Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

Palomar · 2003-08-15 08:25:50

I'm weird, I just like spuds with salt! Nothing else. A sprinkle of salt brings out the taste really well for me.

*To each their own, Josh.

But really, lack of dairy products is going to be a challenge. No cheese, butter, cream or milk (the "basics" of dairy). No cottage cheese, sour cream, yogurt (the "luxuries" of dairy).

I cook most morning and evening meals throughout the week. I am trying to comprehend not having ANY of those dairy products on hand, and thinking about what you could cook gets to be a challenge.

I suppose they'll figure it out; maybe some rich people will pay for powdered milk, sour cream and cheese (like the crap you get in those cheap "macaroni and cheese" boxes...which I do NOT buy) to be sent up occasionally.

Of course, necessity is the mother of invention. We humans can be very creative and innovative when need be...but lack of dairy on Mars will be something to contend with.

--Cindy

clark · 2003-08-15 08:50:31

can't you get milk and cheese from goats?

What about miniture cows?

Pygmy pigs- hello bacon, ham, and pork chops- all in one.

I imagine you can process the fat for other uses.

Vegtables can be processed into oil- canola oil is little more than liquid corn. Hello french fries...er, freedom fries. And you can always just bake the potato.

grow some chives, throw em on and you're half way there.

You wouldn't neccessarily need to grow sugar cane, as alternatives can be made chemically.

Palomar · 2003-08-15 09:09:15

can't you get milk and cheese from goats?
What about miniture cows?
Pygmy pigs- hello bacon, ham, and pork chops- all in one.

*Yes...you can get milk and cheese from goats. But do you realize the vast amount of greens 1 goat (even a pygmy goat) eats in a single day? They eat A LOT. Sans expansive terraforming, grass couldn't be grown fast enough to keep up with consumption within an enclosed biodome.

How to feed even smaller breed cows and pigs? Corn would do the trick, have fun growing it fast enough to keep up with demand (even if genetically engineered, like Starlink).

--Cindy

clark · 2003-08-15 09:22:25

Dairy goats eat about 5 pounds of alfalfa hay a day, which is also supplemented with a mixture of grain (14-16% protein)

But hey, meat and dairy requires a much more advanced food chain base becuase you have to support animals to create it.

Perhaps they can monkey around with the pigs genes and make them produce goats milk though.

Josh Cryer · 2003-08-15 10:13:53

Cindy, I've been making homemade french fries with vegetable oil and potatoes. Yumm. Better than the fast food stuff.

I actually have very little dairy in my diet, though I'm not lactose intolerant at all, and I love a huge glass of milk. It's just, well, too expensive. :;):

Ahem, I know where we can get a source of lactose, but I won't go there. Heheh.

We ought to be able to grow enough grains to support a few animals, though, so if you really want to deal with having farm animals, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to take one (of course, it may not survive the trip, but that's another story). I, personally, wouldn't want to have to deal with the stinch. I may like the farm-life, but argiculture is much nicer from a cleanliness perspective.

Palomar · 2003-08-15 10:25:29

Josh: Cindy, I've been making homemade french fries with vegetable oil and potatoes. Yumm. Better than the fast food stuff.

*Try olive oil instead...healthier and no (even slight) oil aftertaste.

Josh: I actually have very little dairy in my diet, though I'm not lactose intolerant at all, and I love a huge glass of milk. It's just, well, too expensive.

Ahem, I know where we can get a source of lactose, but I won't go there. Heheh.

*Nursing mothers? I doubt many women would want to take further risks of getting nasty cases of osteoporosis (even if some women can continue producing milk for a few years, continously...but then there's the side effect of nursing being a natural contraceptive of sorts); dealing with Mars' lower gravity will be trying enough for the bones of women in their child-bearing years.

Josh: We ought to be able to grow enough grains to support a few animals, though, so if you really want to deal with having farm animals, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to take one (of course, it may not survive the trip, but that's another story). I, personally, wouldn't want to have to deal with the stinch. I may like the farm-life, but argiculture is much nicer from a cleanliness perspective.

*And with even small goats producing milk there'd have to be ways of processing the output for various products; butter, milk and cream would be easy enough to procure, but cheese would be another matter. I've never made cheese, but I hear it's work and requires cultures, etc.

--Cindy

prometheusunbound · 2003-08-15 11:46:17

Who needs diary products? Just look at the chinese! They went without it for 3,000 years.

