2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

kbd512 · 2021-10-10 16:11:10

Regarding the entire "Russia Collusion" hoax / fraud / scam / sham / mockery of our justice system / sheer utter nonsense, for GW and others still peddling the L-I-E, here's what that same socialist, Jimmy Dore, has to say about it:

Bill Maher SHUT DOWN Over Trump-Russia Conspiracy

Billy Boy is STILL busy trying to continue to spread "THE BIG LIE" (aka, "The Russian Collusion Hoax / Fraud / Scam / Sham-Wow!"), but Matt Taibbi, one of the last few real journalists still around, knows full well that all of it is the biggest L-I-E imaginable. Matt Taibbi cheered when President Trump lost the election, but from the word "go", he knew that the endless lies surrounding the 2016 election were the result of leftists believing their own propaganda, and would eventually come back around to bite them in the rear end.

Hillary Clinton's lawyer has now been indicted by President Biden's Justice Department, not President Trump's Justice Department, for lying his worthless rear end off to the FBI and anyone else who was dumb enough / ideologically-desperate enough, to listen to him. Imagine that... The lie told by at least half of the politicians in the Democrat Party, for the past 4 years straight, is now coming full circle, and President Biden's Justice Department is prosecuting the scumbags who started the entire "Russian Collusion" fraud.

kbd512 · 2021-10-10 16:26:21

SpaceNut wrote:

Actually a states vote in the last election has little to do with whom is anti vax or mask as I have found first hand at work of which its die hard republican that are against both. They since must do so and have started getting them whether reluctantly as directed by command. Of course I am sure that there is some which did vote democrat in the mix of them that have been hold outs as well.
For those that have served the fact that we are at this cross road is not good as Hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops have not yet complied with vaccine mandate as deadlines near

For the businesses its about the bottom line in which they do not want to pay for the insurance charges for those that have gotten hit hard with covid-19. And for those that are not hospitalized its the sick pay of 10 days that they are required to pay. So to eliminate these they are forcing their employees to become vaccinated.

SpaceNut,

Businesses don't pay for bean dip to employees, except by contractual agreement. You even said so yourself. The insurance companies pay for medical care. For full-time positions, the corporation generally but not always agrees to grant a number of sick days and vacation days to their employee, under terms of the contract. If either the employer or employee wishes to change the contract, then either the employer or employee can terminate their contract with each other at any time.

SpaceNut · 2021-10-10 16:29:07

Eureka, kbd512 " why I can't be a Democrat, nor much of a Republican, either, apparently" its the constant lie by those in politics and their lawyers as they both think they are above the law.
Hopefully all will get what is coming to the lot of them.

Weekly pay roll deductions from the employers contribution to the insurance that you select of which you pay a portion of.
Not all states are at will for employment and are bound by state law for benefits.

kbd512 · 2021-10-10 16:46:08

SpaceNut,

Again, you keep describing in-place contracts. When I agreed to work for the company I work for now, there was zip / zero / zilch / nada in my contract about taking a COVID vaccine as a condition of employment. There's still nothing in my contract, two years after COVID began.

If the employer wants to change the contract by threatening employees with firing if they don't carry out the wishes of the corporation's management to undergo a medical procedure, then that's discrimination on the basis of medical procedure, plain and simple. It may be discrimination you agree with, but it doesn't change what it is. Incidentally, I feel the exact same way about labor unions who threaten to have everyone walk out if their demands aren't met, which again, is changing an in-place contract using extortion.

If you believe you're protected from COVID because you have a vaccine, then no matter what happens to the people who do contract COVID who don't have a vaccine, it shouldn't affect your ability to work, should it?

Unless the vaccine doesn't work, and then you're threatening people over not getting something that doesn't even work.

Can you begin to see how silly that is?

Want to know how I'd solve this problem without ever threatening anyone at all?

Create weekly jackpots of $100M+ for people who get vaccines.

Sit back and watch how many people get vaccinated. It'll make your head spin.

kbd512 · 2021-10-10 16:55:54

The government wastes our tax money on studying cow farts and giving a billion dollars to a country that created a super virus that murdered three quarters of a million of our people and counting, so why not this?

Give me one good reason why not.

SpaceNut · 2021-10-10 17:49:55

You mean that old

what did he forget today....

They now have a special light to destroy the cow farts....

then again President Biden has set a goal of lowering U.S. greenhouse gas emissions 50%-52% below 2005 levels by 2030.

electric heat pumps that are three to four times more efficient than furnaces. These devices heat homes in winter and cool them in summer by moving heat in and out of buildings, rather than by burning fossil fuel.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-roo … hnologies/

So about 3 grand or so for a home sized unit not counting installation

edit
Here is a company that does gas but I am wondering if it still needs some electrical
https://www.budgetheating.com/category-s/300.htm

kbd512 · 2021-10-10 18:36:10

SpaceNut,

Ah yes, we now have a "super weapon" to combat those dreaded cow farts, no doubt through intense study of animal flatulence.

Would that "special cow-fart-destroying light" be the UV light received from the Sun?

That's what normally destroys CO2 and CH4 and Ozone molecules in Earth's atmosphere, so I thought I'd ask.

Regarding the last bit of silliness about heat pumps, it doesn't matter how efficient something is when there's no electricity available, because there's no wind and no sunlight available. None of it is stored on any significant scale, that's for sure. Besides, math is racist and 2 plus 2 can sometimes equal 5, at least according to Democrat "teachers". I use the term "teacher" in the loosest possible sense of the word. They're putting ideas in the heads of children, though apparently not ones that require basic math skills.

