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#1 2003-07-28 05:32:44

Josh Cryer
Moderator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

112 Gripes about the French

"Americans believe in the right to criticize. We defend our right to "beef" or "gripe" or "sound off". We insist upon the right to express our own opinions. But we also believe in the right of others to express their opinions. For the right to speak involves the duty to listen. The right to criticize involves the responsibility of giving "the other side" a fair chance to make its point. We know that the truth can only be found through open and honest discussion, and that the common good is served through common attempts to reach common understanding. In one way, Democracy is the long and sometimes difficult effort which free men make to understand each other."

http://pasta.e-rcps.com/gripes/index.html

BBC article about this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3087785.stm

I just want to say... does the contrast to current events here, well... make you feel embarrassed? It does me...


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#2 2003-07-28 06:19:25

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

I think maybe we shouldn't rake up 60-year-old lists of GI grievances about the French. It seems counterproductive to do such a thing, and then to publish it and distribute it in France!
    I wonder who would want to do such a thing ... I mean who would want to foment ever more Anti-American feeling among the French people? And just when things were starting to settle down and the post-Iraq resentments on both sides beginning to subside, too.

    Hmmm. I just can't imagine which groups would be interested in such muck-raking and rabble-rousing ... can you?
                                     :;):


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

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#3 2003-07-28 09:11:39

Josh Cryer
Moderator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

Did you read it? smile

I think it's quite beautiful.

I don't think the US or anyone over here reprinted it. The BBC article seems to imply that someone in France reprinted it for nostalgic reasons (I did some digging and found that the publishers in particular deal with political and historical stuff more than anything- basic philosophy with some twists here and there).

It's clear that the US was more in touch with the reality of the situation back then, and in that I find my embarassment. At least, the people involved in the distribution of the pamphlet were in touch with the situation, we can't necessarily say that for everyone. smile

dickbill, have you read or seen this? smile


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#4 2003-07-28 12:12:03

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

*Well my sweetheart was French!  He may have been born in 1694 and I in 1965...what's a little frickin' age difference, HUH?  Geez, I practically LIVE in France (18th century, that is).

On a more serious note...I have been a "bad American."  My handbag is painted and sequined with a French perfume advertisement, with the Eiffel Tower in the background...I purchased "L'Air du Temps" perfume for my sister on her birthday (and splurged and bought an identical bottle for myself!) from a fashion house in Paris.

No, I don't know the French people, I haven't yet been there, etc., but most of my intellectual heroes were Frenchmen...so there!  Nyah.  wink

--Cindy

Edit:  For some reason, it blows my mind that the "112 Gripes about the French" pamphlet encourages easier identification with the Germans of that time than with the French!  Considering what Germany had been in the 1930s and 1940s...geesh. 

And where did the insult of calling the French "frogs" come from?


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#5 2003-07-28 12:24:41

Josh Cryer
Moderator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

Mine too, Cindy! Though I don't know quite nearly as much as you about the Enlightment era, I do love the French, and quite a few French philosophers. I do know a bit of Voltaire and Rousseau, but I confess, not much! Need I even mention, Pascal, Curie, Pasteur, Ampere, I could go on, and I totally failed history.

And need I even mention my favorite, Proudhon. smile

Anyway, what are you guys' favorite gripes? I think mine is 71. Very short. Very sweet. And stright up and to the point. Though perhaps a little heard on the Germans (it was a nasty war, so you must give us a little lee-way here).


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#6 2003-07-28 12:48:42

dicktice
Member
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2002-11-01
Posts: 1,764

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

Cindy: Always a refreshing outlook from you! I asked my Acadian French neighbors here, and it would seem that the French are called "Frogs" because they like frog-legs for dinner. You could call me a "frog" anytime, for that reason, because they are a real delicacy!

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#7 2003-07-28 14:35:56

space_psibrain
Member
Registered: 2002-02-15
Posts: 83

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

mmm...frog is tasty indeed


"What you don't realize about peace, is that is cannot be achieved by yielding to an enemy. Rather, peace is something that must be fought for, and if it is necessary for a war to be fought to preserve the peace, then I would more than willingly give my life for the cause of peace."

