Is Mars a hellhole?

louis · 2021-07-06 15:44:20

Don't think this has been mentioned...

https://www.marssociety.org/red-planet- … -hellhole/

Perhaps Robert knows about it.

tahanson43206 · 2021-07-06 17:11:40

For Louis re new topic and Post #1

Thanks ** very ** much for providing a link to this article, which is itself a response to another article.

Evan Plant-Weir HBSc, is co-founder of The Mars Society of Canada. He is a passionate space exploration advocate, creative writer, science communicator, and content creator. Access Evan's LinkedIn Page.

In the Large Ship topic, RobertDyck just posted a history of the Mars Society in Canada, and of his part in it's evolution.

I am looking forward to anything RobertDyck might share with us about the article you cited, the article to which is a response, and Evan Plant-Weir.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2021-07-06 19:31:07

Glenn Scott is rebuilding the Mars Society Canada. I have exchanged email with Glenn. Evan is one of the new crew. Not one of those I had issues with.

kbd512 · 2021-07-06 19:45:53

Mars is definitely NOT a hellhole!

The various cities, towns, and villages across the Earth that have been polluted to the point of being unlivable or wrecked beyond repair by the results of radical ideologies are hellholes.

Mars is a challenge for the pioneering spirit of humanity to rise up to meet. We need to expand into space, if only to put some distance between peoples who would otherwise squander their lives killing each other or engaged in other similarly idle pursuits. Mars requires new technology, new engineering, new thinking, and a new direction for the future of humanity.

SpaceNut · 2021-07-06 19:53:59

Mars is only a hell hole when you live at current solar received energy levels for each meter man could occupy and at mars current non breathable atmospheric content and pressure. Its not until you plan to defeat those 2 posts of hell will we be on our way to a happy mars life. Of course we need at a minimum 3 other poles to fit under those and they are a living shelter of reduced radiation level designed, capable food production and growth, plentiful water.

RobertDyck · 2021-07-06 21:08:02

If you read the article, Evan Plant-Weir is one of us. He's Chief Communications Officer for Mars Society Canada. His article argues against the assertion that Mars is a hellhole. He makes the same arguments we do.

He provided a link to the article he argues against, published in Atlantic. Mars is a Hellhole

kbd512 · 2021-07-07 15:30:47

If Shannon Stirone thinks more effort should be directed at solving specific problems here on Earth, then she can devote her own time and money towards solving them. Elon Musk is not obligated to pursue whatever it is that she thinks is most important. Personal attacks directed at someone else who has already decided what is most important to him is an utter waste of her time. After reading what she wrote about Elon Musk, my opinion is that I won't waste another moment of my time reading her opinions. SpaceX is still moving forward with colonizing Mars, whether she agrees with that goal or not. I think that pretty much sums up what needs to be said about this.

louis · 2021-07-07 16:33:21

The original article in the Atlantic (PC Ideology Central) is a malodorous pile of dog-doo: shallow, manipulative, dishonest and pointless.

There are huge downsides to living on Mars, for sure and I have pointed to many of them here in discussionsbut there are compensatory upsides: being part of this big creative endeavour to plant human civilisation on a different planet. It's difficult to quantify just how much of a pyschological boost that will be. My guess is it will be very big.

As long as we can develop ELEs (Earth-like environments) for leisure and exercise to compensate for the very limited opportunity to be "outdoors" I think Mars can become a pleasant place to live, albeit quite different from Earth in some respects.

RobertDyck wrote:

If you read the article, Evan Plant-Weir is one of us. He's Chief Communications Officer for Mars Society Canada. His article argues against the assertion that Mars is a hellhole. He makes the same arguments we do.
He provided a link to the article he argues against, published in Atlantic. Mars is a Hellhole

Last edited by louis (2021-07-07 16:33:55)

SpaceNut · 2021-07-07 19:26:51

To run on the surface of mars just means making a high ceiling enclosing the planet with artificial rain and temperatures as manufactured to simulate under its protective canopy. Limited landing on the outer shell to specific locations and population but one can do just that in time.