As for meat, what about chicken? some large mega farms produce a great deal of eggs and meat, although I don't know how much grain and meal they consume.

Palomar · 2003-08-15 12:41:46

Who needs diary products? Just look at the chinese! They went without it for 3,000 years.

*Oh really? And what were the babies fed? Via breast, mother's or wet-nurse's: MILK.

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2003-08-15 15:05:53

Cindy, I drain my fried potatoes and soak them up with napkins, so there isn't any oily after-taste except that which is already cooked in. And I like the taste. I'm going out later, if I see some olive oil, maybe I will get a small bottle.

I didn't think that nursing mothers could have health problems (hell, humans as they are are probably going to have health problems), but I was joking anyway... so bah to you. I've never had human milk, but I hear that it's runnier. You know, it may very well be possible to synthesize lactose, but I wouldn't know. I believe that soy or hemp can create a milk taste very well, so if it's the taste you're looking for, maybe there are alternatives.

I don't think processing in and of themselves are nasty, I mean, getting the processing facilities might be diffciult, but using them would be absolutely nothing compared to cleaning up after the animals all the time. Even if you had Lackners' auxons doing all the work (they themselves feeding off of the waste), there would still be a stinch which would simply cover everything without lots of filtration processes. Not that the smell is necessarily bad, of course. A lot of people would grow to like it. Question is whether or not all the complexities are worth it.

Now, if we could grow some meat and utters, without having to deal with all the extra stuff. That might be worth looking into.

space_psibrain · 2003-08-15 19:04:02

I"m sure that one could use a population of tilapia, rabbits, and chickens in addition to a massive supply of grain and vegatable crops

As for the waste and such, I'm sure we could harness that for power, or use the technology of Super Critical Water Oxidizers to break down the stuff into nitrates, carbon dioxide, and water

colonist · 2003-08-27 21:11:07

If we are discussing meat, lets not limit ourselves to just what we here in the west use. In South America they eat cavies (guinea pigs) and even landless peasents can "ranch" a homegrown herd in a wooden box stored under a bed.

For aquaculture we could try catfish (hardier than tilapia) and crayfish (will eat the waste from cleaning the fish). Duckweed can be grown on the surface of the crayfish tank and harvested as a feed for the rabbits and other animals (it is the equivalent of alfalfa).

Lets not forget non-traditional plant foods as well. The lowly "cattail" has a potato-like root and the young leaves and shoot are edible. The immature seedhead is edible (kind of looks like corn-on-the-cob) and the pollen can be used as a high protien extender for flour. The mature seedhead provides a down that can be used for pillows, comforters, matresses, insulating overalls, etc. and the mature stalk provides fibers that can be added to marscrete to increase strength.

Just a few thoughts.

~Eternal~ · 2003-09-27 14:13:10

I wouldn't mind sharing my dome with a few cows ... well I wouldn't mind a dome next to my dome having a few cows in it(Think about: crap = nitrogen).
But yeah the first 20 years of Mars will be based on clean vegetable diets(and clean colons too . :;): ).

grommet37 · 2003-10-07 23:25:48

I posted this on another thread, but it bears on this subject, too:

My personal take on the subject of a future Martian ecosphere would be to utilize those very plants and animals which we find so hard to control on earth: the weed species. By this I mean all the so-called "invasive species", as well as all of the human-introduced "feral" species.

This would include all the "pests" commonly associated with people and their colonization of any area: cats, rats, dogs, pigeons, flies, fleas, ticks, spiders, ants, beetles, termites. Plants would include dandelion, clover, English Ivy, kudzu, crabgrass, purple loosestrife, thistle. For aquaculture, I recommend algae and carp (and tiger mussels).

Let's face it, if it's hard to kill, if it'll "grow anywhere", that's the stuff we want on our side. People were originally foragers, and ate lots of companion animals and bugs, too. These people will be explorers. They will be somewhat inured to hardship. They will need a source of protein which is not a major drain on their oxygen resources. Small mammals and birds are called for. As well as insects.

Not only are such animals as dogs, cats, and pigeons useful animals, in that they can be trained to perform useful work functions, they are easily handled by humans. Insects, too, perform many useful functions in the field and garden (pollinators, soil conditioning, etc.).

