Electric powered engines.

pootechie · 2003-08-15 23:51:06

and this was demonstrated to companies like boeing, so i wouldn't be a critic right away

HA! I know quite a few Boeing engineers, and wouldnt put too much faith in their good name. Dont get me wrong... they've got lots of smart people and money on their side, but let me put it this way: DILBERT IS REAL and Philip M. Condit has pointy hair.

space_psibrain · 2003-08-16 01:45:12

And I've worked under quite a few for the International Space Settlement Design Competition...

RobertDyck · 2003-08-20 00:44:02

I just got back from the conference in Eugene. Those who didn't go missed a great conference. I got a chance to talk to Dr. Robert Zubrin about a few things; one was the nuclear/VASIMR idea. He didn't think it would work. He pointed out that radiation from fission only extends a tiny distance (did he say millimeters?) before it is slowed by the nuclear material and its energy converted to heat. He didn't see a practical way to convert the radiation directly to electromagnetic. He did say fusion does create radiation which can be used that way, but if you got fusion to work you could use the products of fusion directly for thrust. He just smiled while the rest of us talked about the impracticality of getting fusion to work soon.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-08-20 20:30:08

Robert writes:-

He just smiled while the rest of us talked about the impracticality of getting fusion to work soon.

Robert! You shouldn't go around saying things like that in the company of conspiracy theorists with tendencies toward paranoia!

Now you've got me visualising Dr. Zubrin's face with an enigmatic smile on his lips, as though he knows something important about fusion development that he's not at liberty to tell the rest of us!
Things like this are enough to push people over the edge you know!!!

[Well?!! ... Do you think he does know something he's not telling?]

Palomar · 2003-08-21 09:53:00

Robert writes:-
He just smiled while the rest of us talked about the impracticality of getting fusion to work soon.
Robert! You shouldn't go around saying things like that in the company of conspiracy theorists with tendencies toward paranoia!

Now you've got me visualising Dr. Zubrin's face with an enigmatic smile on his lips, as though he knows something important about fusion development that he's not at liberty to tell the rest of us!
Things like this are enough to push people over the edge you know!!!

[Well?!! ... Do you think he does know something he's not telling?]

*Maybe it's the old "I could tell you...but then I'd have to kill you" situation.

You wouldn't want that, now would you Shaun??

--Cindy

P.S.: I'm beginning to wonder if the time machine has been invented and Robert Dyck is really Mr. Spock, come back in time to kick space exploration into high gear. Live long and prosper, Robert? Does that ring a bell? Do you always wear hats, and if so...should we be extra suspicious?

RobertDyck · 2003-08-21 11:00:49

You shouldn't go around saying things like that in the company of conspiracy theorists with tendencies toward paranoia!
Now you've got me visualising Dr. Zubrin's face with an enigmatic smile on his lips, as though he knows something important about fusion development that he's not at liberty to tell the rest of us!
Things like this are enough to push people over the edge you know!!!
[Well?!! ... Do you think he does know something he's not telling?]

Ok, I shortened my report of the conversation. After we chatted a while Robert Zubrin did say that fusion research has been funded by dribs and drabs, and dragged out over too many years. He feels that fusion research could have produced a workable power plant if they were given a lot of money for just a few years. I suppose government funding would end once the first commercial power plant is ready for construction. Whether that is true is open for debate. I'm not counting on fusion propulsion to get us to Mars.

RobertDyck · 2003-08-21 11:15:23

I'm beginning to wonder if the time machine has been invented and Robert Dyck is really Mr. Spock, come back in time to kick space exploration into high gear. Live long and prosper, Robert? Does that ring a bell? Do you always wear hats, and if so...should we be extra suspicious?

Actually, Star Trek was my favourite TV program when I was growing up and Mr. Spock was my favourite character; I identified most with him.

Then again, I did meet a lady at a science fiction/fantasy convention who claims to be a space alien whose consciousness is inhabiting the body of an Earth woman who briefly died in an accident. She claimed I am one of her species and that my destiny/assignment is to colonize Mars and use the resources there to build an interplanetary space armada to defend Earth from attack by the other interstellar space aliens. The second aliens noticed Earth after the first aliens sent a survey mission. The war ships of the second aliens are on their way, we have limited number of years to build the fleet to defend Earth! It's my responsibility to colonize Mars ASAP! (Ok, she was drunk and sitting on my lap...)

Now back to reality. I have wanted to create an aerospace company to conduct real development of flight hardware. I wanted to do this since I was a child watching the Apollo program from Apollo 1 through Apollo 17, Skylab, and Apollo-Soyuz. I am starting to bid on NASA contracts, but getting them to take me seriously is an on-going effort. If I sound technical it is because I am trying to be the equal to NASA engineers and contractors like Lockheed-Martin or Boeing.

prometheusunbound · 2003-08-21 11:52:59

Mr Spoc. . .no wait, RobertDyck, how do you feel about orion? I read the book but the pusher plate design bothers me as I have not yet read a solution to the event were as a bomb doesn't fire. When the bomb doesn't fire, there is nothing to stop the plate from releasing itself from the ship. Nukes are not as reliable as they are made up to be, as we have only exploded two (at least to my knowledge) in operational conditions of any sort. I doubt that it will ever be lanched from earth, but I do believe if it is possible then someday colonists will make their own to move asteroids around, as I can't imagine what else to use all that power for.

