Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Void · 2021-10-09 19:47:52

(th),

It would not be that useful to make a drawing, as a schematic would be more propper.

For the moment I will do a simiple verbal continuance. Perhaps later some sort
of schematic.

As Mars is now, you would have to apply heat into the ice to melt a great deal of it.
You would need to allow an ice layer on top to remain. Most likely you would need
to remove some of the overburden of regolith.

At that point you would have a collumn of air<>ice<>water of some sort.

The air contribution would be ~5.5 mBar, except in the bottom of Hellas Depressio,
where it could be ~11.5 mBar.

The solids contribution will be the amount of ice and the amount of mechanical materials
above it. Mechanical could be many things, but for now we could consider a vapor
barrier and soil.

Below that would be water of some sort. It will have issues of temperature, and
salinity. Those can be complicated by using stratification.

So, any polder could have a variation on what I have presented so far. Many would not
have a barrometric/Liquid airlock. It is because of so many possible variations that
drawings will prove more trouble for the most part than it is worth. But I may try
something later on.

In the case of a polder with airlock(s), my first try would be the use of stratification
with salinity, in order to present a subfreezing mild brine, perhaps 2x the sea's
salinity. If then a hole is melted in the ice, we would be presneted with two potential
problems:
1) Boiling.
2) Evaporation.

Fresh water at the melting point of water, would tend to boil at 5.5 mBars, and not so
much at 11.5 mBars. If we create instead a brine and cool it to several degrees below
the freeze point of fresh water, then it is highly more likely that boiling would not
occur in either the case of 5.5 mBar or 11.5 mBar.

But evaporation would be very large, especially if the Martian wind was allowed to flow
across the open water.

We should then put a double room box over it as a vapor barrier, and capable of holding
a differential pressure of say 0 to perhaps 70 mBar. (Other options might be desired).

The reason for a 2 room structure, is the same as for a normal airlock. But in this case
if dealing with ~0-70 mBars, the strength of the structure can be minimized. Also, in
this case you are not going to mix air for humans with Martian atmosphere which has many
hazzards. In reality, ideally the interior pressure of the structure might be only a
few mBar, and the purpose of the airlock really would be more to seal in moisture from
the melted hole. Even then we should expect substantial water losses over time, as
the effort to make a perfect water capture might inhibit the efficiency of moving objects
up and down through the combinational airlock. But we have a lot of reason to think that
"Make-Up" water can be obtained from the icy lands adjacent to our built structures.

"Make-Up" water is terminology for "Replacement" water.

So, then we put a hoist over the hole in the ice which is protected by the two room low
pressure or no pressure airlock.

If the water just under the ice and in the hole is several degrees below normal freezing
point, it does not mean that the water below cannot be warm. In fact by putting even
more salt into those layers, you may get room temperature values.

This then allows humans/robots on the top of the ice to bring objects into the two room
airlock, connect them to a hoist, and drop objects down to the bottom of the lake. Where
divers propperly weighted and with breathing gear can retrieve them to whatever purpose
is desired. They might only need swimming trunks as most likely that would be polite.

I can go on, but perhaps I should seek more questions.

Done.

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-10 06:27:35

For Void re fluid air lock idea ...

Words are NOT sufficient, no matter how many you throw at the problem.

Science Fiction has been showing "fluid" airlocks for a number of years.

The problem to be addressed is how to provide a liquid that serves as a barrier between a volume of low gas pressure and one that is high.

I can't think of a way to achieve that, and words don't seem to be making a difference.

Please create another of your (very well done) drawings to show how a liquid air lock would work.

My worry is that the high air pressure inside a habitat would push a liquid air lock out onto the Mars landscape.

Please show me (and the entire world able to see the forum via the Internet) how your idea would work.

The invention, if you can get it to work, would be immediately useful to Mars visitors in the near future.

Update at 10:07 local time .... A liquid air lock might work if you add a mechanical element.

The exterior exposure would have a trap door mounted to slide horizontally over the surface of the water entry.

The air lock passage would have a sliding door mounted vertically inside the passage.

During use, both doors would be closed.

A traveler approaching from outside would command the sliding door to pull back, exposing the surface of the air lock.

My understanding is that on Mars, the water in the air lock would expand slightly, but would not over flow the opening. [needs checking[

After the traveler enters the air lock, the outer door would slide back closed.

The inner air lock would slide open. At this point, habitat pressure would exert itself on the water in the outer section, but the outer door would keep the water in the passage. No water would be lost [needs checking]

The traveler would move through the passage and enter the habitat.

The inner door would close again

The benefits of this system (that I am thinking of right now):

1) No habitat air is lost
2) No pumping is required
3) The dust of Mars is removed from the exterior surfaces of the Mars suit

The traveler enters the habitat for a brief blast of habitat air to remove remaining water, and removes the Mars suit.

This system is in contrast to the "traditional" method, of pumping air and losing quantities of it.

The method ** should ** be much faster than a traditional "pumping of air" system.

Can you create a drawing that shows this system in operation?

I have answered your many words with more words! It is time for a drawing to show the world what you've created.

(th)

Void · 2021-10-11 18:57:48

(th),

I will intend to compromise with you. I will try to get back into Imgur in the next
few weeks, so that I can at least make diagrams, and cut away drawings.

But for now I want to lay some more verbal groundwork.

However first I can show you a pictures of a barometer. This will very likely help
to show what the use of a fluid for an airlock might offer.

Actually annoying people have shown other things on the internet for the query of
Barrometer.

Lets see "U-tube Manometer".
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ut … BasicHover

The ones seeming to show a dial gage are not what I am after. The ones showing
a U-Tube with a fluid in it are.

This one could help communicate:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0

You might consider the green section as a representation of a habitat with a greather pressure than the surface of Mars.

The blue would be a fluid such as fresh water or brine. You will notice that
"H2" is greater than "H1" in vertical dimensions. That is because the Martian
ambient atmospheric pressure "Sucks" more than the pressure in the Habitat.
(Green color).

The fluid would indeed spill out onto the Martian surface, if the tube portion
for "H2" were not tall enough.

You have to keep in mind that the atmospheric interface for "H2" sucks more than
that for "H2". Gravitation is involved, as a fluid likely has a greater specific
gravity than does the "Atmospheres".

