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#801 2021-08-21 18:19:14

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Science Direct: Microbial Oil - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics
This is a collection of several articles. The web page can be downloaded as a PDF. Each article is shown in full, but can be viewed separately. Of course there's a button to purchase the book containing the article. But viewing this overview with full text of the articles is free.

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#802 2021-08-21 19:56:27

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #801

Thanks for a substantial contribution to Large Ship.

SearchTerm:Oil cultivation of microbes to create for food purposes

Your interest in food seems to dominate other aspects of the Large Ship project.

I seems to me that seeking funding for a Mars Gravity rotating greenhouse in LEO would have better prospects than a vessel to go to Mars, but if you sculpt the design adroitly, you can insure you have the structure in place upon which to build to create the long term vision.

***
Have you set up a data repository yet?  If you have, and have reported your success, I've missed it.

GW Johnson recently inquired about a Mars Society repository for his ExRocketman articles.  A well designed repository would be easier to find articles than is the case right now, with the Wordpress date filing system GW is using now.

***
Edit next day: For RobertDyck .... please consider setting up a Greenhouse Demonstrator in LEO project

It should appeal to Universities around the globe, to sign up for the cost of one module of the many that can be fitted in your Large Ship form factor.

It should be possible to enlist existing members of the forum to assist with email writing to Universities once you've created an outline of what you'd like to do with the concept.

A simple way to provide module shells would be to make them just a bit larger than Starship, and deliver them to orbit as sleeves around a Starship tanker on it's way to refuel for a deep space mission.  Elon Musk appears to be working hard on humanoid robots.  If he is serious about this the option of building your vessel using on-Earth remote teleoperation becomes increasingly feasible.

(th)

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#803 2021-08-22 14:02:45

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

The biggest construction job will be welding in space. That doesn't require humanoid robots, it can be done with specialty robots.

Installation of large curved section windows into the greenhouse or observation deck can be done with "worker bee" robots. They would need end effectors (hands) that can hold the window sections, move them into place, while the worker bee can "fly" in space to the required location. And the worker bees will hold the part in place while another applies fasteners to secure it. For example, the windows of ISS cupola have a rubber seal around the edges, and held in place with a steel bezel that's held with machine screws. The ship will be made of austenitic stainless steel, which is not magnetic. Technically, 300 series stainless is slightly magnetic, but it's "negligibly responsive to magnetic fields". So a construction robot cannot use an electromagnet, it will require "handholds" designed for the robot. ISS has posts with a knob on the end for the arm to attach. The post also provides electrical connection for both power an communication. But construction "worker bees" could use onboard power and radio communication, making them more flexible.

NASA's Manned Maneuvering Unit (MMU) and Simplified Aid For EVA Rescue (SAFER) both used compressed nitrogen for cold gas thrusters. Robot worker bees could use hot gas thrusters using methane/LOX. Exhaust would be steam, CO2, and uncombusted O2. That's safe. Stainless steel an ALON windows can withstand the temperature of hot exhaust. Or should we research propane/LOX thrusters? Propane will liquefy at moderate pressure at room temperature. Or supercritical pressurized O2? Meyer manufactures a Carbon Overwrapped Pressure Vessel with working pressure of 500 bar. Thermodynamics reduces temperature when pressure is released; would supercritical oxygen liquefy when released into a rocket engine? Would it be Propane/LOX or Propane/O2?

::Edit:: Nope. This would be pressure-fed thruster. And we don't need a bladder or ullage engine, because the tanks hold pressurized gas. Propane liquefies at moderate pressure, so you want to ensure only gas leaves the tank into the fuel feed line. A porous plug ensures only gas gets through. Supercritical oxygen is stored at much higher pressure, but a pressure regulator ensures consistent lower pressure feeds into the thruster engine.