In 2005, the US population was around 285 million people. The last time we were using 50% less energy than we were in 2005, the population of the US was around 150 million people. That was the 1950s for those who are ignorant of history. You know, the era Democrats claimed that Republicans were infatuated with. At least Democrats weren't importing millions of COVID-infected illegal aliens per year back then. As my father recalls, in the 1950s Democrats still mostly acted like they were Americans, rather than Derpistani tribesmen. Although many of them were true racists, like President Biden, they at least pretended to care about the direction of the country.

Ignoring that bit, if I read your article correctly, electric heat pumps that don't actually heat or cool every room in a house, are going to magically transport us back to 1950s levels of energy usage, using solar panels and wind turbines made by burning coal and gas in China. I guess it's a brilliant plan until we run out of coal and gas.

This, of course, has nothing whatsoever to do with COVID infections or vaccines or drugs, because climate change didn't cause COVID, whereas a bunch of Chinese scientists that we funded to dink around with lethal viruses in a poorly controlled lab experiment, actually did.

SpaceNut · 2021-10-10 18:49:21

Most layouts of the heat or cooling heat pump units run the Freon it to sub unit that is similar to the zones for other heating systems.
But yes electrical failure is a problem for all system that use it to make it function.

Of course covid from the lab came from the wild before we played god with it...
The fact that heat drives rapid cycles of growth and change has little to do with the nature creation of the newer species of corona...as in mutations.

kbd512 · 2021-10-10 19:06:45

SpaceNut,

I don't have much of a problem with anything electrical, but of course, none of this stuff IS actually electrical in nature. You and I both know that that is a L-I-E, and that 100% of it is electronically-controlled nonsense. A toaster doesn't REQUIRE a stupid microchip in it.

What do we know about electronics?

They're completely non-repairable for any reasonable price, they use inordinate quantities of resources for marginal efficiency gains, except for solving actual computational problems where they excel wildly beyond any other practical solution, and they don't last very long in operation, maybe 5 to 10 years tops.

It's just a scheme to get people to spend more money on more useless gadgets. The electronic gadgets themselves are now consuming considerable quantities of energy, both to make and to operate.

Heat alone hasn't caused COVID-19 spikes, whereas large numbers of people packed into small spaces clearly has. That's why COVID is much worse in cities than in rural areas. Pack people into buildings with poor to nonexistent air filtration systems like sardines, and eventually, whatever is going around, comes around. That is Communicable Disease Transmission 101 level stuff, and anybody capable of critical thinking, which is increasingly few people these days, should be able to figure it out.

SpaceNut · 2021-10-16 20:21:52

new data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention shows that the risk of dying from COVID-19 was 11 times higher for unvaccinated people compared to fully vaccinated people in August

The next variant could be even higher...

kbd512 · 2021-10-17 18:28:29

From the National Institute of Health's Website:

Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States

From the study:

Of the top 5 counties that have the highest percentage of population fully vaccinated (99.9–84.3%), the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) identifies 4 of them as “High” Transmission counties. Chattahoochee (Georgia), McKinley (New Mexico), and Arecibo (Puerto Rico) counties have above 90% of their population fully vaccinated with all three being classified as “High” transmission. Conversely, of the 57 counties that have been classified as “low” transmission counties by the CDC, 26.3% (15) have percentage of population fully vaccinated below 20%.
Since full immunity from the vaccine is believed to take about 2 weeks after the second dose, we conducted sensitivity analyses by using a 1-month lag on the percentage population fully vaccinated for countries and US counties. The above findings of no discernable association between COVID-19 cases and levels of fully vaccinated was also observed when we considered a 1-month lag on the levels of fully vaccinated (Supplementary Figure 1, Supplementary Figure 2).
We should note that the COVID-19 case data is of confirmed cases, which is a function of both supply (e.g., variation in testing capacities or reporting practices) and demand-side (e.g., variation in people’s decision on when to get tested) factors.
...
The sole reliance on vaccination as a primary strategy to mitigate COVID-19 and its adverse consequences needs to be re-examined, especially considering the Delta (B.1.617.2) variant and the likelihood of future variants. Other pharmacological and non-pharmacological interventions may need to be put in place alongside increasing vaccination rates. Such course correction, especially with regards to the policy narrative, becomes paramount with emerging scientific evidence on real world effectiveness of the vaccines.
For instance, in a report released from the Ministry of Health in Israel, the effectiveness of 2 doses of the BNT162b2 (Pfizer-BioNTech) vaccine against preventing COVID-19 infection was reported to be 39% [6], substantially lower than the trial efficacy of 96% [7]. It is also emerging that immunity derived from the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine may not be as strong as immunity acquired through recovery from the COVID-19 virus [8]. A substantial decline in immunity from mRNA vaccines 6-months post immunization has also been reported [9]. Even though vaccinations offers protection to individuals against severe hospitalization and death, the CDC reported an increase from 0.01 to 9% and 0 to 15.1% (between January to May 2021) in the rates of hospitalizations and deaths, respectively, amongst the fully vaccinated [10].
In summary, even as efforts should be made to encourage populations to get vaccinated it should be done so with humility and respect. Stigmatizing populations can do more harm than good. Importantly, other non-pharmacological prevention efforts (e.g., the importance of basic public health hygiene with regards to maintaining safe distance or handwashing, promoting better frequent and cheaper forms of testing) needs to be renewed in order to strike the balance of learning to live with COVID-19 in the same manner we continue to live a 100 years later with various seasonal alterations of the 1918 Influenza virus.

AN INCREASE IN THE RATES OF HOSPITALIZATIONS AND DEATHS, RESPECTIVELY, AMONGST THE FULLY VACCINATED...?

