Global Energy Balance

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-30 14:10:43

For SpaceNut .... there was no topic containing these three words.

The purpose of this topic is to provide a place for forum members to add to knowledge about the energy imbalance currently reported for the Earth, and to contribute to creative thinking about how to address it.

The inspiration for this topic comes from a combination of statements made in other topics about various energy collection methods, and reports of NASA studies showing that in recent times, the Earth has collected more energy from the Sun than it has radiated back to space.

It should be noted that the energy budget of the Earth includes radioactivity in the core, as well as burning of fossil fuels by humans and occasionally by Nature when fires occur.

I'm hoping that creative thinking will reveal ways to radiate excess energy to space, although as I launch this new topic, I have no idea what those ideas might be.

One thing I'm pretty sure of ... whoever comes up with ways of radiating excess energy to space, and thus restoring the energy balance of the planet, will deserve whatever accolades will be forthcoming.

(th)

louis · 2021-06-30 15:50:35

Don't forget the excess energy from nuclear power as well.

The NASA studies are highly problematic. When I've read into this topic, you find basically that all the data collected by orbiting satellites has to be processed and interpreted, which involves incorporating assumptions eg about things like wave height IIRC.

The temptation for NASA must be to err on the side of climate alarmism, because that's the best way to get positive publicity and avoid criticism.

Until we actually starting losing significant islands in the Maldives and Seychelles I'm not inclined to believe the global warming propaganda.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut .... there was no topic containing these three words.
The purpose of this topic is to provide a place for forum members to add to knowledge about the energy imbalance currently reported for the Earth, and to contribute to creative thinking about how to address it.
The inspiration for this topic comes from a combination of statements made in other topics about various energy collection methods, and reports of NASA studies showing that in recent times, the Earth has collected more energy from the Sun than it has radiated back to space.
It should be noted that the energy budget of the Earth includes radioactivity in the core, as well as burning of fossil fuels by humans and occasionally by Nature when fires occur.
I'm hoping that creative thinking will reveal ways to radiate excess energy to space, although as I launch this new topic, I have no idea what those ideas might be.
One thing I'm pretty sure of ... whoever comes up with ways of radiating excess energy to space, and thus restoring the energy balance of the planet, will deserve whatever accolades will be forthcoming.
(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-30 15:58:03

For Louis re #2

Thanks for helping to put this new topic on the map! You've introduced a healthy note of skepticism!

It should be possible for forum members to add to the sum of knowledge over time.

I think it is worth noting that there are both direct and indirect ways of measuring energy flows.

My hope is that this topic will attract statements of fact that can be verified, and explanations of complex physics that many readers will appreciate.

We have at least one member who (I think) may well be qualified to comment upon energy flows at the planetary level.

Again, thanks for a nice running start!

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-07-06 05:58:06

The Internet News Feed thought I'd be interested in this item ...

ScienceReuters Videos
Video
Italian glacier covered up to prevent melting
Experts say that approximately 70% of the snow can be saved over the summer season with the protective covering which basically works in the same way as a reflective window guard similar to those we would put on our dashboard to stop our cars overheating in the hot months.The reflective strips are 5-metres-wide and 70-metres-long and are laid across the glacier. They reflect the solar radiation away from the glacier so the snow does not melt as much."... we go to the glacier throughout the year

I admire the thought behind this effort, and hope it will be successful for the patch of glacier being protected.

Those tarps could have been (or could be) covered with solar panels, but it will (probably) be all the caretakers can do to lay thin tarp and recover it later.

That's going to be an annual activity.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-07-06 20:21:01

Solar panels would need to be mounted high above the tarps so as to keep the heat absorbed from being radiated to the snow below them... spacing the panels appart to not allow for concentrating of the heat would also be a plus.

tahanson43206 · 2021-07-06 21:30:59

For SpaceNut re #5

Thanks for noting the idea of putting reflective foil over glacier surface to reflect sunlight back to the sky.

Your comment about solar panels radiating heat is interesting. I had not heard anyone bring that up before.

My guess is that for most situations where solar panels are installed, heat from the panels themselves is a small part of what is flowing due to solar flux at the location.

I can understand why you would bring it up in the context of trying to protect glaciers.

One detail that I ** think ** I read in the article is that the covering is a kind of foil. I presume it can reflect heat from a solar panel, since it is able to reflect heat from the Sun.

However, what ** may ** be news to some readers of this topic is that (apparently) there is a thin coating of solar sensitive material that can be laid on the underside of solar panels, to pick up radiation from under the panel.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-13 14:47:35

This post is primarily for Calliban, but contributions by other members are welcome.

This topic was set up to learn about and then to address the issue of energy imbalance that is currently reported for the Earth system.

It is reported (hopefully earlier in this topic) that the energy arriving at, or generated within, the Earth taken as a sphere including atmosphere, is greater than the outflow of radiation to the cosmos.

The (reported) result of this imbalance is the the total thermal energy of the Earth is increasing.