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#8 2003-07-28 16:48:21

dickbill
Member
Registered: 2002-09-28
Posts: 749

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

mmm...frog is tasty indeed

Hi all,
I'm just getting back from the Baltimore area and I quickly read this new thread. I will read it more in details later, but what I can say now is that: why do american people complain about garlic and stinky cheeses ? I had some of the local steamed crabs of Baltimore with that spicy, spicy is not the word, I should say explosive spice they put on the crabs, and my sensitive french gastro-intestinal tract greatly suffered the day after. But I have recovered now. These crabs are pretty good btw, a bit expensive however.

Other than that, here are some of my recent meditations:

Armstrong victory of course! one of the few able to win the
Tour five times. That guy has a strange metabolism, I've heard that his heart barely beats 20 times a minute. The Tour is so exigeant that I don't think, personnaly, that anybody could win six times, because of age matters. Too young or too old, the optimal age to win the Tour is probably between 25 and 35 years. But maybe Armstrong has a chance if he keeps his team and himself at top level. That would be exceptional.

Now about the topic of that thread, sure, anybody can complain about the french. They are pain in the 'a', who deny that ?: they always disagree and contradict no matter what can say and propose their own government, so they are difficult to govern, obviously they don't think as their neighbours and they like to critic them. But who doesn't critic his neighbour ?  Nothing new under the sun. But I would like to point out some new facts:
First the european union generates more and more exchanges between the young generation of the european upper-middle class. There are more and more bilingual youngs in France now, they also travel more.
Second the socio religious and ethnic background of France has been completely modified. Islam is now the second official religion in France, with 6 millions muslim representing 10% of the french population. This has happened in the last 30 years.
Think about it: You can change 10% (at least, I think it's more) of the french population and cultural background in 30 years, it's a direct proof that france is moving very fast, want it or not, within the new EU.
In short, many things that a GI of the second WW might have noticed are not true anymore. Generalisations were possible when France was an homogenous country and civilization, now, much less is homogenous in France. A GI might have complain that the french don't have Halloween, now they do have it. Halloween has been imported (just an example). The question is, can Halloween barely "survive" or instead can it spread culturaly in France ? So many old cliches are now obsolete. Surely it seems like a world wide globalisation, but definitively at the french sauce. And I think that the anti-french sentiment in (some) american people, in 50 years, could change like this: we "hated" the french, but we liked their  arrogance in a way, now they are gone, we miss them, where are they ?
They become rare but some are still there: who knows Michel Houellebecq's books "Platform" or "Elementary Particles" ?
I've read his "plateforme" and "particules elementaires", nothing to do with atomic science by the way, excellent and disturbing, a couple of guys in this Mars list could identify themself with the heros in Houellebecq's book, I am pretty sure of that.

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#9 2003-07-28 18:22:37

dickbill
Member
Registered: 2002-09-28
Posts: 749

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

Cindy: Always a refreshing outlook from you! I asked my Acadian French neighbors here, and it would seem that the French are called "Frogs" because they like frog-legs for dinner. You could call me a "frog" anytime, for that reason, because they are a real delicacy!

I confirm, I come from a region in France, Vittel, (the same little town that produces the mineral water of the same name) where there is a "festival" entirely dedicaced to frogs degustation (degustation doesn't mean disgusted, but eating something tasty ). So for one day, in april, everybody eats frogs (fried it's good). In an adjacent village, there is the same kind of festival, entirely dedicaced to.....snail degustation, of course. So for one or two days, everybody eats exclusively snails (butter, garlic, persil, salt) it is 3000% fat rich (liquid butter hmmm) but so good. At my best, I was able to eat 4 dozens of these snails. Obviously, to be able to digest that, you need a strong solubilizer and obviously, wine is the best for that. So a kind of "grey wine", actually rose wine, is consummed in astronomical quantity for that occasion.
So you see, these stories about the french are not legend, this is absolutely true.
This is my advice to american visitors in France, don't just stay in Paris, try to spot these century-old provincial events, because, as I said earlyer, you cannot be sure they will still be there in 50 years.

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#10 2003-07-28 19:15:24

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

Cindy: Always a refreshing outlook from you! I asked my Acadian French neighbors here, and it would seem that the French are called "Frogs" because they like frog-legs for dinner. You could call me a "frog" anytime, for that reason, because they are a real delicacy!