Hmm. 11D428A-16 is the RCS thruster for Soyuz TMA spacecraft. It has a nominal inlet pressure of 1.76 MPa (17.58 bar, 255 psi). If supercritical oxygen has a storage pressure of 500 bar (7,251.887 psi) then that's not a problem. Even as the tank is depleted and pressure drops, it'll still be higher than engine inlet pressure so a pressure regulator can convert down. But propane is stored at 1.220 MPa (12.2 bar, 177 psi) to keep it liquid at 37.8°C (100°F). Would propane require a helium pressure system? That would feed liquid propane into the engine, not gas.

Or just use methane? Critical point is 190.56°K (-82.59°C) @ 4.5992 MPa (45.992 bar, 667.0576 psi). Requires COPV for both tanks, but eliminates need for a pressurant system. Methane would also be stored supercritical, requiring a pressure regulator to feed the thruster engine.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2021-08-22 22:19:56)

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#804 2021-08-22 14:25:03

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Greenhouse testing would first be done on Earth. A sealed greenhouse, with reduced pressure to the working pressure of the ship. Operate an integrated system with chloroplast bags for oxygen generation, aquaponics, urine processing, and all the fancy life support stuff I post about here. Prove it works on Earth before going to space.

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#805 2021-08-23 23:27:10

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Well, I was hoping for some feed-back regarding worker bee robots. The question was whether to use methane or propane for bipropellant for RCS thrusters. Looking at Engineering ToolBox Methane - Density and Specific Weight, the density of supercritical methane at 26.9°C (300°K) and 100 bar pressure is 75.17 g/l (kg/m³). At 1000 bar pressure it's 341.1 75.17 g/l (kg/m³). If a full tank starts at 500 bar pressure and drops as propellant is consumed, it'll be something between those two. Liquid propane has a density of 493 kg/m³, and tank pressure must be increased to thruster inlet pressure. If that's 17.58 bar, we have a far safer, smaller, and lighter tank. So even if we have to use supercritical oxygen, it still sounds as if propane is the better choice.

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#806 2021-08-24 06:28:52

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck ... The limited nature of FluxBB means that any feedback in your primary topic means replacing your ID.

it is the presence of ** your ** ID that makes a topic interesting.

We have introduced the concept of the Companion topic for OF1939's development of a vision for a 17 person expedition to Mars.

Would you be willing to at least consider a companion for Large Ship ???

***
Regarding worker bee robots ... I am ** really ** happy to see you taking up this subtopic, because (in my opinion) it is a nod to the reality of approaching technical capability (on one hand) and the difficulty of deploying and sustaining a human worker on the other.

***
Regarding a test greenhouse on Earth .... there may be a value in that.

It is possible you remember the posts earlier in the forum, where the research was done with precisely that idea in mind.

My recollection is that the researchers published the results of their work, and those results are available for anyone to study.

I am mystified why it would be necessary to repeat that work.  Perhaps there is something your proposed experimental greenhouse on Earth would reveal that is not already known.

I would recommend reviewing the completed work and then moving full force to establish a full scale Large Ship sized greenhouse on orbit.

***
Regarding propulsion for worker bee robots .... Thanks for starting the thought process that will (hopefully) lead to a solution that will show up in the near future.  The subject is definitely in the critical path!   

If there is a reader of this forum, not already a member, who would like to contribute to this part of the Large Ship vision, please read Post #2 of Recruiting.  RobertDyck is going to need a large work force right here on Earth to bring his sketches and text to life as a vessel in LEO.

(th)

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#807 2021-08-24 13:11:19

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

No, I don't believe in splitting a discussion into two topics. The discussion is here. Split in two means it's not clear what you're responding to. And it'll be harder to find because it's two.

I'm not sure what you mean by replacing my ID. Are you saying what I post is interesting? That's flattering.

I briefly mentioned construction robots before. The name "worker bee" is taken from Star Trek. They were introduced for the first movie (Star Trek: The Motion Picture), and technical manuals for Star Trek TNG included them in the ship's complement of auxiliary craft. However, Star Trek envisions a small manned vehicle. I'm suggesting a remotely operated robot. Star Trek Discovery included autonomous worker robots, but they were roughly humanoid and all CGI, no telling what their propulsion system was supposed to be. I'm thinking of a functional construction robot.

