Electric Airplane

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-05 13:50:32

SpaceNut ... there was only one topic with "airplane" in the title, and that was yours for Venus

This post is for Earth, but considering the success of Ingenuity, it might well work on Mars.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/one-per … 00708.html

Courtesy Opener, LLC
Blackfly’s motors and batteries were all designed in house. “The proprietary propulsion system includes the most powerful motors in the world for their size,” Leng said.
Blackfly flew four times at Oshkosh. Each time, it took off, flew a few hundred yards over a grassy area between the runways, and then returned to the original spot, landing gently on its keel, before tilting to one side

For SpaceNut .... I couldn't help noticing the similarity of this design to your expressed concept for a road vehicle.

If the range is sufficient to carry you from home to work and back, it might be a solution to commuting.

You don't need a pilot's license, according to the article.

(th)

Calliban · 2021-08-13 08:41:25

No doubt it would be cumbersome in practice, but I wonder if something like this could be used to power an aircraft?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas_generator

I would propose using charcoal rather than raw biomass. This can be sustained at very high temperatures in an insulated, pressurised retort and fed a mixture of compressed air and water vapour. The resulting gas that emerges will be a mixture of nitrogen, hydrogen, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide. This could be burned in spark ignition piston engines to generate power.

The energy density of the retort and charcoal based fuel would be only half that of kerosene, but 10 times better than battery electric power. As a biofuel, the biomass derived charcoal is a net-zero fuel.

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-13 13:23:39

For Calliban re #3

This idea may well have merit, and I hope it receives support in another topic.

Please leave it here as a reminder of what NOT to insert into this topic. Instead, just copy it and select a more appropriate topic.

There is no way that I can think of to stretch this interesting idea so it fits in a topic about all-electric aircraft.

For future posters .... there is a LOT going on (on Earth in 2021) in the field of electric powered aircraft.

This topic is set up to provide an appropriate dedicated location for posts about all those efforts.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-09-19 16:35:05

Rolls-Royce's all-electric aircraft completes 15-minute maiden voyage

The aircraft uses a 6,000 cell battery pack with a three-motor powertrain that currently delivers 400kW (500-plus horsepower), and Rolls-Royce said the aircraft will eventually achieve speeds of over 300 MPH.
Weight is a much bigger problem for airplanes that it is for cars, however. Ford's all-electric Lightning pickup weighs 1,800 pounds more than the gas-powered model, and offers a range that's slightly under half. However, if you added 1,800 pounds to to a Cessna 206 Turbo Stationair, you'd exceed its useful load by 500 pounds before you even loaded passengers (or the pilot) — so it wouldn't even get off the ground.

Calliban · 2021-09-30 14:31:11

Back in the early 50s, the Fairey aviation company in the UK, invented something called the Fairy Rotodyne. It was a large passenger autogyro. The idea was to use it for short range intercity transportation. It failed miserably when the British government did what it always does. Provide limited funding, develop something that works and then cut funding and let it flounder before it is commercialised.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Rotodyne

Maybe instead of electric aeroplanes, there would be a limited market for large, double bladed, electric passenger helicopters. These could transport a hundred people at a time from suburban commuter towns into large cities. This is a journey of say 20-100 miles, but is often slow due to gridlocked roads and overcrowded trains. The distance is short enough that the limited energy density of batteries can be tolerated. And an electric helicopter like this, does not need runways, so can takeoff and land from fields or even the tops of buildings. Maybe a niche market that an electric helicopter could fill, especially at peak travel times when wealthy city workers may be willing to pay a premium.

For long-distance transportation, it is difficult to see an application for battery electric aircraft of any kind. The limiting factor is the low energy density of batteries. Range is a function of the mass energy density of the fuel you are carrying.
Diesel gets 42MJ/kg and is burned in gas turbines that are 40% efficient. Li-ion batteries get around 1MJ/kg and DC motors are around 80-90% efficient. So realistically, you have about 1/20th the mass energy density of a gas turbine burning jet fuel and therefore 1/20th the range, all else being equal. An electric engine doesn't need any air intake, which is a big source of drag. There may be some millage in optimising the aerodynamic shape of the plane and putting a streamlined propulsor in the tail.

