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#826 2021-08-30 06:41:38

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Got a basic ring to render. Yea, I know, it doesn't look like much. Habitation ring, one deck high, doesn't have the greenhouse or spokes, etc.
DiS8O4M.png

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#827 2021-08-30 07:48:29

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #826

It is entirely likely I am the only member of the forum who has a clue what you've achieved!

Bravo! 

You may recall that far back in this topic, there is a gif of a rotating image of a Large Ship.  That can be a guide to help you plan automation of your images.

The idea is to set the starting position and end position, and let Blender interpolate between the two.

Update at 15:40 local time ...

Heard back from FriendOfQuark1...

How are we set for remote speakers for future meetings?  Tom has a potential speaker or short presentation from the New Mars Society forum on an on going thread where the forum participants are designing a large spaceship to support Mars colonization.  The work has been going on for many months and they have quite a lot of material to share.

Don't worry about that "lot of material" reference .... I'm not looking for more than a few minutes overview, at most, as a way for you to test your presentation before the real thing in mid-October.

(th)

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#828 2021-08-31 12:40:18

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck .... re topic but focused upon construction work facility ...

Please tuck (somewhere) in the back of your mind that your first paying customer might be a US corporation wanting to put a telepresence work crew into orbit around Mars in order to build a landing pad for SpaceX (and other customers).

As you add features to your design, the basic frame would seem optimum (G force, rate of rotation and atmosphere mix) but the mission would be to deliver the work crew to the job site (in orbit) safely and in modest comfort.

(th)

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#829 2021-08-31 15:36:17

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Hmm. Telepresence from Mars orbit. Many in the Mars Society have argued against that, including me. Surface of Mars is far safer than Mars orbit. Dangers are micrometoroids, zero gravity, and radiation. The Large Ship solves those problems, so I guess that changes everything. But still, wouldn't it be better to land humans on the surface of Mars?

If Starship can't land until a hard landing pad is built, then send a smaller vehicle. Mars Direct was designed to land and house a 4-person crew, and designed to land on soft ground. There are modifications to accommodate more crew; MDRS has 6 tiny cabins, plus a loft for the facility caretaker. (During simulation, just pretend she isn't there. Don't mind the lady behind the curtain.) Robert Zubrin has said Starship could be used to launch Mars Direct, rather than sending that giant ship itself. Wikipedia entry for SpaceX Starship says it will have a lift capacity of 100-150t to LEO reusable, or 250t expendable. Mars Direct habitat was designed to be launched by the Ares launch vehicle, SLS block 2 basically *IS* Ares. Those launch vehicles were to have a lift capacity of 130t to LEO. So depending on what the cargo version of Starship ends up with, a single launch could deliver a Mars Direct hab with TMI stage. Starship would require 4 to 6 tankers to refuel before departing Earth orbit for Mars. Assume 4, then that means one with crew plus 4 tankers or 5 launches. Mars Direct habitat would take one. Starship would require refuelling on Mars surface to return, so something has to be sent ahead to do that. Say an unmanned Starship with automated equipment for ISPP. That would also take 4 to 6 tankers to refuel in LEO. Mars Direct would require one launch for the ERV. So Mars Direct 2 launches, Starship at least 10. Wouldn't a Mars Direct mission work better to prepare the site for Starship?

I'm expecting the Large Ship (shall we call it Tiu?) will take some time. Remember I don't have financing. At this point I'm a computer technician typing at a computer. I used to be a senior software developer, but lost my job when I tried to run for political office. If I start a company, I'll have to grow a profitable company first. When that becomes big, then use those profits to start a space company. And the Large Ship will be a very big project. I'm expecting SpaceX will land Starship before my Large Ship is ready. But that's Ok, because we'll need a Starship on Mars to shuttle passengers down from Mars orbit.

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#830 2021-08-31 16:46:10

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Learning how to create interiors with Blender. But here are a couple images that I posted before. Standard cabins for the Large Ship would be the same size as these.