My impression (from multiple sources) is that it is generally thought that the Earth would be more comfortable for everyone if the energy balance might be maintained.

In an earlier post, SpaceNut commented upon the idea (also reported earlier) of placing reflective material on the surface of glaciers to direct Solar energy back to space. That might well be a solution if it were applied on a sufficiently large scale soon enough.

However, the voice of Calliban is ringing in my ears, reminding me that production of aluminum foil (as just one example) would generate vast amounts of thermal energy in order to refine the metal, to prepare it for use, and to distribute it over the surfaces to be protected.

Therefore, for Calliban, I offer a question of sufficient magnitude to potentially tax even his resources ...

Is there another way to transmit vast quantities of thermal energy from Earth to space?

(th)

louis · 2021-08-13 16:46:42

Generally been a pretty cool summer in the UK. Wouldn't want it any cooler thanks

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut .... there was no topic containing these three words.
The purpose of this topic is to provide a place for forum members to add to knowledge about the energy imbalance currently reported for the Earth, and to contribute to creative thinking about how to address it.
The inspiration for this topic comes from a combination of statements made in other topics about various energy collection methods, and reports of NASA studies showing that in recent times, the Earth has collected more energy from the Sun than it has radiated back to space.
It should be noted that the energy budget of the Earth includes radioactivity in the core, as well as burning of fossil fuels by humans and occasionally by Nature when fires occur.
I'm hoping that creative thinking will reveal ways to radiate excess energy to space, although as I launch this new topic, I have no idea what those ideas might be.
One thing I'm pretty sure of ... whoever comes up with ways of radiating excess energy to space, and thus restoring the energy balance of the planet, will deserve whatever accolades will be forthcoming.
(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-08-13 20:18:28

I would use the thermal blankets that are plastic Mylar film sputtered materials.

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-13 20:49:25

For SpaceNut re #9 .... Thanks for showing that neat blanket to Louis. He will need it for colder times in Great Britain, when the Atlantic Ocean flow stops, as it is already starting to do. (th)

Explained: Why the Atlantic Ocean current system is slowing ...https://indianexpress.com › Explained
3 days ago — A study published last week in Nature Climate Change notes that this circulation, known officially as the Atlantic Meridional Overturning ...

What happens if AMOC collapses?
Gulf Stream, a part of the AMOC, is a warm current responsible for mild climate at the Eastern coast of North America as well as Europe. Without a proper AMOC and Gulf Stream, Europe will be very cold.

https://indianexpress.com/article/expla … s-7445388/

There were several articles like this one. I chose this one because it specifically included the Europe Cooling prediction.

(th)

Calliban · 2021-08-16 03:36:34

tahanson43206 wrote:

Therefore, for Calliban, I offer a question of sufficient magnitude to potentially tax even his resources ...
Is there another way to transmit vast quantities of thermal energy from Earth to space?
(th)

I take it you mean radiating heat to space in a way that avoids it being intercepted and reradiated back to Earth by atmospheric greenhouse gases?

Cooling towers do this to a certain extent, by transferring large amounts of concentrated heat to air above the cooling tower. The warm air rises by convection and cools by radiation at high altitude, away from the moist air close to the ground. This partially shortcuts the radiative forcing effects of the atmosphere, which are dominated by water vapour at low altitude.

One thing to remember though is that at present, direct human generation of heat has a negligible impact on the biosphere. The problem is the changes we have introduced to the atmosphere and the effect that has on trapping solar heat, not direct human generation of heat. But even this is thin end of the stick as far as human impact on the Earth is concerned. The destruction of habitats and loss of species is an apocalypse for every other living thing on Earth. Where I live in England, there isn't a single square inch of land that looks the way it did before humans arrived. Most of the Earth surface has been heavily altered by human occupation. Why human effects on the atmosphere would be controversial idea is a mystery to me, given how evident human effects on the surface of the Earth are. Maybe it is because the sky appears so large and boundless to people standing on the ground?

I am of the opinion that the whole anti-science attitude of certain corners of the political right, have done a grave disservice to the movement as a whole. They seem to have a peculiar attitude to the whole subject of human induced climate change. They seem to think that because their political opponents have latched onto the idea for their own reasons, therefore it MUST be a hoax. Therefore, everything about it must be a made up conspiracy that should be undermined at every opportunity. But science doesn't work like that. The truth doesn't change just because you want it to. The simple truth that human induced atmospheric warming is real to at least some extent and that their political opponents have hijacked it for less than decent reasons. But this simple logical truism appears to have gone over the heads of majority of people on the political right. They are inconsistent with their arguments. Some insist that human action has nothing to do with rising CO2 levels. Others will say that CO2 has little effect on atmospheric temperature and will attribute rising temperatures to changes in solar flux. Others will say that rising CO2 levels are a good thing.