I confirm, I come from a region in France, Vittel, (the same little town that produces the mineral water of the same name) where there is a "festival" entirely dedicaced to frogs degustation (degustation doesn't mean disgusted, but eating something tasty ). So for one day, in april, everybody eats frogs (fried it's good). In an adjacent village, there is the same kind of festival, entirely dedicaced to.....snail degustation, of course. So for one or two days, everybody eats exclusively snails (butter, garlic, persil, salt) it is 3000% fat rich (liquid butter hmmm) but so good. At my best, I was able to eat 4 dozens of these snails. Obviously, to be able to digest that, you need a strong solubilizer and obviously, wine is the best for that. So a kind of "grey wine", actually rose wine, is consummed in astronomical quantity for that occasion.
So you see, these stories about the french are not legend, this is absolutely true.
This is my advice to american visitors in France, don't just stay in Paris, try to spot these century-old provincial events, because, as I said earlyer, you cannot be sure they will still be there in 50 years.

*Dicktice and dickbill:  Ah, so I thought...eating frog.  My mother ate frog legs as a child, growing up in Illinois (sans French heritage); she still craves them.  Apparently they had "frog round-ups" in that northern Illinois county until the 1970s at least; a plate of fried frog legs was a delicacy ("it tastes like chicken.").  They also ate a lot of turtle.  Hmmmm, turtles are so cute, I just couldn't.

Snails?  Escargot, right?  Sorry, I'd have to pass; they look so wormy to me.  sad  But to each their own.  Come to think of it, I don't like wine either.  But I would love to try many French dishes I've read about.  A beautiful full-color book in a local store enticed me; devoted to French cuisine and I was tempted to purchase it, but alas though I'm a very good cook I was very much intimidated by the -art- of French cooking.  I'm afraid I'd not be able to achieve that level of sophistry in my cooking, and I'm still debating buying the book and giving it a try.  It seems genuine French cooking calls for quite a bit of patience...which I happen to run short of.  sad

But when I get to France I'll certainly indulge...especially in those mouth-watering pastries, god they about drive me crazy looking at them in the cook book!  Oh! 

As for French cheese...Brie is a favorite.  I could happily gorge myself on Brie ("Ile de France" brand) cheese and
crackers, but I have to watch my weight.  wink

--Cindy


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#11 2003-07-28 23:24:25

Josh Cryer
Moderator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

In the end, dickbill, I think this is a critique on generalizations about cultures. The gripes aren't really gripes after all, once everything is decimated. They're just petty, thoughtless, complaints. And I think that's what makes that so interesting. That the US understood this enough to try to share these ideas with their troops.

Plus, I think it overviews the history of how France had to deal with war for so long. It puts things into perspective.

Anyway, Cindy, I ate froglegs when I was in Illinois. smile

It was pretty good, except it seemed to have a chemical taste to it. It may have been how they killed them.


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#12 2003-07-29 00:47:03

Josh Cryer
Moderator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

I just read your edit, Cindy. Don't read the gripes, read the responses. It seems like most of you guys just glossed over it! sad

tongue


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#13 2003-07-29 07:31:44

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

I just read your edit, Cindy. Don't read the gripes, read the responses. It seems like most of you guys just glossed over it! sad

tongue

*Whoops.  Sorry, I should have mentioned the response to the assertion that Americans (at the time) should/could more easily identify with Germans (law abiding, as opposed to the accusation that the French weren't law abiding or orderly people)...and the RESPONSE to that was, do we/should we really want to identify with people (Germans) who obey the law NO MATTER WHAT (relative to Hitler and the holocaust)?

I did read the responses, Josh; for whatever reason (rushed for time, I guess), I didn't incorporate the RESPONSE aspect in that particular post of mine.

--Cindy


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

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#14 2003-07-29 08:55:57

dickbill
Member
Registered: 2002-09-28
Posts: 749

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

In the end, dickbill, I think this is a critique on generalizations about cultures. The gripes aren't really gripes after all,

I understand Josh, I wasn't against the gripes, these gripes were not really naughty, and some were more a kind of nice and funny actually. My point was just that the concept of "France" is changing. It is a little bit fuzzy now and I don't know what it will be in 50 years really.
In 50 years: Corsica and other french islands could be independant, the french "departments" might be suppressed as I don't see the point to keep the concept of "department" in the bigger concept of "europe of the regions". For example, the departments of Moselle and Vosges might disapear to be raplaced by the bigger entity of Lorraine (the old Lotharingia), which has a real cultural background different of the region Britany for example. If the concept of "Europe of the Regions" overcome the national France entity, then, in the far future, it's not impossible that "France" could be replaced by the old, middle-age, feudal concept of Region.  All inside the European Union, you would have Corsica, Lorraine, Catalogna, Baviara, Scotland etc and all this within a bigger planetary globalisation.  Who knows what could be the EU in 50 years. Certainly not the "old europe" described by Rumsfeld. I am sure that Rumsfeld dreams and WANT an old, decadent and impotent Europe, poor Rumsfeld, he could be surprised if he lives long enough.