GW Johnson · 2021-07-08 09:32:31

Ignoring the rhetoric and the politics, the title of the thread itself suggests some discussion is warranted.

My opinion: whether Mars is a hellhole depends upon how you look at the issue.

Mars as it currently exists is surprisingly hostile to unaided human life, despite the remarkable similarities in day length, seasons, and geology.

The atmospheric pressure is so low that vacuum death is immediate without pressurized spaces or vacuum-protective clothing. The atmospheric composition is essentially the suffocant gas carbon dioxide, so that oxygen breathing gear or an artificial oxygen-bearing atmosphere must be supplied no matter where one is. The biological effects of carbon dioxide the waste gas are such that you cannot use it as the diluent gas in your breathing gear or artificial atmosphere. The atmospheric temperatures are about like those on the Antarctic plateau: quite lethal without protective clothing and artificial heating.

A lot of people would look at that list, and conclude it really is a hellhole, appearances otherwise notwithstanding.

And yet, at this time in history, we have the capability to construct habitable spaces and fill them with appropriate atmospheres and adequate heating for a comfortable and safe environment. We have the capability to make vacuum protective clothing and portable oxygen breathing equipment, and we have long known how to make clothing protective against Antarctic cold.

A lot of people would look at those abilities and conclude that Mars is not such a hellhole after all.

Here's where it gets murky: how does one go about permanently producing food, water, oxygen, and energy permanently, to support living in those spaces with those artificial atmospheres? Some believe we possess the requisite knowledge and abilities to do those things, others disagree. Both can point at supporting data, so the prudent conclusion is "I don't yet know".

But, I think we all can agree that temporary occupations on Mars are feasible if supplied from Earth, for sure. Whether the permanent local support technologies will actually work "right" is something that can only be attempted experimentally, lest we risk killing everyone sent there if it does not work "right". I think everybody can agree on that, as well.

Now, if we accept those items, taken together they would suggest that small temporary occupations be emplaced on Mars, attempting the permanent supply solutions experimentally, but fully supplied from Earth in case they do not work. The smart thing to do is continue that pattern, until they do really work "right".

Then, and only then, could larger populations be ethically risked on Mars. Simple as that. And just as hard to carry out, as you might imagine.

Without the long-term support technologies in place and actually working right, Mars really is a lethal hellhole of sorts. Once they work right, that perception of an otherwise lethal environment changes entirely. It's far less a question of opinion, and far more a question of demonstrated (!!!) technological ability to overcome lethal threats.

Why is this important? Because any plans to go there must reflect those facts, or else you will be unethically killing your crews.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2021-07-08 09:45:18)

Oldfart1939 · 2021-07-08 10:01:20

GW-

Another time I am wishing for a "thumbs up" emoji.
Very clearly stated and well reasoned.

kbd512 · 2021-07-08 10:46:33

GW,

It's not a genuine argument. It's a straw man. This woman is using a modern computer that was based upon Apollo-era microcomputer technology incorporated into the Saturn V's guidance computer and she's using the internet, which was based upon a DARPA project that allowed scientists at various research agencies, including NASA, to share ideas. All the technological advancement and scientific understanding that space exploration and colonization efforts provides her with a job, because that's what she writes about. She's a direct beneficiary of the space program and military / space communications infrastructure, yet she's complaining that Elon Musk isn't taking on one her pet projects, or that because he's a capitalist, he only wants to go to Mars because he's greedy or egotistical. Someone with his type of wealth who's greedy and egotistical doesn't live in a shoebox apartment with a single car and a handful of worth clothes. He spends every waking hour with his family or at work, solving technical problems. Despite his ability to purchase anything he wants and to never work again, he lives no better than she does. Beyond that, ISS has never been branded a hellhole, yet the environment just outside the thin Aluminum walls of the space station is every bit as lethal to human life, and then some.