But non-electric options are worth considering as well. Gas turbines use around half of their fuel energy compressing the incoming air stream. And engines and pylons add shed loads of drag. How about a plane with a LOX tank feeding a tail mounted engine with a turboprop propulsor? The fuel could be normal jet fuel, gasoline, or LPG or LNG. Hydrogen is an option.

In the near term, there is value in exploring the possibility of converting existing jet aircraft designs to run off of different fuels. Gas turbines can tolerate a range of different fuel inputs if the burners are properly designed. A 747 could be converted to run of off LPG, for example. This is cheaper than diesel and has a greater mass energy density, which would allow either greater range or greater payload margins. Shale oil is producing more NGLs than the US knows what to do with. In the future, we may have less diesel and more gasoline and LPG. The LNG market is growing as well. Natural gas is more abundant than oil and LNG provides a way of distributing it globally.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-09-30 14:56:16)

SpaceNut · 2021-09-30 19:33:49

Honda is working on electric and hybrid eVTOL helicopters, designed with passengers sitting in a pod suspended below eight propellers. On pure electricity the Honda hopper can go 100 miles.

SpaceNut · 2021-11-19 15:42:25

Here is another first for Rolls-Royce says its all-electric aircraft is the world's fastest after it tops 387 mph

To this end, it will be submitting three claims for world records to the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale. These are: the aircraft hitting a top speed of 555.9 km/h over 3 kilometers; reaching 532.1 km/h across 15 kilometers; and climbing to 3,000 meters in 202 seconds.
According to Rolls-Royce, the airplane uses a 400-kilowatt electric powertrain "and the most power-dense propulsion battery pack ever assembled in aerospace." In September, it completed its maiden flight, soaring across skies in the U.K. for around 15 minutes.

SpaceNut · 2021-11-25 16:44:27

Battery-powered airplanes, the next phase of green transportation

50% of the take off mass is batteries...

EMBEDFullPlane-hy-abc-20211122_1637609124736_hpEmbed_4x3_992.jpg

So we can expect to see fast charge stations for the planes at the air fields.

There would also be a demand for on air recharging from larger planes much the same as the boom refueling that is done by the air force...

While not a long distance plane, 440 miles fits the needs of many regional airlines around the world. Charging the plane will be similar to charging a Tesla. While passengers are boarding, the plane will be plugged in and able to do most of a flight off of just a 30 minute charge.

Calliban · 2021-11-25 16:58:51

A 440 mile range is further than I would have expected. OK for London to Paris. Or inland flights in most countries. Electric planes can have lower air resistance, because the engines are not air breathing. But the appallingly poor energy density of electrochemical batteries prevents this from being useful for long range applications.

One other point of concern would be power requirements of charging the battery in just 30 minutes. We have talked about the problems of fast charging batteries before. A grid capable of meeting those spikes in power demand would need a lot of open exhaust gas turbines. So why not put the gas turbine in the plane instead, like we already do?

I strongly suspect that flying is a fossil fuel optimised activity. There just isn't anything else with sufficient energy density for the job. Or at least nothing that people would tolerate flying over their heads.

SpaceNut · 2022-01-22 13:18:06

Batteries are still on the upward swing of Ampere hr's for mass density and with a simple chemistry change we may find even higher than what we are using currently.
Of course hand in hand with that is how hot will the internal construction get when demanding that level of current as that is when we see them breakdown....

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-04-22 06:38:34

Ultra-light liquid hydrogen tanks promise to make jet fuel obsolete

https://newatlas.com/aircraft/hypoint-g … ogen-tank/

tahanson43206 · 2022-04-22 10:36:27

This is a follow up to Post #15 by Mars_B4_Moon

Thank you for providing the link to this report!

https://newatlas.com/aircraft/hypoint-g … ogen-tank/

AIRCRAFT
Ultra-light liquid hydrogen tanks promise to make jet fuel obsolete
By Loz Blain
April 21, 2022
Facebook
HyPoint and GTL are developing ultra-lightweight cryogenic hydrogen tanks that the partnership promises will radiacally boost the range of clean hydrogen-electric aircraft
Gloyer-Taylor Laboratories
A revolutionary cryogenic tank design promises to radically boost the range of hydrogen-powered aircraft – to the point where clean, fuel-cell airliners could fly up to four times farther than comparable planes running on today's dirty jet fuel.

