Thermal heat storage

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-03 06:56:59

For Calliban re #25

Thanks for the link to the EU thermal storage pdf

Efficiency
70 - 75 %

It seems to me that is quite an impressive level of performance for a system that includes mechanical components.

The lost thermal energy presumably goes to the surroundings, which could be a building, since there does not seem to be much risk involved.

I note that Argon is available at Mars. This system might be quite attractive there, to store power from Louis' solar arrays.

The pdf indicates an expected life time of 20-30 years ... the only parts that are likely to wear out would appear to be the pumps, and perhaps the motor/generator component.

SearchTerm:Thermal storage Argon system to store and recover thermal energy

(th)

Calliban · 2021-09-03 07:58:27

There are quite a lot of innovative ways that thermal energy storage could work on Mars in practice. We could gather solar heat using flat plate collectors at zero Celsius, say, and then use the panels as the cold source for a heat pump to provide hot water at 20, 30 or even 60°C.

We could build a polyethylene covered brine pond, with a lower layer that freezes at -70°C at night and an upper layer that remains liquid. During the day, the cold ice could then be used as a heat sink to liquefy CO2, which is compressed using PV power. We could use the liquid CO2 as an open cycle working fluid in heat engines, powered by concentrated solar power.

For a thermal battery carrying both a hot and cold store, you get the best energy density if both the hot and cold store undergo phase change during discharge, I.e. the hot store freezes and the cold store melts. But solid crushed rock is very cheap and there are no chemical compatability issues. Once built, it would last virtually forever. A hot tank full of rock and a cold tank full of salt water, might be a good way to go.

In a mobile application, the hot source could be the hot rock, the cold source liquid CO2, which would also be the expansion fluid. We don't necessarily have to use the same cold source to provide the heat source for both ends of the heat engine. We could for example, make liquid CO2 by pumping low grade heat into a habitat and then use direct nuclear heat or concentrated solar heat for the hot source. A mobile rover could unfurl a flexible night time radiator, to freeze a tank full of cold brine and then use a concentrating solar collector in the day to gather heat, or an RTG or small reactor. In the final case, the phase change material in the hot thermal store also functions as shielding and heat sink for decay heat. It also means that both the hot store and cold store can be charged at night, while everyone is asleep.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-09-03 08:45:13)

SpaceNut · 2021-09-03 18:02:35

Th, the "Desire for Louis is PV or electrical" and that is not solar thermal at all.
You need a flat panel collector, evacuated tubes or some other means to collect the solar ir band for thermal.
There are a great many working fluids for these types of collection systems.

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-03 18:37:50

For SpaceNut re Post #28 ...

The topic just went over 25 posts!

Can you find the Post # where I said something about what Louis wants?

I try to keep my reports and comments accurate, but your post #28 suggests I may have made an error.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-09-03 18:51:48

"Louis' solar arrays." have always been about PV type and have never been about thermal collection with always wanting to convert the energy to create methane and oxygen as a back up.

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-03 19:12:49

For SpaceNut re #30

Thanks for clarifying ... the post in question was #26

I had proposed that electrical power from one of Louis' solar arrays might be stored in a thermal device.

Your objection (as I understand it) is that Louis is saying he would never consider flowing electrical power into a storage device?

We need to hear from Louis himself.

I am looking forward to seeing what he decides.

My original idea in mentioning Louis at all was to give a nod to his support of the PV option for Mars.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-12-04 12:44:02

Found a second topic but this is about chemical conversion off the heat...

https://www.sandia.gov/ess-ssl/wp-conte … mal_Ho.pdf

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 … 00147/full
Experimental In-tube Flow Boiling Heat Transfer Correlations

Solar power tower convert sunshine into clean electricity. The technology uses many large, sun-tracking mirrors commonly referred as heliostats to focus sunlight on a receiver at the top of a tower. The enormous amount of energy, coming out of the sun rays, concentrated at one point (the tower in the middle), produces temperatures of approximately 550°C to 1500°C. The gained thermal energy can be used for molten salt, which saves the energy for later use.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/sens … _1217.html

SpaceNut · 2021-12-29 12:15:51

Following up on solar concentrating and for mars its about mass. So things that reduce mass are typically inflatable and we can do a reflector that can track in an inflatable system.

https://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/I … Report.PDF

of course this reminds me of the topic Spherical solar cells

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-16 11:00:09

This post starts out with SpaceNut as the initial correspondent. I am hoping that SpaceNut will pick up on the suggestion to be offered, as well as other members.

What I have in mind is a business opportunity for home (or business) heat management, by storing thermal energy and releasing it as needed.