She claimed I am one of her species and that my destiny/assignment is to colonize Mars and use the resources there to build an interplanetary space armada to defend Earth from attack by the other interstellar space aliens.

Really, really, really drunk, I take it. But the concept is not so far-fetched (except for the intersteller aliens, which I leave to others) to build miltary stuff otherwares.

RobertDyck · 2003-08-21 13:08:13

RobertDyck, how do you feel about orion? I read the book but the pusher plate design bothers me as I have not yet read a solution to the event were as a bomb doesn't fire. When the bomb doesn't fire, there is nothing to stop the plate from releasing itself from the ship. Nukes are not as reliable as they are made up to be, as we have only exploded two (at least to my knowledge) in operational conditions of any sort. I doubt that it will ever be lanched from earth, but I do believe if it is possible then someday colonists will make their own to move asteroids around, as I can't imagine what else to use all that power for.

Truthfully, I wouldn't want to be on a spacecraft that operates by deliberately exploding nuclear bombs with the spacecraft inside the blast radius. What if a piece of pusher plate breaks off and gets propelled by the same nuclear explosion into the spacecraft? Those nukes use chemical explosive to detonate the nuclear material. An asymetrical detonation of the explosive will not detonate the nuke, so it is almost imposible to accidentally detonate the nukes in storage, but their chemical explosive can go off. That means a massive explosion on the wrong side of the pusher plate, so it could destroy the ship. You could counter with the arguement that igniting rocket fuel in the tank could result in catastrophic loss of the spacecraft, as Challenger found out. However, chemical rockets use combustion, they don't deliberately detonate nuclear explosives close to the ship. It sounds damn dangerous to me. However, nuclear thermal rockets sound like a very good idea. Furthermore, do you think the international community would accept nuclear bombs in space? I don't think so. Without a re-entry capsule the bombs cannot enter Earth's atmosphere, but it is too great a temptation for a terrorist or rogue nation. After the Iraq war there are some countries that wouldn't trust the US with nuclear bombs in space. The UN Outer Space Treaty of 1967 was specifically created to prevent nuclear bombs in space.

So my view is nuclear reactors and nuclear thermal rockets, yes; Orion or other nuclear bombs, no.

Gennaro · 2003-08-21 15:30:07

Yet I, as a European, would trust the US with nuclear bombs in space. I only hope the US in return will trust the Germans, French and Swedes doing the same if ESA just could get its ass off the ground (very hypothetically speaking, I admit). You are not alone on this planet you know, there are other civilized nations and if you don't want to do it or 'allow' it... well, to hell with you!

You can watch the brave Chinese go to the Moon, for all I care.

In order not to get swamped by these rouge nations as you call them, we need to override them, and getting into space first in a big way is an important part of achieving just that. The way I see it, the truth is we are running out of oppurtunities to carry on a technologically driven economical development. We have for quite some time already. Space is the logical next frontier. (Yes, I'll settle for Nuclear Thermal Rockets too, if Orion somehow can't be done. Would be truly spectacular in its own right.)

I read the book but the pusher plate design bothers me as I have not yet read a solution to the event were as a bomb doesn't fire.

Truthfully, I wouldn't want to be on a spacecraft that operates by deliberately exploding nuclear bombs with the spacecraft inside the blast radius.

Gentlemen, what about the "right stuff"... ?

So, if one or two Orions explode on the runway, what about it? Humanity hasn't ever gone anywhere without taking risks and if you're not too keen on it, then at least allow me to go! I'll be dead in 60 years anyway and there are lots of people who'd likewise volunteer, I'm sure.

Magellan set sail from Sanl?car on the 20th of September 1519 with five ships and 280 men. A single ship, the "Victoria", returned to Spain three years later with a crew of less than 20. Magellan himself was slain by locals on the Phillippines.

The right stuff... ?

RobertDyck · 2003-08-21 16:12:19

You are not alone on this planet you know, there are other civilized nations and if you don't want to do it or 'allow' it... well, to hell with you!

Ok, I'm getting sucked into American government rhetoric. But remember that it was nations other than America or the Soviet Union who established the Outer Space Treaty. I believe Europe was amoung the initiators of that treaty. The first UN document I can find about that is Resolution 1348, December 13, 1958. Who did initiate this resolution?

As a practical note, I think the Pentagon would have a cow at the idea of a country other than the United States putting nuclear bombs in space. Do you want the restriction that the US can but Europe cannot? I don't think anyone would agree to that.

Gennaro · 2003-08-21 17:18:57

As far as I can tell, UN resolution 1348 was submitted by Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Czechoslovakia, France, India, Iran, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Poland, Sweden, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the United Arab Republic, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America, but who specifically pushed for it I wouldn't know.