Further, our colonists will need a source of raw nutrients, besides just protein. What do doctors constantly tell us we never get enough of? Why our green leafy vegetables, that's right, the bitter greens, the salad greens, the primitive greens. What better source than LED-grown fresh young dandelions? And after the clover and the crabgrass has kicked the crap out of the Martian soil for us we can thank it, by (hopefully) choking it out with primitive grains like buckwheat and alfalfa. I think we'll have to work our way up to your cattle and apple trees.

One last note. An eminent entomologist who was also a theologian was asked if his many years of study of the processes of Nature had given him any insight into the character of the Creator. His reply was: "An inordinate fondness for beetles". I suggest we take a couple dozen varieties along to our new home, as well.

For more on Man and his pests, see Twain's "Letters From the Earth."

grommet37 · 2003-10-07 23:42:08

Someone above mentioned fat. The interesting thing to me about the use of old grease in a closed system is that restaurant grease can be used to run a diesel engine. Not only that, Diesel originally designed the engine to use peanut oil! Can it be that the petroleum barons found a way to screw George Washington Carver as well as the fieldhands? A diesel engine could probably work on hempseed oil, too. (The richest plant oil known, with the most-preferred birdseed.)

Regardless of the above bit of Green propaganda, Zubrin said internal combustion has the best mass-to-power ratio, and methane will be abundant. Whether it be Diesel, Wankel, or Ford, on Mars it'll be Bio-Powered. Or there WAS life on Mars, and the Texans own the oil rights. (Isn't petroleum just dead trilobites and tyrannosaurs?)

Bill White · 2003-10-08 13:15:06

grommet37 writes

My personal take on the subject of a future Martian ecosphere would be to utilize those very plants and animals which we find so hard to control on earth: the weed species. By this I mean all the so-called "invasive species", as well as all of the human-introduced "feral" species.
This would include all the "pests" commonly associated with people and their colonization of any area: cats, rats, dogs, pigeons, flies, fleas, ticks, spiders, ants, beetles, termites. Plants would include dandelion, clover, English Ivy, kudzu, crabgrass, purple loosestrife, thistle. For aquaculture, I recommend algae and carp (and tiger mussels).
Let's face it, if it's hard to kill, if it'll "grow anywhere", that's the stuff we want on our side. People were originally foragers, and ate lots of companion animals and bugs, too. These people will be explorers. They will be somewhat inured to hardship. They will need a source of protein which is not a major drain on their oxygen resources. Small mammals and birds are called for. As well as insects.

I share this perspective. What about kudzu weed? Or crabgrass? What ever grows fast - - very fast - - and is robust and resilient inside a Marsian dome. How to pick species? Early missions brings hundreds of different seeds and just see what grows best.

What if its inedible for people? No problem. Red worms will eat it and worms will eat all the inedible plover like tomato leaves and stems and the like. And red worm castings would make terrific compost for plants people can eat. Grow whatever grows FAST and feed it to the worms. Then grow tomatoes and lettuce (not iceberg, btw) and spinach etc. . . in potting soil (or terra preta - - see my earlier posts on this) fashioned from worm castings and nutrients harvested from the waste stream.

Simple as pie. :-)

IMHO - - the mission critical objective with ALL Marsian agriculture is to take local inorganics meaning CO2 + H2O + whatever nitrogen we can find, beg, borrow or import and transform those inorganics into nice organic chains. Once Marsian CO2 and H2O is converted into organics we can start a nascent food chain.

A few years ago - - on another Mars forum - - I used the term micro-terraforming which I see as being the intentional transformation of Marsian inorganic materials (CHON) into long-chain and very useful organic molecules. Did I coin a term micro-terraforming or has anyone else seen or heard this before?

PS - I am growing fond of the idea of growing olive trees on Mars. Garlic and oregano and basil are easily grown in herb gardens. Cook fresh vegetables in olive oil with these herbs and spices and early settlers can enjoy Italian-American cuisine!

Also, grape vines are quite prolific as well. I have cleared many unwanted grape vines from various family backyards and they often just come back the next year. A future dinner on Mars - - a nice Marsian red wine with fish and vegetables stir fried in olive oil and garlic. And tomatoes. Not bad, IMHO.

Palomar · 2003-10-08 13:24:13

Also, grape vines are quite prolific as well. I have cleared many unwanted grape vines from various family backyards and they often just come back the next year. A future dinner on Mars - - a nice Marsian red wine with fish and vegetables stir fried in olive oil and garlic. And tomatoes. Not bad, IMHO.

*Yeah, sounds pretty good (skip the wine; don't like it); and definitely more appetizing than "A Man, A Can, A Plan." But no pasta to go with it.

