Housekeeping

SpaceNut · 2021-06-12 10:43:05

Thanks for your first link as it held the link to table structure but the search link failed so tries the forum software http://fluxbb.org/ and it failed to come up in Ie 11. now checking other browsers.

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-12 11:24:54

For SpaceNut ... I've reported Fluxbb.org is offline. I first discovered the outage immediately after GW Johnson first reported problems. I found references to the exact error message reported in other web sites, but fluxbb.org itself was offline.

This has happened before. I suspect fluxbb.org is the target of vigorous hacker attacks because many (if not most) of the members are hacker grade individuals. I am a member in order to seek help when it is needed, and help has been both provided and reported here on several occasions.

PS ... we're in Housekeeping, so I thought I'd add I'm thinking of attempting a 400 username run this evening, after 22:00 local time. That would be a record run if it succeeds. The 300 run last night is encouraging.

Update next day at 7:40 Local Time: The run started at 22:00 (or so) and at the rate of 40 ID's per hour it might have lasted until 8 AM. However, performance is slightly better than the estimate of 1 minute and 30 seconds. The count was 8998 a moment ago, and 9000 is in sight.

Bingo! 9,000 showed up at 7:43 local time. This was a record setting run of 400 ID's in under 10 hours, without a halt.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-06-13 05:46:06)

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-13 06:48:04

For SpaceNut ... This record of 400 Usernames may stand for a while ...

Completed Sequence for ID: 9000

Total Command Lines found: 110
Total input Lines in script: 337
Total input Lines in data: 460
Number of ID's processed: 400
Starting Number: 8601
Last Number of Run: 9000
Summary for Web Automation Report for 06-13-2021 at 08:34:14
Average time of Loop from Main form: 00:01:27
41 Date Exceptions were recorded.
Total time of Processing: 09:39:18
Total time Program was Active: 10:31:14

There are just 59 names left in the Verified Candidates list.

I'll ask WBA to polish them off this evening.

Then I'll look to see if you've had a chance to add any more spammers to the Bans table.

***

Yesterday I took a first look at how to integrate Virtual Ports into the existing WBA RS232 procedure. You may recall that I plugged in a Microsoft RS232 component that was optimized to work with modems. It was willing to work with the USB serial port adapter cable, but balked when asked to work with Virtual Ports, which do NOT look (or behave) like physical ports.

In starting to think about the situation, I realized that Virtual Ports come in pairs, so the interaction the Microsoft programmers were going for in the modem days is possible in this new environment. It ** should ** be possible to open both sides of a Virtual Port pair within the same program, and send data back and forth between the two sides.

I'm hoping to try an experiment along those lines later today.

*** Update at 14:09 local time .... the Bans table is 106 pages. The TestID section is 2381 items. Difference is (on the order of) 3000 ...

Assuming you've been adding in the lower part of the alphabet, there should be plenty of candidates to scoop up the next time I go looking.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-06-13 12:12:23)

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-13 19:38:50

For SpaceNut ... now that the Internet is back up here, I'll set up a short run to exhaust the last 59 usernames in the Verified Candidates list.

Tomorrow, if conditions permit, I run a script to collect the usernames in the Bans table once again.

I'll remove the TestID's and everything in the back part of the alphabet, and there will still be a couple thousand usernames to work with.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-06-13 19:40:25

The A's are fully converted in the user list and you are correct that there are plenty of new candidates to convert until you get to the T's once more like in 50 plus pages of what has been added to the banned list.

Started to do the unban tonight at 6701 for the first 50 so far.
I see that the last id is 9000 so plenty of homework to go through....

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-14 05:53:14

For SpaceNut re #1255

Thanks for all the work you've been doing to prepare candidates for WBA!

And thanks for tackling the backlog of partially finished ID's for new users.

The short run to finish the current list of Verified Candidates finished without incident.

I'll start the process of collecting all the new candidates today.

Mars_B4_Moon has really been adding both content and value recently! It is good to see older topics refreshed, and new ones started.

***
Just FYI ... Dr. Dartnell's policy at the Knowledge Forum is a bit different from yours ... he still allows spammers to apply for membership, but he never grants it. The result is that the husks of their visit remain, with just enough information to reveal their advertising intentions. I note with amazement how some human beings are using their time on Earth attempting to exploit the frailties and weaknesses of their fellows.

Your policy seems to me much more humane. And meanwhile, the handiwork of the spammers is slowly but surely converted to something potentially useful.

***
GW Johnson will be testing his login using a computer at a remote location (in McGregor, Texas) today! I'm hoping the test is successful, and that eventually he will come into regular contact with a new (or gently used) system.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-14 07:21:59

For SpaceNut .... collection of the next set of candidates is underway ...

