
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PREVIEW
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Prof. Omar Farha's Mentoring Talk at AUB
YouTube · Prof. Bilal R. Kaafarani
Feb 2, 2020
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key moments in this video
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Omar Farha - Professor Of Chemistry - Northwestern Universityhttps://www.linkedin.com › omar-farha-24261649
Professor Of Chemistry at Northwestern University · Activity · Experience · Education · Groups · More activity by Omar · People also viewed · Others named Omar Farha ...
Don't Be Cocky": An Interview with Prof. Omar Farhahttps://gpchemist.acs.org › be-confident-dont-be-cocky
Jul 14, 2020 — Dr. Farha talks about the struggles and opportunities he has ... Omar K. Farha is a full professor of chemistry at Northwestern University.
AUB - Events - Mentoring Talk by Prof. Omar Farhahttp://www.aub.edu.lb › Events › Pages › Details
The 2019 Makhlouf Haddadin Lecture will be delivered by Prof. Omar K. Farha from Northwestern University. He is the president of NuMat Technologies,
Note reference to NuMat Technologies ... ***
Omar Farha | ENFLhttps://enfl.aps.anl.gov › Awards › omar-farha
Aug 17, 2020 — Prof. Omar K. Farha is professor of chemistry at Northwestern University and an Associate Editor for ACS Applied Materials & Interfaces.
Interview with Prof. Omar Farha - EYCN - Facebookhttps://www.facebook.com › eycn.eu › videos › interview...
Video for Prof Omar Farha,
0:55
We interviewed Prof. Omar Farha (Northwestern University) in September 2019 at the American University ...
Related searches
Image of Omar Yaghi
Omar Yaghi
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Northwestern University
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omar farha wikipedia
Omar Farha
Researcher
Omar K. Farha is a professor of chemistry at Northwestern University and an Associate Editor for ACS Applied Materials & Interfaces. His current research spans diverse areas of chemistry and materials science ranging from energy to defense-related challenges. Wikipedia
Affiliation: Northwestern University
Research interests: MOFs, POPs, Coordination Chemistry, Inorganic chemistry, Catalysis
Publications
Metal–organic framework materials as catalysts
JY Lee, OK Farha, J Roberts, KA Scheidt, SBT Nguyen, JT Hupp
Chemical Society Reviews
2009
Metal–organic framework materials as chemical sensors
LE Kreno, K Leong, OK Farha, M Allendorf, RP Van Duyne, JT Hupp
Chemical reviews
2012
De novo synthesis of a metal–organic framework material featuring ultrahigh surface area and gas storage capacities
OK Farha, AÖ Yazaydın, I Eryazici, CD Malliakas, BG Hauser, MG Kanatzidis, SBT Nguyen, RQ Snurr, JT Hupp
Nature chemistry
2010
Imparting functionality to a metal–organic framework material by controlled nanoparticle encapsulation
G Lu, S Li, Z Guo, OK Farha, BG Hauser, X Qi, Y Wang, X Wang, S Han, X Liu
Nature chemistry
2012
2D homologous perovskites as light-absorbing materials for solar cell applications
DH Cao, CC Stoumpos, OK Farha, JT Hupp, MG Kanatzidis
Journal of the American Chemical Society
2015
Metal–organic framework materials with ultrahigh surface areas: is the sky the limit?
OK Farha, I Eryazici, NC Jeong, BG Hauser, CE Wilmer, AA Sarjeant, RQ Snurr, SBT Nguyen, AO Yazaydın, JT Hupp
Journal of the American Chemical Society
2012
Rational design, synthesis, purification, and activation of metal− organic framework materials
OK Farha, JT Hupp
Accounts of chemical research
2010
A facile synthesis of UiO-66, UiO-67 and their derivatives
MJ Katz, ZJ Brown, YJ Colón, PW Siu, KA Scheidt, RQ Snurr, JT Hupp, OK Farha
Chemical Communications
2013
Chemical, thermal and mechanical stabilities of metal–organic frameworks
AJ Howarth, Y Liu, P Li, Z Li, TC Wang, JT Hupp, OK Farha
Nature Reviews Materials
2016
Large-scale screening of hypothetical metal–organic frameworks
CE Wilmer, M Leaf, CY Lee, OK Farha, BG Hauser, JT Hupp, RQ Snurr
Nature chemistry
2012
See more on
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Profiles
Google Scholar
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Co-authors
Joseph T. Hupp
Randall Q Snurr
SonBinh Nguyen
Amy Sarjeant