For a while now I've been thinking of propane/oxygen for RCS thrusters. Haven't posted about it before.

---
Greenhouse on Earth: Biosphere 2 was an attempt to replicate several Earth biomes. That is not at all what I'm suggesting. My life support system is based on chloroplast bags for oxygen generation. Plus aquaponics for salad and fresh vegetables, and fish. Vacuum desiccating toilet for solid human waste. Process moisture recovered from feces, recycle water. Organic material extracted from moisture recovered from feces would fertilize the hydroponics. Urine collection tube. Urine processor, with multi-step sophisticated urine processing, various products for life support produced from materials extracted from urine. What's left of the urine will also fertilize hydroponics. Several microbial vats to grow various products. This is nothing like Biosphere 2, and nothing like the greenhouse at MDRS. It needs to be tested before we fly in space.

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#808 2021-08-24 13:35:29

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #807

Your response indicates to me you are unsympathetic to the dilemma of a person considering a response in your topic.

It is ** your ** ID that (I'm sure) most readers would want to read, to see your latest update.

By failing to provide a place for others to comment, you are depriving yourself of responses from anyone who does NOT want to replace your ID with theirs.

The idea that you can't handle TWO topics dedicated to your most important contribution to the forum seems "surprising" (to me at least) but I have to take your word for it.

***
GW Johnson has requested information about the CanaDrill! Can you help with that?

***
This next question is coming from a place of genuinely NOT knowing ....

Is there a reason your on-orbit construction cannot be carried out with magnetic blends of iron and other elements?

Your vessel is NOT intended to land anywhere (to the best of my knowledge) so stainless steel would seem unnecessary.  There might be some erosion in low Earth orbit, but materials can be spray painted with covering to deal with that if it is a problem.  The reason I ask (of course) is that simple selection of magnetic material would facilitate navigation by on-orbit robots, ** and ** it would (presumably) facilitate a magnetic field for radiation protection, if you were to engage the services of someone trained in that part of engineering/physics.

***
Re greenhouse .... For RobertDyck .... this proposal is NOT about you! It is about those who want to fund a greenhouse in space.

If you can somehow persuade a funder (individual or consortium) to accept your leadership to provide a Mars equivalent gravity and atmosphere for their project, why are you imposing your desires upon them?

Once you have a working vehicle in LEO, you have a track record to use to request funds for your next venture, which might be another iteration of the basic idea that meets the needs of your next client.  At some point, you would (if all goes well) have enough experience and resources to build your dream ship.

The opportunity to find a funder for a ** real ** greenhouse in LEO is right now, while you have the field (almost) to yourself.

The proposal for an on-orbit rotating facility is for a fancy hotel.  That is not what I understand your concept to be, although I admit you sometimes hint at hotelier ambitions.

(th)

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#809 2021-08-24 14:28:40

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

People can comment here.

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#810 2021-08-24 15:08:41

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

How would a magnetic hull interact with the magnetic field of a mini-magnetosphere? Washington State University did work on Mini-Magnetosphere for radiation protection. When beyond Earth's magnosphere, this would add much needed protection.

I'm thinking an austenite alloy of iron does not harden when heat treated. That means it can be welded without annealing. It can also withstand heat of aerocapture without hardening/embrittlement. Yes, there's mono-atomic oxygen in Low Earth Orbit. One consideration for spacesuit design is to not corrode when exposed to that mono-atomic oxygen. The A7L suit used for Apollo used beta-fabric for it's outer later. That was fibreglass coated in Teflon. The Teflon was for oxygen resistance. Modern EMU spacesuits use Orthofabric, which is a double-layer with Gore-Tex outer layer and Nomex backing, with 2 threads every 3/8" replaced by Kevlar in both the warp and weave directions. The Gore-Tex used for Orthofabric is fibres of PTFE, essentially the same polymer as Teflon but made by a different manufacturer. So yea, corrosion is a consideration.