Whatever, I am not gonna live long enough to see that either and many could imagine a different outcome to my politic fiction description of the future Europe. All I know is that it is changing.

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#15 2021-09-12 08:46:39

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 912

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

The economy will be in trouble, Terror Attacks, Yellow Vests and finally the Corona thing and Coiv Lockdowns.

I feel its a pot ready to boil over now

Paris Mayor Anne Hidalgo enters French presidency race, she's the idiot who wanted to sue US media over reports about muslim no go zones

120,000 join French protests against 'health passes'
https://www.geo.tv/latest/370083-120000 … lth-passes
The French Are Rioting: Anti Passport Protesters Versus Mask Wearers!
https://flyheight.com/videos/3txuzu

Historic Bataclan terror attack trial begins in Paris
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/hist … s-n1278679
Protest erupts over vaccine passport in France
https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavir … 03a4f922fc

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#16 2021-09-30 01:18:31

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,711

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

I never had a problem with the French, so this is a new one, even for me.

It seems that we're attacking each other instead of the evil clowns behind the curtain, pitting brother against brother, while they rob us blind.

Something seems basically wrong with that.

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#17 2021-09-30 11:28:10

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,197

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

kbd512 wrote:

I never had a problem with the French, so this is a new one, even for me.

It seems that we're attacking each other instead of the evil clowns behind the curtain, pitting brother against brother, while they rob us blind.

Something seems basically wrong with that.

Correct.  Having lost their foothold in Central Asia, the globalist elite have now retreated to the fallback position of a naval iron curtain in the Pacific.

Brexit and AUKUS have created a renewed division between mainland Europe and the Anglosphere.  With Nordstream 2 cementing European reliance on Russia for energy, Europe is likely to be drawn into the Chinese led Eurasian alliance.  This may be the beginning of the end of US global supremacy.

I say 'may be' because the Chinese are not exploiting the situation as well as they could - aggrevating their neighbours instead of forming alliances.  And the Chinese energy security problem looks intractable to me.  They are producing half of the worlds coal on a reserve base 50% the size of America's.  Energy shortages are starting to shut down their economy and no one anywhere can export to the enough coal or LNG to make much of a difference, given the size of their energy needs.  Their entire strategy is based upon stretching their limited coal supply long enough to bring enough nuclear power on line to replace it.  They are building wind and solar capacity in attempt to cut coal consumption, by using coal plants as backup.  They are replacing subcritical boilers with supercritical boilers.  Their nuclear build programme is as big as the rest of the world combined.  But it doesn't look to me as if they can build enough PWRs quickly enough.


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#18 2021-09-30 11:42:44

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,711

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

Calliban,

I guess we'll find out soon enough.  This is moving a lot faster than I thought it would, and starting to look a bit like the beginning of WWIII.

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#19 2021-09-30 12:08:44

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,197

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

kbd512 wrote:

Calliban,

I guess we'll find out soon enough.  This is moving a lot faster than I thought it would, and starting to look a bit like the beginning of WWIII.

The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour was precipitated by Japan's inability to meet it's own energy needs.  The US had imposed an oil embargo on Japan after the Manchuria invasion.  The Japanese knew their only hope of securing sufficient oil was to seize Indonesia.  But the Japanese had to destroy the US navy before such an invasion could be attempted.  Hence, Pearl Harbour.

In the modern world, a similar shit fight could be precipitated by Chinese energy shortages, with eyes this time on Australia.  Nuclear submarines are the most effective defence against naval invasion.  Carriers are more vulnerable than they once were.


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#20 2021-09-30 12:46:21

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,197

Re: 112 Gripes about the French - Those annoying French...

China's energy supply is deteriorating fast.  How quickly the world is falling apart!  I wonder if we are staring into the face of a new Great Depression?
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-Gene … inter.html


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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