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#1 2020-04-07 21:42:51

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,913

Spain plans to embrace universal basic income to help alleviate pandem

Spain plans to embrace universal basic income to help alleviate pandemic economic crisis

Basic income, also called universal basic income (UBI), citizen's income, citizen's basic income, basic income guarantee, basic living stipend, guaranteed annual income, or universal demogrant, is a governmental public program for a periodic payment delivered to all on an individual basis without means test or work requirement.

Spain’s Economy Minister Nadia Calvino said the government is planning on bringing in a form of universal basic income (UBI) “as soon as possible”. Spain is moving to implement a permanent basic income as a measure to help workers and families battered by the coronavirus pandemic.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl … 49336.html

Its an equalizer in most cases

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

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#2 2020-04-08 11:42:44

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,087

Re: Spain plans to embrace universal basic income to help alleviate pandem

I've always been a supporter of UBI, or at least trialling it.

I think you need to link it to a period of work and it shouldn't be paid to people under 25.

UBI is well suited to a modern society. It cuts down on a let of welfare bureaucracy and it can be very conducive to people re-training midlife.  I would also tie it to a compulsory savings scheme. Make people save say 5% of their income which can then be accessed up to 50% of the accumulated annual sum in the next year. That would help poorer people be less dependent on payday loans and loan sharks.

SpaceNut wrote:

Spain plans to embrace universal basic income to help alleviate pandemic economic crisis

Basic income, also called universal basic income (UBI), citizen's income, citizen's basic income, basic income guarantee, basic living stipend, guaranteed annual income, or universal demogrant, is a governmental public program for a periodic payment delivered to all on an individual basis without means test or work requirement.

Spain’s Economy Minister Nadia Calvino said the government is planning on bringing in a form of universal basic income (UBI) “as soon as possible”. Spain is moving to implement a permanent basic income as a measure to help workers and families battered by the coronavirus pandemic.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl … 49336.html

Its an equalizer in most cases

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#3 2020-04-08 12:01:05

Terraformer
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From: Logres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,404
Website

Re: Spain plans to embrace universal basic income to help alleviate pandem

louis, the age of adulthood is 18... people shouldn't be made to be dependent on their parents until they're 25.

Any UBI should be tied to reform of the income tax system. Right now in the UK we have two income taxes, income tax and national insurance, that combined come to I think 12% on income over £7k/year, 32% over £12k/year, 42% over £40k/year... this is inaccurate and from memory, but the point is that it's far more complex than it needs to be. If we brought in a basic income of £6k/year though for adult citizens, we could scrap all that and have a flat 30-40% income tax. One tax, no bands, levied monthly or quarterly. At 40%, £15k a year would be the point at which someone would become a net taxpayer. It would be a negative income tax.

In my implementation, the UBI would replace all benefits except for the housing component (since it varies between different regions) and carers allowance. It would be the basic state pension for those over 65, £500/month for those 18-65, £250/month for 16-18, and £250/month for under-16s (paid to parents/guardians).

It's superior to other welfare systems, because it allows people the flexibility to use it as they see fit to improve their lot (this also makes it the most conservative way to implement a welfare system, since it relies on self responsibility). It gives workers flexibility to retrain, which also improves their bargaining power - we can expect wages to go up when workers can walk away (which also incentivises businesses to invest in automation, no bad thing). It would likely be pro-natal, giving parents the option of staying home and raising their children.

It probably also wouldn't cost that much more than the current welfare+pension system does, and would save a lot of money on the tax and welfare bureaucracy we have.


To secure a planet it is not necessary to colonise it in its entirety, only to secure the most valuable locations. The Lunar poles and Subterran point. Mercury's poles. The equatorial region of Ceres. Hold these, prevent access to their volatiles and anchor points for beanstalks, and independent colonies cease to be viable.

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#4 2020-04-08 16:43:13

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,913

Re: Spain plans to embrace universal basic income to help alleviate pandem

Some cities have experiments with stippens for the people in the study but its not gone any further.