The first image is a cabin on the Ruby Princess, a real-life cruise ship used by Australia in February 2020 for COVID quarantine. Both end walls are all mirror, giving an "infinite reflection" effect, making the room seem larger than it is.
24589476-7990019-image-a-2_1581400858776.jpg

The second is a cabin on Royal Caribbean Liberty of the Seas. Notice the end tables (night stands) are moved from the centre isle to the sides. These bunks are single beds, which are 30" x 75". Bunks on an American aircraft carrier are 30" x 72", so these are 3" longer. A queen size bed is 60" x 75", so two single beds pushed together form a queen. That's what this is: two bunks pushed together with sheets replaced with queen-size.
liberty-of-the-seas-royal-caribbean-79704.jpg

These are the smallest cabins on modern cruise ships, but they are standard cabins. Most cabins on the Large Ship would be the same size. With flexible furniture options. For example, replace all this furniture with a queen-size Murphy bed.

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#831 2021-08-31 17:40:42

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re topic and recent posts ...

Thanks for reminders of your vision, and good news of continued progress with Blender.

North Houston Chapter of National Space Society is interested in what you might be able to provide ... October 4th would have been good, but apparently they have a main speaker lined up.  If you want to do a little warmup of about five minutes we might be able to negotiate that.

FriendOfQuark1 is ** finally ** willing to accept a log in ... I'll be setting that up in the next day or so.

The opening bid is for November or December ... Both those would be ** after ** your presentation to Mars Society.

On the ** other ** hand, you would have a full presentation already given to the Mars Society, so the NHCNSS session would be a repeat.

One difference is you would have a friendly audience of a few dozen, instead of thousands for Mars Convention.

***
If a large corporation is interested in your concept, you would (of course) become a consultant.  The ITAR issues would seem less likely to be a problem, since the IP would flow out of Canada.  However, large corporations have staff devoted to handling such issues.

***
Regarding landing on Mars .... I'm not pitching this as some sort of exploration .... landing on Mars is the point of the exercise, but the landing site builder would NOT be taking that risk.

We've got a year to put something together.  Dr. Johnson's drill/probe would be the logical first step.  The Large Ship would head out two years after that, if the results from the probe are promising.

What I'd like you to do (if you can and I understand no guarantees) is to design a work environment that would be as safe as you can possibly make it, and spare no expense.  If your natural inclination is to pinch pennies (or whatever Canadians use) this is NOT the time to yield to that temptation.  This is a time to design for reliability and safety absolutely uppermost in mind.  Everything else will take care of itself.

Your basic design takes care of space(ie, volume)  needs by default.  I'm counting on that as a major selling point.

Update at 20:59 local time .... the President of the NSS chapter would be willing to open a 5 minute slot this coming Saturday (October 4th) It would be a chance to say hello, pop up a slide or two, prove out your Zoom connection, and take a question or two.

Take a look at any of the saved Zoom videos at NorthHoustonSpace.org to see what's involved.

(thj)

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#832 2021-08-31 20:24:49

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

855e57376ca58376575e33eba90a070f.jpg
You asked. Canadian coins. There is a 50¢ coin; I actually got one in change once... in my entire life. Don't expect to ever see it. Most Canadians aren't even aware it exists.

The penny was minted through 2012, but not any more. Now if you pay cash, prices are rounded to the nearest 5¢. If you pay with a debit card (most people do now) then prices are exact.

A penny used to be solid copper, a nickel was solid nickel (hence the name), dimes and quarters were solid sterling silver. However, rampant inflation has dropped the value of currency. To ensure the mint can sell coins for more than their metal value, these coins have been "debased" for decades. They progressively changed the alloy. In the end pennies were steel, electroplated with copper.

The Loonie was designed to look like gold, but never was. It was introduced in 1987, originally copper aluminum alloy. But since has been changed to bronze. The Toonie was introduced in 1996, the centre is the same metal as a Loonie. Coins are more durable than paper money, so don't have to be replaced as often. Torn or damaged paper currency is collected by banks, the mint replaces them with newly printed money. The mint burns that old damaged money. So one dollar bills were discontinued when the Loonie was introduced, and two dollar bills were discontinued with the Toonie.

By the way, the head of a Canadian coin is the currently reigning monarch. Queen Elizabeth has reigned since some time in the 1950s. Her image on money has been updated periodically. She was crowned when she was in her 20s, today she's 90-something.

So yea, we know what a penny is. Now they're collector items.