Most of planet Earth would be nearly or completely uninhabitable by humans without protective clothing, buildings with central air conditioning and heating / electrical power / plumbing for fresh and grey water, purpose-built vehicles for transportation (cars / trucks / ships / aircraft, many if not most equipped with air conditioning / heating / atmospheric filtering), etc.

"You have to wear a space suit in space!", is not a genuine argument. It's like saying, "You have to wear a jacket in Michigan in the winter!", or you'll die. Both statements are equally true. There are not varying degrees of dead. Whether you die from lack of oxygen or from hypothermia, you're just as dead either way. My response to that line of argumentation is, "So, what?" If I go to Michigan, then I will wear a jacket. If I go to Mars, then I will wear a space suit. The woman making this argument would not survive the winter in New York without wearing protective clothing. I've seen pictures of her wearing a coat on the internet, so I know good and well that she does just that. She doesn't think being bundled up like an Eskimo is too onerous, but she's worried about wearing a space suit? It's silly to even contemplate. If your jacket fails to insulate, then you die. If your space suit fails to provide oxygen, then you die. Both types of technology are utterly reliable at this point.

Most humans on planet Earth protect themselves from their environment in a multitude of ways. Very few people walk around completely naked outside, even when permitted to do so. I know it can be done and is survivable under some circumstances, but the people that do it who have previously worn clothing that protects them from extreme hot or cold, sharp rocks, and stinging insects immediately regret the decision. I've slept outside on the ground in the winter time here in Texas with a jacket / pants / hiking boots, but no tent or sleeping bag or poncho to protect from cold rain, and it was a miserable experience. I obviously survived, but that's not my idea of fun. Humans make and use tools, because that's what humans do to survive and thrive. Protective clothing and environmental controls are simply additional tools in humanity's tool belt to either make life more pleasant or merely survivable.

GW Johnson · 2021-07-08 13:07:17

Kbd52:

I actually agree with you. The diatribe against going to Mars or into space is not what I took on. I took on whether we are ready to live in a place like that yet.

I think only partly so, and we need to do the experimentation to make sure our readiness is fully realized. You have to do that experimentation in situ before you can believe any of the results. So, you limit the risk as best you can, while experimenting.

Which is why I said send small teams to try to make their own air, water, food, and heating right there on Mars. But supply them from Earth until they really can make those things. Once we know it works, then you can risk sending bigger teams.

But not before. Why? Because the odds are that the initial versions of the hardware and procedures are not going to work. It has been that way throughout history.

GW

Oldfart1939 · 2021-07-08 15:42:44

I'm going to shamelessly promote my idea of a 17 man ("person") crew, and have a suitable group of strong minded and fearless individuals compose it. Big enough to actually accomplish a LOT, but small enough to easily provide with adequate food, air, shelter and water.

I created this as something of a "pathfinder" mission, and one which would be "an experiment."

SpaceNut · 2021-07-08 20:16:51

We can only go if we can stop the solar versus nuclear which happens in every topic as we will need both to succeed even if we start with just one or the other period.

Oldfart1939 · 2021-07-08 21:11:18

I agree with your statement. Both sources of power have application, because power is life on this alien world. More is better.

RobertDyck · 2021-07-08 22:12:02

I live in Winnipeg. Winter here is cold. It can get down to -40° (C or F) real temperature. If you don't have a source of heat, you die. It gets below -30°C more often. And where do you expect to find food in winter? Technology is necessary. You have to grow food in summer, and stockpile surplus to survive winter. And humans can't go outside in winter without warm clothing. That requires more technology. Yes, tanning animal hide to form leather is technology. A sewing needle made of bone with an eye to pull thread, is technology.