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#5 2020-04-08 18:52:51

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,087

Re: Spain plans to embrace universal basic income to help alleviate pandem

People should have the right to work in my view. If they can't find gainful employment the state should create paid work - there's always useful work that can be done.  For younger people I think the state should also offer opportunities to move away from home, without being burdened by accommodation costs. There are plenty of areas that could do with a young labour force able to undertake basic work with a high manual input: farming, insulating properties, care work etc. Also there are lots of areas where state supported labour could yield economic benefits e.g. keeping churches and other buildings open to the public, to encourage tourism, tourism information offices, promoting UK tourism online in other countries, creating tourist attractions within National Parks and so on.

I too favour a flat income tax - more like 20% or 25% I would say. Graduated income tax/NI just makes everything way too complicated and undermines the relationship between effort and reward. I would favour shifting a lot of income tax on to a property tax (not least because it can't be avoided or evaded), while abolishing the local rates and stamp duty (the latter impedes free movement around the country, so reducing labour mobility). There would probably have to be a phase-in period before everyone who buys a house understands clearly that that requires a substantial monthly property tax payment.

Terraformer wrote:

louis, the age of adulthood is 18... people shouldn't be made to be dependent on their parents until they're 25.

Any UBI should be tied to reform of the income tax system. Right now in the UK we have two income taxes, income tax and national insurance, that combined come to I think 12% on income over £7k/year, 32% over £12k/year, 42% over £40k/year... this is inaccurate and from memory, but the point is that it's far more complex than it needs to be. If we brought in a basic income of £6k/year though for adult citizens, we could scrap all that and have a flat 30-40% income tax. One tax, no bands, levied monthly or quarterly. At 40%, £15k a year would be the point at which someone would become a net taxpayer. It would be a negative income tax.

In my implementation, the UBI would replace all benefits except for the housing component (since it varies between different regions) and carers allowance. It would be the basic state pension for those over 65, £500/month for those 18-65, £250/month for 16-18, and £250/month for under-16s (paid to parents/guardians).

It's superior to other welfare systems, because it allows people the flexibility to use it as they see fit to improve their lot (this also makes it the most conservative way to implement a welfare system, since it relies on self responsibility). It gives workers flexibility to retrain, which also improves their bargaining power - we can expect wages to go up when workers can walk away (which also incentivises businesses to invest in automation, no bad thing). It would likely be pro-natal, giving parents the option of staying home and raising their children.

It probably also wouldn't cost that much more than the current welfare+pension system does, and would save a lot of money on the tax and welfare bureaucracy we have.


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#6 2021-08-20 20:38:14

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,112

Re: Spain plans to embrace universal basic income to help alleviate pandem

This topic seems the best fit (of the four containing "income" in the title) for the content I'm posting ...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-sa … 56186.html

Elon Musk said that with the rise of robots, universal basic income will be necessary in the future.

Musk is working on creating a robot that would do mundane tasks so humans don't have to.

This would take away a lot of service jobs, though, which is why humans would need guaranteed income.

See more stories on Insider's business page.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk is stepping behind the universal basic income movement because of the potential rise of robots - in fact, he's working on one himself.

To clarify ... Apparently Musk anticipates that some individuals will want to perform physical work.  I can imagine anyone in the fishing industry enjoys the physicality of that occupation.  I've listened to interviews with fisherpeople, and watched a bit of "Deadliest Catch".

Some folks who do agriculture for a living or as a hobby seem to enjoy the physical labor involved, draining as it often can be even with mechanization to help.

On the ** other ** hand, picking crops is an occupation that very people would perform for the sheer joy of the labor, so for that specialty, fully functional biped robots would seem to be a good fit.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-08-20 20:43:17)

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#7 2021-08-21 08:26:50

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,913

Re: Spain plans to embrace universal basic income to help alleviate pandem

robot that would do mundane tasks so humans don't

Usually this has more to do with injury reduction or production increases from robotic use.