Recent posts by SpaceNut, in the Thermal/Energy/Storage topic show how Zeolite can be used to store thermal energy. My concern with (what I understand about the technology) is that it uses water as a working fluid. I'm looking for a solution that uses just air as the working fluid.

Setup:

I have a furnace that is probably correctly sized for the house where it is installed. However, when temperatures outside plummet, as has been the case recently in this latitude, the furnace overheats due to constant duty. It tells me it needs a break when it reports that the air filter is clogged. The air filter is not clogged. The furnace tech tells me the "air filter" message comes from the computer when it detects overheating in the motor.

My solution is to dial the temperature down so the furnace can recover. However, this situation arises ONLY when the outside temperatures are severe.

What I'm thinking about is how to bank thermal energy ahead of need, so that when the furnace needs a break, there is a readily available store of thermal energy that can be released.

An example (and just a starting suggestion) is that a stack of bricks might be heated by an electric heater under a thermal blanket ahead of expected need.

When the furnace needs a break, the thermal blanked would be removed, and a small fan enlisted to move air through the thermal mass of the bricks.

There are probably better materials that might be enlisted for this purpose.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-01-16 11:17:44

The hot air furnace that ran on oil died a few years ago due to the water moisture in the cellar that is basically useless area due to the cinder block foundation walls.

Well air heat is sort of the problem for all homes and extra insulation is what is required first to reduce the heating need but even that is still going to be a problem if you get the structure to air tight in that you get moisture build up and then mold.

Currently since my water is to rusty to make use of for laundry we are drying the clothes and venting the heat inside the home which means while its drying we are getting 1 kw from the heating element in use not only drying the clothed but heating the home a bit.

The real trick is not to add to the cost of energy just to heat the home.

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-16 11:43:25

For SpaceNut re #35

I ** think ** your post describes the use of hot water to not only heat a home in winter, but to improve humidity.

During winter, I have a vent to direct dryer air back into the house, which has a similar effect.

The heat thus provided is electric.

***
Is the space where the furnace stood available? A pile of bricks might make a heat storage system if you heat the bricks with electricity and then direct a flow of home interior air through the mass to recover the heat.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-01-16 11:53:35

No hot water at all.

The cellar walls are uninsulated and is cold sink by the winter cold on the outside. This is since its a cinder block has cracks in between some of them that will allow the cold air to blow through as well.

The front side of the home has maybe 3 ft of it in the ground with the remaining exposed with the sides to rear gradually dropping to just a foot in the ground.

Sealing it and covering it with an insulated product is the step that I am needing to take first both inside and out to get the place warmer.
Next is to find where the water is getting in so as to make the cellar drier so that anything placed into it will not rot out.

We are expecting a snow storm over night into monday of 3" to a foot up north with freezing cold weather. Its currently just 45' F inside at the beginning of the clothes being dried. It should get to near 50 to 55 by night fall.

The typical outside wood burning for air heat system

https://www.wood-heating-solutions.com/ … -furnaces/
as low as $5,000 and up

https://www.outdoorwoodfurnaceboiler.co … URNACE.htm

home project
https://www.instructables.com/Fresh-Air … -Heater-w/
This is sort of what I am up against for air heating with the stove in the cellar but I have no access to the chimney pipe where I could grab heat from as its a stone lined chimney and not a pipe.

How to Circulate Heat From a Wood Stove Quickly Through a Home

heat by wood type
https://forestry.usu.edu/forest-products/wood-heating

to control the smoke setting
https://www.outdoorwoodfurnaceboiler.co … rters.html

SpaceNut · 2022-09-10 16:14:12

Geothermal is the access to store heat energy from within the earth as derived from its depths.

Calliban · 2022-11-17 11:27:50

Closed cycle CO2 battery.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GSzh8D8Of0k

This is actually a form of compressed gas energy storage, using CO2 instead of air. The advantage is that CO2 can be liquefied, whereas air cannot without cryogenic cooling. If compressed air energy storage were used with steel pressure vessels, capital cost would be high, because the air remains a compressed gas in the bottles. At 30bar, its density at 15°C would be approximately 36kg/m3. But under compression at <31°C, CO2 will liquefy to density of 1000kg/m3, similar to water. The downside to using CO2 (on Earth) is the need to contain and recycle expanded CO2 in a flexible bag, such that it can be endlessly recycled. This bag is quite bulky for the amount of energy produced by expansion. My crude estimates suggest that for each kWh of mechanical energy stored, about 7m3 of bag volume is required.

I have put this topic under thermal energy storage because the actual energy of expansion is stored that way. As the CO2 is compressed and its phase changes from gas into liquid, it gives up a large quantity of heat. This is stored in water and used to reheat the CO2 as it expands. So technically, any compressed gas energy storage is thermal energy storage.