Over 100,000 years ago, ancient humans migrated into Siberia. Yes, Neanderthal was there before them. But humans had to survive. They developed new technology: parka and pants made of fur. Mits, boots also of fur. All this had to be close to the body, not a loose cape or coat. That was new. The parka did not open, instead pulled over your head like a sweater. And it had a hood so only the face was exposed. They used the warmest fur of any animal known: reindeer aka cariboo. And they had domesticated dogs. Dogs could pull a sleigh, expanding how much cargo they could carry. They hunted mega fauna including mammoth. You need significant cargo capacity to haul meat from a mammoth. And they built insulated tents using mammoth ribs for supports, and the tent was tanned mammoth hide. That means the tent itself was heavily insulated.

Polynesian people developed technology to cross the Pacific and settle islands. How many thousands of years ago?

Ancient aboriginal people of the Amazon developed technology to build deep soil where they could grow crops. They built a vast network of villages, all connected by dirt roads. This was documented by the first white man to visit. That document was thought a fabrication, but modern archaeology is proving he was right. People today don't know how to build soil in the Amazon. It's a tropical jungle, but soil is ridiculously thin.

People of the Andes mountains lived so high that most food crops will not grow. They found a natural tuber that does grow. It's toxic, a member of the deadly nightshade family. But they found if they take the tuber even higher, so high in the mountains that temperatures at night freeze and nothing grows, and they tread on the tuber to break open the skin, this causes the tuber to freeze dry. And that leaches the toxin from the vegetable. This makes it edible. They did this for centuries, selectively breeding their crop until the tuber no longer had the toxin. The leaves and stems still have the toxin. The fruit has concentrated poison. But the tuber grows plentifully. They developed a technique of raised beds with water filled trenches surrounding. When temperature plummets over night a couple degrees below freezing, the water vapour prevents their crops from freezing. This crop was called potato.

Today we live in environments lethal to humans. Our technology allows us to thrive. Mars is just another climate. Our technology will allow us to thrive there as well. Anyone used to a tropical climate, where they aren't confined indoors for months in winter, may be so spoiled that they don't understand Mars. Those of us who live in harsher climates can understand Mars.

louis · 2021-07-09 04:48:26

It's also ironic that it was the Green movement which was a major beneficiary of the Apollo space programme. The photos of "spaceship Earth" and "Earthrise" probably did more than anything to kickstart the ecology movement as it was then called. They say a picture paints a thousand words -well those pictures paint whole volumes.

kbd512 wrote:

GW,
It's not a genuine argument. It's a straw man. This woman is using a modern computer that was based upon Apollo-era microcomputer technology incorporated into the Saturn V's guidance computer and she's using the internet, which was based upon a DARPA project that allowed scientists at various research agencies, including NASA, to share ideas. All the technological advancement and scientific understanding that space exploration and colonization efforts provides her with a job, because that's what she writes about. She's a direct beneficiary of the space program and military / space communications infrastructure, yet she's complaining that Elon Musk isn't taking on one her pet projects, or that because he's a capitalist, he only wants to go to Mars because he's greedy or egotistical. Someone with his type of wealth who's greedy and egotistical doesn't live in a shoebox apartment with a single car and a handful of worth clothes. He spends every waking hour with his family or at work, solving technical problems. Despite his ability to purchase anything he wants and to never work again, he lives no better than she does. Beyond that, ISS has never been branded a hellhole, yet the environment just outside the thin Aluminum walls of the space station is every bit as lethal to human life, and then some.
Most of planet Earth would be nearly or completely uninhabitable by humans without protective clothing, buildings with central air conditioning and heating / electrical power / plumbing for fresh and grey water, purpose-built vehicles for transportation (cars / trucks / ships / aircraft, many if not most equipped with air conditioning / heating / atmospheric filtering), etc.
"You have to wear a space suit in space!", is not a genuine argument. It's like saying, "You have to wear a jacket in Michigan in the winter!", or you'll die. Both statements are equally true. There are not varying degrees of dead. Whether you die from lack of oxygen or from hypothermia, you're just as dead either way. My response to that line of argumentation is, "So, what?" If I go to Michigan, then I will wear a jacket. If I go to Mars, then I will wear a space suit. The woman making this argument would not survive the winter in New York without wearing protective clothing. I've seen pictures of her wearing a coat on the internet, so I know good and well that she does just that. She doesn't think being bundled up like an Eskimo is too onerous, but she's worried about wearing a space suit? It's silly to even contemplate. If your jacket fails to insulate, then you die. If your space suit fails to provide oxygen, then you die. Both types of technology are utterly reliable at this point.
Most humans on planet Earth protect themselves from their environment in a multitude of ways. Very few people walk around completely naked outside, even when permitted to do so. I know it can be done and is survivable under some circumstances, but the people that do it who have previously worn clothing that protects them from extreme hot or cold, sharp rocks, and stinging insects immediately regret the decision. I've slept outside on the ground in the winter time here in Texas with a jacket / pants / hiking boots, but no tent or sleeping bag or poncho to protect from cold rain, and it was a miserable experience. I obviously survived, but that's not my idea of fun. Humans make and use tools, because that's what humans do to survive and thrive. Protective clothing and environmental controls are simply additional tools in humanity's tool belt to either make life more pleasant or merely survivable.