You know, I'd be frankly miserable on Mars, if I were an early settler. I have a humongous sweet tooth. I'm also a carbohydrate fiend in other respects as well (we've already discussed potatoes).

How many options for sweets, early on?

--Cindy

Bill White · 2003-10-08 13:43:18

Yeah, sounds pretty good (skip the wine; don't like it); and definitely more appetizing than "A Man, A Can, A Plan." But no pasta to go with it.

I am on a weight loss program of my own. Red wine in leiu of beer has been a great help and supposedly it soaks up all those nasty free radicals. :;):

Trader Joe's is an awesome grocery chain that recently moved into our neck of the woods and I can find great bottles of red wine (California or Italian) for $7 - 10 per bottle. More expensive than beer but better for my waistline.

= = =

In another forum, Terry Kok has pointed out the utter lack of cooking oil in many enclosed CELSS projects. An olive tree dome solves that problem and olive oil would have many other uses as well. Grow olive trees in pots inside domes.

= = =

Sweets? How about berries.

Strawberries grow well in sandy soil. Chicago is near coastal Indiana and while Lake Michigan strawberries are far less visually attractive than California grown they are sweeter.

Blueberries, raspberries and the like all seem good candidates for hydroponics.

Heritage strain tomatoes can be surprisingly sweet as well. My children eat Santa Sweet ? grape tomatoes like candy.
Finally, white grape juice is sweet even without added sugar.

Starch? Pasta, bread, cakes? I am skeptical. Grains and pulses might be far harder to establish. That may take a few generations.

Palomar · 2003-10-08 14:06:19

Sweets? How about berries.
Strawberries grow well in sandy soil. Chicago is near coastal Indiana and while Lake Michigan strawberries are far less visually attractive than California grown they are sweeter.
Blueberries, raspberries and the like all seem good candidates for hydroponics.
Heritage strain tomatoes can be surprisingly sweet as well. My children eat Santa Sweet ? grape tomatoes like candy.
Finally, white grape juice is sweet even without added sugar.
Starch? Pasta, bread, cakes? I am skeptical. Grains and pulses might be far harder to establish. That may take a few generations.

*Sure, berries...but no flour to make a crust with (no pies/tarts). No cakes, cookies, etc. Unless some folks on Earth get together to ship a few boxes of "just add water" mixes to the folks on Mars (provided at least a microwave oven is in the gear).

Of course, to make bread you also need yeast...unless it's flat bread. And to my knowledge, bread can't be baked in a microwave oven.

It's important to fortify the diet with a certain amount of grains, even if "just" cereals (not the presweetened kiddie variety).

Wow, I certainly know how to find my way around a kitchen on Earth...but on Mars? What a challenge.

--Cindy

RobertDyck · 2003-10-08 17:26:29

By the way, canola is a grain, it isn't a corn product. Corn oil is another type of oil.

Soy products can replace most dairy. Grocery stores have soy milk now. As I mentioned elsewhere there are also soy based cheese products, advertised as lactose free, or a casein product. The brand of veggie imitation meat and imitation cheese products that are on grocery store shelves in this city is Yves.

There is vegetable oil based margarine to replace butter.

Ener-G Foods has an egg replacement. Its ingredients are "Potato Starch, tapioca starch flour, leavening (calcium lactate [not derived from dairy], calcium carbonate, citric acid [corn derived]), cellulose gum, carbohydrate gum". Tapioca is the starch extracted from a plant called cassava.

Morningstar Farms is the brand name that bought Harvest Burgers from Green Giant. Their veggie pizza has cheese from real milk, but the rest sounds applicable.

I'm assuming grains will grow in a greenhouse on Mars. The soil may have to be prepared with bacteria and "pioneer" crops, but we should be able to quickly build a soil. I'm rather fond of barley, good for making malt. Malt is a key component in many meat substitutes; besides I'm rather fond of this bottled form of "barley soup". (brand name Guinness :;): )