You might fill your kitchen sink with water, put a glass into it where it is
filled with water. Turn the glass upside down. Now draw most of it above the
water's surface, but do not bring the lip of the glass above the water's surface.

You will likelly see little to no air in the glass, as there is not enough of
a vacuum draw on the top of the glass to boil any of the water. If you had
a glass of very large length, then boiling would occur, depending on temperature,
and perhaps some other factors.

If you need more, then please inquire.

I am next going to discuss "Lake Vida" in Antarctica, with this set of notions in
mind. Specifically I am going to consider how close we could be to having a
Lake Vida on Mars. How far away as well.

Done.

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-11 19:19:16

For Void,

Thank you for looking for existing images that convey your idea!

The Manometer picture does what thousands of words could not (at least in ** my ** case).

I think you have an idea that has significant potential.

We have members who are good with numbers.

Is there someone who can use the Manometer example to show what a liquid airlock for Mars would look like?

What values would apply for H1 and H2?

Figure Habitat pressure equal to the RobertDyck standard atmosphere for Mars habitat.

See RobertDyck Large Ship topic for details on his specification.

Some day NewMars forum may have a fixed repository for critical data. That day has not come.

Update at 22:31 local time: The question I've asked may already have been answered, in Wikipedia or elsewhere.

The question is: What is the height of a column of water open to the atmosphere of Mars that would counter balance a Mars habitat pressure?

I found the post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 17#p173517

The habitat level is set to 1/2 Earth standard, with Oxygen at 3 psi less 10% for safety. Earth standard sea level pressure is 14.7 psi (per Google)

So the question at hand is how high a column of water would be if held by a pressure of 8 psi.

Mars gravity is given as .38 a standard Earth G.

Per Google:

In the case of the water stored in a tank, the pressure at its bottom is the weight acting on a unit area of the surface where the tank is kept. To translate that into an equation: Pressure = weight/area, and weight = mass (m) * acceleration due to gravity (g). This means pressure = m * g/ area.
Mar 14, 2017

The pressure to be matched is 8 psi (rounding up).

Area can be any arbitrary number, such as a square meter. The amount of water needed to match that pressure would provide the mass.

However, since we've been using the pressure values of RobertDyck, a square inch is a reasonable area.

How tall would a column of water be to exert 8 psi on the bottom of a tube on Mars?

I assume the g term would be reduced to .38 standard gravity of 32 feet per second squared, or (Per Google) 3.721 m/s**2

Google came up with this:

The weight of one cubic inch of water is 62.42718356 pounds divided by 1728 cubic inches, which equals 0.036126842 pounds of water per cubic inch.

We seem to be making some progress ...

We need 8 psi, and we have "0.036126842 pounds of water per cubic inch"

If we were on Earth the height of the column would be 221.4 inches, or 18.45 feet.

However, we are on Mars, so (I ** think **) the column would be 1/.38 times greater.

My trusty calculator comes up with 48.56 feet

(th)

Void · 2021-10-11 20:22:43

I am actually fair with these numbers, but help is OK.

Approximations are more sensible at this point as we have such a wide variety of possible combinations in various system situations possible. Later you do some more precise things.

-----
Lake Vida in Antarctica:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vida
Quote:

Lake Vida is a hypersaline lake in Victoria Valley, the northernmost of the large McMurdo Dry Valleys, on the continent of Antarctica. It is isolated under year-round ice cover, and is considerably more saline than seawater. It came to public attention in 2002 when microbes frozen in its ice cover for more than 2,800 years were successfully thawed and reanimated.

If I remember the numbers for this lake, it has an ice cover 60 feet thick.
It's water temperature ~(-13 degC).
Salinity, ~7 times that of sea water.

OK, the very interesting thing about this is that the waters have life in them.

Quote:

Life
Scientists have found life in an Antarctic Lake Vida that was sealed off from the outside world by a thick sheet of ice several thousands of years ago.[15][16] The discovery of the ecosystem pushes the boundaries of what life can endure, and may inform the search for alien microbes on other planets, such as Mars, or on icy moons, for instance, Jupiter's moon Europa.

So, anybody interested can read the rest on their own.

So, would you like to swim there under the ice? I think not without appropriate PPE.

But a point is that Mars is not to far from having been able to produce such a lake. So human manipulations to make one
are not too far off in fairy land, might be plausable.

The more likely methods would be to evaporate the CO2 in the Martian ice caps, and also add some greenhouse gasses.
or do so with a "Make-Up" water method.

You could go to Mars with a shovel and pickax, and manually obtain and melt ice, to make a lake. Of course that is
silly.

If we look at the soil covered ice slabs on the mid latitudes, (Which are partially regolith), we could make a hole,
and then install a Laser that would shoot out horrizontally. Of course that hole needs to have protective structures
installed. The Laser vaporizing the ice will create a high relative humidity. Then you just need a dehumidifier,
to collect the water. (Some compression method needs to be included). As for soil and rock in the ice, it should
settle to the bottom. If that does not work well enough, then some manual labor required, prefferabley robotic.

So, now you have tunnels in the ice that might be coverted to freezers, might be re-enforced by mechanical means.
And you collected, and can continue to collect significant water. Now you can collect enough water inside a
polder inside of a polygonal berm. You may be able to "Construct" and maintain with "Make-Up" water such a lake.

You would need salts that are not seriously toxic, but they should be available in the regolith. Washing regolith
with water obtained should cause the obtaining of them. How to neutralize toxic substainces? Well it has to be
done. Some methods needed.

So, I will grant you that a synthetic Lake Vida on Mars, is not in it's raw form very inviting.

But in time you would freeze on the surface of Mars, or in Lake Vida, lake bottom.

But you would have Hydrospheric pressurization and quite a lot of radiation protection.

Now that we have a Synthetic Lake Vida on Mars, and a good source of "Make-Up" water, we can attempt to do a
liquid air lock from the lake to the atmosphere. An intervening ice layer will be intermittent as to needs
and means.

-------

Certainly what I will propose now will not be done "Naked" but will be dressed in helpful embelleshments,
of machines and methods to be added. However, just now I want it to be presented with lest confusion, so
that perhaps the basics can be better understood for the degree they may work in a useful manner, and also
to show how it would be so much better then to add the "Embelleshments".