Weight is the enemy of all things aerospace – indeed, hydrogen's superior energy storage per weight is what makes it such an attractive alternative to lithium batteries in the aviation world. We've written before about HyPoint's turbo air-cooled fuel cell technology, but its key differentiator in the aviation market is its enormous power density compared with traditional fuel cells. For its high power output, it's extremely lightweight.
Now, it seems HyPoint has found a similarly-minded partner that's making similar claims on the fuel storage side. Tennessee company Gloyer-Taylor Laboratories (GTL) has been working for many years now on developing ultra-lightweight cryogenic tanks made from graphite fiber composites, among other materials.
GTL claims it's built and tested several cryogenic tanks demonstrating an enormous 75 percent mass reduction as compared with "state-of-the-art aerospace cryotanks (metal or composite)." The company says they've tested leak-tight, even through several cryo-thermal pressure cycles, and that these tanks are at a Technology Readiness Level (TRL) of 6+, where TRL 6 represents a technology that's been verified at a beta prototype level in an operational environment.

HyPoint's lab validation prototype for its turbo air-cooled fuel cell
HyPoint's lab validation prototype for its turbo air-cooled fuel cellHyPoint
This kind of weight reduction makes an enormous difference when you're dealing with a fuel like liquid hydrogen, which weighs so little in its own right. To put this in context, ZeroAvia's Val Miftakhov told us in 2020 that for a typical compressed-gas hydrogen tank, the typical mass fraction (how much the fuel contributes to the weight of a full tank) was only 10-11 percent. Every kilogram of hydrogen, in other words, needs about 9 kg of tank hauling it about.
Liquid hydrogen, said Miftakhov at the time, could conceivably allow hydrogen planes to beat regular kerosene jets on range.

"Even at a 30-percent mass fraction, which is relatively achievable in liquid hydrogen storage, you'd have the utility of a hydrogen system higher than a jet fuel system on a per-kilogram basis," he said.
GTL claims the 2.4-m-long, 1.2-m-diameter (7.9-ft-long, 3.9-ft-diameter) cryotank pictured at the top of this article weighs just 12 kg (26.5 lb). With a skirt and "vacuum dewar shell" added, the total weight is 67 kg (148 lb). And it can hold over 150 kg (331 lb) of hydrogen. That's a mass fraction of nearly 70 percent, leaving plenty of spare weight for cryo-cooling gear, pumps and whatnot even while maintaining a total system mass fraction over 50 percent.
If it does what it says on the tin, this promises to be massively disruptive. At a mass fraction of over 50 percent, HyPoint says it will enable clean aircraft to fly four times as far as a comparable aircraft running on jet fuel, while cutting operating costs by an estimated 50 percent on a dollar-per-passenger-mile basis – and completely eliminating carbon emissions.
HyPoint gives the example of a typical De Havilland Canada Dash-8 Q300, which flies 50-56 passengers about 1,558 km (968 miles) on jet fuel. Retrofitted with a fuel cell powertrain and a GTL composite tank, the same plane could fly up to 4,488 km (2,789 miles).
"That's the difference between this plane going from New York to Chicago with high carbon emissions versus New York to San Francisco with zero carbon emissions," said HyPoint co-founder Sergei Shubenkov in a press release.
There's not a sector in the aviation world that shouldn't be pricking up its ears at this news. From electric VTOLs to full-size intercontinental airliners, there aren't a lot of operators that wouldn't want to dramatically boost flight range, reduce costs, eliminate carbon emissions or simply just reduce weight to increase cargo or passenger capacity.

It won't be simple – there's a ton of work to be done yet on green hydrogen production, transport and logistics, not to mention developing these tanks and aircraft fuel cells to the point where they're airworthy, certified and well-enough tested to be considered a no-brainer. But with these kinds of numbers on the table as carrots, and the aviation sector's enormous emissions profile acting as a stick, these tanks should surely get a chance to prove themselves.
Source: HyPoint/GTL

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-04-22 20:02:03

Since you can use the ram intake to get all of the oxygen you want from the super chiller effect from the liquid hydrogen the mix of lox and lh2 would mean a fly as fast as the inlet will allow. You are not carrying a full load of oxygen but are processing it as you go instead. That makes the plane lighter as it does not have to carry both fuel components. Its that mass ration that is the killer normally.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-06-13 07:04:18