Bill White · 2003-10-09 07:04:41

By the way, canola is a grain, it isn't a corn product. Corn oil is another type of oil.
Soy products can replace most dairy. Grocery stores have soy milk now. As I mentioned elsewhere there are also soy based cheese products, advertised as lactose free, or a casein product. The brand of veggie imitation meat and imitation cheese products that are on grocery store shelves in this city is Yves.
There is vegetable oil based margarine to replace butter.
Ener-G Foods has an egg replacement. Its ingredients are "Potato Starch, tapioca starch flour, leavening (calcium lactate [not derived from dairy], calcium carbonate, citric acid [corn derived]), cellulose gum, carbohydrate gum". Tapioca is the starch extracted from a plant called cassava.
Morningstar Farms is the brand name that bought Harvest Burgers from Green Giant. Their veggie pizza has cheese from real milk, but the rest sounds applicable.
I'm assuming grains will grow in a greenhouse on Mars. The soil may have to be prepared with bacteria and "pioneer" crops, but we should be able to quickly build a soil. I'm rather fond of barley, good for making malt. Malt is a key component in many meat substitutes; besides I'm rather fond of this bottled form of "barley soup". (brand name Guinness :;): )

Here you go Cindy, RobertDyck has found some dessert for you.

In all seriousness, I believe real cooking - - fashioning enjoyable meals from seemingly humble ingredients would be an essential tool of psychological self preservation for any permanent settlers. Its not luxury, its morale boosting. Hydrogen or methane gas grills or ovens would seem feasible for a settlement (if not MarsOne).

In any settlement, good natured "contests" could be held about growing herbs and spices and the best variety of vegetables and then cooking those in socially pleasing ways.

The idea of "a man, a can, some spam and a plan" won't appeal to very many people, IMHO, except perhaps for the first few missions.

Any idea what a reasonable daily calorie target should be? MarsDirect astronauts will be working strenuously but permanent settlers may well have a far more relaxed (and therefore boring) life.

RobertDyck · 2003-10-09 22:51:04

I'm told blueberries love poor, rocky soil with good drainage. They do prefer acid soil, not alkali, but you can bubble CO2 through water to create carbonic acid to acidify the soil. Arctic climates often grow little other than blueberries. They also need high organic matter in the soil, so the soil does have to be prepared. Low bush blueberries would be one crop for Mars.

Clover is an excellent nitrogen fixing plant. You might be able to keep honey bees in a greenhouse with clover. That would give clover honey as well as preparing the soil.

The lady I have been seeing suggested meal worms. Insects produce much more protein per unit mass of food than animals. Those who don't like eating insects can stick to a vegetarian diet. I'm told fried meal worms taste like nuts. I saw a reporter try fried meal worms, grasshoppers and scorpions. Cooking a scorpion denatures the poison. Her reaction showed meal worms taste good, grasshoppers were not to her taste, but you should have seen her face screw up when she tasted a scorpion. Scorpion may be safe once it's cooked, but it's apparently very bitter. Debbie also suggested breeding gerbils for food.

Farm animals take a lot of feed for a low amount of edible food. They also have a tendency to try to escape; you don't want your chickens to scratch or peck their way through your inflated greenhouse.

I think I'll stick to soy burgers, bread, margarine, veggie pizza, soy milk, blueberries, tapioca, honey, pancakes, soy bacon. Can you make omelettes from that egg substitute? You could grow sugar cane, but I think isolated chloroplasts would more efficiently produce pure sugar, starch, and pectin. Yeast could produce protein additives. There will always be vegetables like tomatoes, peas, green beans, bean sprouts, corn, lettuce, carrots, cucumbers, onions, green peppers, mushrooms. Grains like wheat, barley, white rice, and brown rice.

Barley and grapes can produce beer and wine. Carbohydrate from pea chloroplasts will produce 60% starch, 40% pectin; that can be fermented and distilled to produce vodka. Rice can produce saki.

"Maple flavour syrup" is made from 1 cup of golden yellow sugar (packed), 1 cup of boiling water, and 1/8 teaspoon of artificial maple extract. It yields 1 cup of syrup (it's denser than water). "Pancake syrup" doesn't even bother with the artificial extract. Golden yellow sugar is made from sugar cane. I think yellow sugar is less refined than white crystallized sugar, but the extra flavouring couldn't be easily added to sugar from isolated chloroplasts; pancake syrup would require sugar cane. McCormick brand Imitation Maple Extract consists of "Water, Caramel Color, Alcohol, Vanilla Extract (Vanilla Bean Extractives in Water, Alcohol, and Corn Syrup), Molasses Solids, Corn Syrup Solids, Natural and Artificial Flavors, Sugar, Sulfiting Agents, and Natural Extractives." So we would have to grow vanilla beans, sugar cane, and corn. "Sufiting Agents" is a preservative. "Natural and Artificial Flavors" and " Natural Extractives" are rather vague.

