Dry stone walls?

louis · 2021-08-13 08:33:17

I would say this video by Joe White is pretty convincing about what look like dry stone walls. Certainly something that needs further examination:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NX_5uBhBcM

kbd512 · 2021-08-13 08:44:23

Louis,

It's just a rock outcropping. Sometimes rocks have odd shapes. The brain interprets what the eye sees, thus the brain sees what it wants to see.

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-13 14:15:10

For Louis ... your topic here seems perfect for development as a building method on Mars. Dry stone walls have been constructed on Earth for thousands of years, and many are still standing. The skills of a stone mason (if that is the right term) would seem (to me at least) well worth cultivating for applications on Mars.

While Mars certainly does provide plenty of challenges, the forces that would destroy stone walls on Earth will NOT be present on Mars.

Please considering redirecting your energies toward a productive use of this topic.

There are surely many examples of successful terrestrial architecture based upon dry stone stacking that you can research and then present here in an organized manner for the benefit of future Mars settlers who would otherwise have to search the Internet for the same material.

(th)

louis · 2021-08-13 15:05:59

You could probably develop computer programmes for robotic stone handlers to choose the right stone. Obviously not much good for a pressurised environment. But as a protective environment for an interior inflatable, it might work. Some of these stone structures have lasted for thousands of years on Earth.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Louis ... your topic here seems perfect for development as a building method on Mars. Dry stone walls have been constructed on Earth for thousands of years, and many are still standing. The skills of a stone mason (if that is the right term) would seem (to me at least) well worth cultivating for applications on Mars.
While Mars certainly does provide plenty of challenges, the forces that would destroy stone walls on Earth will NOT be present on Mars.
Please considering redirecting your energies toward a productive use of this topic.
There are surely many examples of successful terrestrial architecture based upon dry stone stacking that you can research and then present here in an organized manner for the benefit of future Mars settlers who would otherwise have to search the Internet for the same material.
(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-13 15:48:27

For Louis re #3 of topic on Stone Walls

First, thank you for noting that ** I ** could write a program to stack stones. That would in fact be a useful program, both here on Earth, and certainly on Mars or elsewhere in the solar system.

However, I'm interested in finding out what ** you ** would be willing to invest your limited time in ...

Inviting ** me ** to assume responsibility for ** your ** idea is something you have been doing as long as I have been here.

Please consider a course of action that leads to a favorable result that does NOT require **me** to do work to advance your idea.

We have Sagan City 2018 in a modest state of development as My Hacienda, but beyond initial ideas, you have contributed nothing to advance the project. In fact, if I recall correctly, you very specifically washed your hands of it.

You have created an interesting new topic here, and it has significant potential value for future residents of Mars.

(th)

louis · 2021-08-13 16:44:43

Did you watch the whole video?

You could be right. They could all be rocky outcrops. I'm not saying that's impossible.

But if so, then there seems far less lateral and colour continuity than we see on Earth in the vast majority of rocky outcrops on our planet.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=rocky … ej5ryA710M

The pictures from Mars show a lot more discontinuity and the appearance of debris. The scene would be consistent with something like this sort of structure having collapsed:

https://kefaloniapulse.homeinkefalonia. … f-tzannata

There is also the issue that the rocky outcrops seen from statellite images appear consistent with structures rather than random outcrops. You get this sort of effect where buildings have collapsed - lines of stones:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Col … _342521871

Also take the stones at 07:46. The stones there might all be from a similar type of stone but the colouration of the central top stone appears much darker than the one to the left. I'm not seeing those sorts of discontinuities in the cracked rocky outcrops.

The straight edge of the "doorway" is unusual if not impossible in rocky outcrops.

I think to simply say "rocky outcrops" is not good enough in the absence of examination of such locations by human beings. I hope to live to see geologists and archeologists examine such places in person.