I said 300 series stainless steel for two reasons: SpaceX is using 300 series stainless for Starship, and the Leonardo module for ISS is made of stainless steel. American built modules are aluminum alloy, but the Leonardo module is Italian built, and it's stainless steel.

Steel can withstand more stress/use before accumulating dangerous metal fatigue than aluminum alloy. So a steel ship is more durable, longer life.

Building a ship this big in space requires harvesting materials in space. Metal Near Earth Asteroids (NEAs) are mostly iron with significant nickel. The iron an nickel can be harvested/purified with the Mond process, which operates under such moderate heat that it can be achieved with a parabolic mirror to focus sunlight. The Mond process is used on Earth today to refine nickel. So this can be harvested relatively easily.

---
Decades ago the president of Hilton Hotels said if launch cost could drop below a certain price per pound then he would build a hotel in Earth orbit. SpaceX Starship would drop launch cost below that. So many decades have passed that I'm sure he isn't president of Hilton Hotels anymore. Ballard wants to be the supplier to build such a hotel in space, although Ballard's vision is zero-G using TransHAB. Would a hotelier want me to build a hotel for them? Using technology for the Large Ship, but just not intended to move? Cabins would be larger. I envision the Large Ship as a passenger transport, not a luxury cruise ship. Cabins are large and luxurious compared to Apollo or even SpaceX Starship, and certainly larger than first class on a trans-oceanic airliner. But not as large as a luxury cruise ship. But a hotel in Earth orbit would have larger cabins and more entertainment space. If someone wants to pay me to build such a hotel, I'll certainly take their money. If customers want to visit the Large Ship as a hotel while parked in Earth orbit waiting for the next launch opportunity, then fine. But that's just extra revenue while waiting for the planets to align for the next trip.

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#811 2021-08-24 19:36:09

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

One complication is this may not be the best venue. We have been discussing details of space engineering since the Mars Society was founded. The founding convention was in August 1998, I've participated in this forum and it's predecessor since 1999. But several of my ideas have already been stolen by Lockheed-Martin. This is an opportunity to get ideas "out there", and discuss/refine ideas with others who are familiar with the subject. But once you get into high finance, there are sharks who want to eat you.

So perhaps we need to focus. One idea Lockheed-Martin will not be interested in, and I've already discussed: the chloroplast oxygen generator. I accumulated some equipment but it needs work. The most critical part is genetically engineering a plant. That's *WAY* outside my skill set. But I've talked to biologists, they can't understand the engineering or big picture. In the Mars Society we're been spoiled, three founding members have a Ph.D. in biology and exposed to engineering. But any biologists outside TMS, even those involved with space, haven't got a clue outside their specialty. So this project needs me to lead it. But I need plant geneticists to help.

One application: the pea plant produced will probably have increased yeald due to reduced photorespiration. Could we convince a company that produces pea starch to fund this? They would hold the rights to the plant for production of pea crops or peas starch on Earth, I would hold the rights for use in space, including oxygen generation. Of course I don't have the biology credentials, just an ambitious idea. How do we find a partner?

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#812 2021-08-24 19:55:05

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,331

Re: Large scale colonization ship

one needs to look at the misspelled words for copy right infringement....
a good example is beyound for beyond
create other hidden aspects that can not seen until you filter it for shape or word pattern.

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#813 2021-08-26 06:46:21

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re topic

Your work deserves support.

The methods we (forum members and interested non-members) have attempted to promote your vision are not working.

I would like to propose a set of actions we (collectively) can take to help you as an individual, and your ideas, as a meme.

As an opening offer, I would like to propose a new topic: Large Ship Specifications and Best Practices

To the extent you have published your ideas in an open setting, accessible to all 8 billion people (more or less) on the planet, I am assuming you are in a agreement with the principles of Open Source development.

You are the Lead Architect, and certain aspects of the design are fixed.

Other aspects of the design are in development, and may change or even disappear as you gain insight or perspective.

The option of saving critical data about the RobertDyck Mars Class of Rotary Ships on the Mars Society web site is apparently not available.