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#833 2021-08-31 21:12:29

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,331

Re: Large scale colonization ship

I got a good laugh at the last 2 coin names as I have seen all of the small one's here so close to Canada...Speaking of coins the local Walmart started doing the change rounding, so some will pay that extra dollar while others will save it.

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#834 2021-08-31 21:34:11

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

I remember when the mint announced they would replace the dollar bill with a coin. They held a design competition, the winner was a voyager paddling a canoe. They made dies to manufacture coins, and sent them to the mint in Winnipeg. Paper money is minted somewhere in Ottawa, but coins are minted in my city. They carefully traced where the dies went. But then discovered the dies had disappeared for 2 weeks. The dies did show up, but original dies to mint coins disappeared with no documentation where they were? The mint was worried someone copied them for counterfeit. So they changed the design to their second choice, a Loon. That's a type of bird. So people called the coins a Loonie. There was some debate what the two dollar coin should be called, the mint tried to moderate that and decide a winner. But in the end people ignored what the mint said, just called them Toonie. Two for two dollars, but also the government is "Looney Tunes" aka crazy. Yes, that was a cartoon by Warner Brothers.

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#835 2021-09-01 15:17:38

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck .... I apologize for pulling this topic off track with my speculation about Canadian coins...

That said, I must admit I read your several posts on the subject with great interest!

***
In a belated attempt to make up for lost time ...

1) you've been invited to help GW Johnson with his drill proposal.  Please see Housekeeping.

2) Calliban came up with an idea that ** I think ** is a natural for Large Ship.  Please take a look at On Orbit Fuel ...

(th)

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#836 2021-09-02 11:05:51

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck ... this is an experiment to see if an image of a spiral (made of brick on gravel) will show up...

https://depositphotos.com/301306808/sto … bbles.html

That didn't work for direct display, but the link to the image at depositphotos.com should work.

depositphotos_301306808-stock-photo-spiral-herb-garden-pebbles.jpg

What I am thinking about is design of a travel path for Starships that approach the Refueling Large Ship and need to reach the correct location to either accept fuel or to deliver it.

As I think about it, there could be separate tracks for customers and for tankers, and they could be brought together by sliding along the length of the Large Ship.  As mentioned before, and worth repeating .... momentum/mass has to be managed, so I would expect that shipments would arrive in pairs, and customers would arrive in pairs.

The flow of fuel and LOX would be at Mars gravity, so it should move along agreeably.

(th)

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#837 2021-09-02 13:39:57

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

To show an image you start with the URL (web address) of the image itself, not the web page containing it. When you post, prefix the URL with tag [ IMG ] but leave out spaces. I added spaces so you can see it. Add a close tag to the end of the URL, for an image it's [ /IMG ]. Again remove the spaces so it will process. Capital or lower case doesn't matter.

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#838 2021-09-02 14:39:39

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

I said passengers would transfer by Starship docking nose-to-nose with the zero-G hub of Large Ship. The soft capture ring would be de-spun for docking. Once soft captured, the ring would spin-up, spinning Starship along with it. Once spin is synchronized, the soft capture ring would align with the hard dock side of the docking adapter, then retract. It would retract and hooks and latches would provide a secure pressure-tight seal.

The reason for alignment is there are connectors through the docking ring. Both the Russian docking adapter and APAS, and now NDS, have electrical connections. When the soft capture ring retracts and provides a hard attachment, the electrical connectors plug in. Russian SSVP docking adapter also has fluid quick disconnects for fluid transfer: UDMH and N2O4 aka NTO, which is used to transfer propellant from Progress cargo ships to the Russian side of ISS. That propellant is used for station keeping.

I'm thinking a tanker could dock with the aft of the ship. The aft has the propulsion unit, built like a rocket. It has rocket engines and propellant tanks. The entire ship spins, and the Large Ship won't de-spin, so docking with the aft end requires the cargo ship to synchronize spin and dock while spinning. Tricky, but docking a tanker should be automated. No humans aboard the tanker. So docking must be axial, not side-by-side, because of that spin.

