Not Forgiven - The Taliban

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-13 14:01:01

For Mars_B4_Moon re #76 and topic in general...

One wild card that ** no one ** has commented upon, in ** any ** venue including this one, is what effect (if any) 20 years of Western influence might have had upon the women of Afghanistan.

I have seen reports that a very few sets of women have become fierce fighters against Islamic terrorism ... I'm thinking primarily of the Kurds, but there have been a very small number of other cultures in that region that have produced female warriors.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-08-13 19:17:57

News has people being killed that would follow democracy so there will be no chance for what was started to end well....

Biden said in the statement that he inherited a tenuous situation from the previous administration, claiming that Trump had cut a deal with the Taliban in 2019 that put them in a powerful military

https://time.com/5794643/trumps-disgrac … l-taliban/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51692546

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl … 02376.html

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-08-14 15:03:58

'We lost': Some U.S. veterans say blood spilled in Afghanistan was wasted
https://www.aol.com/news/lost-u-veteran … 25951.html
.
Biden approves additional forces to help drawdown of personnel from Kabul
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/biden … 08000.html
,
https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/statu … 1629716485
The Taliban not only seized appr. a hundred US humvees and (MaxxPro) MRAPs at Kunduz airport, but also several US ScanEagle drones.
Billions of US tax payer $ going to Islamist extremists, thanks to the administration's hasty withdrawal without a peace deal or follow up mission.

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-14 16:56:13

Earlier today I caught an interview with a retired US General who advocates hitting the Taliban hard while they're all stretched out on highways.

Also earlier, in an article on the Internet, I ran across an author who remembered Nixon's use of air power to clobber the Viet Cong when they had transitioned from guerrilla warfare to mechanized traditional warfare too early.

Finally, somewhere in all the deluge of incoming items today, I noticed a brief claim that Senator McConnell is urging Biden to clobber the Taliban with air power.

I don't think Biden is all that blood thirsty .... In that respect I am reminded of Bush Senior, who decided NOT to kill all the Iraqi's straggling back home from Kuwait.

This looks to me like a time when a modest amount of blood letting would be a useful tactic.

In the absence of US blood letting, the Taliban would appear ready to do plenty of their version of the tactic.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-08-14 19:04:17

At this time troops sent are to bring people in Kabul to safety with the sending of troops back to rescue the interpreters and embassy personnel.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-08-15 06:31:32

Back in the day when the Soviets were a problem Reagan used to dedicate Shuttle launches to the Mujahideen Al-Qaeda types...i guess they were not aware of the islamo-monster that would be later created. Hollywood or Hollyweird movies doing the Rambo 3, were the Dedication Credits for Rambo III movie Changed, the British region DVD still has the Mujahideen dedications?? Today a new real world real-life film is out with them and thier guns and rpgs mounted on the back of a totoya or US humvee

It seems a lot of gossip on social media says Kabul is about to Fall, same thing repeated on leftwing sites and rightwing sites from liberal democratic underground to the free republic message board, the blogs, the twitters all say its going to fall.
I searched this topic, I guess it was interesting in a ways digging through old threads some would discuss the War on Terror and Bush-Jnr, others would talk of the expanding 'Axis of Evil' and the Neo-Con policy. There were heated controversial threads like 'What if we lose #2 - Further thoughts' on newmars ...others were pro-Bush others anti-Republican but maybe did not expect another President to continue wars, Obama to expand intervention and wars with the Arab Sping, Libya and an admin that seen the growth of the ISIS cult jihadi empire in Syria, does the 'War on Terror' have a final objective... The United States is pulling out of Afghanistan after 20 years of the conflict, the US allies are also going, Predictably the Taliban is taking over the country, but maybe the islamist mohammedans of the Taliban are taking over even more quickly than expected.

it has become a major news item with film and pix
its trending on twitter now
https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/stat … 3267909633
,
https://twitter.com/IndiaToday/status/1 … 2364420096

'We're powerless to do anything' about the Taliban takeover in Afghanistan
https://www.bitchute.com/video/CmdzsisDn14/

Taliban Take Kandahar, 12th Provincial Capital Of 34 Total
https://rumble.com/vl2g3a-taliban-take- … total.html

With the 911 Attacks so many years ago I don't think the true plan was to ever bring 'Democracy' to Afghanistan, one of the objectives was get bin Laden, 28 pages were censored from the 911 report linking Saudis to the Attacks but officially in the news one of the goals was to find Osama bin Laden ...However he was found inside Pakistan. Once bin Laden was dead in 2011, the Pentagon could have planned for the pull out, the political elites maybe then perhaps should have been ordered to leave and set up a security read to defend itself...but would the islamist mohammedans always stab America in the back?