That would have been the best solution, and it is a shame it didn't work out.

However, we (human population of Earth) cannot be deterred from seeing the development of your design due to problems with a web server.

I'll leave this post in place for a day or two before moving ahead with the concept.

(th)

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#814 2021-08-26 13:44:24

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Thank you for your encouragement. However, I still have to ask you not to split this discussion into two threads. Others can post here just as I can. Yes, this discussion has become long. However, splitting it will just make it harder for people to find and follow the conversation.

The principles of Open Source development sound nice. Academia has published papers and information in public for a long time. The problem is business doesn't work that way. I seriously would like to establish a company and build this ship. Gaining backers will be necessary. Financing will be necessary. But there are predatory individuals in corporations that prey upon others.

Let me give a few specific examples:

In 2005 NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe believed that NASA needed ideas from individuals who are not part of the traditional aerospace industry supplying NASA. He expected ideas would come from knowledgeable individuals who had skill, but not necessarily aerospace engineers. He ordered NASA employees to organize a conference in Washington DC. This was open to the public. I gave a couple presentations. For the life support track, I was chosen as the first presenter. NASA asked everyone presenting to prepare a PowerPoint presentation and bring it on a USB memory stick. The presentation would be copied onto a NASA laptop connected to a data projector for the presentation. And of course that meant NASA kept all presentations. And there was a camera recording. I thought this meant my presentation would be recorded with documentation that it was my idea, so no corporation could steal my idea. But there was an employee of Lockheed-Martin at the back taking notes. My presentation was a replacement battery for EMU, the white spacesuit used on the International Space Station. They were using silver-nickel batteries which were rechargeable, but could only be used for 11 EVAs. I found a paper NASA's technical report server on development of that battery; the author had considered lithium-ion batteries but the only batteries available at that time were AA cell. The author felt it wasn't practical to assemble a large number of AA cell batteries for a spacesuit battery module. So I did some research, found a couple battery manufacturers who made larger lithium-ion batteries intended for electric cars. This is when Tesla was just starting. The lithium-ion battery cells were large, just 6 cells connected in series would provide the same voltage as the current battery, and they had the same capacity in amp-hours. A module would have the same size and mass, so a direct replacement. I gave details for the module: charge circuit, pressure containment, fire and acid protection. I even included suppliers. I did not mention the names of the suppliers, but it was in notes of the PowerPoint presentation. I said the French company had a battery with 1,500 charge/discharge cycle life, so that means 1,500 EVAs instead of 11. The German company made a batter with 500 charge/discharge cycle life, but was more durable vs temperature fluctuations. The French one was sensitive to temperature, and anything in space will experience temperature changes. The big advantage to this battery is the life would be greater than the expected life of the Space Station, so they wouldn't have to keep shipping up replacement batteries. I didn't hear anything, and yes did subscribe to NASA's email list for contractors. The next thing I heard is Lockheed-Martin was give a sole-source contract to produce a lithium-ion battery for the spacesuit. When I checked Lockheed-Martin's website, they had bought the American subsidiary of the German battery manufacturer. So how can I compete with a multi-billion-dollar corporation that can simply buy my supplier? And how did they get the name of that company? NASA must have given them a copy of my PowerPoint.