Propellant for the primary propulsion unit, the TMI propulsion unit, would be done at the aft end. Thrusters for mid-course correction would be on the cargo-hold portion of the zero-G hub, aligned with centre of mass after propellant is expended for TMI. RCS thrusters for controlling spin and orientation would be on the outside surface of the ring. I'm thinking the "nose" docking adapter could transfer water (for drinking / life support) as well as propellant for RCS thrusters.

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#839 2021-09-02 15:06:44

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck ...

The proposal to consider Large Ship as a Fuel Depot arises in the On Orbit Refueling topic.

The need there (per GW Johnson) is to provide artificial gravity to move cryogenic fuel and oxidizer from the supply tanker to the receiving vessel.

A way of producing artificial gravity (ullage) is by using thrusters. These might be chemical or ion designs.

Calliban suggested using the artificial gravity of rotation to achieve the desired effect.

I thought immediately of your proposed Mars gravity design.

A version of Large Ship designed to serve Elon Musk and the SpaceX team would be able to provide artificial gravity to move fuel and oxidizer between tanker and receiving vessel.

This has nothing to do with using Large Ship for transportation.  It has everything to do with helping SpaceX to achieve it's objective of refueling vessels in LEO to meet the terms of their contract with NASA to send an exploration vehicle to the Moon.

My initial analysis (broad brush as it must be) is that your design could be adapted to serve as a Fuel Depot.

However, the Large Ship design would necessarily receive some additional hardware for use in the Fuel Depot function.

Should you decide to consider the potential market opportunity for a fuel depot vehicle to serve SpaceX, you would be challenged with the mechanical engineering needed to dock tankers and receiving vessels, move them to locations near the rim where they can transfer cargo in side-by-side mode, and then release them to free orbit after the transfer.

(th)

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#840 2021-09-02 15:44:51

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Oh dear. I haven't yet read what you sent via email. We don't need artificial gravity to transfer propellant. I have said on a number of ocations that you can transfer propellant using a bladder. That is a bladder contains the propellant (fuel or oxidizer) and the rigid metal tank contains a pressurized gas between the tank wall and the bladder. Apollo CSM used this for RCS thrusters aka thruster quads. GW Johnson keeps claiming that no material exists that can withstand the cold of cryogenic propellants, but that's wrong. What he said is correct for liquid hydrogen, which is the coldest cryogenic liquid. However, that is not true for liquid methane or liquid oxygen. There are polymers (plastics) that can withstand temperatures of those soft cryogens. Yes, the polymer can be turned in a sharp bend. Don't believe me? Then try it. You can buy Teflon FEP film or Aclar film. PCTFE is sold commercially by Honeywell for aerospace or military applications under the brand name Clarus. It's sold as moisture barrier for blister packs for pills under the brand name Aclar. Clarus and Aclar are made by the same company, in the same factory, on the same machines! It's the same! The only real difference is Clarus can be customized while Aclar only comes in standard widths, thickness, and roll lengths. But you can do your test with Aclar.

The bladder ensures only liquid inside the bladder, so only liquid will squeeze out the propellant feed line. Between the bladder and tank wall is a gas of some sort to push it out. The lightest gas is helium, and helium won't liquefy under temperature of cryogenic liquid methane or oxygen. By the way, helium is not used to pressurize liquid hydrogen tanks, because the temperature of liquid hydrogen is cold enough to liquefy helium. Well, technically if liquid hydrogen is right at the boiling temperature, not chilled to densify, then helium won't liquefy. But... you get the point.

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#841 2021-09-05 04:40:46

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Let's imagine this ship is built. The ship is spun-up, engineering tests show it works. The ship travels to high Earth orbit outside the magnetosphere to test the mini-magnetosphere. The ship dives into Earth's atmosphere to aerobrake, using the same speed as aerocapture at Mars. Then travels into high Earth orbit and accelerates toward Earth, aerocapturing at the same speed as it would upon return from Mars. Aerocapture into Earth orbit will be faster because the ship will fall in the Sun's gravity for months, then Earth's gravity is greater than Mars. Say it all works. The next is to test the ship with a large number of passengers onboard. Offer the ship as an orbital hotel, so guests can use services onboard the ship. This will test life support at capacity, and test accommodations and services. I'm thinking the price will be US$3,000 per night plus ticket to get to the ship. That ticket price will cover a full standard cabin (one of the small ones), with however many guests you want. Ticket also includes meals at any buffet dining room, but booze is extra and any meal at the fine-dining restaurant is also extra. So how much will a ticket to Earth orbit cost? Assume it's the same as a SpaceX round-trip ticket Earth-to-Earth. So how much is that?