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,
It's just a rock outcropping. Sometimes rocks have odd shapes. The brain interprets what the eye sees, thus the brain sees what it wants to see.

louis · 2021-08-14 06:34:19

First brush up on your grammar. You has two meanings:

"pronoun: you

1.
used to refer to the person or people that the speaker is addressing.
"are you listening?"
used to refer to the person being addressed together with other people regarded in the same class.
"you Americans"
used in exclamations to address one or more people.
"you fools"
West Indian
your.
"I didn't know that was you nickname"
2.
used to refer to any person in general.
"after a while, you get used to it""

I was using it in the second sense which includes, well, you in the first sense, of course.

My time is limited. I always assume people who criticise others have time on their hands.

I am simply interested in whether there was ancient life/civilisation on Mars. It seems unlikely perhaps but on the other hand there have been some very anomalous images from Mars. So I maintain an open mind.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Louis re #3 of topic on Stone Walls
First, thank you for noting that ** I ** could write a program to stack stones. That would in fact be a useful program, both here on Earth, and certainly on Mars or elsewhere in the solar system.
However, I'm interested in finding out what ** you ** would be willing to invest your limited time in ...
Inviting ** me ** to assume responsibility for ** your ** idea is something you have been doing as long as I have been here.
Please consider a course of action that leads to a favorable result that does NOT require **me** to do work to advance your idea.
We have Sagan City 2018 in a modest state of development as My Hacienda, but beyond initial ideas, you have contributed nothing to advance the project. In fact, if I recall correctly, you very specifically washed your hands of it.
You have created an interesting new topic here, and it has significant potential value for future residents of Mars.
(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-14 07:17:07

For Louis ...

Glad to know you have a grammar reference close at hand!

For a writer such as yourself, that is an essential tool.

While I understand the original motivation for creating the topic, I am attempting to persuade you to enlarge the scope to anticipate and to prepare for the practical application of dry stone stacking as a useful technique for Mars.

Mortar is a useful material for securing stone structures, but it is not needed for many applications.

Your suggestion that someone other than yourself should write a computer program to stack stones on Mars is a good one. I am merely pointing out that someone other than yourself has to do the work of bringing your ideas forward.

You are skilled in writing, and (I believe) could write prose that would attract young people who can write the kind of very sophisticated 3D shape evaluation and placement (and shaping to a minor extent) code that is needed. Hardware has most definitely reached the point it can be harnessed for such an application. I keep in touch with developments in the field, so may be able to provide hardware suggestions when someone is ready for them.

You live in one of the world's major cities, and you are surrounded by educational institutions where programming at the required level is taught.

The methods that would be needed on Mars for your suggestion to be applied there are just as applicable here on Earth, and therefore it is (I think) reasonable to suppose income earning opportunities may be available.

This forum has opened a Portal for admission of individuals who are interested in making a substantial contribution to the Mars endeavor. You have skills that might be successful in attracting one or more individuals to help ** you ** (individual) to achieve something in the ** real world ** that you could point to with pride in your golden years.

All that said, best wishes for success with this interesting topic, however things turn out.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-08-14 08:17:05

Yes but pictures are worth thousand of words and they will be interpreted by a human brain to see faces and other objects in our environment that we have learned.
Just look at an automobile head on an you will see shapes of animals based on the nose shape and lenses for the head lights and grill just to say we see things on mars from a distant war is not really going to cut it...

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-14 08:34:59

For Louis ....

I asked Google if there are any companies that already are using software to set stones ...

The results are not yet clear ... here is a web site that seems to imply it may be oriented in that direction

https://chameleonpower.com/stone.aspx

it is possible the software is designed primarily to simulate what stone surfaces might look like. It is entirely possible the details of stone selection and placement are left to the artisan.

However, the direction I am hoping you will decide to take this topic is away from the customer view and toward development of the artisan in robotic form who will be able to select stones from an assortment, shape them as needed, and fit them into a solid wall, arch or other structure.

