Appropriate Topics: On War and Politics

clark · 2003-04-11 10:28:24

Please check these links if you have the time.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003....=GOOGLE

The News We Kept to Ourselves
By EASON JORDAN

For example, in the mid-1990's one of our Iraqi cameramen was abducted. For weeks he was beaten and subjected to electroshock torture in the basement of a secret police headquarters because he refused to confirm the government's ludicrous suspicion that I was the Central Intelligence Agency's Iraq station chief. CNN had been in Baghdad long enough to know that telling the world about the torture of one of its employees would almost certainly have gotten him killed and put his family and co-workers at grave risk.

http://www.latimes.com/news....adlines

Scarred by Terror, but Daring to Hope
By Mark Magnier,

Abbas, who, according to relatives, was guilty of nothing more than being a Shiite Muslim in Sunni-ruled Iraq, had been tortured, an eye poked out, an arm broken and his chest burned with electrical wires. The regime of Saddam Hussein then delivered the clincher: Family members were asked to pay 30 dinars, a month's wages, for the bullets that killed him.

I still say we are doing the right thing, for the wrong reasons. Hopefully a greater peace will be achieved for all.

Bill White · 2003-04-11 10:41:42

I still say we are doing the right thing, for the wrong reasons. Hopefully a greater peace will be achieved for all.

Isn't that the story of Apollo and maybe the story of Mars?

Doing the right thing for all the wrong reasons?

clark · 2003-04-11 10:49:29

It's the story of man. But I think Apollo and Mars fit... I think I need to refresh my memory, it's been awhile since I looked at those two.

PaganToris · 2003-04-21 15:58:42

The so called war is rather amussing to me everyone says its all bout oil but its not if they wanted oil they could go to mexico and take their oil mexico has more oil than anyone!

dickbill · 2003-04-21 18:48:47

The so called war is rather amussing to me everyone says its all bout oil but its not if they wanted oil they could go to mexico and take their oil mexico has more oil than anyone!

Yes Pagan, olive oil, on the buritos it's good.
But you need a special weapon to invade Mexico, have you checked my weapons in other thread ? like the anti-indian device.
I precise again for those ignorant, mentally retarded and eurotrash, those who don't know that : this is a weapon against the devilish indians from INDIA ! not against our indians, who are good !

tim_perdue · 2003-04-21 19:44:25

The so called war is rather amussing to me everyone says its all bout oil but its not if they wanted oil they could go to mexico and take their oil mexico has more oil than anyone!

No, they'd go to Canada. Canada has more tar-sands and shale than you can shake a stick at, plus it would allow you to put nuclear missiles at the north pole where they could hit china, russia and europe without any notice at all.

space_psibrain · 2003-07-26 01:53:01

Its quite amusing how people will overlook the harsh realities of international politics and the balance of power...

dickbill · 2003-08-19 12:16:02

Why to worry ? everything is normal, the God of War is approaching Earth fast. August 27th, we will feel His evil power.

Palomar · 2003-08-28 07:02:58

*Well, all these months after the war in Iraq "ended," I can't help noticing that U.S. soldiers are getting ambushed and killed on a very nearly daily basis. Today a British soldier was shot and killed.

Conservatives scoff at criticism and smugly pronounce that liberals (I consider myself neither, but rather am a moderate) are "jealous" and "p*ssed off" that the "war went so well."

Oh really? And what's up with this past-tense business? It's going "so well," huh? The former (so-called) war is now a guerilla war...can we say "shades of Vietnam"? Sure we can. We have militant extremists and crackpots filtering in from Syria and Iran especially (it's difficult to tell them apart, just by looking at them)...our attempts to get Iraqis their water and electricity running again are failing miserably (thanks to saboteurs...as if we didn't know they'd be coming along)...etc., etc.

On yesterday's evening news I heard that it will cost the U.S. "tens of BILLIONS of dollars" to get Iraq back up on its feet and running like a democracy (or some semblance of it).

Tens of billions...wow. No wonder Social Security will be defunct in 10 years. Good luck to all those hundreds of thousands of aging (and ailing) baby boomers out there. Have fun eating generic applesauce in the 2nd-rate nursing homes, baby boomers...it's still better than what working, middle-class folks in my age category will get (so cheer up!).

You know, for just a while there, around mid-February, Bush and Blair nearly convinced me we might have a good reason to start the war in Iraq. Now I believe my original hunch was correct: It's about OIL. Rich man's oil.