Pancake mix is 1 cup flour, 1 teaspoon baking powder, 1/2 teaspoon baking soda. Add 1 cup milk, 1 egg and beat the mixture to make batter. My father adds 1 tablespoon vegetable oil, but I skip the oil. It might be interesting to try pancakes made with soy milk and egg substitute.

You could plant a few apple and orange trees in a large greenhouse. Apples take 4 Earth years before they bear fruit, and require a greenhouse that is 5 meters tall plus a rather deep soil, but apple seeds are very small and easy to transport.

Peanuts: grow low so good for a greenhouse, and produce great peanut butter, dry roasted peanuts, in the shell, etc.

Coffee beans and cocoa beans: great for coffee and chocolate. Coffee trees take 5 Earth years before they produce a full crop, then produce for 15-20 years. Each tree produces 1 pound of coffee beans as an average crop. Cocoa trees require warmth (65+?F), lots of rain (80+ inches per year), shade, high humidity, and protection from wind. Controlled temperature, filtered light, high humidity, and calm air are easy to provide in a greenhouse on Mars. Cocoa trees grow as an "understory" tree in tropical rainforests, wild trees grow 50 feet tall. Commercially grown trees are pruned to make them easy to pick, keeping them down to 7.5 meters or 25 feet tall. Cocoa trees take 3-4 Earth years before their first crop, then shaded trees produce for 80 to 100 years. Both coffee and cocoa beans take a lot of processing before they are in the form you see in a grocery store. Coffee and chocolate will not be the first crops on Mars, but I think a permanent colony will grow them.

Palomar · 2003-10-10 05:20:16

Any idea what a reasonable daily calorie target should be? MarsDirect astronauts will be working strenuously but permanent settlers may well have a far more relaxed (and therefore boring) life.

*For an adult woman of my height and weight, I believe the intake of 1400 calories per day is the desired "weight management" amount. For the "average" (5' 10", 180 lb) adult male, I think it's 2000 - 2200 calories or thereabouts. I tried to find a calorie/weight/height chart on Google; no luck.

Robert writes: "but you should have seen her face screw up when she tasted a scorpion. Scorpion may be safe once it's cooked, but it's apparently very bitter."

*Yuck! That aside, is it wise to include in a hab or small colony nasty critters with poisonous stingers?

Robert: "Debbie also suggested breeding gerbils for food."

*Aw. Someone else at the message boards (not sure in this thread) suggested guinea pigs. I think of them as cute animals for pets...I couldn't eat them, unless literally starving.

Poor guinea pigs, everyone picks on them...

--Cindy

::EDIT:: I'm actually thinking that satisfying an aching sweet tooth may not be so difficult on Mars. Think of all the "official sponsors" of the Olympics. Surely some big-name candy makers, or bakers like Dolly Madison or Hostess will be vying for the enviable title of "Official Sponsor of the Mars Astronaut Team," etc., and will pay to ship sweets to the astronauts.

Bill White · 2003-10-10 08:44:29

::EDIT:: I'm actually thinking that satisfying an aching sweet tooth may not be so difficult on Mars. Think of all the "official sponsors" of the Olympics. Surely some big-name candy makers, or bakers like Dolly Madison or Hostess will be vying for the enviable title of "Official Sponsor of the Mars Astronaut Team," etc., and will pay to ship sweets to the astronauts.

Google tells me that eggs and milk both "powder" quite nicely. Find sponsors (Bis-quick or General Mills or the "Got Milk" people) to pay 100% of the cost to deliver these products in bulk - suitably branded, of course.

I currently believe finding sponsors to deliver "MiracleGro" in bulk could prove necessary. Good nitrogen fixing plants are worthless without access to the nitrogen to fix. Home Depot or any number of lawn and garden chains might well pay for delivery of their brands of plant food to the settlers. Then, the settlers will need to thoroughly recycle every nitrogen molecule they receive from Earth. Marsian CO2 and Marsian H20 solve the COH issues but N Mars needs N.

Trace elements? Use this approach. If it is learned that potassium is needed, add lots and lots of banana desserts to the astronauts MREs then mine the waste stream.

IMHO settlers must always think double duty or "two birds with one stone" - - an MRE is not only an emergency ration but its also an easy way to transport particularly useful substances and introduce them into the ecology.

= = =

How about this as a future term of endearment?