Then there's the Shuttle Unit Revalidation Equipment (SURE). I bid on this contract. It was replacement of a computer used as a diagnostic workstation for communication equipment on Space Shuttle Orbiters. My university education is computer science, not aerospace engineering, so this was perfect for me! Furthermore, the specific computer to be replaced is one for which I have certification as an expert. I have worked on 1989 vintage VAX computers, and have certification from the manufacturer (Digital Equipment Corporation) for VMS System Performance Management for VMS version 5.0, certification date September 1989. They won't find anyone as qualified as me. The announcement of opportunity was 2005. But I know this computer was not completely discontinued; the Alpha was a line of computers that were direct replacement for the VAX. NASA's statement expected the solution was an emulator that would run on a current model computer, but would emulate a 1989 vintage VAX running the VMS version 5.0 operating system. My proposal was to replace the VAX with an Alpha. I asked if source code was available, and the answer was yes. So my proposal was to apply updates to VMS version 8.2, which was current at that time. The bidding process was in 2005, work would have been in 2006, so this meant applying 17 years of operating system updates in one shot. That would impact the application software, but I'm a computer programmer, that's what I do. And I found which computer languages were used for this software, and yes I do have experience with all of them. However, United Space Alliance (acronym USA) had the primary contract to maintain the Space Shuttle Orbiter; they were asked to administer this contract. United Space Alliance was a 50:50 joint venture of Lockheed-Martin and Boeing, and subsidiaries of both Lockheed-Martin and Boeing were allowed to bid on the contract. I was selected for the short-list of this contract, but the manager at USA had no intention to let me win. To start with, they required a pre-bidders conference. That's normal for NASA, so great! The conference would be in the Orbiter Processing Building at KSC. Damn yea! I would love to have attended that! But small print in the middle of a stack of paperwork a foot high said that anyone who is not a citizen or permanent resident of the United States is required to submit a security clearance form. I have worked in the United States before; when I worked for Miami-Dade County maintaining computer software for one county tax, I had security clearance from the FBI. However, the small print said the deadline for them to receive the security clearance application was before this paperwork left USA offices. So the only way I could submit said paperwork on time was with a time machine. I called the contact line for United Space Alliance, the manager said he had no intention of allowing a non-American to win the contract. The only reason he allowed me on the short-list was to get my ideas. BTW, NASA said this contract was open to for-profit foreign corporations, so according to NASA I did qualify. But the manager at USA didn't want to. I called NASA to complain. They got me in contact with a Canadian crown corporation (that's a government owned corporation) that exists solely for the purpose of helping Canadian companies land contracts in the American military and aerospace industry. That company was willing to help, but the manager at United Space Alliance was adamant, he said he was not willing to work with a non-American. I know someone who is an American citizen and lives in Florida, he was willing to attend the pre-bidders conference as my representative, but the manager at USA still would not allow it. So I was screwed.

By the way, obtaining detailed technical information for the SURE contract bid require me to get ITAR clearance. I did get the Canadian equivalent to ITAR, then used that to get American ITAR. Did that.

So the problem now is how to we develop this without some multi-billion-dollar corporation stealing our work?

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#815 2021-08-26 13:55:22

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

By the way, I do have access to the local chapter website on the Mars Society server. The issue is only I have the password to upload files. The webmaster for the Mars Society Canada does as well, as does the Mars Society webmaster. But it isn't open to the public. How to set up something that allows other team members to post? I don't know. I can setup FlexBB, and have setup a FlexBB forum for something not related to the Mars Society, but what would be the point in that?

I am starting to learn Blender. I have created a ring with dimensions for the habitation ring of this ship. Haven't added spokes, hub, or propulsion yet. Interesting that proportions are not exactly as shown in various Sci-Fi movies or TV shows.

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#816 2021-08-28 02:22:59

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Visualizing a small spacecraft docking with the Large Ship. Trying to dock while synchronizing rotation may be asking too much. Besides, the docking mechanism has a soft capture, then retracts to hard dock. That means the space station side, or in this case the Large Ship, has a metal docking ring held out by shock absorbers. The ring has spring loaded latches that catch the docking ship. Then the ring retracts and latches hard to ship side, and forms an air-tight seal. So we could have the docking ring rotate to counter spin of the Large Ship. This would form a non-spinning target for a Dragon or Starliner or other ship to dock with. Then the ring would gently spin up to match the spin of the Large Ship. Once synchronized, the docking ring would align with the Large Ship latches for hard dock. Then it would retract, establish hard dock.

Here's a gif of the NASA docking system. Top is the ISS side, also known as the active androgynous variant. Bottom is the permanently passive variant used by Dragon or Starliner. This demonstrates soft capture.
300px-NDS_docking_tests.gif

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#817 2021-08-28 07:34:54

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #816

Congratulations on another nice addition to your vision for Large Ship.