WAS THAT AN ADMISSION THAT A SINGULAR STRATEGY FOR SOLVING AN INCOMPREHENSIBLY COMPLEX PROBLEM LIKE A GLOBAL PANDEMIC IS NEVER A GOOD IDEA?

STIGMATIZING POPULATIONS CAN DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD?

YOU DON'T SAY... GEE WHIZ, DOC, YOU MEAN TO TELL ME THAT IT TOOK AN ENTIRE GROUP OF MD'S AND PHD'S, STARING AT A VERITABLE MOUNTAIN OF EVIDENCE, TO FIGURE THAT ONE OUT? GOOD GRIEF. NO WONDER WE'RE SO SCREWED.

IN SUMMARY, EVEN AS EFFORTS SHOULD BE MADE TO ENCOURAGE POPULATIONS TO GET VACCINATED IT SHOULD BE DONE SO WITH HUMILITY AND RESPECT.

IN OTHER WORDS, A "PERSONALITY TRAIT" THAT HAS NEVER BEEN DEMONSTRATED BY LIARS / LAWYERS / POLITICIANS / MEDIA PERSONALITIES (WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?), SINCE I'VE BEEN ALIVE (ALMOST 41 YEARS AND COUNTING). AND YES, LOTS OF OTHER GROUPS ARE EQUALLY TO BLAME.

WE'RE NOW LIVING IN DERPISTAN. IT'S A GLOBAL ALLIANCE OF IDIOTS WITH AN IDEOLOGY, BUT I'M NOT INTERESTED IN BEING A GOOD LITTLE DERPISTANI TRIBESMAN WORSHIPING AT THE ALTAR OF HERP, PRAYING FOR MY RATION OF FLERP, WITH THE REST OF THE DERPS.

One could easily be forgiven for thinking that this was never about science or "following the science", but rather "following the policy narrative". Narratives are stories. Stories are "made-up" nonsense to entertain the unwitting or entranced with the BS of the story teller. As long as it's understood by everyone that the BS is for "entertainment purposes only", there's no harm and no foul. When it's masquerading as "science", some of us have a MAJOR problem with that. Why, you might ask? BECAUSE BS IS NOT SCIENCE!

FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS "DO THE HERPTY DERP"!

DON'T BE A "GROUPIE" OF ANY PERSON OR IDEOLOGY WITH AN AGENDA, UNLESS YOU'RE 100% ONBOARD WITH WHATEVER WEIRD AND NUTTY NONSENSE COMES OUT OF THE 3 POUND UNIVERSES INVOLVED (THAT MASS OF GREY MATTER THAT NEUROLOGISTS CALL "A BRAIN", EVEN IF IT'S TOTALLY EMPTY OR FILLED WITH NONSENSE).

DO YOUR OWN THINKING, OR SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES.

I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT THERE'S NOTHING MORE EXPENSIVE THAN A "FAILURE TO THINK BEFORE YOU ACT". THERE ARE ONLY A CERTAIN NUMBER OF SPECIFIC RESPONSES TO SPECIFIC SITUATIONS THAT PRODUCE RESULTS THAT ARE MERELY SURVIVABLE, LET ALONE DESIRABLE OUTCOMES TO HAVE.

CONSULT YOUR OWN MEDICAL DOCTOR FOR MEDICAL ADVICE AND SEEK MULTIPLE OPINIONS IF YOU DOUBT THE KNOWLEDGE LEVEL OF ONE "EXPERT" VERSUS ANOTHER, NOT INTERNET WEBSITES, NOT THIS FORUM, NOT YOUR NEIGHBOR WHO KNEW A GUY WHO DID / DID NOT HAVE A VACCINE OR DRUG OR MAGIC TALISMAN, WHO DID OR DID NOT DIE FROM COVID, ALL BECAUSE HE DID OR DID NOT DO THE FUNKY CHICKEN DANCE.

DO NOT BLINDLY FOLLOW THE IDEOLOGY OF ANYONE, AT ALL OR EVER.

DO NOT THINK FOR ONE SECOND THAT ANYONE, REGARDLESS OF EDUCATION OR EXPERIENCE LEVEL, IS INCAPABLE OF MAKING CATASTROPHIC MISTAKES. THERE'S AN INVERSE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EDUCATION / EXPERIENCE AND THE ABILITY TO RECOGNIZE AND LEARN FROM ONE'S OWN MISTAKES. SIMILARLY, NO AMOUNT OF INTELLIGENCE CONFERS THE ABILITY TO RATIONALLY RESPOND TO A CRISIS WHEN IDEOLOGY IS INVOLVED. OFTEN TIMES, IRRATIONAL FEAR AND PARANOIA, ESPECIALLY WHEN MIXED WITH IDEOLOGY, ARE ALLOWED TO COMPLETELY OVERRIDE LOGICAL DECISION MAKING SKILLS. LONG STORY SHORT, TELL OTHER PEOPLE HOW GREAT YOUR OWN SPECIAL BRAND OF BS IS, AS MUCH AS YOU LIKE, BUT NEVER EVER START BELIEVING IT, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE IDEOLOGY AND CATASTROPHE INTERSECT.

ANYONE WHO THINKS THEY'RE INFALLIBLE OR THAT THEY SIMPLY "KNOW" SOMETHING WITHOUT PROPER EVIDENCE, OR SOMEONE THEY TRUST SAID SOMETHING THAT THEY THEN CHOSE TO BELIEVE OR GO ALONG WITH, OUT OF IGNORANCE, IS "EXHIBIT A" FOR WHY BOTH BAD IDEAS AND "GROUP THINK" (THE NOTION THAT "NONE OF US IS AS STUPID AS ONE OF US"- ANOTHER ASSERTION UTTERLY LACKING FOR EVIDENCE, LET ALONE PROPER EVIDENCE) ARE SO TERRIBLY DESTRUCTIVE TO HUMANITY.

louis · 2021-10-17 18:48:26

I agree with all you write but would add that the health disaster we are seeing unfold before our eyes (we have high excess death rates now in the UK) is also the result of corruption not just scientific hubris.