The more sane and sensible view would be that it is certainty that human induced climate change is real to some extent, given that basic physics underpins it. But some of the wackiest proposals of the far left aimed at mitigating it (like mass production of solar panels) are not an effective or cost effective way of mitigating whatever risks human effects have introduced. But that sort of subtle logic appears to be lost on most of these people. It pisses me off to be honest, because it means that real opportunities are missed in bringing the left to account for the genuinely insane things that they are pushing on us, things that would not stand up to any competent analysis, if anyone on the right took their tin helmets off long enough to realise it.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-08-16 04:03:07)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-16 06:08:34

For Calliban re #11

This post is reserved for comments after study of #11

My first impression is that the content deserves a careful reading.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-08-16 19:16:48

I think the amount of energy to reflect was only 25% of the received energy at the surface for a square meter or just 250 watts.
So to get that at the poles requires and even larger square meter of reflecting area to achieve that drop in energy due to earths curvature and angle for seasons.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-11-12 10:20:40

Early results from a team of researchers in China have confirmed that an unusual method of achieving fusion will work. Lead researcher Zhang Zhe predicts a new generation of large-scale laser facilities will be finished or near completion in China by 2026
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science … sion-power
The research team has conducted three tests so far, with another scheduled for next month, and encountered some unexpected challenges. But initial results suggest the theory works and part of the findings were published last week in domestic peer-reviewed journal Acta Physica Sinica.
“Our goal is to achieve sustainable fusion,” Zhang said in a phone interview on Tuesday. For power generation, “the cones can be mass-produced and loaded as bullets in a machine that will rotate and fire like a Gatling gun”.
The race to fusion power heated up in August, when researchers with the US National Ignition Facility (NIF) achieved an energy output eight times greater than ever before. While the output was still lower than the energy input, the breakthrough gave hope as well as added pressure to research teams in other countries, including China.

tahanson43206 · 2021-11-12 11:00:04

For Mars_B4_Moon re #14

Thanks for posting this interesting report!

SearchTerm:Fusion Chinese bullets laser

For Mars_B4_Moon ... if you have a free moment, can you (would you?) try to find out what kind of fuel the Chinese are proposing?

The market for Deuterium will improve if fusion will become practical, but only if Deuterium is a major component of whatever solution is found.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-11-12 12:27:17

Tahanson
I believe NIF used lasers to heat and attempt to compress a small amount of hydrogen fuel so perhaps the Chinese were doing similar. Howeevr some other tech might be happening so I could be ignorant and I haven't seen many other reports on this recent news story.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-11-12 12:27:50)

tahanson43206 · 2021-11-12 15:04:09

For Mars_B4_Moon ... thank you for your reply, and for your original post ....

If you happen to run across more information about the Chinese efforts, there is a good chance more than one forum member would appreciate the updates.

You are right about the lab in the US .... their monster laser pellet pounder is making progress but it is still not at break-even.

The Chinese are probably doing something similar. I'm glad to see a race between institutions (and Nations) at this level, because fusion is a ** big ** problem and we need players at that level to advance the state of knowledge.

Calliban has described interesting hybrid ideas, which (as I recall) feature fission reactors intertwined with fission ones to achieve productivity neither could achieve separately.

While I'm thinking about it, thanks for all the contributions you've made bringing old topics back to light and adding new content.

(th)

louis · 2021-11-12 16:24:57

When you've lived throughout your life hearing "Fusion Breakthrough Within 20 Years" you get a bit cynical about the potential. Someone's going to crack it eventually but maybe not for 50 years!

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Mars_B4_Moon ... thank you for your reply, and for your original post ....
If you happen to run across more information about the Chinese efforts, there is a good chance more than one forum member would appreciate the updates.
You are right about the lab in the US .... their monster laser pellet pounder is making progress but it is still not at break-even.
The Chinese are probably doing something similar. I'm glad to see a race between institutions (and Nations) at this level, because fusion is a ** big ** problem and we need players at that level to advance the state of knowledge.
Calliban has described interesting hybrid ideas, which (as I recall) feature fission reactors intertwined with fission ones to achieve productivity neither could achieve separately.
While I'm thinking about it, thanks for all the contributions you've made bringing old topics back to light and adding new content.
(th)

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#1 2021-06-30 14:10:43

Global Energy Balance

#2 2021-06-30 15:50:35

Re: Global Energy Balance

#3 2021-06-30 15:58:03

Re: Global Energy Balance

#4 2021-07-06 05:58:06

Re: Global Energy Balance

#5 2021-07-06 20:21:01

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#6 2021-07-06 21:30:59

Re: Global Energy Balance

#7 2021-08-13 14:47:35

Re: Global Energy Balance

#8 2021-08-13 16:46:42

Re: Global Energy Balance

#9 2021-08-13 20:18:28

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#10 2021-08-13 20:49:25

Re: Global Energy Balance

#11 2021-08-16 03:36:34

Re: Global Energy Balance

#12 2021-08-16 06:08:34

Re: Global Energy Balance

#13 2021-08-16 19:16:48

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#14 2021-11-12 10:20:40

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#15 2021-11-12 11:00:04

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#16 2021-11-12 12:27:17

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#17 2021-11-12 15:04:09

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#18 2021-11-12 16:24:57

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