On Mars, we could theoretically use CO2 batteries without bags. The problem is that the very low density of the Martian atmosphere would neccesitate a very large and expensive axial compressor. This would have large capital cost (and significant friction energy loss) per kWh of stored energy. On the plus side, the low temperature of the Martian atmosphere would reduce compression energy requirements. Stored solar heat could boost the yield from the expander. Maybe it could work.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-11-17 11:29:28)

SpaceNut · 2022-11-17 22:09:05

Yes, compression of even air generates heat for the tank that is receiving it. A scuba sized tank that will hold 5000 psi gets quite hot.

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-04 11:02:56

Here is a recent post by Calliban that seems well suited for this topic:

Calliban wrote:

Regarding thermal energy storage: Sensible heat storage may provide a reduced cost option at the expense of more bulk. By this I mean silos filled with crushed rock. Rock will be crushed into pieces no larger than a few inches in diameter. Heat will be introduced into the silo via an oil-air heat exchanger. A fan will blow across the heat exchanger tubes and transfer heat into the crushed rock. The air would return through an inner tube into an air-steam heat exchanger, which would generate the steam needed for power generation. The silo would be a double skinned, thin shell of low alloy steel with I-beams to maintain a cylindrical shape. Insulation would be provided the sand between the two skins.
The amount of energy stored in the rock is a function of the temperature difference between the hot oil and the steam. If a 10K temperature difference is sustained, then the energy stored per cubic metre will be:
Q= 3000kg/m3 x 1KJ/Kg.K x 10K = 30,000KJ (8kWh).
To generate 100MWe for 8 hours (night) at 33% efficiency, requires 2400MWh of stored heat. This would require some 300,000 cubic metres of rock. A cylindrical steel silo some 73m in diameter and 73m tall would be sufficient.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-12-04 11:49:49

The ability to hold the thermal energy in a variety of media types is what are choices that one makes sometimes not with regards to efficiency or size but are more to what you have to do a build with that is cost effective.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-06-07 07:25:00

Japan, some better news than your recent Toyota scandals

Heat-switch device boosts lunar rover longevity in harsh moon climate
https://phys.org/news/2024-06-device-bo … evity.html

Astronauts driving a vehicle around the landscape of the moon must not only face dangers related to zero gravity and falling into craters, but also the problem of extreme fluctuations in temperature. The lunar environment oscillates between blistering highs of 127°C (260°F) and frigid lows of -173°C (-280°F).

Future missions to explore the moon will need reliable machines that can function under these harsh conditions. This led a team from Nagoya University in Japan to invent a heat-switch device that promises to extend the operational lifespan of lunar-roving vehicles. Their study, conducted in collaboration with the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, was published in the journal Applied Thermal Engineering.

"Heat-switch technology that can switch between daytime heat dissipation and nighttime insulation is essential for long-term lunar exploration," said lead researcher Masahito Nishikawara. "During the day, the lunar rover is active, and the electronic equipment generates heat. Since there is no air in space, the heat generated by the electronics must be actively cooled and dissipated. On the other hand, during extremely cold nights, electronics must be insulated from the outside environment so that they don't get too cold."

Current devices tend to rely on heaters or passive valves attached to loop heat pipes for nighttime insulation. However, heaters are costly, and passive valves can increase the velocity of fluid flow, leading to a drop in pressure that can affect the efficiency of heat transfer.

The technology developed by Nishikawara's team offers a middle ground. With a lower pressure drop than passive valves and lower power consumption than heaters, it retains heat at night without compromising daytime cooling performance.

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#26 2021-09-03 06:56:59

Re: Thermal heat storage

#27 2021-09-03 07:58:27

Re: Thermal heat storage

#28 2021-09-03 18:02:35

Re: Thermal heat storage

#29 2021-09-03 18:37:50

Re: Thermal heat storage

#30 2021-09-03 18:51:48

Re: Thermal heat storage

#31 2021-09-03 19:12:49

Re: Thermal heat storage

#32 2021-12-04 12:44:02

Re: Thermal heat storage

#33 2021-12-29 12:15:51

Re: Thermal heat storage

#34 2022-01-16 11:00:09

Re: Thermal heat storage

#35 2022-01-16 11:17:44

Re: Thermal heat storage

#36 2022-01-16 11:43:25

Re: Thermal heat storage

#37 2022-01-16 11:53:35

Re: Thermal heat storage

#38 2022-09-10 16:14:12

Re: Thermal heat storage

#39 2022-11-17 11:27:50

Re: Thermal heat storage

#40 2022-11-17 22:09:05

Re: Thermal heat storage

#41 2022-12-04 11:02:56

Re: Thermal heat storage

#42 2022-12-04 11:49:49

Re: Thermal heat storage

#43 2024-06-07 07:25:00

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