Big Pharma has corrupted honest scientific research and has also corrupted politicians (not that many of them need much persuading). China has corrupted the WHO and made it an instrument for implementing its foreign policy. Big Pharma working with Big Tech have become corruptly involved in politics e.g. deliberately targetting Trump's comments and delaying announcement of the vaccine development. The medical establishment have been corrupted by Big Pharma money and Big Government money. They have allowed themselves to become ideological creatures and have effectively abandoned the doctor-patient relationship. I'm referring here more to medical ideology. Medical ideology is a construct of ideas that are not rooted in science or observable data. Extreme vaccine ideology (promoted by Big Pharma) has now taken over the whole medical establishment, so that they have signed up to the project to replace our natural immunity (developed and honed over literally billions of years of evolution) with hundreds of vaccines (which they hope to administer orally in multiple form). There is absolutely no evidence this will provide better health outcomes than if we invested in other resources such as health education, vitamin and minerial supplements and so on. But routine multiple vaccination for the whole population will earn Big Pharma trillions and doctors millions at least. But - like a lot of Marxist ideology - the provax ideology has the advantage of being fairly simple while appearing complex and providing a seemingly plausible framework of understanding.

kbd512 wrote:

From the National Institute of Health's Website:
Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States
From the study:
Of the top 5 counties that have the highest percentage of population fully vaccinated (99.9–84.3%), the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) identifies 4 of them as “High” Transmission counties. Chattahoochee (Georgia), McKinley (New Mexico), and Arecibo (Puerto Rico) counties have above 90% of their population fully vaccinated with all three being classified as “High” transmission. Conversely, of the 57 counties that have been classified as “low” transmission counties by the CDC, 26.3% (15) have percentage of population fully vaccinated below 20%.
Since full immunity from the vaccine is believed to take about 2 weeks after the second dose, we conducted sensitivity analyses by using a 1-month lag on the percentage population fully vaccinated for countries and US counties. The above findings of no discernable association between COVID-19 cases and levels of fully vaccinated was also observed when we considered a 1-month lag on the levels of fully vaccinated (Supplementary Figure 1, Supplementary Figure 2).
We should note that the COVID-19 case data is of confirmed cases, which is a function of both supply (e.g., variation in testing capacities or reporting practices) and demand-side (e.g., variation in people’s decision on when to get tested) factors.
...
The sole reliance on vaccination as a primary strategy to mitigate COVID-19 and its adverse consequences needs to be re-examined, especially considering the Delta (B.1.617.2) variant and the likelihood of future variants. Other pharmacological and non-pharmacological interventions may need to be put in place alongside increasing vaccination rates. Such course correction, especially with regards to the policy narrative, becomes paramount with emerging scientific evidence on real world effectiveness of the vaccines.
For instance, in a report released from the Ministry of Health in Israel, the effectiveness of 2 doses of the BNT162b2 (Pfizer-BioNTech) vaccine against preventing COVID-19 infection was reported to be 39% [6], substantially lower than the trial efficacy of 96% [7]. It is also emerging that immunity derived from the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine may not be as strong as immunity acquired through recovery from the COVID-19 virus [8]. A substantial decline in immunity from mRNA vaccines 6-months post immunization has also been reported [9]. Even though vaccinations offers protection to individuals against severe hospitalization and death, the CDC reported an increase from 0.01 to 9% and 0 to 15.1% (between January to May 2021) in the rates of hospitalizations and deaths, respectively, amongst the fully vaccinated [10].
In summary, even as efforts should be made to encourage populations to get vaccinated it should be done so with humility and respect. Stigmatizing populations can do more harm than good. Importantly, other non-pharmacological prevention efforts (e.g., the importance of basic public health hygiene with regards to maintaining safe distance or handwashing, promoting better frequent and cheaper forms of testing) needs to be renewed in order to strike the balance of learning to live with COVID-19 in the same manner we continue to live a 100 years later with various seasonal alterations of the 1918 Influenza virus.
AN INCREASE IN THE RATES OF HOSPITALIZATIONS AND DEATHS, RESPECTIVELY, AMONGST THE FULLY VACCINATED...?