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#8 2021-11-08 14:19:59

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,112

Re: Spain plans to embrace universal basic income to help alleviate pandem

It's time to bring this important topic back into view ...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/robotics-ceo … 18130.html

Tesla CEO Elon Musk also noted this growing trend during a presentation in August, when he said he was working on creating a "Tesla Bot," or a robot that would do "dangerous, repetitive, and boring tasks" so humans don't have to.

"Essentially, in the future, physical work will be a choice," Musk said during the presentation. "This is why I think long term there will need to be a universal basic income," he added.

It is ** entirely ** possible for the population of Earth to provide ample and even abundant supplies of every material resource that might be needed.

It is ** not ** necessary for more than a tiny fraction of the population to be engaged in production of whatever is needed.

The challenge is NOT a technical one (although there ** are ** opportunities to demonstrate problem solving skills).

The challenge is ENTIRELY a social one.  The human population has (so far at least) shown itself incapable of self-organizing so that everyone is provided whatever may be needed for a productive life that includes dignity and personal satisfaction.

(th)

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#9 2021-11-08 19:08:39

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,087

Re: Spain plans to embrace universal basic income to help alleviate pandem

I've changed my view on UBI.

I now see it as a potential trap along with vaccine passporting, Digital ID, digital currencies controlled by central banks, de-meating of our diets and decarbonisation.

The globalists want to make new serfs out of the people, and UBI can only help them along with those other big items.

I would prefer a GRW - Guaranteed Right to Work for all adults.

The new serfdom being created by globalists means you can only travel how and where they say so. It means you have no free speech. It means you can only engage in sexual relations in a certain way (just like the Medieval Church insisted). It means you will be dependent on the globalists for your livelihood. It means you have to restrict your diet in ways the elite don't. It means you are restricted in your ability to heat your home, just like medieval peasants were prevented from gathering fuel from forests.






tahanson43206 wrote:

It's time to bring this important topic back into view ...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/robotics-ceo … 18130.html

Tesla CEO Elon Musk also noted this growing trend during a presentation in August, when he said he was working on creating a "Tesla Bot," or a robot that would do "dangerous, repetitive, and boring tasks" so humans don't have to.

"Essentially, in the future, physical work will be a choice," Musk said during the presentation. "This is why I think long term there will need to be a universal basic income," he added.

It is ** entirely ** possible for the population of Earth to provide ample and even abundant supplies of every material resource that might be needed.

It is ** not ** necessary for more than a tiny fraction of the population to be engaged in production of whatever is needed.

The challenge is NOT a technical one (although there ** are ** opportunities to demonstrate problem solving skills).

The challenge is ENTIRELY a social one.  The human population has (so far at least) shown itself incapable of self-organizing so that everyone is provided whatever may be needed for a productive life that includes dignity and personal satisfaction.

(th)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#10 2021-11-08 19:16:46

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,913

Re: Spain plans to embrace universal basic income to help alleviate pandem

UBI is a subsidization for taking a low paying job that can not be done with robotics among other things not a job.

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#11 2021-11-08 19:53:05

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 8,112

Re: Spain plans to embrace universal basic income to help alleviate pandem

It is ** so ** easy to be confused about Universal Basic Income ...

We see that in media reports, and it may even show up in this forum.

Every child lives within an environment of UBI if their parents can afford to care for them at all.

The idea (on the part of the parents) is to bet on the possibility that the child will grow up to become a productive and decent citizen.

A student who receives a scholarship is receiving a UBI stipend, which is a bet on the part of the donor that the student will complete course work and become a productive and decent citizen.

A person who enrolls in any of the armed services receives a UBI payment.  The government of whatever country is making this investment is betting that the individual will learn the needed skills and perform in an honorable manner.

All (or certainly) most of the reports I have seen indicate that people who receive a UBI payment are encouraged to try for employment, and many make that transition, because the incessant worries about minimal living expenses are lifted just enough so they can see a possibility of getting out of whatever trap they are in.