I am encouraged to see your recent report of experiments with Blender.

Progress is slow, but if you maintain a steady pace, we (humans around the globe) may yet see a vessel with your name on it heading to Mars.

At a minimum, there should be a footnote in a Wikipedia entry about the vessel, pointing to your early vision in a tiny offshoot of the Mars Society.

(th)

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#818 2021-08-28 13:04:02

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Docking hatch would be larger, designed for Starship to dock it's nose. An arm would move over to dock an NDS adapter for Dragon or Starliner. The docking hatch opens to an airlock. The airlock opens to the zero-G hub. The zero-g hub is lined with pads, the same pads as high school gymnasium (gym wall padding). The hub is reception for arrivals, and during the trip it can be used for zero-G sports. Sidewalls of the hub are elevators that run down the spokes to the ring; one elevator shaft per spoke. Aft of the hub is the cargo hold. So cargo such as passenger cargo for Mars or food can be transported by Starship, moved through the hub to the cargo hold.

Elevator station in the hub will have a pressure tight door that opens into the hub. The elevator car will have it's own pressure tight door. But also a pressure tight hatch separating the station from the shaft in the spoke. That hatch opens after the elevator doors close to allow the elevator to descend. The station in the habitation ring will have a pressure tight hatch above the car, again sealing the station. The station at the observation deck / greenhouse deck will have pressure hatches both above and below. The hatch above the car on the habitation ring is the hatch below on the observation deck. Again this is for safety. A ship at sea has water tight compartments in case the hull is breached, the spacecraft will have pressure tight compartments. The elevator shaft will have a pressure tight station each location where the elevator stops. Primarily in case a meteor pierces the shaft. No meteor has ever pierced ISS, but just in case.

Elevators would have straps on the floor to hook your feet. And a handle on the wall to hold onto. The reason is as the elevator descends, you feel increasing acceleration. And feel the force of rotation more strongly.
images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTWWPaET-rA9wuXkILARgdx9UoxET2fHGCc78fa3anfFzRVjJGrFuC2Ufh_jIafdO_-M5g&usqp=CAU

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#819 2021-08-28 17:05:34

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,331

Re: Large scale colonization ship

I have yet to see any illustrations of docking at the nose for the starship and only the shipping dock port on the side.
It would seem that its a taxi to orbit thus far with no plans for the ISS where it needs something simular to shuttle for the side port use since its not docking with the nose.

The docking seems quite real RobertDyck in post #816 thanks for doing the animation....

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#820 2021-08-28 20:05:22

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

This proposal would use the SpaceX Starship as a taxi. The Large Ship would carry about 1,000 passengers at a time. Starship is designed to carry 100 passengers to Mars. Elon Musk said at one point that it could carry 200 passengers depending on how much space passengers require. One fan laid out floor plans, and based on that it could carry more than 100 passengers. SpaceX intends a version of Starship called Earth-to-Earth, meaning a suborbital hop. New York to Shanghai in 39 minutes, Los Angeles to Toronto 24 minutes, London to New York 29 minutes, New York to Paris 30 minutes, Los Angeles to New York 25 minutes, Los Angeles to Tokyo 32 minutes, most long distance trips less than 30 minutes, anywhere on Earth in under an hour. I expect that one will be configured with airline seats, about 200 passengers. A modification of that could be used as a taxi to the Large Ship.

Here's an image of the lunar version of Starship docked to the Lunar Gateway. This shows a nose docking port. Starship would have to dock to the Large Ship nose-to-nose due to rotation of the Large Ship.
yr0AwEaolVx5d8x5Xx53yQOGlKDP2BuSoKM5NmKf208.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=34bea177e00b088f1360b822ea267f758d2a76f5

Here's an image of Starship docked to Orion. In order to do this, on of the ships would require the active variant of the docking hatch. NDS is androgynous, based on APAS but for a lighter spacecraft, so active can dock with active, but passive cannot dock with passive. That's because the passive side does not have the ring with shock absorbers. Since Orion will have a passive docking adapter, as does Dragon, I expect Starship will have an active docking adapter.
Orion-and-lunar-Starship-fixed-NSF-1170x702.png

SpaceNut wrote:

The docking seems quite real RobertDyck in post #816 thanks for doing the animation....