WAS THAT AN ADMISSION THAT A SINGULAR STRATEGY FOR SOLVING AN INCOMPREHENSIBLY COMPLEX PROBLEM LIKE A GLOBAL PANDEMIC IS NEVER A GOOD IDEA?
STIGMATIZING POPULATIONS CAN DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD?
YOU DON'T SAY... GEE WHIZ, DOC, YOU MEAN TO TELL ME THAT IT TOOK AN ENTIRE GROUP OF MD'S AND PHD'S, STARING AT A VERITABLE MOUNTAIN OF EVIDENCE, TO FIGURE THAT ONE OUT? GOOD GRIEF. NO WONDER WE'RE SO SCREWED.
IN SUMMARY, EVEN AS EFFORTS SHOULD BE MADE TO ENCOURAGE POPULATIONS TO GET VACCINATED IT SHOULD BE DONE SO WITH HUMILITY AND RESPECT.
IN OTHER WORDS, A "PERSONALITY TRAIT" THAT HAS NEVER BEEN DEMONSTRATED BY LIARS / LAWYERS / POLITICIANS / MEDIA PERSONALITIES (WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?), SINCE I'VE BEEN ALIVE (ALMOST 41 YEARS AND COUNTING). AND YES, LOTS OF OTHER GROUPS ARE EQUALLY TO BLAME.
WE'RE NOW LIVING IN DERPISTAN. IT'S A GLOBAL ALLIANCE OF IDIOTS WITH AN IDEOLOGY, BUT I'M NOT INTERESTED IN BEING A GOOD LITTLE DERPISTANI TRIBESMAN WORSHIPING AT THE ALTAR OF HERP, PRAYING FOR MY RATION OF FLERP, WITH THE REST OF THE DERPS.
One could easily be forgiven for thinking that this was never about science or "following the science", but rather "following the policy narrative". Narratives are stories. Stories are "made-up" nonsense to entertain the unwitting or entranced with the BS of the story teller. As long as it's understood by everyone that the BS is for "entertainment purposes only", there's no harm and no foul. When it's masquerading as "science", some of us have a MAJOR problem with that. Why, you might ask? BECAUSE BS IS NOT SCIENCE!
FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS "DO THE HERPTY DERP"!
DON'T BE A "GROUPIE" OF ANY PERSON OR IDEOLOGY WITH AN AGENDA, UNLESS YOU'RE 100% ONBOARD WITH WHATEVER WEIRD AND NUTTY NONSENSE COMES OUT OF THE 3 POUND UNIVERSES INVOLVED (THAT MASS OF GREY MATTER THAT NEUROLOGISTS CALL "A BRAIN", EVEN IF IT'S TOTALLY EMPTY OR FILLED WITH NONSENSE).
DO YOUR OWN THINKING, OR SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES.
I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT THERE'S NOTHING MORE EXPENSIVE THAN A "FAILURE TO THINK BEFORE YOU ACT". THERE ARE ONLY A CERTAIN NUMBER OF SPECIFIC RESPONSES TO SPECIFIC SITUATIONS THAT PRODUCE RESULTS THAT ARE MERELY SURVIVABLE, LET ALONE DESIRABLE OUTCOMES TO HAVE.
CONSULT YOUR OWN MEDICAL DOCTOR FOR MEDICAL ADVICE AND SEEK MULTIPLE OPINIONS IF YOU DOUBT THE KNOWLEDGE LEVEL OF ONE "EXPERT" VERSUS ANOTHER, NOT INTERNET WEBSITES, NOT THIS FORUM, NOT YOUR NEIGHBOR WHO KNEW A GUY WHO DID / DID NOT HAVE A VACCINE OR DRUG OR MAGIC TALISMAN, WHO DID OR DID NOT DIE FROM COVID, ALL BECAUSE HE DID OR DID NOT DO THE FUNKY CHICKEN DANCE.
DO NOT BLINDLY FOLLOW THE IDEOLOGY OF ANYONE, AT ALL OR EVER.
DO NOT THINK FOR ONE SECOND THAT ANYONE, REGARDLESS OF EDUCATION OR EXPERIENCE LEVEL, IS INCAPABLE OF MAKING CATASTROPHIC MISTAKES. THERE'S AN INVERSE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EDUCATION / EXPERIENCE AND THE ABILITY TO RECOGNIZE AND LEARN FROM ONE'S OWN MISTAKES. SIMILARLY, NO AMOUNT OF INTELLIGENCE CONFERS THE ABILITY TO RATIONALLY RESPOND TO A CRISIS WHEN IDEOLOGY IS INVOLVED. OFTEN TIMES, IRRATIONAL FEAR AND PARANOIA, ESPECIALLY WHEN MIXED WITH IDEOLOGY, ARE ALLOWED TO COMPLETELY OVERRIDE LOGICAL DECISION MAKING SKILLS. LONG STORY SHORT, TELL OTHER PEOPLE HOW GREAT YOUR OWN SPECIAL BRAND OF BS IS, AS MUCH AS YOU LIKE, BUT NEVER EVER START BELIEVING IT, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE IDEOLOGY AND CATASTROPHE INTERSECT.
ANYONE WHO THINKS THEY'RE INFALLIBLE OR THAT THEY SIMPLY "KNOW" SOMETHING WITHOUT PROPER EVIDENCE, OR SOMEONE THEY TRUST SAID SOMETHING THAT THEY THEN CHOSE TO BELIEVE OR GO ALONG WITH, OUT OF IGNORANCE, IS "EXHIBIT A" FOR WHY BOTH BAD IDEAS AND "GROUP THINK" (THE NOTION THAT "NONE OF US IS AS STUPID AS ONE OF US"- ANOTHER ASSERTION UTTERLY LACKING FOR EVIDENCE, LET ALONE PROPER EVIDENCE) ARE SO TERRIBLY DESTRUCTIVE TO HUMANITY.

kbd512 · 2021-10-17 21:07:24

Louis,

I'm not looking for agreement from anyone, I'm looking for serious thought given to having as many options as possible to solve a very complex problem, so long as the options used are all viable options. We're way, way past containment now, for example, so that's not a viable response, and why that utter nonsense they're doing in Australia is both horrifying and insufferably stupid. All of humanity can't be locked down for years on end. People still have to eat, if nothing else. When you go to war, you take the aircraft carriers / submarines / fighter jets / tanks / artillery / infantry... In other words, the entire military, not some specific part of it, presuming the goal is to win the war.

We have people here who think vaccines are silver bullets, people who think drugs are silver bullets, and people who think they can avoid all human-to-human interactions with the rest of humanity.

There are no "silver bullets" in medicine and there never have been. I don't have a working crystal ball and never met anyone who did, so I can't predict what the future will bring, but if history is any indicator, then holding out hope for one is probably a waste of time.