Foxnews slams Biden’s actions, they were one of the first to call him out but they have limited blame for Bush.
Now Biden and Kamala Harris scrambling troops to send back for PR so we don't have Vietnam style pix and film in the world media?

Mainstream media seems to be reporting on t he fall
https://www.newsweek.com/liz-cheney-fac … se-1619468
,
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/bide … e-n1276840
,
https://nypost.com/2021/08/14/mitch-mcc … t-taliban/
,
https://www.kentucky.com/news/nation-wo … 91799.html

Taliban see more Advances in Afghanistan, Taliban now Gains Control of All But Two Major Cities?

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-08-15 06:34:59)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-15 06:43:31

For Mars_B4_Moon ....

Thanks for the comprehensive update on the rout of US supported forces by the Taliban.

This morning's news feed included a brief report that Taliban are in the outskirts of Kabul, and have issued a statement that they are waiting for surrender of the city and are not planning attacks. That seems like a sensible policy (if the report is true). Biden is (apparently) trying to get as many people out as he can, and it is in the Taliban's best interest to avoid provoking the Americans (and NATO forces) during the evacuation.

I still think it is possible the women who were given 20 years exposure to a better life may have a vote. That vote would have been stronger if the US had done more to develop the women as a fighting force. The example of Kurdish women becoming fierce fighters is worth noting.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-08-15 11:11:02

Mars_B4_Moon wrote:

Biden administration shrugs off pressure to remove Trump-era China trade war tariffs
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article … na-tariffs
Sunday Morning Post, is a Hong Kong-based English-language newspaper, it was once owned by the Murdoch media family NewsEmpire, it has remained Hong Kong's newspaper of record since British colonial rule.
Editor-in-chief Tammy Tam succeeded Wang Xiangwei in 2016.
Everyone knew a day could come where the USA pulls back from the world of Afghan warlords maybe pull out even like Vietnam, maybe even has a recession looming like the recessions of the 1970s and 80s, in Afghan land a group like the Taliban and ''overwhelmed'' local trained troops ... or did America train a people that would once again stab America in the back?
Here's Why Biden Is Sticking With The U.S. Exit From Afghanistan
https://www.krcu.org/post/heres-why-bid … fghanistan
The msn news headline reads -
Taliban's Afghanistan advance tests Biden's 'America is back' foreign policy promise
https://www.msn.com/
The US: Almost always at war.
https://www.michaelwest.com.au/the-us-a … ed-repost/
Afghanistan and the Great Powers
https://www.neweurope.eu/article/afghan … at-powers/
Despite Taliban Advances, Central Asia Eyes Trade Ties With South Asia
https://www.rferl.org/a/taliban-central … 71926.html
Terraformer wrote:
If the Saudis weren't attacking Yemen, then maybe they wouldn't be attacked from Yemen. The Saudi's picked this fight - let's not let them cower behind America when their victim fights back.
The Middle East burns as Iran and Saudi having their proxy wars with Russia and the USA selling them weapons, these weapons which soemtimes end up in hands of terrorists?
More on Mohammedans, Saudi, Yemen and the Middle East
US announces more aid as Yemen fighting, peace efforts stall
https://news.yahoo.com/us-announces-mor … 53635.html
'9/11 Families Urge Biden To Fulfill Promise, Release Info On Saudi Role'
https://www.ibtimes.com/911-families-ur … le-3268225
Congress Needs to Force Biden to End the Yemen War
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2021 … -yemen-war

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-08-16 11:38:10

It looks like all the world news, the global newspapers will now talk about how Kabul is going to fall

it might have even already fallen, on twitter and other social media I see film of people over-running the runway, some grabbing wheels of planes as they take off, trying to cling onto the roof or wing of an aircraft from Kabul International Airport....then an Apache comes in and scatters them like leaves in the wind to make quick space for a Cargo Aircraft to make a sudden emergency take off.
The scenes are like something un-believeable, maybe like something from a scifi horror apocalypse movie, but it isn't a movie these are real people and its real life film. The security situation in Kabul is in rapid change it is changing quickly, in the city we see new reports on social media all the time including at the airport.