So, we have our synthetic Lake Vida on Mars. Then we drill a hole with a giant Auger .

It's 60 feet, for you Metrics, who cares? It's thick.

When we get to the water, it is 7 times as salty as sea water, and at ~(-13 degC).

I don't think it will properly boil at Martian atmospheric pressures. Maybe I will have to ratract, but
for now that is my stand on it.

Martian atmospheric pressures could be ~5.5 mBar (Mean), or 11.5 mBar (Hellas), or in a somewhat terraformed
Mars, ~11 mBar to >~23 mBar (Hellas).

It does not stop the fact that some significant evaporation will happen on the open water.

I could go into detainls, but for now, lets put a tripod with a hoist over the drilled hole, and move objects
in an out of the lake. We are apperently stupid so far, so we will just keep adding "Make-Up" water to
compensate for significant water losses out of the hole.

Then, perhaps we get a bright idea to put a tent over the hole, a tent with vapor barrier, and where
we can pressurize it at times to a few mBar above ambient. It's sill somewhat silly so it has a zipper.

So when it is zipped, and pressurized with Martian atmosphere a bit, it reduces evaporation. In fact
water from the bore hole actually condenses on the interior of the tent at times, and so we can reduce
loss and need less "Make-Up" water.

And then we think about a 2 compartment tent. That way the section over the bore hole never has to be
at less than say ~25 mBar (Just a guess). In that case vapor losses that cannot be collected as frost
on the tent walls is greatly reduced.

------

So, I guess I don't imagine I would take a vacation to swim in briny water at -13 degC. Lets add
nuclear fission and partitions in the waters of the lakes. Don't really want to cycle corrosive liquids
into and out of a reactor. But if you have partitions on the bottom filled with fresh water, maybe
that's better. That also heats the lake, maybe generates electricity for various uses including LED's.
For gardens.

So, lately in this post I have given some embellishments. Tents, and Fission partiations.

I am not anti-solar. Quite much less than I have so far indicated.

I need to be interested in "ALON" and Heliostats.

Things could be so much better with nuclear and solar.

That may be the next post. Tomorrow perhaps.

Done.

Void · 2021-10-11 20:28:11

I have some preliminary information about "ALON", "Transparent Aluminum".

It seems so far that I have indications of very good thermal shock properties.

It also has a high melt point. Possibly thin films of it have some flex. However I am not at all assured of that.

I made a two part machine some time ago.

It was comprised of part #1, a mirror of wood and Aluminum foil as a solar concentrator, and part #2 a box with a movable target which was blackened with paint. Part #2 was insulated thermally. I shined a focus into a window, and hit the blackened target and was able to through convection get temperatures that could melt Styrofoam. So, it did what I wanted. A high temperature convection wall.

But, I found that just the sun moving in the sky would thermally shock the window glass of the container, and crack it.

But, maybe "Alon" can hack it.....

I want to shine a bunch of heliostats into an "Alon" inclusive solar receiver.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-10-11 20:30:47)

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-11 20:53:05

For Void ... in thinking about your idea further, I've come to realize the U tube idea is the opposite of a traditional vacuum thermometer.

In a vacuum thermometer (or air pressure indicator) a sealed tube is filled with liquid and then inverted. The liquid moves down until the vacuum above the liquid matches the air pressure outside the tube.

The habitat airlock is the opposite. A column of liquid rising above the habitat opening is able to balance the air pressure inside the habitat.

The Manifold image you showed us is perfect to illustrate the concept.

I have not yet found any of the many posts by RobertDyck where he specified the exact pressure he wants/recommends inside the habitat. I found numerous posts by RobertDyck where he talks about suit pressure or any number of subjects other than the air pressure.

I ** think ** the magic numbers were 3 and 5 .... 3 psi for the suit and five for the habitat, but I could be wrong.

whatever the habitat pressure is, for your (Void's) water air lock to work, the column of water outside the habitat would need to rise above the habitat opening to an altitude that allows the gravity of Mars to pull the water column down with enough force to match the habitat pressure.

No mechanical seals of any kind would be required for this system.

A simple dust cover over the top of the vertical column would be sufficient to reduce or minimize evaporation of water due to exposure to the atmosphere of Mars.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-11 21:24:02

For Void re liquid air lock for habitat on Mars ....

I get 48.56 feet of water needed to balance a habitat pressure of 8 PSI (per RobertDyck recommended habitat pressure).

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 82#p185982

Please check my work. It may contain an error. I'd appreciate someone providing feedback.

For now, I'm going to assume a 48 foot (15 meter) water column would provide an airlock for a Mars habitat.

This seems to me like a fairly large number if a Mars resident has to travel that distance every time they need to go outside.

On the other hand, the system you have "invented" would NOT require mechanical seals or use of pumps or loss of air.

In addition, it would most certainly collect Mars dust from the exterior of the Mars EVA suit during the passage down the pipe.

All in all, I think this is a quite remarkable demonstration of your creative thinking having a possible practical application.

On the Moon, the standpipe numbers would be greater, but the need for dust cleansing is greater, so Moon residents might be happy to put up with the increased travel distance in return for the benefits.

Good work!

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-10-11 22:47:12

On earth 33 ft is 1 atm but for mars we will need to compensate for the lower gravity as well as the lower counter air pressure.

Void · 2021-10-12 06:35:33

Yes, it is a strange coincidence that for Mars ~~100 feet of fresh water column
matches about 1 Bar, or 1000 mBar. So 1 foot of water column makes about 10 mBar
pressure. This is approximation. It is sort of "Good Enuf" math.

Ice is about 9 mBar per foot, if fresh.

Brines are heavier so more than 10 mBar per foot. I don't have a number for that
in part because there can be many kinds of brine.

------

Robert's work on atmosphere is good, I feel, especially if it inhibits the "Bends",
and minimizes the required pressure for human health.

------
(th)
As far as handling toxins on a space suit, yes the lake water would dilute them
down. Also other members have suggested coveralls, that would be taken off and
stored. After that perhaps then to use a compressed air to help clean the
suit. Then maybe even a shower, where the contaminated water would go to a
cleaning process. Then finally into the borehole. And when on the lake bottom,
just about very cleaned up, I suppose.