Apart from eventual death, there are no other certain outcomes in life. Life is about what happens between the beginning and the end, and everything we do between those two points is what matters most (to my way of thinking).

Relying solely on medications or solely on vaccines is like going to war with the sheath welded onto your bayonet or an empty magazine well where a fully loaded magazine should be present. Neither of those situations make any sense to me at all.

If your life literally depended upon all of your weapons working as intended, then why in the world would anyone intentionally handicap themselves in that way?

SpaceNut · 2021-10-17 21:38:18

The vaccines that everyone is receiving was for the covid-19 A variant to which we are seeing the D variant currently along with some others. It was indicated that limited protection might be possible from the current vaccines which seems to be a yes and no as it does seem to lower the death rates but is doing nothing for the other variants which could be getting passed around. Labeling all the variants covid has not helped to get the correct version of a vaccine created and used.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus- … nt-vaccine

kbd512 · 2021-10-18 00:45:24

SpaceNut,

As the COVID virus continues to mutate, the efficacy rate of the current vaccine will continue to decline, until at some point, there's no point to taking it, unless it's for political / ideological rather than medical purposes. Vaccines alone will fail if this virus mutates faster than we can design / test / approve a new vaccine to stop the next variant. Biden's administration has had the better part of a year to push an updated vaccine variant through, but thus far we're still dithering while administering vaccines for a COVID variant that is no longer circulating, because the virus evolved. President Trump's administration managed to get a vaccine ready in less than a year, when we knew virtually nothing about COVID.

Now that the Democrats are in charge of everything, what's their latest excuse for the total lack of progress on a vaccine update, or anything else that might be mildly useful to our country, for that matter?

Apart from the fact that Democrats are the smartest group of people who ever lived, who are somehow simultaneously utterly incapable of organizing their way out of a wet paper bag, because they're far too busy squabbling over how to spend other peoples' money.

Why is President Biden's administration attempting to force everyone to partake in medical theatrics, rather than a sound disease prevention plan? Is the former more appealing to them than the latter? I like a good show as much as anyone else, but if it's my rear end on the line, I prefer an actual plan.

I know, I know. He's a dementia patient and his second in command does a great impression of someone with bipolar disorder, but that's not a valid excuse for the people who voted for them. But hey, at least he's not the person who pushed the original vaccine through in record time and had American industry mobilized to start producing the stuff we needed (masks, ventilators, gloves), when we needed it.

Orthodoxy over ugly objective reality, any day of the week, am I right?

What's the difference between far-left and far-right religious ideology? Your guess is as good as mine. If there is one, then it's not apparent to me.

From where I'm sitting, it looks like we traded "mean tweets" for "does nothing whatsoever of any value to the American people, arms our mortal enemies with our own weapons, abandons our people to barbarian hordes, and invites millions of people infected with COVID to bum rush our border". All of that nonsense is a very hard "oh hell no" for me.

If 51% of the people vote to revert back to slavery, is "true democracy" still a good idea, or was there an underlying purpose behind having a constitutional republic, however imperfect it was in the past and will continue to be?

How about mass media and pop culture that pushes the narratives and talking points of their owners, rather than questioning our government and whether or not anything we're currently doing is in the best interest of the American people?

Ideology without rationality and morality is a bit like playing Russian Roulette with hand grenades, isn't it?

To my way of thinking, a sound disease prevention plan starts with producing a vaccine that demonstrates high efficacy against the current strain(s) of the virus, good personal hygiene practices to inhibit the spread since our global medical apparatus is a complete joke (that isn't the least bit funny, BTW) for handling mass casualties, and powerful drugs to mop up any break-through cases.

Along with all of that, there's this silly little matter of not allowing yourself to become 200 pounds overweight because COVID may very well be the straw that breaks the camel's back, and apart from getting you the right vaccines and drugs very early in the process, there's probably little to nothing useful that we can do for you if you do become hospitalized, except arrange some more medical theatrics for your family's sake while we fill out another toe tag.

The alternative, which we are exploring right now, is more death and destruction in service to an useless political / ideological idiocy. As Elon Musk said about climate change, "This is the dumbest science experiment ever. Why would you do this?"

While we're at it, maybe someone could tell us why our Democrats voted to give another billion dollars of our money to China, since their highly educated morons of biological technology or profoundly evil people (no other explanations pass muster for what the Wuhan Institute of Virology did), were the Derpistanis who caused this calamity.

This virus isn't going away. President Trump and now President Biden are both sticking their heads in the sand if they think it will. Vaccines will only ever be one part of the overall solution, even though they're an important part. We have more than a few people who are terrified of them, so they're never going to get them, even if the only alternative is a slow and painful death. You and I may disagree with them completely, but that's some pretty serious commitment if you ask me.

More Americans have now died of COVID under President Biden's administration, despite the widespread availability and uptake of the vaccine, than died under President Trump's administration, when no vaccine existed. If we had a vaccine variant that provided greater protection against currently circulating strains of the virus, then encouraging people to get the vaccine would make infinitely more sense than what we're doing now.

All I see going on right now is a steadily-increasing tribalism to every aspect of life, far too much worship of sacred cows (vaccines vs drugs, Ford vs Chevy, and other equally pointless debates), very little independent thinking (there's an endless sea of information available, but all those trees out there are called "a forest", which only means something to someone who's actually seen enough forests to know what they're looking at, but apparently fewer and fewer people actually have), and appeals to authority, rather than appeals to evidence. That's a downward death spiral. It's madness, and I want no part of it.

louis · 2021-10-18 06:30:54

Even eventual death is not certain now that Jeff Bezos is on the case! Although, I guess - statistically - you would have to die some time from an accident or major negative event like an asteroid impact, or collapse of the Sun...you couldn't live forever.