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Calliban · 2021-11-08 07:26:46

SpaceNut's hydrogen sponge appears to be an adsorption material. Adsorption materials can be placed inside pressure vessels and increase the amount of hydrogen (or other gas) stored within the volume at any particular pressure. The molecules tend to stick to the metal surface by Van Der Waals forces. If the surface area is great enough, as in a sponge, the amount of gas stored in the volume is substantially increased. Downsides are added weight (usually minor) and the need to add thermal energy to release the hydrogen. Keep in mind that the amount of hydrogen stored is still a function of pressure. But adsorption materials allow for an increased energy density at the expense of some design complication.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-03-18 07:28:36

Record-breaking hydrogen electrolyzer claims 95% efficiency

https://newatlas.com/energy/hysata-effi … ctrolysis/

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-21 12:05:37

With a nod to Mars_B4_Moon for #11 .... link to improved efficiency for electrolysis ...

Here is a story (or rather a snipped) about a (tentative) plan in Utah to store renewable/intermittent energy in the form of hydrogen (in caves).

This idea qualifies for the "Mechanical Storage" topic, although the details of how the hydrogen would be stored are not described.

The default is to simply store the hydrogen under compression in caves. Some of the molecules would penetrate the stone walls, but eventually (I would assume) that "leakage" should come to a stop.

The question that struck me when I read this is ... Where is the water going to come from?"

Utah is reporting water shortage .... this project would require a supply of water

Sea water would work just fine, and it would be another customer for the Interstate 80 pipeline.

SAM METZ
Wed, July 20, 2022 at 10:44 AM
DELTA, Utah (AP) — The coal plant is closing. In this tiny Utah town surrounded by cattle, alfalfa fields and scrub-lined desert highways, hundreds of workers over the next few years will be laid off — casualties of environmental regulations and competition from cheaper energy sources.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-07-21 12:21:56

For SpaceNut ... just FYI...

Hello,
An article about Delta, written by Sam Metz of AP, caught my eye this morning.
Sam had written about a concept to convert a ? retired ? coal power plant for storage of intermittent energy using hydrogen as the energy storage medium.
This is a form of battery, with the distinct advantage that it does not lose charge with age, so it is a reasonable idea for coming years, when the Nation converts from fossil fuel to renewable energy sources.
However, a distinct issue was NOT addressed in the article ... the storage facility is going to need water, and lots of it.
Meanwhile, my understanding is that the Great Salt Lake is evaporating faster than natural supplies of water are arriving to refill it.
The forecast is not looking good.f
A Utah politician is reported to have thrown "Hail Mary" pass, in the form of a proposal to pull water from the Pacific Ocean.
That is actually quite practical ... the distance is 300 miles (or so) and the elevation is to 8000 feet and then back down to 4000 feet.
However, refilling the Great Salt Lake appears to be a goal that does not have a payback. While refilling the Great Salt Lake would have many benefits, making a buck would not be one of them.
However, the project at Delta ** could ** use a feed of water for recharging the hydrogen storage, and I would expect the demand to be constant.
This email is coming to you from, a study group of the Mars Society, which is thinking about water supply on Mars.
Water supply on Mars is even more challenging than water supply on Earth, so the challenges on Earth often come into focus.
If there is someone in Delta who would like to discuss this or any other ideas (of a practical nature) for delivery of ocean water to inland locations in the US or other Nations, you are welcome to apply to participate in the NewMars forums of the Mars Society.
Membership in the Mars Society is not required, although it is certainly encouraged for those who can afford it.
Regards!
tahanson43206
Junior Moderator
NewMars forum
Mars Society

My message to Delta, Utah, contained an incorrect figure of 300 miles. The actual number is (on the order of) 700 miles.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-11-08 12:36:00

The article at the link below covers several efforts to achieve mechanical storage of Hydrogen.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/topstor … e327bcddbb

The article leads off with an experimental conversion of a small switching engine, and goes on to cover several other initiatives.

Nothing of a game-changer nature is reported. This is a long slog, like fusion power.

Still, there are hints of possibility.