Carbon Monoxide is also a problem, we do no want to mix Martian air and habitat
air. The liquid airlock, should be able to eliminate that problem for the
most part.

------

Now that the concept of a structure over the top of the bore hole, is understood,
that can be modified to be like a two room shack, which likely never has to hold
more differential pressure than say ~20 mBar.

Of course the walls of the borehole will need coverings.

The top of the borehole, can have a weighted lid, with a teflon coating. So,
if the airlock is not in use, you put it over the bore hole. We already want a
hoist, so then the lid might be placed using that. However I suppose the thing
does not have to be ponderously heavy. Another way to reduce water vapor losses
is to simply let the bore hole freeze on top. A heating method then would be
used to open it.

So, now if that setup is reliable, we could actually go to fresh ice water as
the lake content and the liquid part of the air lock. This may be useful for
things you want to bring through but do not want to expose to brine.

This liquid, (Fresh Water) would be ~13 degC warmer than the brine originally
supposed to be used. And for many kinds of equipment involving metals, less
corrosion.

We also have another option for the fluid(s). Various brine layers. On top
colder and less salty brine. Lower down warmer and more salty brine.

A stratification. This exists in some Antarctic lakes where the bottom can
be about 20 degC, and yet the top being about 2 times as salty as sea water
would be some significant measure colder than the freezing point of fresh
water. This will also resemble a Solar pond. In an emergency a person in a
weighted suit could jump into the borehole, and at first be in very cold
water, and then if down on the bottom of the lake, in better temperatures.

Done for now.

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-12 07:03:18

For Void re #35

Thanks for the interesting factoid of 100 feet of water on Mars matching 1 bar !!!

Yes, it is a strange coincidence that for Mars ~~100 feet of fresh water column
matches about 1 Bar, or 1000 mBar. So 1 foot of water column makes about 10 mBar
pressure. This is approximation. It is sort of "Good Enuf" math.

Since the Habitat of RobertDyck will be held at about 1/2 Earth standard, that would be 500 mBar.

The number of feet of water needed for the liquid air lock would be 50, using your Rule of Thumb.

I found your speculations about lids to be interesting.

Here is an additional thought to allow for convenient use of the liquid air lock by Mars residents.

If the airlock were designed with two columns, side-by-side but joined only at the tips, then an electric pump could pull water out of one and shove it into the other. This would create an elevator effect, similar to escalators in shopping centers of days gone by, A Mars resident would enter one of the flows to be whisked quickly from top to bottom or visa versa.

Regarding the suspended matter content of the water ... that is an interesting question and I suspect some experimentation is needed to find the optimum mixture. The surface of the liquid will open into the habitat, so it's "aroma" will be a concern to residents.

In addition, if there is anything in the water other than water, than whatever it is will be present on the EVA suit when it is removed after an outdoor excursion. I would imagine brine would not be welcome.

My guess is that in effort would be made to cleanse the water to remove Mars dust and any other contaminant.

You've spoken often of lakes, and perhaps a future with lakes on Mars is possible, but I think that a desert Mars appears far more likely for some time. A liquid air lock would be a luxury for those with great quantities of energy to invest in such a large quantity of water.

I expect the traditional mechanical door will continue in use for less wealthy residents for many Mars years.

Update at 9:19 local time .... Groups (such as cities and corporations) tend to be wealthier than individuals. Therefore, the Void Liquid Airlock is likely to show up at the entrance to a large habitat established by and for a group. In that case, the investment in water for the passage would be more than compensated for by the convenience of passage from the surface of Mars to the interior. Plus, the cleaning action of the water would (I suspect) be highly regarded when visitors from outlying farms are admitted to the facility.

All-in-all, I think this is a remarkable invention of your creative thinking!

SearchTerm:VoidLiquidAirlock
SearchTerm:Airlock liquid invented by Void

(th)

Void · 2021-10-12 11:30:03

Well, (th), I appreciate your willingness to have conversation on this material.

Some things look OK to me, some, maybe less so.

I can live with your apparent notions of what I have attempted to project. After
all indeed you may have some things to offer to make it better. I note your
liquid conveyor method.

I think you might need an understanding of stratified layers of brine. They
occur in both some Antarctic Dry Valley lakes by natural causes, and in Solar
ponds by human manipulation.

We reviewed Lake Vida previously which is interesting for its cold temperature,
and high salinity.

Now lets look at Lake Vanda, which will be somewhat different. Actually having
some photosynthesis, and solar warmed bottom water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vanda

Lake Vanda is a lake in Wright Valley, Victoria Land, Ross Dependency, Antarctica. The lake is 5 km long and has a maximum depth of 69 m.[2] On its shore, New Zealand maintained Vanda Station from 1968 to 1995. Lake Vanda is a hypersaline lake with a salinity more than ten times that of seawater[3] and more than the salinity of the Dead Sea. Lake Vanda is also meromictic, which means that the deeper waters of the lake don't mix with the shallower waters.[4] There are three distinct layers of water ranging in temperature from 23 °C (73 °F) on the bottom to the middle layer of 7 °C (45 °F) and the upper layer ranges from 4–6 °C (39–43 °F).[5] It is only one of the many saline lakes in the ice-free valleys of the Transantarctic Mountains. The longest river of Antarctica, Onyx River, flows West, inland, into Lake Vanda. There is a meteorological station at the mouth of the river.

Note that the bottom water is warm, even in antarctica, due, in part to saline layers.

This, then is a similar thing:
Solar Salt pond:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pon … th%20depth.
Quote:

A solar pond is a pool of saltwater which collects and stores solar thermal energy. The saltwater naturally forms a vertical salinity gradient also known as a "halocline", in which low-salinity water floats on top of high-salinity water. The layers of salt solutions increase in concentration (and therefore density) with depth. Below a certain depth, the solution has a uniformly high salt concentration.

Now then you may understand that with energy, from any source available we may have an environment which is warm.

------

But there are other ways as well.