Some say this war had no true objective, islamists and democracy is nothing something that seems to co-exist, I don't think people who get offended by funny cartoons or music or 'bacon' I don't think islam ever really wanst to support democracy. Then you had Saudis that got pages from the 911 report censored, some say its all falling down and its like Saigon Vietnam all over again. Other people comment bin Laden hid out in Pakistan all this time and that Pakistanis were always hevaily involved.

However as much as the USA got caught up in patriotism and needed to fight this War-on-Terror what were the true objectives? Could the USA waste so much time, money, teasure, blood and energy in a never-ending war with no outcome? Once bin Laden was dead the USA could have found a way to train up local military and police and find a way to pull out, so why didn't think? Were the islamics never trusted, perhaps it was thought mohammedans, Afghan islamists, Sunni radicals, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban were all kinds of radicals, brothers to each other and they would find a way to bring terrorism back? The USA spent years there funding and training new forces, it's falling apart in days.

Other people complain it is the way Biden is withdrawing that is a failure.
It seems the Afghan President is now an Ex-President and rather than stand and fight he has decided to flee the country. Both Republican and Democrat will finally able to admit this now that the war is over, however images on tv, the news reports, the film videos are going to show tragedy, fear and horrors.

Saigon then, Kabul now:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/0 … -compared/

Some of the stuff across social media
CNN Reporter in Kabul: "They’re Just Chanting ‘Death to America’ But They Seem Friendly at the Same Time"
The Taliban enters Kabul, leaves Afghan government on brink of collapse
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142785364
https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/1274035432190906386
'Chaos As Thousands Flee Afghanistan After Taliban Takeover'
https://rumble.com/vl8g34-chaos-as-thou … eover.html

Biden reportedly orders 1,000 MORE troops to Kabul (on top of the additional troops over the weekend)
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2021/08/ … e-weekend/
The Afghanistan Withdrawal Is A Horrorshow
https://www.bitchute.com/video/j_B7pBTZ4Bk/
and maybe a US 'ally' Pakistan was always involved.

‘Saigon on Steroids’: The Desperate Rush to Flee
https://www.wsj.com/articles/saigon-on- … 1629071999

Hasty Withdrawl?
https://rumble.com/vl7dc5-bongino-blast … istan.html

The situation at Kabul international airport is "tenuous", and US officials are considering evacuating all Americans and leaving Afghans behind, according to CBS News, the BBC's US partner. The decision to abandon Afghan allies has not yet been made, said CBS National Security Correspondent David Martin, but it is "on the table" and will be explored if American troops cannot take control of the airport.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-asia-58219963

Biden to speak on Afghanistan after Taliban takes over Kabul
https://www.bitchute.com/video/kU2LDt4rYKw/

Video shows thousands of Afghans desperately chasing after and clinging to a US aircraft moments before it took off from # Kabul airport in the frantic attempt to flee the country after the # Taliban takeover.
https://twitter.com/nojumper/status/1427287162131648520
The Chaos, the flood of people running is sooo big it can easily be seen by Satellites form Outer-Space
https://twitter.com/Maxar/status/1427287696578392064
New high-res # satellite imagery (10:36 am local time, August 16) of the chaotic scene underway at # Kabul’s Hamid Karzai International Airport in # Afghanistan as thousands of people converged on the tarmac & airport runways as countries attempt to evacuate personnel from the city.

Steve Bannon is on social media, he is worried about Terrorist Refugees or Asylum Seekers who are Really Terror Islamists? https://rumble.com/vl8jc3-tens-of-thous … to-us.html
The social media account is called 'Bannons War Room'

Tennessee Republicans in Congress blame Biden as Taliban gains control of Afghanistan
https://www.dnj.com/story/news/politics … 148605002/

Americans urged to ‘shelter’ as Taliban move in on Kabul airport
https://nypost.com/2021/08/15/americans … l-airport/

Biden, Trump battle over who's to blame for Afghanistan, biden blamed Trump and Trump blames Biden...Trump now banned from facebook and banned from using twitter still gets his message out and calls for Biden to resign over Taliban takeover of Afghanistan
the Terrorist groups like the Taliban btw are still operating Facebook and Twitter Social media accounts

Donald Trump Jr slams Biden silence after Afghanistan falls to Taliban as Jen Psaki blasted for ‘out of office’ message
https://www.the-sun.com/news/3483628/do … jen-psaki/
Quote
'Trump calls on Biden to 'resign in disgrace' amid Afghanistan withdrawal'
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-calls-bide … 00665.html

The Afghan problem seems to have gone on a while back to Obama's time and the Neo-Con warmongering of Bush-Jnr but politics in the USA will now fling mud at each other?
Maybe Joe Biden's admin did make mistakes

How Joe botched Afghanistan: Biden ignored Pentagon warnings the Taliban would take over
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … -over.html

Biden team surprised by rapid Taliban gains in Afghanistan
https://www.whas11.com/article/news/nat … 8d7fcc67dd

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-08-16 11:38:48)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-08-16 14:48:07

I wonder if Russia will recognize the Talibans?