(th)

kbd512 · 2022-11-08 13:13:38

tahanson43206,

We're devoting lots of brain power and money and irreplaceable time, hoping to overturn well established physics. Fusion has always "worked", meaning the reaction happens as expected, but we can't seem to make it efficient enough for a net power gain, or other silly problems such as melting the walls of the containment vessel, because 100,000,000 degrees is really hot. Who knew?

We could've spent the last 4 decades and hundreds of billions of dollars constructing new nuclear power plants, so that workfare for smart people could continue unabated without a looming energy crisis.

Instead, we burned piles of cash on photovoltaics, wind turbines, batteries, and fusion devices, only to learn what was obvious from the beginning- those devices were never going to replace coal / oil / gas / fission inside of my lifetime.

I'm over here asking when we're going to stop this insanity and devote a lot more money to things that actually work, however aesthetically unpleasing they are to liberal arts majors, so all of humanity can continue to enjoy a quality of life at least as good as their ancestors did.

There's enough "raw resource", to do solar thermal and nuclear thermal. There's not enough "other raw resources" to do much of anything else. Everything else is a technological dead-end unless we're going to mine thousands of years worth of minerals, at current strip mining rates, in order to accomplish that. Since we either won't or can't do that, let's call a spade a spade. They were all "great ideas", in theory, but in actual practice they were also grossly impractical at the scale required to do much of anything useful for humanity. After and only after your basic needs are met, can you afford to screw around with technologies that may not ever work well enough to replace "what came before".

kbd512 · 2022-11-08 13:30:21

tahanson43206,

The Pareto Principle is very real and applies to pretty much everything. Denying it is a waste of time. The more energy spent on things that cannot work at the scale required, the less energy available to do everything else, and since that "everything else" also includes humanity's survival, I hope you can understand why some of the rest of us are tired of screwing around.

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-23 20:58:09

For SpaceNut ... this post is about ongoing and large scale efforts to store hydrogen .... I looked at all the hydrogen topics, and decided this topic is the best fit, even though the article includes multiple storage methods including mechanical...

What is particularly interesting (to me at least) is the interest (expressed in funding) in using hydrogen stored in caverns as an energy storage mechanism. Recently Void and other NewMars members have been discussing caverns on Mars for habitation, and Steve Stewart showed us examples of salt caverns in Kansas.

It seems to me that smaller scale energy storage might be achieved at the home or small business level, with underground tanks holding a stash of hydrogen for emergency power generation.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/race … 00036.html