We might choose a fresh water lake. Lets make the ice layer 50'/.9 = ~55.5 feet, so that can be our ice layer to get 1/2
bar minimum. We may also insulate the bottom of the ice with "Insulation". This might be something like diving bells
made of something like styrofoam. In this polder we do not bother with an airlock from the surface. We may heat the
water quite a bit before it would boil. Lets just say 20 degC or a bit warmer.

So now you may see, that with artificial lighting installed, (And also heating the water), we can grow crops. Many other
farming schemes are possible. The farms will be in the water.

As I have suggested multiple polders defined, in part, by berms, then we do not have to do the same thing with all of
them. Some may support liquid airlocks, for industrial purposes, and some may be of a different nature, per need such
as farming.

As for space suits in brine, I guess that will be as is practical. Certainly they could be flushed with fresh water,
at some needed point, if corrosion is a problem. If brine could get into them, then someone is an idiot in the design
of them.

But actually liquid airlocks might actually be a way to get bulk materials into and out of these complexes.

Done for now.

Void · 2021-10-12 12:20:33

It is becomming quite apparent to me that the "Greens" are an assult on representative
republics.

I see that their code is that they want a problem that cannot be solved, without the
manipulation of the human populations. They are trying to subvert our republic.

The name of the game in their world is to justify the collections of moneys, and then
to buy power/votes with it. Now, I actually approve in the notion of making the
burden of humans on the planet reduced by kind means, if possible. But this is, in
my opinion just some cloths the facists have put on to make them look suitable.

I think the naked uglieness benieth their disguise is real. In my opinion they are
not propper Americans, but rather slave traders at heart. But of course they are not
the only ones who seek to make a living by manipulating people.

I try to manipulate objects, which has it's own set of moral issues.

This is, by the way on topic, as I am going to attempt to re-mention a method to
perhaps fix some of the alaarms that they love to chime, so that they might convince
us to accept rape.

The idea that people should be manipulated to "Save" the planet has some merrit, but
for a people of industry, a better option if to figure out how to manipulate objects,
in order to at least in part accomplish the said need.

From what I have seen, so far many notions are rather silly, as if the intention is
to push the human race, and the west into submission of a world government, ruled, by
post human types, who have not evolved beyond the notion to eat the other peoples
productive abilitys, and replace them with relatively worthless genes and memes.

-----

So, then I was previously talking about what you might do with salt gradients on Mars.

Well, on the Earth, lets pick a body of water, perhaps one that is not so natural,
whatever that could mean.

Now, bodies of water that are to have a gardient of salts, need to not be stirred too
much.

In Antarctica, that is accomplised by ice that keeps the wind from making waves.
Similarly this could be done on Mars with ice, I believe.

Else, you might enforce a gradient, by extracting drinking water from a lake and
putting the brine into the bottom of it at a rate to counteract layer mixing.

Lets consider the Salton Sea as a model. The Aral Sea, and the Dead Sea might also
be nominated.

If we can make a network of "Floating Islands" out of Hemp products, and in part
float them with internal bubbles lacking significant Oxygen, then we may still the
mixing induced by winds. Windows would be left, for light to enter the water.
The exact size is to be determined. And of course crops to be grown on the floating
islands. To me this makes a lot of sense, as the proximity of water, will perhaps
to a degree limit frost.

And so we should have the ability to make the lower layer salty and hotter, and the
upper layer less salty. We may also control evaporation, as you do not have to
water crops, but may if you have excess useful water.

Humans don't think that way very well, however. I find that funny.

-----

Another thing that could be done, is to build a cavity of stone/brick. Have a window
of "ALON". Shine extra light into it so that it is warmer than the outside environment.
It could be just cool enough for organisims such as humans to tollerate. It could be
hot as hell. Put Anti-Solar Cells on the outside. I suppose nice warm parks in the
winter that generate electricty might be a attractive option.

Now in one method you have captured and stored energy, and have an electric output that
is perhaps enhanced by the cool of night or winters.

Of course I have my eye on this for Mars as well.

Done.

Void · 2021-10-12 15:46:48

The question of ALON.
1) Protect ice with it.
2) Make light tubes with it as a window.

Most of the materials for construction of what I propose will be ice and soil.

Up a level would be bricks. Those perhaps made with Urea and microbes and soil.

Beyond that then Metals, and ALON. Alon and Metals will likely be the most expensive.

------
So, I anticipate buildings made of brick inside of the polder burms.

The burms will define the polder horrizontally, and will hold down the brick buildings.

In that way they can be pressurized volumes. They might be used for habitations,
factories or artificial light farming. They will have brick passages into the polder
water.

Polders can be of various water contents.

-With thick ice and fresh water, is possible. With Styrofoam diving bells under the
ice, so that light fixtures can be inside of air pockets, and also so that people
could swim and come up and breath. I suppose places to sit in them, maybe land
plants. Artificial light, and and considerable safety.

-Thin ice with light and heat from the sun projected into them. Remember that I have
no dislike of nuclear either or anything else that might serve.

a) Just put hexigonal Alon domes over the ice. The the light must go through the
dome and ice. This could remove some of the U.V. which might be desired.

b) Build short towers, that have a more vertical alon window(s), and reflect a spectrum
from multiple Heliostats into them. In this case then the photon density can be
increased very much. The trick part of this is if you make and intensity as much
as the planet Mercury could receive, then there is the problem to not melt the ice that
this tube projects down into the lake with. Hard to solve, but perhaps it can be.

Probably there would be no attempt to filter the U.V. It is energy rich, and might
actually be beneficial to keep unwanted critters from growing in the lake below.

I guess in this case, we might have a situation where the water on top is cold, and
the water on the bottom warm. The high levels of salt and the U.V. will help to
keep it sterile.

Light will not normally travel through ice. Actually the water in the tower will
often be melted during the day.

This is a new one lots to tricks to develope.

To some degree a radiating heat exchanger to keep the base of the tower from overheating.
Lots of insulation, maybe thermos bottle type methods with a vacuum. Perhaps
Anti-Solar Cells. Also above, perhaps some sort of a method to collect heat and
send it into the lake. And then of course, the projection of visible light and U.V.
into the lake. This may not be particularly efficient, but may be sufficient.

Then, I guess in this version, some garden bottles with U.V. protection which would
be placed in the path of the defused light. You would need a defuser it seems likely.