Russia says no plan to evacuate Kabul embassy. "No evacuation is planned," foreign ministry official Kabulov said, adding that he was "in direct contact" with Moscow's ambassador in Kabul and that Russian embassy employees continued to work "calmly"
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/08/ … ssy-a74793

The long term legacy, all of this will be examined over time, it will become part of history. Some comapre the evacuations, might compare it to Nixon and Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson and Gerald Ford's thoughts in Vietnam, and Ford's reaction on Resignation of South Vietnam's President. Ford btw in his private statements was very critical of Bush Jnr's mistakes on the War on Terror, Ford had given these interviews knowing they would go public after his death.

I watched US President Biden's press conference and I think I respect him more. Maybe he did also point blame at others but he owned it and took responsibility for what's happening. He made the point should America be in Afghanistan forever trying to nation building, it could cost another Trillion that's anotehr what 40 Apollo style NASA human space programs stacked on top of each other which Apollo cost roughly $25.4 billion, unadjusted? Joe Biden made the point that Afghanistan already cost hardship to families, he can not always stay there and he didnt want to pass it onto a 5th President be they Republican or Democrat. Maybe he could have talked to the press more and I guess maybe Joe Biden did storms off after the 20-minute speech,but I guess he has to be respected as he stands by his tough decision. He also put blame on local Afghan military and said the Afghans themselves lacked the will to fight for their own country. I also understand the critics of biden the country the nation in chaos as the last people pull out, pix or film of shooting, deadly chaos at airport etc Biden said he 'Stands Squarely Behind' Decision To Withdraw but also Said Afghanistan Collapsed Faster than Expected.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-08-16 16:10:50)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-08-16 17:50:17

French leader Macron says in address to nation that Afghanistan must not be 'sanctuary of terrorism' again
https://www.france24.com/en/france/2021 … fghanistan

Chilling reports' of human rights abuse and 'mounting' violations against women after Taliban sweep to power, UN Security Council told
https://news.sky.com/story/afghanistan- … r-12382946

Afghan Embassy in India Called Afghan President Ashraf Ghani a "Traitor" ... the Afghan President who ran.
https://www.businessinsider.com/afghan- … tor-2021-8

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-16 18:41:47

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi … ket-newtab

We didn’t fight a 20-year war in Afghanistan; we fought 20 incoherent wars, one year at a time, without a sense of direction. The U.S. military can and should be blamed for the collapse of security forces in Afghanistan—I hold us responsible. The current collapse keeps me up at night. In the military, the main effort gets the best resources and the best talent available. For more than 20 years, no matter what was reported, what we read in the headlines, efforts to build and train large-scale conventional security forces in Afghanistan and Iraq have mostly been an aimless, ham-fisted acronym soup of trial and error that never became the true main effort, and we are to blame for that.

OF1939 and I are the only members of the forum who have (mentioned) experience in the US Army.

kbd512 has extensive experience in the US Navy.

GW Johnson has ** some ** experience with the US Navy.

The Colonel's critique of the US effort in Afghanistan (and Iraq before that) rings true to my ear.

A television commentator today observed that the US Army has a couple hundred years of trial and error to be able to mount a reliable, effective force. Twenty years is simply not enough time to build a reliable force given the social situation that existed. We are able to incorporate US Citizens into armed forces because they are raised (for the most part) in a social context that allows them to succeed. The Afghans had no such culture to prepare them for the US concept of an armed force.

The Colonel's critique seemed to me to ** really ** hit home when he observed that the "back room" operations never received the kind of intense guidance that was needed. Failure to pay troops in the field or to even feed them is an elementary failure of the command structure, but from what I have read, officers routine shphoned off US funds allocated for those purposes.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-08-16 18:45:17)

kbd512 · 2021-08-17 01:06:09

tahanson43206,

I can tell you that the security failures in Afghanistan were not for lack of effort on our part. We can provide the uniform / boots / rifle / helmet / plate carrier / radio, as well as the education and training to use all of those tools effectively, but the one thing we can never teach anyone is a willingness to fight for what they believe in, nor what to believe, nor why to believe it. That has to come from within. If you didn't enter the military with the resolve to fight and win, no matter what it takes, then no amount of money spent on training can ever instill that in you.