Prior to and during the initial portion of the Iraqi war (the "formal" war), I saw people in various forums eagerly beating the war tom-toms, all fired up and ready to go over there and kick some ass. These folks sure are QUIET all of a sudden. Hmmmm....I wonder if they've rethought their original position.

And by the way: Just where ARE all those weapons of mass destruction. Oh, wait! Syria...right, they are now in SYRIA.

I'm still waiting for Donald Rumsfeld to PROVE it to the public, when he said he KNOWS precisely where the WMDs are (besides SYRIA, where they are allegedly now!).

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2003-08-28 08:23:08

I don't think it was about oil.
I think it was genuinely about security on a world scale.
I don't know where the WMDs are - maybe they've been destroyed or shipped out. Maybe there weren't any.
I still think Afghanistan and Iraq were justifiable wars.
I think the UN is impotent in such things.
I am so sorry for the U.S. and U.K. troops on the ground.
I am so sorry for the average Afghan/Iraqi trying to just live.
I hope very much that America will succeed in rebuilding both Afghanistan and Iraq despite the rabid religious lunatics.
I very much appreciate the sacrifices being made by America and Britain in the interests of democracy and security; a heavy burden.
From recent documentaries, I think western civilisation is up against it in a big way.
This terrorism isn't about poverty or oil; it's a war of ideologies.
Our enemy is without reason and without pity; a religious zealot, the worst of all possible opponents.
This enemy will not relent if we walk away. S/he will carry the war to us wherever we are.
This enemy does not comprehend liberal democracy and the rights of the individual.
In one form or another, we will be fighting this war for decades or longer; it may never be over.
But we have to fight it.
I, for one, will not go back to the middle ages, nor will I abandon progress.
I won't be told where to get off by some ignoramus who knows nothing, sees nothing, and cares for nothing outside his own twisted view of the contents of the Koran.
This is serious business.
The light of civilisation is worth fighting for, even to the death.
Let's do our best to make sure it's their death and not ours.

Palomar · 2003-08-28 08:31:59

I, for one, will not go back to the middle ages, nor will I abandon progress.
I won't be told where to get off by some ignoramus who knows nothing, sees nothing, and cares for nothing outside his own twisted view of the contents of the Koran.

*I believe Afghanistan was a necessary war; agreed. I agree with much of what you say -- especially being pro-democracy and pro-progress myself, and the very real dangers religious fundamentalist extremists pose to the West and our ways...but I don't believe this applies to Saddam Hussein. He is a very secular man, and roundly criticized/condemned by fellow Arabs for his lack of religious sentiment.

Hussein is an #######, yes. Good riddance to scum. But I'm not convinced it was *our* "duty" to remove him from the lives of the Iraqi people (even though I feel sorry for them...but it's their battle, not ours) and I do believe this is about oil.

The WMDs are still not accounted for, Iraqis are still without electrity and running water...but by golly the oil contractors sure got their share of the pie >pronto< and the oil has been immediately overseen and flowing out from Iraq itself (to Turkey, IIRC).

--Cindy

::EDIT:: The real terrorist threats have been used as a pretext for the oil war in Iraq...IMHO.

dickbill · 2003-08-28 09:07:52

The light of civilisation is worth fighting for, even to the death.

That's what for nuclear weapons have been created:
to Enlight the World.
Using the vivifiant Nuclear Fire that purify the Soul, We shall destroy the Axis of Evil. We shall be the Army of God against the Evil Army of the Crescent.
The Holy Nuclear Fire is like a Divine Breath for the Believer and an Eternal Tourment for the sinner.

Palomar · 2003-08-28 09:33:31

We shall be the Army of God against the Evil Army of the Crescent.

*Hmmmmm. Dickbill, don't you believe Usama bin Laden is a threat to the West? What about Al-Qaeda?

I believe they are very real threats.

I don't know how much strength we need to have to oppose them actively, because I don't know how strong they are; but I am quite certain that if they had strength comparable to that of the U.S. alone, they'd exterminate us as quickly as possible.

--Cindy

::EDIT:: I should add that it's not just the U.S. these rabid (as Shaun rightly refers to them) extremists are targeting: They are also committing murders and bombings in the Philippines and other pro-West nations. There are many similar examples. A religious war has been declared on the West in general, numerous times -- and not merely words, but also repeated acts of terror. I'm just not convinced Saddam Hussein falls into this category, nor that the war there was necessary and part of "the war on terrorism."

clark · 2003-08-28 09:55:55

The General one day asked the Tyrant, "Our armies are strong, the enemy, weak. Our forces superior in every way. Why do we not rout the infidels now, and return to peace?"