However, the point that ** I think ** Musk was making is that as robots take on more and more of the mundane drudgery of producing goods and services to sustain the population, the need for humans to engage in that kind of work will decrease.

Humans have ** always ** been capable of more than manual labor, but it has been so easy for a few to restrict the many to such labor, that we (population) seem to think that is the only way to live.

Mr. Musk seems to be trying to alert us that a better day is coming.

(th)

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#12 2021-11-09 19:57:07

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,087

Re: Spain plans to embrace universal basic income to help alleviate pandem

You're trying to impose an ideology-free analysis of UBI. Sadly that's not possible. Globalists take good ideas - e.g. environmental concern. green energy and digital currency and use them for their own purposes.

Your approach is similar to saying "there's nothing wrong with a digitalised currency". Of course there isn't. And I hope to see one on Mars.

But - and it is an exceptionally large but - what is being proposed by central banks is not just digital currency but programmable digital currency. Programmable means traceable which in turn means it is easy  (once linked to Digital ID - the other main policy aim of the globalists) to trace people's purchases and so ration items e.g. meat, gasoline and so on. It becomes and instrument of state control.

Similarly with UBI, while I see merit in it within an economy that is functioning well, that's not how globalists see it. Globalists see UBI as a way of making new serfs of people.  Rather than UBI being a gateway to employment it will be, like the dole in ancient Rome (most of Rome's population was dependent on a free dole out of grain from the elite in return for political and social support) a means of control, to allow the elite to keep their political power.

If as Musk opines, and I think he probably is correct, robots are going to emerge in the next couple of decades that can take on a whole host of menial tasks, then the populist, as opposed to globalist response, should be to reduce the working week and share out the remaining work, not to create a nation of UBI serfs.




tahanson43206 wrote:

It is ** so ** easy to be confused about Universal Basic Income ...

We see that in media reports, and it may even show up in this forum.

Every child lives within an environment of UBI if their parents can afford to care for them at all.

The idea (on the part of the parents) is to bet on the possibility that the child will grow up to become a productive and decent citizen.

A student who receives a scholarship is receiving a UBI stipend, which is a bet on the part of the donor that the student will complete course work and become a productive and decent citizen.

A person who enrolls in any of the armed services receives a UBI payment.  The government of whatever country is making this investment is betting that the individual will learn the needed skills and perform in an honorable manner.

All (or certainly) most of the reports I have seen indicate that people who receive a UBI payment are encouraged to try for employment, and many make that transition, because the incessant worries about minimal living expenses are lifted just enough so they can see a possibility of getting out of whatever trap they are in.

However, the point that ** I think ** Musk was making is that as robots take on more and more of the mundane drudgery of producing goods and services to sustain the population, the need for humans to engage in that kind of work will decrease.

Humans have ** always ** been capable of more than manual labor, but it has been so easy for a few to restrict the many to such labor, that we (population) seem to think that is the only way to live.

Mr. Musk seems to be trying to alert us that a better day is coming.

(th)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#13 2021-11-09 20:04:14

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,913

Re: Spain plans to embrace universal basic income to help alleviate pandem

We are already serfs when we can not afford to live happily.
Robotics will require less people to run them so there are going to be even more people living as serfs are the jobs that they had in technology will be replace with more service jobs....

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#14 2021-11-09 20:34:22

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,087

Re: Spain plans to embrace universal basic income to help alleviate pandem

Yes but there is a reasonable societal response to that: a shorter working week and a Guaranteed Right to Work.

SpaceNut wrote:

We are already serfs when we can not afford to live happily.
Robotics will require less people to run them so there are going to be even more people living as serfs are the jobs that they had in technology will be replace with more service jobs....


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#15 2021-11-09 20:50:15

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,913

Re: Spain plans to embrace universal basic income to help alleviate pandem

The business control whom can and will be an employee so no there is no rights of guarantee. In fact you have a right to do work as a self employed person.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law   is the right to not be forced to join a Union and gives no guarantee that you will be employed by anyone..

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