That gif in post #816 is taken from Wikipedia. If you click the image it will take you to the Wikipedia page where I got it. I usually add URL tags to images to give credit for the image. That's not just a "quite real" animation, it's actual video of a test of the NASA docking system. It's a test on the ground, but the top part is the docking adapter to be installed on ISS. It's installed now. The bottom part is the docking hatch for Crew Dragon aka Dragon 2.

I expect the taxi version of Starship to have a larger docking hatch. At least as large as CBM so large equipment can pass, but with a shock absorber like APAS or NDS. I guess that means a new docking hatch.

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#821 2021-08-28 20:48:36

SpaceNut
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Those are nice art for sure but will they come to reality since lunar starship requires nothing from the gateway program to get there or land on the moon.

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#822 2021-08-29 14:14:57

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Deadline to submit an abstract for this year's virtual convention is August 31. That's a couple days. Abstract must be 100-300 words. What do you think of this? Microsoft Word counts it as 151 words including title.

Large Scale Colonization Ship

Proposal for a very large ship to carry settlers to Mars. This ship is designed to be built in Earth orbit, and travel from Earth orbit to Mars orbit and back. It will never land on any planet, so can be purpose built for space. This isn’t intended to replace SpaceX Starship, but to work with it. This started when someone sent a tweet to Elon Musk asking what’s next after Starship. Elon replied the next would be twice diameter and twice length. That’s 8 times volume! Starship is already the largest rocket ever launched from Earth, a rocket 8 times that size is neither reasonable nor safe. This ship is intended as alternative to that. Starship will be used for construction, fuel, and as a taxi to carry passengers from Earth surface to Earth orbit. Another Starship will carry passengers from Mars orbit to the surface.

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#823 2021-08-29 17:21:57

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re talk on Large Ship ....

The North Houston chapter of the National Space Society just sent me a note that their speaker for this Saturday may have had to cancel?

They would be a friendly audience!  Would you be interested in having me send in your abstract?

The abstract seems ok (to me at least) .... You can describe the features of your design in your talk, and then take questions.

The Zoom format used by NHCNSS allows for you to share your screen, so you can present a slide show if that is convenient, or just a simple text display with bullet points for your presentation.

You can see what meetings look like ... northhoustonspace.org has links to saved videos.

(th)

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#824 2021-08-29 19:23:15

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

You said their speaker "may" have had to cancel. Give him/her time. I don't want to bump anyone. Besides, it would be a scramble to prepare a PowerPoint. Mars Society virtual convention is October 14-17, my PowerPoint is ready yet. And I haven't mastered Blender yet. Have been able to create a ring for the habitation ring. Isn't rendering for some reason, only the viewport. Perhaps it needs a texture. So if I present this Saturday, it would have to be with my hand-drawn graphics.

So far have only 2 days work scheduled this week, 2 more next week. There are 3 remote fly-in jobs coming, but dates not fixed yet, probably not this week. Could get a dispatch on short notice, but not likely. So I'll work on it.

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#825 2021-08-29 20:41:03

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #824

Thanks for considering the offer .... We (NewMars) have a standing offer to make a presentation to NHCNSS .... I've been watching NewMars to see if anyone might be interested in speaking to a friendly audience ... Your inquiry about the Mars Convention looked like a possible match.  Whenever (if ever) you feel like running a live rehearsal, just let them know.  They meet every month on the first Saturday at 2 PM Houston time.  They've decided to stay Virtual for a while longer due to Delta variant. 

Good luck with those Customer Service calls!  And good luck with Blender!  Good to hear of your progress, even it it's just hitting snags/learning opportunities.

(th)

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