The Tyrant, with a wry smile replied, "Our place among the people is bought by the pound in fear. Would you make us all pauper's?"

The General, mulling this over, responded, "How long shall we allow our enemy to linger then?"

"As long as is useful. Better that our people fear them, than us.," the Tyrant murmured idly.

Palomar · 2003-08-28 10:07:17

The General one day asked the Tyrant, "Our armies are strong, the enemy, weak. Our forces superior in every way. Why do we not rout the infidels now, and return to peace?"
The Tyrant, with a wry smile replied, "Our place among the people is bought by the pound in fear. Would you make us all pauper's?"
The General, mulling this over, responded, "How long shall we allow our enemy to linger then?"
"As long as is useful. Better that our people fear them, than us.," the Tyrant murmured idly.

*This could be taken either way, i.e. could be thought of as applicable to either "side" (i.e. each side accuses the other of being this way).

Why not tell us YOUR OPINION of this mess, Clark? Anyone can dish out an anecdote...or dozens of questions.

Your >opinion<, please?

--Cindy

clark · 2003-08-28 10:31:17

Always with the opinions...

My view is pretty much the same: We did the right thing for the wrong reasons.

Looking at the larger situation, we had one choice in the Middle East, withdraw from Saudi Arabia. That's it in a nutshell.

Western infidels occupying Islam's holiest land, it was the rally call for the terroists. It was the pretext used by others to manipulate them into attacking the USA.

The USA couldn't leave though becuase of the fear of Saddam and his desires. We needed to keep him in check by having a massive military presence there to prevent him from developing nuclear capability. If he did, we would be hard pressed to prevent any of his hostile actions towards Kuwaiit or Sauida Arabia.

If he took those areas, the Western World would be at his mercy. One man would be OPEC. He could do things like demand that the USA and EU withdraw support from Isreal. He could control the economic growth of the world.

I am reminded of a song, "If I go there will be trouble, if I stay there will be double"

So with one option, we had two choices, either pack up, go home, and wait for Saddam to complete his plans, whatever they may be, or invade, thus leaving Mecca, and removing a potential threat to the economic well being of the world at the same time.

The American and British people were lied to, of that I have little doubt. Yet is can be argued that it was a neccessary deception.

Every life lost, on either side, is sad. It should be noted though that these 'gurellia's' are willing to die for what they believe in. If nothing else, we need to respect that conviction.

Don't most Americans say they would be willing to die for their freedoms?

dickbill · 2003-08-28 10:42:48

We shall be the Army of God against the Evil Army of the Crescent.
*Hmmmmm. Dickbill, don't you believe Usama bin Laden is a threat to the West? What about Al-Qaeda?

All the Villain Adorators of the Crescent are a Threat for The Holly Cross. These Heretics have refused the Enlightment of the Free and Civilized World and the message of God. But they will be Purified soon by the Holy Nuclear Fire, as the Arm of God is merciful, but also strong and just.
All this was said and prophetized in the Book of Revelation.
Times are coming.
If you are a Believer, you will be saved and the Holly nuclear Fire will pass on you like the Breath of God, But if you are an Adorator of Satan, the Number will mark your head and you will burn in Hell Forever.

Palomar · 2003-08-28 10:47:34

We shall be the Army of God against the Evil Army of the Crescent.
*Hmmmmm. Dickbill, don't you believe Usama bin Laden is a threat to the West? What about Al-Qaeda?
All the Villain Adorators of the Crescent are a Threat for The Holly Cross. These Heretics have refused the Enlightment of the Free and Civilized World and the message of God. But they will be Purified soon by the Holy Nuclear Fire, as the Arm of God is merciful, but also strong and just.
All this was said and prophetized in the Book of Revelation.
Times are coming.
If you are a Believer, you will be saved and the Holly nuclear Fire will pass on you like the Breath of God, But if you are an Adorator of Satan, the Number will mark your head and you will burn in Hell Forever.

*Okay.

--Cindy

P.S.: I took the Mark of Cthulhu on my soul a few years ago. I honestly did.

dickbill · 2003-08-28 11:09:25

P.S.: I took the Mark of Cthulhu on my soul a few years ago.

Our Prophet said notin against the Adorators of Cthulhu, so I guess it's okay.
But if you are an Adorator of the Crescent, your soul will be marked and you won't pass the test of the Arm of God easily.