Total Command Lines found: 12
Total input Lines in script: 52
Number of ID's processed: 105
Starting Number: 1
Last Number of Run: 105
Summary for Web Automation Report for 06-14-2021 at 09:18:37
Average time of Loop from Main form: 00:00:21
Total time of Processing: 00:36:24
Total time Program was Active: 00:44:50
EOJ Msg#1: Successful Run. No Warning Errors.

The resulting text will be processed in a series of steps to yield the Verified Candidates for the next update series.

Update at 9:29 local time ... 2126 Usernames came out of the first pass ...

I'll run them through the Verify Script to find usernames missing from the Users table.

There shouldn't be any since you've been adding new candidates, but there might be left overs from earlier times.

Update at 9:36 local time ... the Verify run is started ... It will take (on the order of) 12 hours.

Output will be a list of any Usernames which are present in the Bans table but NOT present in the Users table.

Those names will be removed from the file and the Candidates run will find those with Zero Posts.

Update at Noon local time ... each Verify process is taking 21.56 seconds, so the total (expected) run time is 12.7 hours so ETA is 21.7 (or so)

***
There was no news from GW Johnson on the Portal, but it is only 11 AM Houston time.

Last visit: Yesterday 11:37:16

Update at 14:00 local time >> 13:00 Houston time:

Last visit: Yesterday 11:37:16

I'll check the Portal to see if there is anything from GW Johnson there ...

Nada!

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-06-14 12:05:53)

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-14 08:40:08

For kbd512 ...

I've been conversing with GW Johnson via the Portal recently, as he goes through the steps to recover the ability to post on the forum.

In his last series of posts, he gave me a history lesson on McGregor, Texas (as well as his own biography, which is already covered in the forum archives).

So! My question to you is ... do you think there might be support in Texas to establish Starbase Academy in McGregor?

Starbase itself is already established on the coast, and the academy has to be ** somewhere **.

GW Johnson may be (I repeat ** may be **) qualified to stand as first President of such an academy. I'm not thinking about an elite school such as might be found on the coasts. I'm thinking about providing the thousands of space qualified professionals who will operate the Large Ships RobertDyck is thinking about, as well as the space craft of all nations plying the Solar System in years to come.

A note to Elon Musk from the right office holder in Texas could put the concept into motion.

(th)

kbd512 · 2021-06-14 11:21:52

tahanson43206,

I'm sure there would be support for the idea, but whether or not there would be a pool of qualified young applicants who are willing to undergo the training that provides the mental and physical conditioning necessary to survive in space, long-term, is an entirely different question. My own methods of training, for example, would likely be very unpopular with "free thinkers" who most likely don't want to submit themselves to the type of personal discipline required to assure their survival and completion of their mission, no matter what nature or human activity happens to throw at them.

We need to take ordinary people, the same way our military does, and transform them into a cohesive unit capable of performing complex tasks under extreme duress. To be honest, the training is mostly mental in nature, as was my training in US Navy boot camp (there's a heavy emphasis on the notion of right vs wrong, never giving up, constantly being tested to contend with any weaknesses, and working together, whether you like or agree with the other people you're working with or not), but physical conditioning is also necessary. We're going to need people who can rally around the idea of expanding our reach into the cosmos, same as young men and women do around service to our nation, and to have that level of commitment to the idea. Along the way, assuming you learn the correct lesson (I was fortunate to have drill instructors who explained what the lesson was after they taught it- never underestimate the importance of understanding what the lesson should be since students will often reach their own conclusions without the benefit of truly understanding, you find your own humanity, in addition to experiencing the best and worst aspects of humanity (the human condition). After all, this is ultimately a human endeavor, subject to human triumphs and failings.

I can't speak to what GW is or isn't willing to do. I will never be a President of anything, but I would caution anyone about conducting a training program that doesn't teach morality, ethics, human psychology under duress, identifying and dealing with personal weaknesses, and working together despite personal differences. Those are fundamental requirements for any training program that pushes humanity into immediately fatal environment like Earth's oceans or space.

Our military boot camps are actually far too short to break bad habits, and instead rely upon the "shock value" of the cultural change. That may be acceptable in the short term, but not over the long term. What I saw out in the fleet caused me to believe that a greater level of indoctrination was required to actually remember and apply the lessons. I had the benefit of a martial education prior to ever setting foot at Recruit Training Command, Great Lakes. We didn't have ranks or titles in the martial arts organization I was a part of prior to joining the Navy, nor did having standing within the organization afford any special privileges- only more work and more responsibility, but that organization was largely run by former military personnel with combat experience in Viet Nam, and mostly attracted highly disciplined people who could be counted upon to do the right thing, even when nobody else was watching. Those who failed to behave as instructed were politely asked to leave and their money was refunded. That's why I was able to complete my 6 years of service while I watched so many others, even people I considered to be better suited, fail long before their enlistment was complete. I didn't instantly transform into someone who was disciplined, it was something learned in childhood over many years, and carried forward into military service. I knew and was friends with some of those people outside of the martial arts organization, so I had the opportunity to see that they were the same person, with or without their uniform on, with or without anyone else watching them.