Interview with Gwynne Shotwell in May 2018. They spoke briefly about Starship Earth-to-Earth. Gwynne said Starship would initially carry 100 passengers, and ticket price would be "between economy and business".
YouTube, TED: SpaceX's plan to fly you across the globe in 30 minutes | Gwynne Shotwell
So let's look up cost of a business class ticket. Expedia.com (US so in US dollars), from London England (any airport) to Hong Kong. Depart Sept 19 (14 days from now), return the next day, one traveller, business class, round trip. Expedia
Cheapest $5,961. Carry-on bag included. First checked bag included. Cancellation fee $565.
Second choice $6,924. Carry-on bag included. 2 checked bags included. Cancellation not allowed.

Gwynne said the first trip would carry 100 passengers. Look at floor plans that a fan made based on exterior images of Starship and what Elon Musk said verbally. This shows one deck of just bags of water. There's a gym deck. And there's space for passenger to play in zero-G. If you use Starship as a commercial passenger ship Earth-to-Earth then with seats the same as a business class airliner it should carry 200 passengers.

If Large Ship were offered as a space hotel, would you go? How many nights? Note: Virgin Galactic currently charges US$450,000 per passenger for a suborbital flight.

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#842 2021-09-05 10:43:01

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck ....

Let's imagine you secure a design patent in both Canada and the United States, for the fundamental features of the Large Ship.

The cost is modest for a Design Patent, compared to the cost of a Patent for an invention or a novel chemical or biological process.

The distinct advantage is that with the Design Patent established, with ** your ** name on it, you can "license" designs for Large Ships that meet your criteria.

The problem I see with your current situation is that you are hidden away in a tiny part of the Internet, visited by five or six people who are not spammers.

Yet, because you have not secured your idea, you appear to me (and ** only ** me as far as I can tell) to be limiting yourself for fear of someone "stealing" your idea.  But you have published your ideas in a web site that is ** by definition ** free and open to anyone on Earth.

If you secure Design Patents, you can earn a modest income from periodicals such as Popular Science for publication of your ideas, based upon the Design Patents.

Some of your ideas may well stand up to scrutiny by others.  Some of your ideas most certainly will NOT stand up.  Either way, if you establish a base of IP in the form of Design Patents, you will be able to achieve visibility, and thus exposure to those who have funds to invest and might be interested in considering some of your ideas, and excluding others that don't meet their requirements.

(th)

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#843 2021-09-06 17:23:54

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For all who might be intrigued by the suggestion of RobertDyck to consider Unreal Engine to model parts of the Large Ship ...

August 19, 2021
Architecture
Automotive & Transportation
Broadcast & Live Events
Features
Film & Television
Games
In-Camera VFX
More Uses
Pixel Streaming
Training & Simulation
Unreal Engine 4.27
Virtual Production
XR
We’re excited to announce that Unreal Engine 4.27 is now available! This release offers something for everyone, from filmmakers and broadcasters, through visualization specialists in architecture, automotive, and product design, to game developers and beyond. Here are just some of the major highlights.

If anyone is interested in helping with Animation or just Drawing of components of Large Ship, please read Post #2 of Recruiting and contact the Portal.

At the moment Blender appears to be in development use, but Unreal Engine might still play a role.

(th)

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#844 2021-09-19 21:01:17

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Cargo
A Boeing 777-300 can carry 370 passengers with 3-class seat configuration, or 451 passengers with 2-class, or 550 with all economy class. It has 201.6m³ of cargo hold. Using 2-class seat configuration, that's 0.447m³ per passenger. Our large ship is expected to carry 1,000 passengers, so 447m³ cargo hold? Add to that food, spare parts for maintenance, and extra furniture to reconfigure cabins. How big will the cargo hold be? I'm thinking 8.4m diameter, same as Space Shuttle external tank, and same as SLS core stage. Zero-G hub would have same diameter as cargo hold. Skylab had 6.6m diameter, living space was the LH2 tank of an S-IVB stage. The LOX tank was configured as combination garbage dumpster and septic tank. With a zero-G hub that size, it gives a very large pressurized space to play.