The Afghan military offered no effective resistance to the Taliban, and that is the only reason why they were able to take over Afghanistan so quickly. Apart from a willingness to fight, there is literally nothing that the Taliban had more of than the ANA did when the Taliban traipsed through Afghanistan, all the way to Kabul, almost unopposed. This is obviously not universally applicable, as the ANA did have some truly excellent fighters, but a substantial portion of the 300,000 troops fielded needed to be fully committed to fighting the enemy. That obviously did not happen, so the Taliban taking over was the inevitable result.

The leadership in our military has repeatedly made the fallacious assumption that if they provided all of the advantages to the home team, that the home team would naturally win. That hasn't worked anywhere else we've tried it, either. There's no institutionalized memory of past failures, meaning that when the experienced soldiers leave, their knowledge of what works and what doesn't work leaves with them. If we appointed a maximum of four Generals who did 5 year tours of duty in Afghanistan, where they were living in Afghanistan for a substantial portion of that tour, the end result would look very different. If you're going to "build a nation", then you actually have to live there to see what goes on, day-to-day. A 1 year tour of duty can't provide enough time-in-country to evaluate changes.

Now they expect people to be in some role for 6 months and then move on to doing something else, as if it was even possible to begin to understand what you need to know to be effective. It doesn't work that way for medical doctors, lawyers, or any other profession where hard-won experience is required to achieve the desired results. Any civilian who thinks they know more or could do a better job should raise their right hand to see if they still think the same thing two years later. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy, whereas all BS stops the moment you enter the arena.

Failing to pay, never mind feed, troops in the field is utterly inexcusable nonsense that should never be permitted to occur. I have no idea how that happened, but it's grounds for imprisonment for theft.

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-17 07:21:57

For kbd512 re #88

At first quick scan, I get the sense this post is important and deserves study and a thoughtful reply.

Todo:Talliban post

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-08-17 07:30:19

Very accurate kbd512 assessment of the situation in Afghanistan, its the next few months to years that will tell of the choices we and others have made....

The Taliban declared an “amnesty” across Afghanistan and urged women to join their government Tuesday, seeking to convince a wary population that they have changed a day after deadly chaos gripped the main airport as desperate crowds tried to flee their rule.

Seems the Taliban are willing to not interfere with Kabul evacuations resume while Biden defends U.S. withdrawal

Quaoar · 2021-08-18 05:40:55

SpaceNut wrote:

Very accurate kbd512 assessment of the situation in Afghanistan, its the next few months to years that will tell of the choices we and others have made....
The Taliban declared an “amnesty” across Afghanistan and urged women to join their government Tuesday, seeking to convince a wary population that they have changed a day after deadly chaos gripped the main airport as desperate crowds tried to flee their rule.
Seems the Taliban are willing to not interfere with Kabul evacuations resume while Biden defends U.S. withdrawal

Do not pay attention to what your enemy says but to what he does

Sun Tsu

Last edited by Quaoar (2021-08-18 06:02:15)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-18 06:36:16

For SpaceNut re #91

There are some interesting aspects of the present situation .... The gent who is (apparently) heading up the Talliban these days was a co-founder with the original leader. They both attended an islamic school, and they developed the Talliban concept when the Soviets were on their adventure. He spent several years in a Pakistani prison, apparently at the request of the United States. Then, (apparently) the Trump administration requested his release from prison, and negotiated with him to enable the US to wind down operations in Afghanistan. The deal was that the Talliban would not continue killing Americans, and the Americans would get out.

That is more or less what happened.

The publicity campaign orchestrated from the media facilities of the former Afghan government was (according to reports) professionally done.

However, NO one interviewed in the coverage I saw thought that the pretty words of the Talliban leader has anything to do with what is to come.

The best guesses I heard were that the Talliban will restrain themselves while the US pulls any and all opposition out of the country, and then lower the boom.

The one assurance that most pundits thought the Talliban ** would ** keep is to NOT allow attacks on other nations from Afghanistan. That would be astonishingly stupid, and stupid these folks are not.