While land garden plants are really the best, still aquiculture can be developed,
as it is easier. Even plankton methods where you may have a filter like a brine
shrimp that can pull the organic materals out of the water.

Agricultural waste could of course support crops of Mushrooms.

So, a method to collect some heat, generate Oxygen, and organic matter.

Of course one way to obtain Methane is to digest it without Oxygen.

So, really rocket propellants.

I will take a look and see if I need to further attend, but unless something comes
up I will go more silent.

Good luch with your efforts to create somthing of value, per this and that.

Done.

Void · 2021-10-12 15:48:35

This gives me the notion that ALON can tolerate high thermal shock. I really hope so.

http://www.surmet.com/pdfs/news-and-med … eramic.pdf

ALON

Void · 2021-10-13 10:16:25

I may be jumping around for a while here, but I want to capture this.

It could be a "Also Ran", or something very worth the trouble:
https://phys.org/news/2021-10-liquid-me … cient.html
Quote:

Liquid metal proven to be cheap and efficient CO2 converter
by Neil Martin, University of New South Wales
UNSW researchers have helped show how carbon dioxide can be broken down cheaply and efficiently via a process that dissolves captured CO2 gas into a solvent around nanoparticles of gallium. Credit: University of New South Wales
A global collaboration, led by researchers from UNSW, has shown how liquid gallium can be used to help achieve the important goal of net zero carbon emissions.

Engineers from UNSW have helped to discover a cheap new way to capture and convert CO2 greenhouse emissions using liquid metal.
The process can be done at room temperature and uses liquid gallium to convert the carbon dioxide into oxygen and a high-value solid carbon product that can later be used in batteries, or in construction, or aircraft manufacturing.
A team from the School of Chemical Engineering, led by Professor Kourosh Kalantar-Zadeh, worked in collaboration with researchers at University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA), North Carolina State University, RMIT, University of Melbourne, Queensland University of Technology, and the Australian Synchrotron (ANSTO).
Their findings have been published in the Advanced Materials journal and Professor Kalantar-Zadeh and his team say the new technology has the potential to be used in a wide variety of ways to significantly reduce the levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.
"We see very strong industrial applications with regards to decarbonisation. This technology offers an unprecedent process for capturing and converting CO2 at an exceptionally competitive cost," said Junma Tang, the first author of the paper.
"The applications could be in cars to convert polluting exhaust gases, or even at a much larger scale at industrial sites where CO2 emissions could be immediately captured and processed using this technology.
A selection of the UNSW research team who helped prove liquid gallium can be used to break down carbon dioxide gas. Back row: Jianbo Tang, Professor Kourosh Kalantar-Zadeh. Front row: Zhenbang Cao, Junma Tang, Claudia A. Echeverria. Credit: University of New South Wales
"We have already scaled this system up to two-and-a-half liters dimensions, which can deal with around 0.1 liter of CO2 per minute. And we've tested that running continuously for a whole month and the efficiency of the system did not degrade."
The newly discovered process dissolves captured CO2 gas into a solvent around nanoparticles of gallium, which exist in liquid state above 30°C.
The reactor also contains nano-sized solid silver rods that are the key to generating the triboelectrochemical reactions that take place once mechanical energy (e.g. stirring/mixing) is introduced.
A triboelectrochemical reaction occurs in solid–liquid interfaces due to friction between the two surfaces, with an electric field also created that sparks a chemical reaction.
The reactions break the carbon dioxide into oxygen gas, as well as carbonaceous sheets which 'float' to the surface of the container due to differences in density and can therefore be easily extracted.
In their paper, the research team show a 92 percent efficiency in converting a ton of CO2 as described, using just 230kWh of energy. They estimate this equates to a cost of around $100 per ton of CO2.
In order to commercialize the research, a spin-out company called LM Plus has been established with the support of UNSW's Knowledge Exchange—a program that helps transform research discoveries into successful innovations to benefit society, along with seed investment from Uniseed.

I am amused, as actually where the Greens need a problem that cannot be solved, in order to get political power, humans everywhere seem to be making valuable
contributions to a solution.

It is a very positive development in my opinion.

-----

In my opinion, COAL would be wonderful to have on Mars. To store liquid fuels, and gas fuels would be much more complicated and draining on economics and materials. (Similar things).

Of course this is not COAL, but "Close Enough". Hope this is real.

As for an Oxidizer, I at first though of a diluted Hydrogen Peroxide. However, we believe that their is a significant gift of Perchlorate salts in the Martian soils.

Perchlorate in Martian soils:
https://www.space.com/21554-mars-toxic- … icals.html
Quote:

The research emphasizes that perchlorate is widespread in Martian soils at concentrations of between 0.5 to 1 percent. There are dual implications of calcium perchlorate on Mars. On one hand, at such concentrations, perchlorate could be an important source of oxygen. But it could also become a critical chemical hazard to astronauts.

So, as I see it we want to remove much of the salts from the overburden which exists over the giant ice slabs, which seem to be available at mid latitudes.

So, then an effort has to be made to separate the "Normal" salts, and the Perchlorate Salts.

So, we get salts for the polders where we might want salts in them, and also, perhaps dry Perchlorates, (We hope).

So, we get to have both fuel and Oxidizer which could be stored in piles on the
surface as granular materials, which will not blow away in the wind.

This turns a to in my opinion.

Done, but more will come.

Last edited by Void (2021-10-13 10:28:00)

Void · 2021-10-13 10:59:16

OK, while it might be possible to get water for an initial mission, in my opinion, we
are going to want to master all of the water of Mars, even the poles. At first of course, the low hanging fruit.

Water and civilizations:
https://mrhonline.weebly.com/civilizati … water.html
Quote:

Vocabulary
Irrigation: To supply water to land or crops through water channels or similar methods.
Channel: A physical landform that is relatively shallow that allows water to be transported easily (Think of a gutter of a sidewalk)
Agriculture: The science and art of producing plants and livestock.
Society: A society is a large group of people who work together in an organized way and make decisions together on how work should be distributed.

I have read that the amount of water on Mars is ~115 feet over the whole planet.
That is not considering more deeply buried water or water locked in minerals.