Should elevators protrude into the zero-G hub? Or should elevator shaft ceiling be the side of the zero-G hub, with an atrium in front of the elevator door? Such atrium would be about the size of an elevator car, with no ceiling, just open into the zero-G hub. Centrifugal force on the side of the zero-G hub, rotating at 3 RPM with the ship, and radius of 4.2m (half diameter) would be 0.0422696 G. Round off to 0.042 G. So 1kg mass would feel like 0.042kg or 42 gram. A man with weight 185 pounds = 84kg would feel like 7.8 pounds = 3.547kg. So you could "stick" to the walls, but easily jump off.

Or should it be 9m diameter? Same as a SpaceX Starship? Centrifugal force would be 0.0452889 G, round to 0.045 G. Hmm... there's a definite relationship between radius and acceleration.

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#845 2021-09-20 07:42:50

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

At the price of replacing your ID with mine, I'd like to applaud your return to work on Large Ship, after your latest adventure in the wilds of Canada.

The baggage compartment does not need to be at Mars G.  Why not just solve the entire problem by making your ship into a flat washer shape with the central shaft running through the center like a bold.  That way all the volume inside the vessel could be held at Mars Habitat pressure, and passengers would have all that much more room to enjoy.

***
I'm hoping you've been thinking about protecting your IP with at ** least ** a design patent.  I would assume (???) that Canada has protections similar to those of the US which would allow you to set your brand in place and then secure income by (a) publishing in paid magazines and (b) licensing your design for toy makers and eventually real ship builders.

The cost of a design patent is (I believe) substantially less than a full patent.

The fear of loss of IP is an albatross hanging around the creative part of your online presence.

(th)

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#846 2021-09-20 10:14:26

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Pressurize the entire inside of the ring? Two problems: this will increase mass, because air does have mass. And the end walls would be huge. But also, someone playing in zero-G to encounter the outside at Mars gravity with no transition? They would never be able to get back up. And that much volume would leave people stranded with nothing to hold onto. Notice that at 8.4m or 9m radius, there's already a tiny acceleration of the side wall. Enough to keep you on the side wall. You would have to push off.

Realize the scale of this... image of the ring in post #826 is one deck high, and width of the ring is 19m so wide enough for 4 cabins length-wise and 2 corridors. Yes, another deck for observation and greenhouses has to be added to the inside of that ring. But filling in the entire volume would be huge!

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#847 2021-09-20 10:23:20

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Yes, I do have some work. This morning got notice of another fly-in location, this Sunday will be even more remote: Shamattawa. Replace the cash drawer. I installed the last one in their new building. Tried to secure the cash drawer so it couldn't be stolen. Shelf of the fixture was not as secure as locations in the city, but did what I could. Sometimes I think these locations are like flying into a Mars community. Very isolated, the only way in is by air or ice road. There's a TV show about ice road truckers, and they do show trucks going to some of the communities I service. But Mars will be even more remote. Sending convenience store food by air, or mobile homes by ice road, will not be an option for Mars. I've tried to suggest they build greenhouses to grow food locally, but these northern communities have too much trouble with theft and vandalism. Shamattawa is about 200km from the nearest community, about the same distance from the coast of Hudson's Bay. Ice road is just frozen lakes, and dirt road through the forest. The dirt road is to wet to drive during summer. You have to admire drivers who operate an 18-wheel semi-truck (aka tractor/trailer) through that. Nearest paved road ends at Thompson. Yea, roughly 800km of ice road from Thompson to Shamattawa... I couldn't drive that. But Shamattawa is surrounded by forest, you'd think they would make great use of that. Locals do hunt moose, but I haven't heard of them making use of the forest otherwise. Heard of someone in Pauingassi setting up a small lumber mill, to cut trees to make finished lumber for construction. Another community in northwest Ontario did that too, but locals told me someone stole a part from the mill so they haven't been able to use it in years. The airport has a runway of crushed rock from a local quarry, turboprop aircraft don't require pavement. But that's just the airport. They seem to have difficulty being independent. Some communities work for a living, but not Shamattawa; they have a very large proportion of the population dependent on welfare. Sad.