(th)

Quaoar · 2021-08-19 03:39:17

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut re #91
There are some interesting aspects of the present situation .... The gent who is (apparently) heading up the Talliban these days was a co-founder with the original leader. They both attended an islamic school, and they developed the Talliban concept when the Soviets were on their adventure. He spent several years in a Pakistani prison, apparently at the request of the United States. Then, (apparently) the Trump administration requested his release from prison, and negotiated with him to enable the US to wind down operations in Afghanistan. The deal was that the Talliban would not continue killing Americans, and the Americans would get out.
That is more or less what happened.
The publicity campaign orchestrated from the media facilities of the former Afghan government was (according to reports) professionally done.
However, NO one interviewed in the coverage I saw thought that the pretty words of the Talliban leader has anything to do with what is to come.
The best guesses I heard were that the Talliban will restrain themselves while the US pulls any and all opposition out of the country, and then lower the boom.
The one assurance that most pundits thought the Talliban ** would ** keep is to NOT allow attacks on other nations from Afghanistan. That would be astonishingly stupid, and stupid these folks are not.
(th)

The Talibans promised to be peaceful and non violent, then in Jalalabad they massacred a crowd of protesters (maybe their concept of non-violence is just a bit different from ours). I also have seen a video where Afghan soldiers were executed by the Talibans after surrendering. And that's only the beginning.
US has blocked the Afghan government founds in Americans banks, but almost 15000 US citizens are still in Afghanistan: I strongly hope to be wrong, but it's not so unreal to foresee a very sad scenario where hostages are held for years in exchange for unlocking the money.

Last edited by Quaoar (2021-08-19 03:45:44)

Calliban · 2021-08-19 04:19:16

British soldiers that I have spoken to are generally unimpressed by the competence of US ground forces. They are well equipped and well supplied, but training and leadership are poor by British standards. The phrase that I hear often is "all the gear, and no idea". I don't know how true it actually is.

All the same, the entire world was looking on as the US was defeated by a bunch of half arsed, unwashed, mountain guerrillas, armed with AK47s, but otherwise medieval levels of education and technology. They couldn't even manage their own retreat, leaving thousands of their own people and a lot of their own equipment stranded. This is going to do very bad things for people's impression of the US as a global power around the world. Expect Russia to be more assertive now in Eastern Europe and China to be more assertive over Taiwan. The US is divided and run by a corrupt government that doesn't even have the will to protect its own borders. Not my words, but those of a top ranking US intelligence operative, now retired.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ … es-history

Last edited by Calliban (2021-08-19 04:22:18)

Quaoar · 2021-08-19 05:25:04

I've never been in the military, but common sense suggests to firstly bring home all the civilians then take out the soldiers, not vice versa.

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-19 07:24:32

For Quaoar re #95

Your comment is interesting.

As a medical doctor, you might be able to imagine yourself in the position of a commander of a unit.

If the medical director of your facility commands you to remove yourself and your staff in an emergency, you would follow the orders.

If the medical director commands you to bring patients with you while saving staff, you would follow those orders.

In this case, the US (Donald Trump) had negotiated removal of US troops if the Talliban would stop shooting at them.

Donald Trump DID NOT negotiate for removal of civilians, let along Afghan nationals.

The Talliban kept their part of the bargain, and so did the US military, following the orders of Donald Trump.

There are some who might argue the negotiations with the Talliban were poorly done, short sighted and a disaster waiting to happen.

In the present circumstance, the negotiated plan was executed, disaster ensued, and troops returned to the disaster scene to save as many as possible.

Recriminations will echo for decades, but the goal of the negotiations was to stop the killing of American soldiers, and that seems to have been achieved.

(th)

kbd512 · 2021-08-19 09:08:36

Calliban,

I'm curious about what "defeat" you're speaking of? The US was not "defeated" by the Taliban, which never won a single battle during the entire war. Remember what happened to the Taliban the first time we invaded? They either ran away from US forces like whipped puppies or they were killed where they stood. Whenever the Taliban runs up against any real opposition, they promptly run away, because they know they will be easily defeated if they stay and fight. Our Democrats decided to let the Taliban take over again, because they're no longer interested in maintaining a military presence in Afghanistan. That's all that happened here.