I do think (some*) vaccines should be in the medical cabinet but compared with good foetal care, good parenting, good housing, good clean air, good nutrition, good gut health, good levels of exercise, good natural immunity and so on, I think they are currently vastly overrated.

* Not respiratory pathogen vaccines

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,
I'm not looking for agreement from anyone, I'm looking for serious thought given to having as many options as possible to solve a very complex problem, so long as the options used are all viable options. We're way, way past containment now, for example, so that's not a viable response, and why that utter nonsense they're doing in Australia is both horrifying and insufferably stupid. All of humanity can't be locked down for years on end. People still have to eat, if nothing else. When you go to war, you take the aircraft carriers / submarines / fighter jets / tanks / artillery / infantry... In other words, the entire military, not some specific part of it, presuming the goal is to win the war.
We have people here who think vaccines are silver bullets, people who think drugs are silver bullets, and people who think they can avoid all human-to-human interactions with the rest of humanity.
There are no "silver bullets" in medicine and there never have been. I don't have a working crystal ball and never met anyone who did, so I can't predict what the future will bring, but if history is any indicator, then holding out hope for one is probably a waste of time.
Apart from eventual death, there are no other certain outcomes in life. Life is about what happens between the beginning and the end, and everything we do between those two points is what matters most (to my way of thinking).
Relying solely on medications or solely on vaccines is like going to war with the sheath welded onto your bayonet or an empty magazine well where a fully loaded magazine should be present. Neither of those situations make any sense to me at all.
If your life literally depended upon all of your weapons working as intended, then why in the world would anyone intentionally handicap themselves in that way?

kbd512 · 2021-10-18 06:44:17

Louis,

Sorry, but basic math and ye olde math skills, better known as "counting", flies in the face of the notion that vaccines are overrated. Fewer people have died since their invention and widespread use. That is a mathematical fact, at least for people who practice the dark art of "counting". I'm simply asking why we're not keeping pace with current events, now that our illustrious Democrats are in charge of the country. I stayed silent on the matter until it became blatantly obvious that we've gone right back to dithering about, instead of working on the current problems.

I don't care if President Biden is the country's most popular dementia patient, he needs to either do his job or the Democrats need to get someone who will. Every time we put Democrats in charge, they revert back to "I'm not responsible, it's the other guy's fault, quit asking me to do my job, because I don't know how." I'm pretty sick of that crap. If you want to be a leader, then lead. If not, then learn how to follow or stay the hell out of the way while better men and women get things done.

Edit:

Oh, and in case the point is abundantly clear, I'm pretty sick of the current Republicans sticking their thumbs up their butts and watching the Democrats put on their clown show while also doing nothing useful for the country. I'm going to vote for new people in the coming election. All of them need to go. Any politician who doesn't start moving the ball down the field within their first year in office needs to get automatically recalled, by law, for failure to due their duty. President Trump, or Tulsi Gabbard, or Nikki Haley, or Ron DeSantis are the only people I'd vote for President at this point. The rest of those clowns, from both parties, couldn't make money running a lemonade stand in the middle of the Sahara, selling lemonade to people dying of thirst. That's how utterly useless I think they are.

Last edited by kbd512 (2021-10-18 07:08:54)

Calliban · 2021-10-18 07:13:35

Maybe it's because the companies that developed the vaccines invested a lot of money and are now looking to cash in by selling as many doses as possible, effective or not. New vaccines for new variants implies greater cost. Dishing the old vaccines is cheap. Money is usually at the root of these decisions. And it is why the anti-vaccine crowd are hated and demonised. The more people that listen to them, the less profit the pharmaceutical industry stands to make and the less campaign contributions flow into political coffers.

There is also an element of bloody mindedness. Control freaks are in general obsessed with breaking people and bending them to their will. The final benefits are less important to them than the fact that you yielded to them. The political Left are always obsessed with control. Individual choice (and lives) are obstacles that stand in the way and must be obliterated to achieve ultimate ideals. The parties and individual names change. But the thinking always remains the same. And these people invariably end up building an empire of ashes.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-10-18 07:18:23)

kbd512 · 2021-10-18 07:18:26

Calliban,

There's still plenty of money to be made selling new vaccines that are more effective. They have a captive global market, and they're getting paid in advance by the governments, so there should be no issue here.

I'm never going to yield to morons who make a spectacle of themselves, and will continue pointing out their nonsense with gusto until I croak, which will probably be a lot sooner than I planned on, unless we get on with the process of making the new vaccines. I only need to live long enough to get my kids through high school. Any time I have after that is icing on the cake.

Edit:

Yes, a pile of ashes is what unchecked ideology ultimately leads to. We're living in a glass house where both groups of idiots are gleefully hurling stones at each other, oblivious to the consequences.

I want to live in an empire with real spaceships, colonies on other planets, not this pointless "steal from thy neighbor" idiocy, and a military that gives space aliens reason to think before messing with us. Someone needs to light a fire under NASA's administration, until we get those jobs done.

Whatever the hell it is that we're doing right now, and I don't even know what to call it, is not helping with any of that. Point is, we have bigger fish to fry.

Last edited by kbd512 (2021-10-18 07:50:53)

Calliban · 2021-10-18 08:53:25

Kbd512, Agreed on all points. I doubt that we will need to contend with space aliens, aside from possible bacteria that may give us the craps if we drink neat Europan water! I don't personally believe that we will be developing warp drive anytime soon, most likely never. But the sort of colonised solar system that is shown in the Expanse series, is a plausible vision of the 23rd century. Most people lack the imagination to look ahead to that. But that is the goal that humanity should be setting itself for the next 100 years: to colonise the solar system. And with the compact fission and IC fusion technologies that we have been discussing on this board, it is a plausible goal. And petty political squabbling, whilst all too human, isn't helping us get there. It isn't helping me set up my Utopia Planetia whisky distillery either. I hope to live long enough to taste the first batch of 10 year old. Which likely means I have 30 years to get it running!