Palomar · 2003-08-28 12:01:23

P.S.: I took the Mark of Cthulhu on my soul a few years ago.
Our Prophet said notin against the Adorators of Cthulhu, so I guess it's okay.
But if you are an Adorator of the Crescent, your soul will be marked and you won't pass the test of the Arm of God easily.

*I'd like to submit 1 more post to you, dickbill, regarding my sentiments on this:

Yes, there has been some religious talk on the U.S. end of it (especially ala Cowboy George and his lickspittles). However, I see *a lot more* religious talk/imagery coming from the radical, militant Islamicists. Since a very young child in the 1970s -- as early as I can recall -- I have repeatedly seen and/or heard the following from those people:

1. The U.S. flag being burned.

2. U.S. Presidents burned in effigy.

3. Civilian-targeted bombings.

4. Shouts of "Death to America"..."America is the Great Satan"...."Allah Akhbar (spelling?)"...and "Jihad!"

5. Domestic airplanes on domestic flights being hijacked, people murdered, stewardesses raped, etc. (all throughout the 1970s and 1980s). Same for at least 1 domestic/civilian cruise ship.

6. The 1972 Berlin Olympics terrorist activity.

7. The 1993 bombing of the WTC.

8. The 1997 (?) bombing of a U.S. Embassy in an African nation.

9. 9/11.

Etc.

And it's not just U.S. (pardon the pun) these nuts are perpetrating these crimes on. India gets it; the Philippines and other Asian nations, etc.

This reminds me, on a personal (and obviously small) level, of an incident with a former friend of my husband's named Tony, who got suddenly accused me of some unladylike behavior (which accusations were false). When I denied the initial accusation, he saw that as a "green light" to make another accusation and tried to verbally intimidate me. Am I supposed to just put up with this behavior? Turn the other cheek? Ignore it? No -- I told my husband. 3 years later this man continues to try to get my attention in traffic; will try to intimidate me in traffic (will tailgate me, rev his truck's engine to get my attention); whistles and honks at me, etc., etc.

What do you do with aggressive, goofy people like this? People who somehow justify, to their own minds, that it's okay for them to provoke and antagonize, and any measure of reaction is deemed "an eye for an eye" by them, and misconstrued as a challenge/invitation for further aggression?

I've witnessed terrorist action after terrorist action dozens of times since age 7, in 1972; all coming from the Middle East.

So what...do we just "take it"? Just turn the other cheek, ignore it?

Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda are, IMO, definite threats; at the very least, an eye should be kept on them! Just like I'm "on guard" against that Tony creep...

--Cindy

clark · 2003-08-28 12:13:11

Cindy, have you stopped to ask WHY they do all these things?

1. The U.S. flag being burned; 2. U.S. Presidents burned in effigy.

Why would they do this? What might be their point?

3. Civilian-targeted bombings.
Which civilian targeted bombings? I remember when the barracks were bombed in the Middle East. I remember WTC being bombed, but that is arguably an economic target.

4. Shouts of "Death to America"..."America is the Great Satan"...."Allah Akhbar (spelling?)"...and "Jihad!"
Why do they shout it though?

5. Domestic airplanes on domestic flights being hijacked, people murdered, stewardesses raped, etc. (all throughout the 1970s and 1980s). Same for at least 1 domestic/civilian cruise ship.
Criminal behaviour, isn't it? But then from their point of view, they are fighting a superior enemy in the only way they can.

This reminds me, on a personal (and obviously small) level, of an incident with a former friend of my husband's named Tony, who got suddenly accused me of some unladylike behavior (which accusations were false). When I denied the initial accusation, he saw that as a "green light" to make another accusation and tried to verbally intimidate me. Am I supposed to just put up with this behavior? Turn the other cheek? Ignore it? No -- I told my husband. 3 years later this man continues to try to get my attention in traffic; will try to intimidate me in traffic (will tailgate me, rev his truck's engine to get my attention); whistles and honks at me, etc., etc.

It would seem your solution didn't achieve the desired result. If confronted with the same situation, what would you do differently?

dickbill · 2003-08-28 12:26:22

So what...do we just "take it"? Just turn the other cheek, ignore it?
Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda are, IMO, definite threats; at the very least, an eye should be kept on them! Just like I'm "on guard" against that Tony creep...

It's really because it's you Cindy: so I'm gonna stop my imprecations and talk seriously:

I don't have any answers so don't ask me. I suspect my thoughts to be shaped by my biased education, the biased informations that I receive from the unfair and unbalanced media, my personal biased life. Everything is biased and suspect to me, including my own beliefs. The effects of telomerase shortening maybe.
I read a lot of Nieztche recently, that doesn't help.