That should be just fine to cover say 1/3 to 2/3 of the planet and also eventually generate an 1/3 Bar atmosphere.

Thaw the CO2 to get twice the existing atmosphere. Establish a friendly Hydrosphere, learn how to dig in the the Lithosphere, for habitation and minerals, and over time get a 1/3 Bar atmosphere of Oxygen. Not so bad in my opinion.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2021-10-13 11:02:58)

Void · 2021-10-14 11:14:34

This is an Imgur test. I will replace the drawing with something else, if all goes well.

Actually maybe later. Might as well use this, it is fairly close. The only difference is that this apex would be a berm for a polder(s), and water topped by ice would reach a good deal up to the apex. When I get a chance I will make a new drawing.

The dark brown might be bricks the light brown regolith. You can imagine that while the berm may have a buried arch, it may also have smaller branch arches that would allow access to the polder waters.

Hopefully I can get more up to speed with Imgur later.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2021-10-14 11:19:40)

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-14 11:26:05

For void re #43

At the price of replacing your ID with mine, I am here to applaud another (to me impressive) demonstration of mastery of the art of showing images via imgur.com.

OF 1939 recently spoke of an interest in showing an image of a chemical process in another topic, and while I am happy to help, I note that you are now showing skill in this specialty.

(th)

Void · 2021-10-14 18:35:00

I would regard his production as valuable.

Void · 2021-10-16 17:52:19

This post will, in part be in reference to :Index» Life support systems» Airlock Design for Mars Posts #1-#15.

From post #13:

I feel that it is really possible that we now have an expansion of understood possible tools, in dealing with pressure differentials on Mars and elsewhere, "How
to move people, materials, and other objects from differential pressures High<>Low.

We have purely mechanical airlocks.

We have liquid airlocks with or without mechanical assistance. Most likely, with.

We have ice airlocks per Louis. I do recall that GW Johnson once puzzled about
chambers of air in ice, which is worth noting.

We are trying to find the loopholes for survival on Mars. I fear that quite a lot of
persons have trouble identifying the possible pluses of Mars, but most can identify
the negatives.

It is a good passion to try to find ways to make the realities for Mars work for our
purposes.

A bit of pause now......Long or short. Don't know.

Last edited by Void (2021-10-16 18:01:42)

Void · 2021-10-17 08:33:29

Earth's Circumference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_circumference
Quote:

Earth's circumference is the distance around Earth. Measured around the Equator, it is 40,075.017 km (24,901.461 mi). Measured around the poles, the circumference is 40,007.863 km (24,859.734 mi).[1]
Measurement of Earth's circumference has been important to navigation since ancient times. The first known scientific measurement and calculation was done by Eratosthenes, who achieved a great degree of precision in his computation.[2] Treated as a sphere, determining Earth's circumference would be its single most important measurement.[3] Earth deviates from spherical by about 0.3%, as characterized by flattening.
In modern times, Earth's circumference has been used to define fundamental units of measurement of length: the nautical mile in the seventeenth century and the metre in the eighteenth. Earth's polar circumference is very near to 21,600 nautical miles because the nautical mile was intended to express one minute of latitude (see meridian arc), which is 21,600 partitions of the polar circumference (that is 60 minutes × 360 degrees). The polar circumference is also close to 40,000 kilometres because the metre was originally defined to be one 10-millionth (that is a km is one 10-thousandth) of the arc from pole to equator (quarter meridian). The physical length of each unit of measure has remained close to what it was determined to be at the time, but the precision of measuring the circumference has improved since then.

Mars Circumference
https://www.universetoday.com/66605/cir … x%20Radius.
Quote:

The equatorial circumference of Mars is 21,344 km (or 13,263 miles). This is the distance you would have to go if you wanted to travel completely around the equator of Mars.
You can calculate the Mars circumference on your own if you want. The equatorial radius of Mars is 3,397 km, so you can just use the mathematical formula, C = 2 x Π x Radius. Did you get the same answer?
And just for comparison, the equatorial circumference of Earth is 40,075 km. So the circumference of Mars is 53% of the circumference of Earth.

Undersea Power Morocco>>>>UK:
Renewable Baseload Power from a single desert location. Enough for 7 Million Homes, "Just have a think"
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Re … M%3DHDRSC3

So, I have not really bypassed the previous post materials, I want to investigate it further also using the materials of this
post.

A connection with the materials of both posts, could become incorporated into a terraform scheme for Mars.

After all the Circumference of Mars is ~53% of that of Earth. Also, the length of Martian year, 687 days, makes such a power system relatively more useful for Mars.
Length of Martian Year:
https://mars.nasa.gov/allaboutmars/extr … 0%20154%20

All the above is important, but so are
Isaac Arthur: Upward Bound: Power Satellites
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Po … &FORM=VIRE
I think he said that the energy is 7 times better than for the surface of Earth.
An interesting use of lasers in orbit of Mars might include deflecting asteroids and comets, perhaps to crash into Mars
with accuracy. Of course it might not be desired to take the damage. But Atmosphere for Mars?

But we do have the fact that to do orbital on Mars with Starships or Mini-Starships, of course can be SSTO.

-----

So, NORTH<>SOUTH grids might be very valuable on Mars. I do still think the thing to do is to master control of all
the water of Mars where it matters. As I see it this can include all of the above, and also moving water towards
the equator, and having many constructed polder lakes, and also crater lakes.

I think that this site has two historical neglects, (To a degree):
Occupying the polar areas, and Orbital activities for Mars. In my opinion these
things should be integrated into a Terraform/Occupy progression.

I am not shy about Fission Nuclear either in this scheme. I am wondering about
such that would warm and power polders and crater lakes. Those can store lots
of energy in layers of salt water. That would be good for global dust storms.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2021-10-17 08:38:20)

Calliban · 2021-10-17 11:10:49

As Mars has no tectonic activity, some artificial process needs to be applied to bake out volatile elements that have become trapped in hydrated minerals within the crust. Probably the easiest option would be to shut off selected areas of the Martian surface and then bake it to several hundred K using orbital mirrors. We would bake areas of several thousand square km, for at least a few centuries, to ensure that the local crust is warmed down to the mantle. The volatiles released would directly enter the atmosphere and vent holes could be drilled to facilitate this. A portion of the escaping water vapour would break down through UV flux adding oxygen to the atmosphere, with the hydrogen escaping into space. The majority would freeze out at the Martian poles.