Oilprice.com
The Race To Develop Hydrogen Storage
Editor OilPrice.com
Fri, December 23, 2022 at 5:00 PM EST
Around the globe, energy companies and governments are racing to develop their hydrogen storage capacity in an attempt to boost their energy security and reduce their reliance on natural gas. As investment into the research and development of hydrogen technologies increases, several world powers are developing better storage solutions to support the rollout of hydrogen for a multitude of uses. Boosting storage capacity will allow countries to produce and store hydrogen for use much in the same way as natural gas.
As part of its National Clean Hydrogen Strategy and Roadmap, the U.S. Department of Energy (DoE) discusses the potential for increasing hydrogen storage. It considers the alternative approaches to hydrogen storage to decide on the optimal option for long-term storage. Hydrogen can be kept in a number of different ways, either in gaseous or liquid vessels, in underground formations, or in materials such as hydrogen carriers. Depending on how the hydrogen will be used, each of these options can be appropriate.
Stay ahead of the market
There are already commercial tanks and liquid dewars being used in the U.S., mainly on energy sites and fuelling stations. As huge quantities of liquid hydrogen are used in aerospace, the Kennedy Space Center in Florida is home to a storage vessel for 1.25 million gallons of liquid hydrogen. Underground caverns are also used to store hydrogen for use in the petrochemical industry, with three large-scale geological hydrogen storage caverns in the U.S. at present. Most of these caverns are excavated in salt deposits near areas intended for hydrogen use. The DoE roadmap identifies some of the regions in the U.S. most suitable for greater cavern storage development, both for hydrogen and for carbon from carbon capture and storage (CCS) operations.
The DoE highlights hydrogen storage as key for the advancement of hydrogen and fuel cell technologies for stationary power, portable power, and transportation. Due to its low ambient temperature density hydrogen has a low energy per unit volume, and it requires specialist forms of storage. Tanks used to keep hydrogen gas must sustain a high pressure of between 350–700 bars. And liquid hydrogen needs to be stored at cryogenic temperatures, as it has a boiling point of −252.8°C. The U.S. Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office (HFTO) aims to develop hydrogen storage options to meet the DoE hydrogen storage targets for onboard light-duty vehicles, material-handling equipment, and portable power applications.
In the U.K., the energy company SSE started work this month on the excavation of an underground cavern in east Yorkshire to store hydrogen for use when urgently needed. The project includes a 35-megawatt electrolyzer to produce green hydrogen that will be stored in the giant cavern. The hydrogen can be used to fire a turbine to supply power to the grid during times of peak demand. SSE hopes the Pathfinder project, which is expected to cost over $120 million, will offer a blueprint for larger-scale hydrogen storage projects in the future. It expects the project to be operational by 2025. Siemens Energy will be carrying out the project’s design and engineering work. SSE has even bigger long-term plans, having partnered with Norwegian energy firm Equinor to develop the Keadby hydrogen power station on the same site for 2028. It is expected to be the world’s first big 100 percent hydrogen-fired power station.
The firm hopes to attract government funding for its low-carbon hydrogen operations. As the U.K. faces record low temperatures and soaring energy prices, with fears of gas shortages, SSE is offering an alternative renewable energy that it expects will one day take the place of natural gas. The slow development of the green hydrogen sector is mainly due to the high costs incurred with the set-up of operations. However, government funding for these types of projects could help technologies advance more quickly and become cheaper to roll out on a bigger scale.
The European Union is also developing its hydrogen storage plans. It sees hydrogen storage as key to supplying renewable energy to power grids as needed. As hydrogen can be stored in large quantities over long periods of time, it offers greater energy security in the transition to green. It can help make energy systems more flexible, balancing supply with demand. This is an issue that plagues the green energy industry, as solar and wind projects often fail to provide energy during the peak hours of demand. New hydrogen storage facilities, as well as the expansion of the region’s battery storage capacity, could help boost reliable renewable energy provision.
As investment in hydrogen technology and production continues to increase worldwide, companies are shifting their focus to hydrogen storage as a means to make the energy supply from the renewable energy sector more reliable. This could support a more rapid transition away from fossil fuels, as well as boost energy security around the globe.
By Felicity Bradstock for Oilprice.com
More Top Reads From Oilprice.com:

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tahanson43206 · 2022-12-23 21:09:16

As a follow up to the oilprice.com article about hydrogen storage for industrial energy use, I wondered if it might be practical to store hydrogen underground on a smaller scale ...

About 33,200,000 results (0.59 seconds)
Almost 6 million U.S. households heat with propane — 4.9% of households.Nov 1, 2021
The Geography of Heating Oil and Propanehttps://energyathaas.wordpress.com › 2021/11/01 › the-ge...

It would appear that there are several million homes in the US that might be candidates for a well designed Hydrogen storage system.

Unlike with battery storage, there would be no deterioration of the energy deliverable content over time.

Unlike with thermal energy storage, there would be no deterioration of the energy deliverable content over time.

Unlike with any of the hydrocarbon energy storage systems, there would be no CO2 produced by use of the gas.

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kbd512 · 2022-12-24 02:18:08

tahanson43206,

Hydrogen storage makes more sense when the storage tanks are integrated into a fuel cell vehicle that can directly generate electricity for your home, in addition to functioning as a vehicle. As a separately installed backup or standalone power source, Hydrogen is less practical. We already have enough fires / explosions from Methane / Propane / gasoline / diesel generators and bad fuel storage practices.

I've never owned a portable generator. I'm aware of how they're used, how little use I would get from one (very low value proposition), and that they're not worth the hassle involved. Namely, dollar figures attached to destroyed properties and number of injuries from fires and electrocution. If I could plug my SUV into my home to power it for 2 or 3 days after a major storm, to include the AC units, then that's a much greater value proposition. The electrical equipment required to do that is not exorbitantly expensive and mass-produced. I need a car to travel most days, so if it can also power my home for a significant period of time then that's added value that is available when required, even though it will very seldomly be used.