I've seen both British Army training and US Army training. There's nothing particularly unique or impressive about either training regimen, nor are there any budding rocket scientists present in either group, not that that level of intellect is required. When you speak of competence, I think you're referring to the competence of our civilian leadership. Whenever we (those of us in the military) "do something stupid", it's generally at the behest of civilians on the other side of the world, who will suffer no immediate consequences from their poor decision making skills. The very idea that those of us who serve in the US military get to decide which orders to follow is total garbage. From an outside perspective, what's going on certainly "looks stupid", because it is, but our military is subservient to people like President Biden who are utterly clueless about running military operations, because they've never been involved in one, except as a spectator. It's a chess / video game to them. If a few bullets started snapping past their heads during the game, then they'd either get a clue real quick or become "modern art masterpieces". People both inside and outside of the US Army told the Biden Administration how to go about evacuating our personnel from Afghanistan. Those people were completely ignored. The very predictable end result is a mess.

This happened because Democrats voted for the actual moron, President Biden, that the American media successfully painted President Trump out to be, because they're America-hating anarchists and communists who want to destroy America from within, in service to their nihilistic ideology. It's akin to the behavior exhibited by the Democrats when they call Republicans racists. Abraham Lincoln was a Republican who took the Democrats' slaves away from them, and their progeny is still upset over that fact to this day. That's why they import illegals by the millions, but never make them citizens, even when they have the Presidency and both Houses of Congress. They're real honest-to-goodness racists who want to re-establish functional slavery in modern America, prettied-up to comport with modern Democrat Party orthodoxy, which constantly changes because they cater to "the mob" rather than "the people". Whatever Democrats tell you about the Republicans, is ALWAYS most applicable to them. They keep telling you about themselves through what they choose to talk about, but the people who should be paying attention never do. If you ask the average Democrat voter what they actually believe in, very few of them can tell you, because they don't do much thinking for themselves. It's painfully obvious that they don't, because when you question them about their beliefs, none of what comes out of their mouths afterwards adheres to their own assertions of belief.

The Democrats are not protecting our borders because some of them think that they can import collectivist hordes from Central and South America by the millions to overwhelm our ability to pay for their evil ideology, and that somehow that will give them an edge in the polls. It's deliberate. We know full well what they're doing, there's simply nothing we can legally do to stop it, which is why it continues unabated. The people who actually make such decisions are not incompetent, they simply have a burning hatred in their hearts for the very idea of America and they want to destroy it from within. They will not stop until they turn America into a totalitarian banana republic, then they'll either become peaceful slaves to that system or be ground up by the horror show they've created.

As far as Russia or China seeing this as a "sign of weakness", the same blather was bandied about after the Viet Nam War. Despite the media reports, the US never lost a single battle in Viet Nam, but somehow "lost the war". That's pretty remarkable. I didn't know it was possible for the communists to never win a single battle, yet somehow "win the war". Then again, I'm not a communist so I don't understand their anti-logic. That said, the fledgling communist Viet Nam was promptly invaded by neighboring China, to "teach them a lesson" (over allying themselves with Russia vs China), whereupon the Vietnamese promptly wiped the floor with the Chinese Army sent in by Beijing. That was the last military engagement undertaken by the communist Chinese military against an armed opposing force, and they lost so many men and so much equipment that they turned tail and ran away in less than a week. So, imagine you're in the US military, you've not only held onto the part of Viet Nam that you had to fight to secure to begin with, but also never engaged in battle without a wildly lopsided casualty ratio in your favor, yet you're branded as "the loser" in communism-loving western media because your nation ultimately left after your civilian government decided it wasn't worth the money spent and lives lost.

If we wiped out the entirety of the Taliban, but then a new Taliban was formed after we left, we didn't "lose to the Taliban", but we didn't "win anything", either. Nobody over here could figure out what a victory would actually look like, because we already kicked their butts, they turned tail and ran away or died wherever they were stupid enough to fight us, and then came back after we left. If that's what "winning" looks like, then by that definition the US won. That's essentially the argument of the people who say we lost. Really? What did we lose? A bunch of people almost totally unwilling to fight for their own country? What a loss!

The only real "mistake" or "loss" was America spending two trillion dollars in Afghanistan, only to learn that the people living there were mostly unwilling to fight for their own country, and would rather be run by a group of murderous thugs, so long as said murderous thugs were victimizing people that they want victimized. That's nothing more than tribalism at its worst. Russia or China supporting bands of murderous thugs is not news, either. They revel in that kind of butchery, which is why their countries are run by the likes of Putin and Jinping. It's not all "accidental". It's a value statement. Neither the puppet dictator Russian government nor the communist Chinese government values humanity at all, period, no different from the Taliban. They value power, or at least the appearance of power, and the use of power to victimize people they don't like, reason unimportant, and that's it. The object lesson to be learned should be that we refuse to devote American lives and treasure defending people who won't fight for their own survival. If that means hordes of murderous thugs overrun countries in other parts of the world, then so be it. Eventually everyone will be killed or the people will grow tired of it and decide to do something about it. They can call on America to help AFTER they decide to personally do something about it, but not a moment before then.