There are three fundamental questions that this training must determine:

1. Are they absolutely committed to the mission?

This is something that can't be indoctrinated into them. No amount of culture will ever change the will of the person in question to persevere.

2. Do they demonstrate respect and devotion to their fellow shipmates in all matters, irrespective of their personal differences?

Again, this is something that can't be indoctrinated, but it must be rigorously evaluated throughout the course of training and during actual operations. How do they treat others? Do they look down upon others, or do they show compassion and respect out of their innate sense of right and wrong (this is learned at such a young age that nothing we can do in a practical sense will change their socialization abilities)? Do they become resentful towards authority or their peers or lash out at them when life doesn't go their way, or can they develop constructive mental defense mechanisms required to cope with other people and the environment, despite constantly being subjected to life-and-death situations?

3. Will they refuse to give up, even if no matter what they do, the outcome remains unchanged?

How well do they handle failure and personal loss? Does it create misery or resentment, normally followed by deep depression, or an unshakable resolve to better next time? We will never achieve perfection so long as we remain human, yet we can achieve excellence in all that we do. Most people have a fundamental character flaw that makes them think it's possible to solve any problem, if only they're smart enough / fast enough / etc, but what they need to be taught is that at some point, we will all fail, and that how we deal with that failure has far greater implications than the mere fact that we failed at some specific task.

No matter what anyone else thinks, part of every bit of their training needs to be psychological in nature. The wrong attitudes or beliefs will cause this mission to fail every bit as surely as a major design flaw in a piece of critical equipment. What I ultimately learned from the military is not that I need or even want to "break people down to build them back up", but that I need to start with young men and women who generally have the required personality attributes for further training, and then to mold those people into a cohesive unit wherein all members implicitly trust the other members of the organization to do their job, so that there is never a question about relative worth of any given task or authority granted to those placed in leadership roles. In my structure, nobody has absolute authority, same as the US Naval Nuclear Power Program. Instead, knowledge plus experience grants authority for decision making, not ranks or titles.

There will be plenty of book knowledge imparted along the way towards the goal, but that sort of knowledge needs to be distilled down to something that can be taught to anyone who is willing to learn. If the military can teach nuclear physics to people who are still technically children, without a major failure over the course of more than half a century of operations, then we can teach space physics the same way. Anytime the students become too comfortable with what they think they know, the consequences of complacency and hubris need to be graphically demonstrated, thus the requirement that they continually expand their knowledge and experience, even without the application of an outside force compelling them to develop their knowledge. The military's answer to that problem is never-ending testing, and that may be the only practical way to accomplish that goal.

If you give me recruits who have the drive to succeed at any personal cost and the personal constitution to never stop fighting for each other, then there's very little that the team cannot accomplish. I'd rather go to war with those people, against any enemy, other humans or nature itself, rather than people with all the book knowledge imaginable, but none of the other personal qualities that make humanity, as a whole, so successful. It's a form of tribalism with an extraordinarily good reason behind it. Anyway... This type of training is universal. No special type of ship is required for it to be applicable.

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-14 12:02:07

For kbd512 ....

First, thank you for your thoughtful and detailed consideration of my opening proposal.

SearchTerm:Academy Space Starfleet Moral and Physical qualifications - selection - training - testing

Actually, to my mind, what you've described is StarFleet Academy.

The StarBase Academy I have in mind is nothing like that, or if there is any similarity, it is purely coincidental.

A ** StarBase** academy would have the purpose of preparing young people for the vocations (Jobs in SpaceNut parlance) that are going to become available in the thousands in the years ahead, and the tens of thousands in decades to come.

You can see what I have in mind by looking at the writings of GW Johnson ... his concerns are (as I understand them) caring for others so much that errors that could cause injury or death are avoided.

I was ** specifically ** thinking about navigation skills ... People able to navigate a cargo vessel (or occasionally a passenger vessel) are going to be needed in great numbers, and they don't need to be elite storm troopers such as will (no doubt) graduate from StarFleet Academy.

I believe (until informed otherwise) that GW Johnson could hire people able to provide the instruction that young people would need to become competent navigators in the Solar System. They don't need to have command qualifications. They need to be able to point a vessel in the right direction, and pulse the thrusters for exactly the right time to achieve the mission objective.

All that said, your vision is one that deserves to be remembered and studied, and I have tried to insure it is found in future when someone wants to re-read it.