A motor vehicle, unlike an infrequently used small portable generator stored in someone's backyard or basement, would be regularly serviced by trained mechanics. Most people don't regularly service portable generators or small engines. Heck, lots of people don't take good care of their vehicles, either. Cars and trucks are different, though, because they get used very frequently. It's easier to get away with bad maintenance practices when the fuel source isn't as easy to ignite as Hydrogen. However, skipping maintenance won't work with fuel cell powered vehicles. Failures to conduct periodic inspections for leaks and replace seals will result in "ka-booms".

Hydrogen also makes more sense for commercial aircraft, since weight is the mortal enemy of all flying machines.

narrow-bodiedhydrogen-poweredturbopropplanes-d6fffc5a759d47a28ca1c8f55d5d6504.jpg

Edit (Narrow Body H2-fueled turbofan concept airliner / A320 Neo class):

6a00d8341c4fbe53ef02788069d398200d-500wi

Aircraft do see regular maintenance, so however hazardous the fuel source is, the people servicing them receive far more training and the vehicles they service see far more routine maintenance. In this case, the combination of a Hydrogen tank in the fuselage and turboprops allows the vehicle to actually weigh less, when compared to a similarly capable kerosene fueled aircraft. The aircraft achieves greater fuel economy through the combination of flying a little slower than most jets, using a much lighter fuel source, and the lightweight design optimizations that compressed Hydrogen fuel would allow. Removing most of the mass of the fuel, as well as removing the fuel from the wings, permits the use of knife-like high-aspect ratio wings that are very good at minimizing lift-induced-drag at low to moderate subsonic speeds. Basically, we're talking about transforming airliners into sailplanes.

Since we're clearly never going to mine metals at two to four orders of magnitude faster rates than we presently are, all within the span of a couple of decades, without simultaneously drastically increasing CO2 emissions tied to all the diesel fuel required to do that, Hydrogen remains a far more practical potential solution than powering most of the world's vehicles / homes / businesses using short-lived and functionally non-recyclable Lithium-ion batteries / photovoltaics / wind turbines.

Where might we get a CO2-free source of Hydrogen in the quantities required?

Hydrogen is presently 1% of total energy consumption in America. We would need to scale that up by about 70 times.

Last edited by kbd512 (2022-12-26 09:43:35)

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-24 07:28:15

For kbd512 re #19

Thank you for your evaluation of the possibility of using hydrogen as an energy storage system for the home.

While your post covered considerably more than just this item, your opening suggestion of packaging home emergency power supply in a suitable vehicle is both practical (in the sense that it is highly likely to happen and may be available today), and attractive for the reasons you gave.

I know a number of folks who own generators, and I can confirm that they take ** good ** care of them, just as they take good care of all their mechanical equipment. On the other hand, I only know a few of the millions of people living in the United States (let along the world) so your pessimism about the average person may well be justified.

You have (understandably) chosen to NOT own a generator. However, if you ** had ** so chosen, your choices (up until recently) would have been limited to a gasoline powered portable generate, or a methane(natural gas) permanently mounted generator supplied by utility gas.

A neighbor has invested in an alternative ... he installed a portable natural gas powered generator. He has to manually start his model, whereas the more expensive permanent models elsewhere in the neighborhood start automatically 30 seconds after a power outage.

I appreciate your caution about the risks associated with storing a supply of hydrogen gas near homes or small business locations. While Google reported about 6 million households in the US with propane tanks, that does not mean all those households would want to convert to hydrogen stored energy if it were available.

In the case of a gasoline powered portable generator, the home or small business owner must maintain a stash of gasoline, which seems (to me at least) as risky as a tank of propane.

This topic has room for further insight by other members, so please feel free to contribute if you are so inspired.

This topic ** also ** has room for updates with reports of further advances in the field of hydrogen storage, which appears to be well on it's way to wide and large scale implementation, for the reasons given in post #18, and for others our members may (hopefully) be able to identify.

kbd512 has identified risks associated with storage of hydrogen.

I have identified risks associated with storage of propane.

It seems to me that civilization involves management of risks.

This discussion just inspired (for me for sure) an awareness of the entire field of risk management currently missing from My Hacienda.