They have a major drinking problem. Canadian law requires all aboriginal reservations must be dry, but locals make home-made booze anyway. Locals of another community told me about "bean juice". They flavour alcohol with baked beans. (shudder) I could teach them how to pick wild berries in the forest, and how to make good wine from berries. I have Valiant grapes in my back yard, make red wine every year. That variety will grow in most Manitoba northern communities. And home distilling is now legal in Manitoba, so I've been experimenting with home-made honey liqueur and white rum. Made spiced run once, but didn't get the spice mixture right. The stuff I've made is pretty good. But teaching people in reservations how to make good booze would get me in a lot of trouble.

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#848 2021-09-20 10:44:46

NewMarsMember
Member
Registered: 2019-02-17
Posts: 640

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re topic...

Are you nickel/diming yourself again?

You're already building a vessel that is huge even by Earth standards.  Why are worried about the mass it would take to turn your original torus into a ** real ** ship that ** looks ** like a ship and transports humans in safety and comfort.

Can you think of ways for humans to navigate in a space the size of your vehicle?

With 1000 people on board, is there any chance whatsoever that any person could be out of range of assistance at any moment?

I'm confident that even average humans can figure out how to navigate in a rotating space if you give them 30 minutes to get their space legs.

Why don't you put some numbers up?

What mass is your original torus?

What mass is the full scale washer shaped vessel with ** real ** accommodations for 1000 passengers and 60 crew.

Do that and you have room for all the dining rooms, recreation facilities, laundry rooms and whatever else you need to outfit a real ship.

While you're at it, figure out how to store enough fuel and oxidizer when you leave Earth so that you don't have to sacrifice the entire ship by coming anywhere near the atmosphere of Mars.

No one is going to give you a nickel (let alone a dime) if they discover you are planning to save a few coins by skimping on deceleration fuel.

(th)


Recruiting High Value members for NewMars.com/forums, in association with the Mars Society

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#849 2021-09-20 11:10:07

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

I'm not nickel/diming myself. The habitation ring will have radius 37.6992m to the floor. Subtract ceiling height of 2 decks, the habitation ring will have 2.43m (8 foot) ceiling, the observation deck will have transparent ceiling and walls, giving the illusion you're in space. You can see the ship above you since you're on the inside of the rotating ring. You want to cover that and obstruct views? Part of that second deck with be greenhouses to grow fresh vegetables. That will require mirrors to reflect sunlight down into the greenhouse. Covering that for a giant zero-G play area would not be appropriate. Even with 3 metre ceiling for observation/greenhouse deck, the inside of that would be 37.6992 - 2.43 - 3 = 32.2692 metres. Subtract a bit more for floor/ceiling thickness, we're talking 64 metre diameter. Someone floating in zero-g diving toward the outer wall would find that wall dangerous. That "wall" is the floor for artificial gravity, whizzing by at 10 metres per second. That's 36.1 km/hour, roughly 22.5 mph! Calling that unsafe is an understatement.

A separate 9 metre diameter zero-g hub is for safety.

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#850 2021-09-20 11:27:29

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck .... Quick break for a word from our sponsor ...

I was struck by the thought you may no longer be using the email address you have on file with NewMars.

That would explain your total silence after many requests and even specific detailed requests from Dr. Johnson

If that is the case, and if you still have access to that email address, please try to catch up quickly.

Alternatively, please provide another email address and I will send copies of all the files and correspondence you may not have seen.

***
Regarding the washer shape .... The entire Sun Facing side of the ship can be a green house.  There is no need to use mirrors.  Just mount the entire greenhouse on the sun facing side of the Large Ship, and set the plants where they do best in the rotational gravity.

Let's put this show on the road.

If you need funds to pay for IP protection, so you can proceed without being worried about IP theft, find out how much is needed and let us know.  There are a great number of ways to raise funds, including the simple expedient of forming a private corporation and issuing shares to investors.

The gent who just paid for a joy ride on a Dragon could pay your salary at $100,000 for ten years without blinking.

Let's start taking specific steps to turn this vision into something that is on it's way to reality.

(th)

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