I just think the world has changed a lot since the Outer Space Treaty and the likes of it. The cold war is long since gone, no pair of great powers of today would dream of going to war on the basis of ideology or any other reason. MAD works and the prospect of space nuclear weapons would not make things much worse in that regard. In the last reckoning, you can only kill off humanity once. All that talk of "peaceful purposes only" and "international co-operation" is breathing of an era when we all percieved to be living under the threat of a massive strategic exchange of nuclear weapons.
In fact, I today feel that America is somewhat tied up in having to be so darn co-operative about space and everything. I don't think we in Europe deserve to get it all for free and it only creates feelings of guilt and adverse expectations on our unquestioning loyalty whatever you and your pals in Israel come up with (read: freedom fries).

Really, I'd like to free the US space effort to enjoy the fruits of its own labour and follow whatever path it deemes fit, just as long as itself acknowledges the corresponding sovereignity of other powers to do likewise. That's not to say that a nuclear weapons treaty in space wouldn't be a benefit to all involved (who wants to squander resources on stockpiling orbital weapons?), but pulse units for Orions really are not nuclear weapons, it's a propulsion system just like any other nuclear propulsion system.

Okay, maybe I'm rambling, but I hope you see my rather simple point. The world is no longer bi-polar in any sense. The US no longer have to shoulder the burden of safeguarding freedom. In the new century the world powers will concievably be made up of the US, China, Europe and Russia and to a lesser extent of countries like Japan, Taiwan and India, all with a potential ability to expand in space on their own. Really, it resembles the 19th century rather than the superpower rivalry of the latter half of the 20th century.
I for one wouldn't mind some friendly competition here, John Wayne versus Phileas Fogg, to suggest one. It would be fun!

Excuse me, but what does "cow" mean in this context? I'm sorry but not being American, I'm sometimes a miss to the finer points of linguistic freewheelin'.

Resolution 1348:

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/SpaceLaw/g … _1348.html

RobertDyck · 2003-08-21 19:41:30

"have a cow" is a slang idiom from the cartoon "The Simpsons". The translation from dictionary.com is "To become amazed, angered, or upset."

I'm not American, I am Canadian. I would like to see disarmament to a much greater extent. I would also like to see greater international co-operation; not just to promote allies in a cold war, but to eliminate duplication and waste. We can accomplish a lot more together than separately. As an example, at the Mars Society conference I saw a presentation by one guy calling for an American ATV. His excuse was that the French built ATV for ESA has a door too small to accommodate an American science rack. I feel the Americans should focus on something else and let the Europeans deliver useful cargo to the ISS. An American ATV would just detract from Europe's glory of providing that function. Right now the Americans are having a problem that their aerospace contractors are asking far too much money for an Orbital Space Plane. They can't afford to build both an OSP and an ATV. I say let the US build the OSP and Europe build the ATV. But that would require the ATV to accommodate all cargo to the ISS, whether it's for a European module, Russian, Japanese, or American.

Canada has divested itself of all nuclear weapons. Yes, we used to have a few purchased from America. A nuclear bomb for Orion may be intended for propulsion, but does not have to be modified at all for use as a weapon in space. It would be far too easy to put one in a Soyuz descent module or OSP to be used as a weapon against an Earth city.

By the way, Canada is against the violence in the Middle East. We do not takes sides in that conflict.

space_psibrain · 2003-08-21 21:41:51

Indeed, the concerns about Orion being used as a weapon of war are more than valid.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-08-22 17:47:00

Cindy, thanks for the amusing response about Robert Zubrin's enigmatic smile. It's good of you to humour a paranoiac and it gave me an enigmatic smile too!

Maybe you're right about Robert, too. If we see him wearing a woolen 'beanie' over his ears at that Mars Society conference we were talking about, I think we'll be onto something!
[I'm buying the coffee, you're buying the doughnuts ... that leaves Robert to bring the pencil and paper. Right? ]

space_psibrain · 2003-08-22 17:59:49

hahaha

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#26 2003-08-15 23:51:06

Re: Electric powered engines.

#27 2003-08-16 01:45:12

Re: Electric powered engines.

#28 2003-08-20 00:44:02

Re: Electric powered engines.

#29 2003-08-20 20:30:08

Re: Electric powered engines.

#30 2003-08-21 09:53:00

Re: Electric powered engines.

#31 2003-08-21 11:00:49

Re: Electric powered engines.

#32 2003-08-21 11:15:23

Re: Electric powered engines.

#33 2003-08-21 11:52:59

Re: Electric powered engines.

#34 2003-08-21 13:08:13

Re: Electric powered engines.

#35 2003-08-21 15:30:07

Re: Electric powered engines.

#36 2003-08-21 16:12:19

Re: Electric powered engines.

#37 2003-08-21 17:18:57

Re: Electric powered engines.

#38 2003-08-21 19:41:30

Re: Electric powered engines.

#39 2003-08-21 21:41:51

Re: Electric powered engines.

#40 2003-08-22 17:47:00

Re: Electric powered engines.

#41 2003-08-22 17:59:49

Re: Electric powered engines.

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