At least Our Prophet has definitive and quick answers to everything: The terrorists ? Bring 'em on !

Palomar · 2003-08-28 12:27:16

Clark: "Cindy, have you stopped to ask WHY they do all these things?
1. The U.S. flag being burned; 2. U.S. Presidents burned in effigy.

Why would they do this? What might be their point?

3. Civilian-targeted bombings.
Which civilian targeted bombings? I remember when the barracks were bombed in the Middle East. I remember WTC being bombed, but that is arguably an economic target.

4. Shouts of "Death to America"..."America is the Great Satan"...."Allah Akhbar (spelling?)"...and "Jihad!"
Why do they shout it though?

5. Domestic airplanes on domestic flights being hijacked, people murdered, stewardesses raped, etc. (all throughout the 1970s and 1980s). Same for at least 1 domestic/civilian cruise ship.
Criminal behaviour, isn't it? But then from their point of view, they are fighting a superior enemy in the only way they can."

*Could it be they are isolated, brainwashed and ignorant, living in nations and a cultural milieu where 1 source for "the news" is the -only- source (i.e. they do not have the capability to "check" what they read and hear against a voice of opposition)? And because they hate us so viciously and rabidly, that means we "must" have done something to deserve/invoke it? I'm not implying the U.S. is above doing wrong, being stupid, perpetrating crimes itself, etc...because we're not. But I would like to see some PROOF that these people have a good REASON for their hatred (which, of course, would NOT justify their crimes); not unthinking, emotive religious hysteria -- just one solid reason.

--Cindy

clark · 2003-08-28 12:32:59

But I would like to see some PROOF that these people have a good REASON for their hatred; not unthinking, emotive religious hysteria -- just one solid reason.

How about exploitation? How about the lingering after effects of Imperialism and Colonialism? How about displacing hundreds of thousands of natives with others based on historical religious claims (Isreal)? How about supporting oppressive governments to meet our ends? How about undermining exsisiting governments to meet our ends? How about the fact that they are powerless to effect their will towards self determination becuase it would undermine our will and self determination'?

People kill for no reason. Nobody kills themselves for 'no reason.'

Palomar · 2003-08-28 13:53:07

But I would like to see some PROOF that these people have a good REASON for their hatred; not unthinking, emotive religious hysteria -- just one solid reason.
How about exploitation? How about the lingering after effects of Imperialism and Colonialism? How about displacing hundreds of thousands of natives with others based on historical religious claims (Isreal)? How about supporting oppressive governments to meet our ends? How about undermining exsisiting governments to meet our ends? How about the fact that they are powerless to effect their will towards self determination becuase it would undermine our will and self determination'?
People kill for no reason. Nobody kills themselves for 'no reason.'

*In what Middle Eastern nation has the U.S. ever played the Colonist? I can't think of a single one.

And didn't I admit that the U.S. has made mistakes, done wrong things (aside from the above, of which I can't recall a single instance), etc., etc.? Yes, I did.

And so injustice (or perceived injustice) justifies violence? There cannot possibly be any jealousy in the mix (we are wealthy and prosperous...they are not)? There is no option for these people but murderous acts of rage inflicted on civilians (including children)? It's okay -not- to try and THINK through a problem, no -- just whip out the machine guns and let 'er rip?

You still have not answered request to give -your opinion-
about all this (instead of simply sharing an anecdote and asking oodles of questions).

And recall, my dear Clark: Saudi Arabia itself was recently the target of terrorist activities (bombings, threats of bombings, etc.) by bin Laden's lackeys. How do you explain that?

It seems clear to me: To these people, "Islam" means "submission." Submission to THEIR interpretation of their religion (yes, there are many wonderful, kind, peaceful Islamic people who are absolutely opposed to violence and bloodshed, and who decry the terrorists and their activities -- let me acknowledge that right now). If you do not submit and "go along with the program" (regardless of who you are, where you live, what your ethnicity or race is), you are marked for death. Witness what occured on the shores of SE Africa about 8 years ago (can't recall the specific nation or date...sorry): Locals were on the beach, in swimsuits; radical fundamentalists saw them in their swimwear, pounced on them and beheaded every person in a swimsuit...because, in their eyes, being clad only in a bathing suit is "evil."

That's the mentality you are trying to get me to "understand"? Trust me -- I understand its nature just fine.

--Cindy

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