Louis raised an idea some time back about placing aerogel sheets over the surface of Mars to trap sunlight and warm the surface. This would work provided someone was around to remove accumulated dust from the aerogel surfaces. A similar idea would be to build a solar chimney. This would consist of a large, circular, non-pressurised greenhouse, with a tall chimney in the middle. The area under the greenhouse would be baked to temperatures above ambient. The water vapour released has lower molecular weight than CO2 and will rise through the chimney. The chimney will be several km tall, allowing moisture to be deposited high into the Martian troposphere, where UV will dissociate some fraction of it. The concept could be assisted by orbital mirrors or nuclear waste heat pipes beneath the greenhouse.

Ideally, we would build terraforming towers that inject water vapour directly into Martian ionosphere, where collision with energetic ions would fully dissociate it. However, this would mean building towers 100km high, which would be difficult to achieve. Assuming that towers of this height can be built, then we could pump water into the ionosphere by injecting a mixture of water and liquid CO2 into a tube running up the tower. The CO2 would dissolve into the high pressure water at the bottom of the tower. As height increases and hydrostatic pressure drops, the water-CO2 mixture would turn to froth and would practically explode at the top of the tower, propelling ice crystals high into the atmosphere. Given that Mars has large reservoirs of frozen CO2 and may have liquid brines, a terraforming tower working on this principle can deliver huge fluxes of water vapour into the Martian ionosphere with minimal requirements for artificial energy. The injection of liquid water and liquid CO2 will require pumping power. But most of the power needed to raise the water column through the tower would come from phase change of the liquid CO2, which would convert a portion of the water column into ice crystals. Probably the best place to build something like this is the polar caps, where large quantities of dry ice are available.

TH has raised the idea of using geothermal energy in another thread. If we were to drill a sufficiently deep borehole into the Martian crust and fill it with brine and liquid CO2 (which is denser than water), natural convection would bring heat to the surface. The geothermal heat could be used to melt both CO2 and water ice into liquids that can be injected into the tower. Temperatures far beneath freezing can do this, as brine melts at temperatures down to -90°C with heavy perchlorate concentrations and liquid CO2 remains liquid down to -53°C at pressure greater than 5.1bar. Geothermal heat can provide the pumping power needed to inject water and L-CO2 into the tower, by boiling L-CO2 in boilers that directly power the pumps.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-10-17 11:42:38)

Void · 2021-10-17 15:20:53

Calliban,

Inside the "Hill Sphere" of Mars,
-Orbital Sphere.
-Atmosphere.
-Hydrosphere.
-Lithosphere.

Of course these interact.

If orbital energy assets existed, I don't think towers would be needed to pull H20
up into the high atmosphere. Just evaporate some ice with fairly intense heat.

The steam should in Martian air mix should rise both from the heat and from the
steam being a lifting gas in that situation.

This has triggered something else in my mind. If global dust storms occur often
when Mars is closest to the sun, could the energy budget be altered to suppress
a global one by having more local ones? I have previously suggested heliostats in
places such as Hellas, to cool down things, and so not allow global storms to be triggered.

However, if mirrors were to add energy to the pole which is in the dark, could this
take away the differential temperature, Hellas<>Pole??? and suppress such storms.

Also, could we trigger a local dust storm in Hellas, so that it gets cooled down
by the shade of the dust? So then to suppress the differential temperature which
may provide the energy needed for a global?

At the same time perhaps use the local storms to project water vapor into the upper
atmosphere?

At the same time I would want to have created a global magnetic field.

An interesting thought is that if you increase greenhouse effect for Mars, then
you should warm the poles more than the equator. This also may take away the
accumulation of differential pressure, and so perhaps to limit dust storms.

And then there is a possibility of a fog diode.

Just a few days ago, I read an article that supposed that Venus never did get oceans.

Their thinking is that the night side of Venus was kept warm during the nights by
a cloud deck, and so rain to reach the ground did not occur enough to build up
standing water very much.

I have thought of a cloud diode for Mars like that, and there have been articles
that suppose that indeed at the times where Mars did have raging rivers, such a
cloud diode may have occurred. In this case, it would have trapped heat on the
night side, which of course includes a pole at times for about 1/2 of a Martian
year. Mean while the day side clouds would evaporate into water vapor, which has
a rather good greenhouse effect.

So, if we could manipulate Mars towards that, that might be desired. However not
the raging rivers, as they would pull down the atmosphere. However mild rivers
might generate ice covered bodies of water, which is a thing of use, in my opinion.

With the use of Mirrors, and greenhouse gasses, we might bump Mars into a cloud diode.

As for dealing with the Lithosphere, yes I would think that in time techniques would
be developed, perhaps including melting rocks. I don't focus on that too much yet,
but good start on your part.

I am also deeply interested in how artificial habitats could be established in Mars
orbit. After all lifting materials from Mars itself is favored relative to Earth,
if you have the method(s) to do that. And of course Phobos, and Deimos, and the
Asteroids in general being closer to Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-10-18 09:57:06)

Void · 2021-10-18 09:49:09

I need to do some cleanup on my previous post, but my next one may very well
include this:

https://earthsky.org/space/mars-ice-is- … tudy-says/
Quote:

Mars ice is dusty and could melt, study says

Well, I at least cleaned it up a bit. I have this feeling that there is something I did not address, but, OK, I will have another look. OK, fixed a couple more. Good enough for now.

Prudence about power and politics instead (I deleted something)

Anyway, Mars seems to have had occasions where life might seem possible. I believe that for the most part, though it has not been friendly for life, at least for
a billion years perhaps.

So, it having been said on Interstellar, "Water...The stuff of life". And "Follow the water".

I believe that with Mars at it's current tilt, the place for life would possibly be just
at the base of the ice caps, and the edges of Korolev Crater.

At least for the North Polar ice cap, I believe that there is a ring depression around the cap, where the weight of the cap has deformed the crust, perhaps.

I am being bothered yet again. I will compose and paste and save from here.

Not done.

Last edited by Void (2021-10-18 10:07:22)

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