That sounds a bit harsh, doesn't it? Well... Reality is often pretty ugly.

kbd512 · 2021-08-19 09:29:49

tahanson43206,

We really need to stop trying to find a way to blame President Trump for something that President Biden is solely responsible for. President Biden had 8 months in office to organize an orderly withdrawal of American troops, civilians, and foreign nationals who helped us during the war. The Taliban weren't even in Afghanistan until a few weeks ago. The Biden Administration was handed lists of people to evacuate by people who served on the ground in Afghanistan during the war. President Biden utterly failed to do anything whatsoever to prepare for an orderly withdrawal. Failing to prepare is no different than preparing to fail. You DO NOT get to blame other people for failing to prepare. President Trump is NOT responsible for the deliberate course of action taken by his successor, nor will he ever be. On that note, the US is under no obligation to remove foreign nationals from their home country. IF we choose to do that, then how that works is at our sole discretion. The US is obligated to remove all American citizens from Afghanistan. The Taliban also agreed to that as a precondition for US troop withdrawal. Thus far, the Taliban has mostly been standing around with their guns pointed at the sky, taking a victory lap such as it were, despite never winning a single battle in 20 years, which means there's still adequate time to evacuate all remaining Americans and friendly forces who decide to leave Afghanistan. Those who choose to remain already know what they're getting with the Taliban.

Quaoar · 2021-08-19 13:04:31

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Quaoar re #95
Your comment is interesting.
As a medical doctor, you might be able to imagine yourself in the position of a commander of a unit.
If the medical director of your facility commands you to remove yourself and your staff in an emergency, you would follow the orders.
If the medical director commands you to bring patients with you while saving staff, you would follow those orders.
In this case, the US (Donald Trump) had negotiated removal of US troops if the Talliban would stop shooting at them.
Donald Trump DID NOT negotiate for removal of civilians, let along Afghan nationals.
The Talliban kept their part of the bargain, and so did the US military, following the orders of Donald Trump.
There are some who might argue the negotiations with the Talliban were poorly done, short sighted and a disaster waiting to happen.
In the present circumstance, the negotiated plan was executed, disaster ensued, and troops returned to the disaster scene to save as many as possible.
Recriminations will echo for decades, but the goal of the negotiations was to stop the killing of American soldiers, and that seems to have been achieved.
(th)

Trump may have his faults, but now the commander in chief is Biden, and he had the moral duty to protect at least US citizens (if not US allies), but he failed to do it. Leaving 15000 Americans in the hands of these barbarians who will likely use them as hostage is not a good result.

kbd512 · 2021-08-19 13:42:00

Quaoar,

Quaoar wrote:

Trump may have his faults, but now the commander in chief is Biden, and he had the moral duty to protect at least US citizens (if not US allies), but he failed to do it. Leaving 15000 Americans in the hands of these barbarians who will likely use them as hostage is not a good result.

Thank you for attributing credit to whom credit is so rightly due.

What we are witnessing is objective reality steamrolling over ideologically-held beliefs bereft of any moral or merely pragmatic value. The leadership of the Democrat Party does not care at all, not even a little bit, about the lives of the people they are supposed to protect and defend from all enemies, both foreign and domestic. After they vanquished their political enemies by getting elected, unless you were providing the money to help them do that, then your value to their cause ceased to exist.

This was the inevitable result of ceding power to people who are manifestly unfit to govern, because their dogmatic adherence to a morally bankrupt ideology that they helped create has superseded all other considerations, especially at the cost of human life, which they do not value. Whenever their ideology is "neither a here nor a there", with respect to objective reality, they are "missing in action" or "empty suits", as it pertains to actual leadership. President Trump was an existential threat to the "screw over the American people" game that both the Democrats and Republicans have been playing for so long as I've been alive, which was why he had to go.

Whatever it is that these people say to the electorate who voted for them, know that if your life truly depends upon them caring about your continued existence, then you are in very deep trouble, because they do not value you, unless you can somehow be transformed into a chess piece for their next political game intended to distract everyone while they rob America blind. If I knew how they were getting so many people to fall for their load of crap, then I would spend every waking hour trying to put an end to it. Their arrogance is positively breathtaking to behold- both parties, mind you.

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