"Honey, I think you are worth your weight in ammonia!"

If Mars truly is nitrogen poor, some NH3 could prove itself worth more than gold.

RobertDyck · 2003-10-10 09:47:19

Mars atmosphere has 95.32% CO2, 2.7% nitrogen, 1.6% argon, 0.13% oxygen, 0.07% carbon monoxide, 0.03% water, 0.00025% neon, 0.00003% krypton, 0.000008% xenon, and 0.000003% ozone. The pressure is just under 7 millibars. The first step of preparing atmosphere for a greenhouse is to remove CO2; that is the left-overs from extracting CO2 for rocket fuel. Let's assume 95% of the carbon dioxide is removed and none of the carbon monoxide. Adding water to regolith will release oxygen, I did a rough calculation with a lot of assumptions to estimate 1.6 grams of oxygen per kilogram of Mars regolith. If that is so, then a 280m^3 greenhouse with 20 tonnes of regolith and pressurized to 5.00 psi will have 44.8% nitrogen, 26.5% argon, 22.3% oxygen, 2.24% CO2, and 1.16% carbon monoxide. That CO2 level is high for humans, but fine for plants. The carbon monoxide level would be deadly for humans, but fine for plants. Hopefully the CO2 extraction step will also extract carbon monoxide. This can be improved by also extracting argon. I haven't found a way to do that yet, but it is possible. Argon would be a great gas to fill between panes of windows or between two layers of an inflated greenhouse enclosure. Argon is a better heat insulator than air. Argon is inert so it is fine to breathe, but removing it from greenhouse atmosphere would proportionately increase nitrogen.

Palomar · 2003-10-10 12:00:13

Mars atmosphere has 95.32% CO2, 2.7% nitrogen, 1.6% argon, 0.13% oxygen, 0.07% carbon monoxide, 0.03% water, 0.00025% neon, 0.00003% krypton, 0.000008% xenon, and 0.000003% ozone. The pressure is just under 7 millibars. The first step of preparing atmosphere for a greenhouse is to remove CO2; that is the left-overs from extracting CO2 for rocket fuel. Let's assume 95% of the carbon dioxide is removed and none of the carbon monoxide. Adding water to regolith will release oxygen, I did a rough calculation with a lot of assumptions to estimate 1.6 grams of oxygen per kilogram of Mars regolith. If that is so, then a 280m^3 greenhouse with 20 tonnes of regolith and pressurized to 5.00 psi will have 44.8% nitrogen, 26.5% argon, 22.3% oxygen, 2.24% CO2, and 1.16% carbon monoxide. That CO2 level is high for humans, but fine for plants. The carbon monoxide level would be deadly for humans, but fine for plants. Hopefully the CO2 extraction step will also extract carbon monoxide. This can be improved by also extracting argon. I haven't found a way to do that yet, but it is possible. Argon would be a great gas to fill between panes of windows or between two layers of an inflated greenhouse enclosure. Argon is a better heat insulator than air. Argon is inert so it is fine to breathe, but removing it from greenhouse atmosphere would proportionately increase nitrogen.

*And you know this because you've BEEN THERE ALREADY, right Mr. Spock?

Er...hahahaha, I meant "Robert"...

Yeah! "Robert" -- that's what I meant to say.

::flashes Vulcan Hand Salute then ducks quickly out of room::

--Cindy

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#101 2003-08-15 08:25:50

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#102 2003-08-15 08:50:31

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#103 2003-08-15 09:09:15

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#104 2003-08-15 09:22:25

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#105 2003-08-15 10:13:53

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#106 2003-08-15 10:25:29

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#107 2003-08-15 11:46:17

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#108 2003-08-15 12:41:46

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#109 2003-08-15 15:05:53

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#110 2003-08-15 19:04:02

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#111 2003-08-27 21:11:07

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#112 2003-09-27 14:13:10

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#113 2003-10-07 23:25:48

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#114 2003-10-07 23:42:08

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#115 2003-10-08 13:15:06

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#116 2003-10-08 13:24:13

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#117 2003-10-08 13:43:18

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#118 2003-10-08 14:06:19

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#119 2003-10-08 17:26:29

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#120 2003-10-09 07:04:41

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#121 2003-10-09 22:51:04

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#122 2003-10-10 05:20:16

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#123 2003-10-10 08:44:29

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#124 2003-10-10 09:47:19

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

#125 2003-10-10 12:00:13

Re: Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

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