louis · 2021-07-09 05:05:58

Totally agree.

Polynesians also accumulated huge knowledge of the oceans, just as we have accumulated huge knowledge of space and Mars. The polynesians' store of knowledge is quite fascinating .They could see patterns in waves and even currents that enabled them to navigate the vast Pacific. They could tell from the colouring of the underside of a cloud whether there was land or ocean beneath it.

Aside from space medicine issues, the big thing we have to sort out on Mars is creating large leisure-orientated spaces that have a "fresh air feel" about them. I think this will be key to maintaining good mental health on Mars.

RobertDyck wrote:

I live in Winnipeg. Winter here is cold. It can get down to -40° (C or F) real temperature. If you don't have a source of heat, you die. It gets below -30°C more often. And where do you expect to find food in winter? Technology is necessary. You have to grow food in summer, and stockpile surplus to survive winter. And humans can't go outside in winter without warm clothing. That requires more technology. Yes, tanning animal hide to form leather is technology. A sewing needle made of bone with an eye to pull thread, is technology.
Over 100,000 years ago, ancient humans migrated into Siberia. Yes, Neanderthal was there before them. But humans had to survive. They developed new technology: parka and pants made of fur. Mits, boots also of fur. All this had to be close to the body, not a loose cape or coat. That was new. The parka did not open, instead pulled over your head like a sweater. And it had a hood so only the face was exposed. They used the warmest fur of any animal known: reindeer aka cariboo. And they had domesticated dogs. Dogs could pull a sleigh, expanding how much cargo they could carry. They hunted mega fauna including mammoth. You need significant cargo capacity to haul meat from a mammoth. And they built insulated tents using mammoth ribs for supports, and the tent was tanned mammoth hide. That means the tent itself was heavily insulated.
Polynesian people developed technology to cross the Pacific and settle islands. How many thousands of years ago?
Ancient aboriginal people of the Amazon developed technology to build deep soil where they could grow crops. They built a vast network of villages, all connected by dirt roads. This was documented by the first white man to visit. That document was thought a fabrication, but modern archaeology is proving he was right. People today don't know how to build soil in the Amazon. It's a tropical jungle, but soil is ridiculously thin.
People of the Andes mountains lived so high that most food crops will not grow. They found a natural tuber that does grow. It's toxic, a member of the deadly nightshade family. But they found if they take the tuber even higher, so high in the mountains that temperatures at night freeze and nothing grows, and they tread on the tuber to break open the skin, this causes the tuber to freeze dry. And that leaches the toxin from the vegetable. This makes it edible. They did this for centuries, selectively breeding their crop until the tuber no longer had the toxin. The leaves and stems still have the toxin. The fruit has concentrated poison. But the tuber is grows plentifully. They developed a technique of raised beds with water filled trenches surrounding. When temperature plummets over night a couple degrees below freezing, the water vapour prevents their crops from freezing. This crop was called potato.
Today we live in environments lethal to humans. Our technology allows us to thrive. Mars is just another climate. Our technology will allow us to thrive there was well. Anyone used to a tropical climate, where they aren't confined indoors for months in winter, may be so spoiled that they don't understand Mars. Those of us who live in harsher climates can understand Mars.