NASA Wants Its All-Electric Plane to Transform How We Fly
https://www.yahoo.com/video/nasa-wants- … 32118.html

Moscow deploys planes and electronic jamming as it ‘throws everything’ at battle for Donbas
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/ … ng-battle/

Netherlands committed to achieve hydrogen passenger flights to London by 2028

https://nltimes.nl/2022/06/13/netherlan … ondon-2028

Airbus to study hydrogen infrastructure with Japanese airport operator

https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transp … 51.article

New Zealand's first hydrogen trucks hit the road. The Hyundais will be followed by 20 Hyzon trucks, which are expected to be delivering cargo by early next year.
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/sustainable- … he-asphalt

Washington State University, Nissan researchers develop SOFC with reforming catalyst for direct ethanol feed operation
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2022/0 … ssofc.html
Volvo Construction testing world’s first prototype hydrogen hauler
Melbourne and Sydney getting more hydrogen refueling stations.

tahanson43206 · 2023-10-12 06:23:12

The post by kbd512 at the link below includes discussion of a proposal for a battery powered fixed wing aircraft for Mars.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 44#p214744

The aircraft would be quite large and would only carry one or at most two people, but apparently it could have a 1200 mile range.

kbd512 proposed some changes.

This topic is available if anyone has time to add detail, and perhaps some images.

One suggestion I would have is to fill the huge wing cavity with helium, if it's available. It won't lift the plane by itself, but it will help to offset some of the weight to be overcome by the underpowered engines.

(th)

Calliban · 2023-10-27 07:02:52

This article concerns the Celera 500l.
https://interestingengineering.com/inno … y-aviation

The egg shaped air frame allows laminar flow. The wings are also optimised for lift, whilst reducing drag by putting fuel tanks in the fuselage. Drag is further minimised by propelling the plane using a single pusher prop in the tail. They claim an 80% reduction in fuel consumption.

One thing I did notice is that maintaining laminar conditions requires keeping speed low - <460mph. None the less, I wonder if this concept could be scaled up to produce large passenger jets. If fuel consumption per passenger-mile could be reduced by a third or even half, it effectively ensures that aviation will not be disrupted by oil supply problems in the near future.

A plane that achieves an optimised lift-drag ratio, may allow electric aeroplanes to make inroads into short haul flight. I am sceptical of the idea of an electric aeroplane. There are just too many problems with the idea. The low energy density of batteries, fire issues in the event of short circuit, the weight of motors, the time it takes to charge on the ground, battery metal resource issues, transmission problems, etc. Suffice to say there are problems with the idea. But an optimised airframe would definitely help inch it closer to practicality, if only in niche applications.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-10-27 07:10:43)

tahanson43206 · 2023-10-28 13:39:12

The web site at the link below is about "electric" remote controlled helicopter devices (ie, drones).

The list of principles on the About page looks like a Who's Who from MIT.

The connection of this post to the theme of the topic is remote at best, but if our readers are tolerant, they may find the web site interesting.

I'm more than happy to see this post copied to another more suitable topic, if there is one.

https://www.skydio.com/

(th)

kbd512 · 2023-10-28 14:41:02

tahanson43206,

I removed all of my posts because I was going all over the place and not really sticking to the theme of this topic. Some of it was at least partially related, but I created a more generalist flight topic to discuss electric and gasoline powered aircraft. Anyway, sorry about that.

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#1 2021-08-05 13:50:32

Electric Airplane

#2 2021-08-13 08:41:25

Re: Electric Airplane

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Re: Electric Airplane

#4 2021-09-19 16:35:05

Re: Electric Airplane

#5 2021-09-30 14:31:11

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#6 2021-09-30 19:33:49

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#7 2021-11-19 15:42:25

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#8 2021-11-25 16:44:27

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#9 2021-11-25 16:58:51

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#10 2022-01-22 13:18:06

Re: Electric Airplane

#11 2022-04-22 06:38:34

Re: Electric Airplane

#12 2022-04-22 10:36:27

Re: Electric Airplane

#13 2022-04-22 20:02:03

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#14 2022-06-13 07:04:18

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#15 2023-10-12 06:23:12

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#16 2023-10-27 07:02:52

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