(th)

kbd512 · 2022-12-24 13:00:29

tahanson43206,

Nothing is stopping anyone from flowing Hydrogen through a carb or fuel injector or PEM fuel cell setup. It's all been done before, many times. Hydrogen's a commercially available fuel product which provides 1% of the total annual energy supply, but there's no increased demand for it to power vehicles or generators because there are almost no vehicles or generators that use it.

Farmers and government or commercial users who rely upon their generators probably take better care of their equipment most of the time. I don't doubt that. However, the question is whether or not that's specific to that set of users, or broadly applicable to your garden variety generator users (home owner, construction workers, etc). Similarly, we can't compare how the military takes care of stealth fighter jets vs an owner-operator of limited means. Uncle Sam can throw almost unlimited personnel and money at an aircraft maintenance problem, whereas a private aircraft owner-operator with a single Cessna or Piper cannot, most of the time.

Gasoline is nowhere near as easy to ignite as Methane / Propane / Hydrogen. They all burn, but the similarity ends there. In a leak, the flammability limits of the mixture and vapor pressure are what determine how fast and easy an ignition can proceed to a full-on fire. Hydrogen is "better" in the sense that a gasoline fire can burn for quite some time, whereas the Hydrogen is all consumed in an instant. Unfortunately, in that instant it can deliver quite a wallop.

Would it be better if all of them could be converted over to using Hydrogen?

Probably, but where is that Hydrogen coming from?

I see Hydrogen as having the potential to drastically simplify the fuel supply and logistics chain. If you want to power a car or aircraft, then you get your hands on some Hydrogen. We already know how to transport the stuff using tanker cars and trucks, and we've done it for decades. You don't need mines in 20 different third-world countries that hate us (assuming Alkaline fuel cells), you don't need exotic manufacturing for most parts of the fuel cell, and you can repair a fuel cell, unlike batteries. Batteries are superficially more efficient if you ignore the energy cost of making them, recycling them, and replacing the tires every year.

If we used all the energy from solar thermal to make and transport Hydrogen, then we could forego lots of other energy-intensive processing steps, including expending power on CO2 recycling.

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-24 13:31:50

For kbd512 re #21

Thanks for another thorough analysis of the situation, and for your closing line.

It is often difficult (for me at least) to try to find something to build upon in one of your posts, because they seem to be so well constructed there is little that hasn't been covered/dealt with.

However, in ** this ** case, your closing line offers Calliban an opening, if he has a few minutes ** and ** has had time to study the reaction he described a short while ago.

If we used all the energy from solar thermal to make and transport Hydrogen, then we could forego lots of other energy-intensive processing steps, including expending power on CO2 recycling.

I remain interested in seeing a design for the minimal sized solar trough system that can produce product that has value.

Calliban (relatively recently) suggested that making hydrogen might be the best/most efficient use of a solar trough, because hydrogen not only carries energy due to it's readiness to combine with other materials, but it is a critical feed stock for many chemicals.

From ** my ** perspective, the principles of Specialization and Division of Labor point towards the simplest possible solar trough design, and making hydrogen looks (to me at least) like a candidate.

Members of the NewMars forum, like members of every space oriented group I know about, have invested vast amounts of time and energy creating an archive of words, with some images added to the mix when the talent was available.

For all that, unlike the Mars Society, which has carried out a great number of Real Universe activities, NewMars forum has not yet produced any working hardware (that I know about).

There is more than enough talent in this group to accomplish something in the Real Universe.

I'd like to see that happen.

Topic: Mechanical Storage of Hydrogen

I went back and re-read the opening post, and reviewed the original inspiration, which was an initiative by SpaceNut to harvest mechanically held materials from the Martian regolith. Mechanically held materials are NOT chemically bound to the regolith.

Upon reflection, and subject to correction if necessary, I think it is reasonable to consider hydrogen in a tank (or an underground cavern) to be "mechanically" stored, so that discussion of such storage is within the scope of this topic.

Therefore, I would propose a Solar Trough design that stores hydrogen in a tank after processing water as input.

A minimal solar trough design might make a kilogram of container stored hydrogen per day.

How large would such a system have to be?

It should be possible to compute the amount of sunlight needed.

I'd expect that figures from Calliban about the process he is studying would be helpful.

I have just contributed another batch of words to the NewMars archive.

Hopefully we (members) will find a way to translate some of the words in the archive into working hardware in 2023.