Last edited by Calliban (2021-10-18 08:57:39)

louis · 2021-10-18 09:02:58

Not sure if you are aware of this but counting can sometimes be used to make things called "graphs". Look at the graphs and you will see steadily rising health outcomes throughout the twentieth century - largely attributable to shorter working hours, better schooling, improved public health, housing quality improvements, and access to health care. When vaccination became significant and standard, really from the early 50s onwards, the improvements continued. However, since multiple vaccination programmes got a grip in the 1990s we have seen children's health outcomes decline rapidly in the UK (also in the USA I believe). We are now in many regions seeing health outcomes go into reverse across the whole population.

Vaccination is not improving health outcomes. And be under no illusion: Big Pharma wants to replace natural immunity with vaccination - not 10 or 20 or even 50 vaccines but hundreds, to be administered orally in multiple doses. It's a public health nightmare.

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,
Sorry, but basic math and ye olde math skills, better known as "counting", flies in the face of the notion that vaccines are overrated. Fewer people have died since their invention and widespread use. That is a mathematical fact, at least for people who practice the dark art of "counting". I'm simply asking why we're not keeping pace with current events, now that our illustrious Democrats are in charge of the country. I stayed silent on the matter until it became blatantly obvious that we've gone right back to dithering about, instead of working on the current problems.
I don't care if President Biden is the country's most popular dementia patient, he needs to either do his job or the Democrats need to get someone who will. Every time we put Democrats in charge, they revert back to "I'm not responsible, it's the other guy's fault, quit asking me to do my job, because I don't know how." I'm pretty sick of that crap. If you want to be a leader, then lead. If not, then learn how to follow or stay the hell out of the way while better men and women get things done.
Edit:
Oh, and in case the point is abundantly clear, I'm pretty sick of the current Republicans sticking their thumbs up their butts and watching the Democrats put on their clown show while also doing nothing useful for the country. I'm going to vote for new people in the coming election. All of them need to go. Any politician who doesn't start moving the ball down the field within their first year in office needs to get automatically recalled, by law, for failure to due their duty. President Trump, or Tulsi Gabbard, or Nikki Haley, or Ron DeSantis are the only people I'd vote for President at this point. The rest of those clowns, from both parties, couldn't make money running a lemonade stand in the middle of the Sahara, selling lemonade to people dying of thirst. That's how utterly useless I think they are.

kbd512 · 2021-10-18 19:53:21

Louis,

My graphs show quite a few excess deaths these past two years. If COVID mortality rate reporting was merely an elaborate smokescreen, then the excess deaths wouldn't be so high. More than 4 million people have died of COVID while relying upon their "natural immunity", so fixating on that strategy to the exclusion of all others, similar to fixating on vaccines to the exclusion of all other treatment strategies, will only result in a lot more dead people. Pragmatists more interested in results than ideology would recognize that fact. I don't need to run the experiment again, because it's already been run and the results run directly counter to your claim, and not by a little bit.

You're buying your drugs from the same "Big Pharma" if you become seriously ill, so I'm a bit mystified as to why you think they care if you purchase more expensive drugs instead of less expensive vaccines. Then again, simple logic was never the strong suit of people peddling ideologies. The doctors working at the pharmaceutical companies have friends and families like everyone else. Everybody I know who is in business, is in business to make money. The more products you sell, even at incredibly low margins, the more money you make. That said, the vaccines are still the cheapest products they make. They'd make way more money by treating you and dragging out the dying process as long as possible. Edit: This is exactly what hospitals do, because they can't tell the patient's family, "Sorry, but no matter what we do, your family member probably isn't going to make it." Treatment is almost always more expensive than prevention.

What is Tylenol, if not a "vaccine against headaches", administered in billions of doses?

Last edited by kbd512 (2021-10-18 19:55:43)

SpaceNut · 2021-10-18 22:49:00

I agree kbd512 that we have something wrong with the companies that make the vaccines but then again the flu shot is a best guess from last years that is given this year. There again labeling everything with a broad term helps no one to counter the issue of health care when sick from the "FLU" (covid-19).

SpaceNut · 2021-10-20 21:11:37

The age difference is in for vacinated versus those which have chosen not to.
COVID death risk for age groups by vaccination status 6cb6d9f75ad81f80c88ac362d97e986c

louis · 2021-10-21 04:41:42

These comparisons are very skewed for two simple reasons: (a) if you are very ill and close to death the medical profession won't vaccinate you because you will likely die as a result of the vaccination (so the "unvaccinated" population includes the very ill and weak people who don't appear in the "vaccinated" category) and (b) rather than looking at all disease fatalities it compares only Covid deaths.

A far more appropriate comparison would be between healthy unvaccinated people and healthy vaccinated people, looking at all disease outcomes.

SpaceNut wrote:

The age difference is in for vacinated versus those which have chosen not to.
COVID death risk for age groups by vaccination statushttps://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/QeWt9qMLIL_ZWP8CpsxIEQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTcwNTtoPTI4OTtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/9oWIsAZuH7vIjTCfR3SqUQ--~B/aD00OTI7dz0xMjAwO2FwcGlkPXl0YWNoeW9u/https://media.zenfs.com/en/axios_articles_623/6cb6d9f75ad81f80c88ac362d97e986c

Last edited by louis (2021-10-21 04:43:30)

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