An early need is for cairns to mark roadways on Mars. The people you (hopefully) enlist can be invited to design 3D/Vision/Robotic systems able to create long lasting cairns of varying sizes, from a meter at minimum to ten meters or more.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-08-14 10:36:29

The camera system for ingenuity does surface recognition so as to tell that its moving so its possible for features to be controlled from this system.

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-14 10:59:36

For SpaceNut re #11

Thanks for picking up on the potential of Louis' new topic!

The suggestion of considering Ingenuity's camera system is insightful! The vision system for a stone mason robot should be binocular, and there is no reason at all why the binocular system has to be confined to a "head" shape. Science fiction writers have been visualizing eyes on stalks for many years, and on Earth there are numerous species of critter that have eyes on stalks.

A successful stone mason robot will have multiple appendages for mobility and for manipulation of objects.

Whoever designs such a system will indeed have mastered the art.

As it happens, new member Captain Torriani (CaptJTorriani) is in fact studying robotics at his university in Mexico.

We have not heard from Captain Torriani in a while, and I hope his studies are going well.

A Stone Mason robot for Mars would surely find employment on Earth.

Such a robot would be a logical candidate for modern AI pattern matching and learning neural networks, to become capable of performing the millions of data point calculations that are performed unconsciously by human neural networks.

Edit 15:10 local time ... The Swiss seem to have begun to explore this topic a bit ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXz52KMGUng

Autonomous Robotic Stone Stacking with Online next Best Object Target Pose Planning
27,340 viewsSep 23, 2016

The demonstration above definitely shows the direction to look. On the other hand, the missing element is modification of the stones to fit the desired architecture. Far more computing power is needed to hold in memory the shapes that are available, in addition to the desired end state.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-15 17:56:07

Here's another web site that appears to be doing (or reporting on) stone stacking research...

https://www.research-collection.ethz.ch … 850/254909

Autonomous robotic stone stacking with online next best object target pose planning

Download
Full text (accepted version) (PDF, 3.735Mb)
Rights / license
In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted
Permanent link
https://doi.org/10.3929/ethz-a-010870003
Publication status
published
External links
https://doi.org/10.1109/ICRA.2017.7989272
Book title
Proceedings of the 2017 IEEE International Conference on Robotics and Automation (ICRA)
Pages / Article No.
2350 - 2356
Publisher
IEEE
Event
International Conference on Robotics and Automation (ICRA 2017), Singapore, May 29 - June 3, 2017

The title is so similar to the citation in post #12 I wonder if the two are the same.

However, the current post contains a link to a pdf file about the research.

(th)

kbd512 · 2021-08-15 21:03:35

We'll obviously be able to figure out what this is when we go there.

SpaceNut · 2021-08-15 21:56:15

If a claim to property requires a stone wall we had better get it right or there will be lots of false claims... A robotic rock wall pile seems to fit the bill if we can keep it powered and not breaking down as it makes the borders of the property well defined.

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#1 2021-08-13 08:33:17

Dry stone walls?

#2 2021-08-13 08:44:23

Re: Dry stone walls?

#3 2021-08-13 14:15:10

Re: Dry stone walls?

#4 2021-08-13 15:05:59

Re: Dry stone walls?

#5 2021-08-13 15:48:27

Re: Dry stone walls?

#6 2021-08-13 16:44:43

Re: Dry stone walls?

#7 2021-08-14 06:34:19

Re: Dry stone walls?

#8 2021-08-14 07:17:07

Re: Dry stone walls?

#9 2021-08-14 08:17:05

Re: Dry stone walls?

#10 2021-08-14 08:34:59

Re: Dry stone walls?

#11 2021-08-14 10:36:29

Re: Dry stone walls?

#12 2021-08-14 10:59:36

Re: Dry stone walls?

#13 2021-08-15 17:56:07

Re: Dry stone walls?

#14 2021-08-15 21:03:35

Re: Dry stone walls?

#15 2021-08-15 21:56:15

Re: Dry stone walls?

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