I'll offer the goal of sequestering one kilogram of hydrogen from a single 24 hour Earth day.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-12-24 19:25:19

Hydrogen economy is the term from long ago and discussed here as well. It is always part of an excess energy system for later use. I agree kbd512, that if you are going to make it then you should be with direct use with a vehicle that makes use of a fuel cell.

Lots of videos exist for the green hydro or in this case brown hydrogen for injection form electrolysis for a running car with water source.
In fact, I believe I posted the video of a generator making use of that similar procedure for power generation.

I know that I could make use of the hybrid if it were running as a backup so long as I got gas. But for the most part it's going to get maybe twice a year used for these storms that knock out the powerlines by trees falling onto them.

Calliban · 2022-12-25 10:30:57

The technically easiest option for hydrogen storage, is the one we have used before.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_holder

Before the age of natural gas, town gas was manufactured from coal. This was 50-80% hydrogen by volume, with methane, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and nitrogen comprising the other 20-50%. Town gas was stored in large tanks, or gas holders at close to atmospheric pressure. It was distributed through cast iron pipes throughout urban areas.

In places without abundant natural gas, town gas could be produced using electrolysis and distributed through a low pressure pipe network. This is old technology, not new. Hydrogen has an energy density of 11MJ/m3, or about 3kWh/m3. That is about 0.1kWh per cubic foot.

Town gas was sometimes used as vehicle fuel in the first half of the 21st century. Bags of gas, containing hydrogen at ambient pressure, were attached to vehicle roofs. A volume of 3m3 of hydrogen would replace 1 litre of petrol or diesel. This was more suitable for large vehicles like buses, with low frontal area per passenger. But it was also used for cars. One of the problems with trying to use hydrogen an ICE fuel is its poor volumetric energy density, only about 30% that of natural gas and only 20% of propane. This means either lower engine power or a requirement to run the engine at higher speed.

In mainland America, hydrogen produced using solar thermal power in Texas and New Mexico could be distributed through steel pipelines to population centres on the east coast. The problem with this idea is that the low energy density of hydrogen would require much bulkier pipes to deliver the same energy flowrate as natural gas. However, the extremely low viscosity and low molecular mass of hydrogen may allow higher pumping speeds than is possible using natural gas.
https://myengineeringtools.com/Data_Dia … y_Gas.html

At close to ambient pressure, hydrogen could be blown through polymer lined concrete pipes.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-12-25 11:01:22)

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-25 11:27:41

For Calliban re 24

It is good to see you back on the board, and in particular, bringing your special insights and skills to the Hydrogen-as-energy-carrier challenge.

At the risk of trying your patience, I will offer an observation, in hopes it will inspire you to renewed exploration of your closing line:

At close to ambient pressure, hydrogen could be blown through polymer lined concrete pipes.

Here is the observation:

The work of Dr. John Hunter is recorded in the NewMars archive, and in abundance on the Internet. Dr. Hunter showed that hydrogen is the ONLY gas that can push a payload to orbital velocity through a gas gun.

The speed of sound in Hydrogen is given (per Google) as:

https://byjus.com/question-answer/the-v … -velocity/

The speed of sound in hydrogen at NTP 1270 m/s.

That would (appear to) equate to 1.27 kilometers per second

The span of the United States is given as 4,662 kilometers (give or take based upon locations chosen)

The conterminous United States extends 4,662 km (2,897 mi) ENE — WSW and 4,583 km (2,848 mi) SSE – NNW .
United States - Location, size, and extent
https://www.nationsencyclopedia.com › Americas › Unite...

There are 3600 seconds in an hour (by definition)

Here is where I cannot help but try your patience ...

4662/3600 is 1.125, so by extension of the speed of sound of Hydrogen, I would expect to be able to ship Hydrogen from one coast of the US to the other in under an hour and a half.

In other words, a specific molecule of H2 should (in this scenario) transit the width of the US in under 90 minutes.

With some trepidation, because I understand I am out on a very long and a very weak limb, I am asking:

Can humans ship Hydrogen from one coast of the US to the other in 90 minutes?

***
PS ... thanks for your generosity in (once again) reminding forum readers of the history of town gas, with the special touches that your study of engineering history provides.

For any new forum readers who may be interested in exploring this topic, search for:
author: calliban
Subject: town and gas

(th)

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