RobertDyck · 2021-07-09 07:08:58

louis wrote:

Aside from space medicine issues, the big thing we have to sort out on Mars is creating large leisure-orientated spaces that have a "fresh air feel" about them. I think this will be key to maintaining good mental health on Mars.

I've posted this a few times...

A city could have something like this. Inside Portage Place, a mall in Winnipeg. This has a glass roof over the central atrium, but could light be reflected via mirrors? (click for enlargement)

Calliban · 2021-07-09 08:17:46

I will read this in more detail later. But the fact of the matter is that Mars, as it stands, is a cold (as Antarctica) and almost airless place, where you will find no natural food, no potable water and no air to breath. Whether it will be a hellhole or not depends on what we make of it, and most importantly our ability to manufacture food, water, warm living space, manufactured goods, etc. This will in turn depend upon our ability to identify and mine raw materials and turn them into the things we need. That will take A LOT OF ENERGY.

As I have stated on this board numerous times, abundant energy on Mars requires that a colony has access to and is able to produce nuclear reactors with a high enough breeding ratio to allow the colonists to build more reactors as base population expands. Mars will indeed be a hell hole if we are forced to go there with a bunch of solar panels and end up having to try and make more panels using solar energy, whilst using whatever scraps of power are left to try and make other things we need. On a planet where even air is something that has to be manufactured, ideologically enforced energy poverty will bring the Martian experience to an unhappy end very quickly.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-07-09 08:19:21)

Oldfart1939 · 2021-07-09 11:49:03

Calliban-

Mars has plenty of Thorium; much more suitable for power generation w/o the terrible by-products.

louis · 2021-07-09 14:28:29

It would help to have natural light. I'd like to be assured that there wasn't a major risk from meteorite impact in what could be a very crowded space with key functions (I'm more relaxed about glass roofs for Earth like gorges, because they will be less densely populated.

One point about a glass roof - I'd like to see an irregular framing pattern. This could then be camouflage0painted to blend in with the natural vegetation, so creating the illusion the frame was the branch(es) of a tree.

RobertDyck wrote:

louis wrote:
Aside from space medicine issues, the big thing we have to sort out on Mars is creating large leisure-orientated spaces that have a "fresh air feel" about them. I think this will be key to maintaining good mental health on Mars.
I've posted this a few times...
A city could have something like this. Inside Portage Place, a mall in Winnipeg. This has a glass roof over the central atrium, but could light be reflected via mirrors? (click for enlargement)
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQZilw7KZtOT3kXTKmP8dJs7F1V9ujWjxEZHw&usqp=CAU https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag … A&usqp=CAU

Last edited by louis (2021-07-09 14:29:42)

tahanson43206 · 2021-07-09 14:54:39

For Louis re glass roofing ....

It is possible I missed it in all the discussion in the forum .... did you find a solution for creating safe windows for pressure vessels?

The ISS shows they are possible, and at considerable size.

Can you provide pricing for those windows? I like the cupola ones in particular.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2021-07-09 20:42:45

I tried to say that for a large atrium like the mall, you want it burried in Mars dirt for radiation shielding. Use light pipes to direct natural sunlight through the roof with diffusers in the ceiling.

For a greenhouse use tempered glass. Tempering makes glass harder than minerals of Mars dust/sand so it won't scratch or craze during dust storms.

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Is Mars a hellhole?

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