(th)

GW Johnson · 2021-06-14 15:02:26

Testing testing

GW

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-14 15:12:45

For GW Johnson re #1261

Bravo! Thanks for the good news!

(th)

kbd512 · 2021-06-14 16:42:09

tahanson43206,

The Necessity of Leadership to Seamanship
It's profound hubris to believe that leadership skills are not required for hazarding an interplanetary transport containing hundreds of people, many millions of miles from home. This isn't about my vision or beliefs or a gut feeling, it's about what's been proven to be a requirement for successfully hazarding a ship when outside support won't be forthcoming. The people aboard the ship need to work together as a team, but that doesn't happen on-the-fly, and there is no "reset button" if you make a mistake. We don't expect everyone who goes through basic training to become the Captain of a ship, nor do we expect them to know every aspect of seamanship, but we do train everyone as if one day they will be Captain, because we can't know ahead of time when circumstances dictate that they fill that role.

Cursory Knowledge vs Experience
You also need to give some consideration to who you're training. Many of these kids have never experienced any significant failure, because their parents and teachers never allowed them to. If you discount the need to address the human aspects of this mission, you're doing your recruits a disservice. Your idea for what this training should be is akin to teaching someone the motor skills to physically fly a plane without also teaching them about how local atmospheric conditions can affect the performance of their aircraft. This is not something you want to "learn about" for the first time on a hot day, as your plane struggles to climb fast enough to clear trees just beyond the end of the runway.

The Difference Between a Duty and a Job
A job is something you go to for some set number of hours before returning home. When you're underway aboard a ship, there's no such thing as "that's someone else's job", assuming you want to live. We all have roles that we play and must implicitly trust the other crew members to play their roles, but we don't get to stop playing those roles merely because the hands moved to a certain position on the clock. That's how the duties of a dedicated crew differ from a collection of loosely associated time card punchers. It doesn't matter in the slightest that I was trained to be a Radioman. If my ship requires a firefighter or a garbage man, then that's what I will become to assure that my ship continues on its voyage as intended. This concern is directly related to accomplishing the mission with minimal loss of life.

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-14 18:35:04

For kbd512 .... I was looking for support for the idea of proposing an education institution to prepare workers for careers in support of the future development of space transportation and infrastructure construction.

Not ONE of the positions I have in mind has anything to do with the military, or with the mind set that is required for a successful career in the military.

What I am thinking about would be similar to whatever exists to support training of personnel for careers in the merchant marine. However, MOST positions needed will be here on Earth, NOT in space.

The vast majority of flights will be automated, and controlled from the ground (or possibly from orbital stations) just the way ALL flights are controlled now.

To try and get this conversation on some kind of a sensible track, here is a snippet from a web site set up to guide candidates for the Merchant Marine:

https://www.mitags.org/become-merchant-marine/

Why Become a Merchant Mariner?
You should become a mariner for a variety of different reasons.
You want to see the world: Mariners work all over the globe and travel to destinations that many people never see, even on vacations.
You enjoy forming close relationships: Teamwork is indispensable in the Merchant Marine. Living and working in close quarters with fellow crew members allows you to form strong bonds as in few other lines of work.
You want to develop new skills: Being part of the Merchant Marine requires strong communication skills, resourcefulness and self-discipline. If you succeed in the Merchant Marine, you can build a stable career wherever you choose, either by working your way up the ranks or when you leave for another job.
You want to start working right away: Unlike many other fields, the Merchant Marine accepts applicants without college degrees. For those who want to jump straight into work, an entry-level position with the Merchant Marine is an appealing option.
How to Become a Merchant Mariner
Most prospective mariners must typically undergo certification with the U.S. Coast Guard. The following are some steps you can take if you are interested in becoming a merchant mariner.
Choose your desired career path.
Apply for a TWIC.
Get a physical and drug screening.
Apply for an MMC
Participate in an Apprenticeship program.
Choose Your Desired Career Path
Mariners can choose from among different career paths within the Merchant Marine. The three possible options are the engineering, deck and steward’s departments. Prospective mariners should decide on their intended career paths early, since your chosen career path will determine your requirements for the merchant mariner credential (MMC).

Engine department: Members of the engine department include engineers, electricians, mechanics and oilers. They make sure the machinery on a vessel operates correctly.
Deck department: Members of the deck department include merchant seamen and lifeboatmen. They assist with the day-to-day functions of the ship.
Steward’s department: Members of the steward’s department provide the ship’s food.
Apply for a TWIC
Before applying for a prospective mariner must first apply for a Transportation Worker’s Identification Credential (TWIC). The TWIC indicates that the applicant presents no security threat. To receive a TWIC, an applicant must pass rigorous FBI and Department of Homeland Security background checks, which typically include an immigration status check, a criminal background check and a terrorist watch list check.
Get a Physical and Drug Screening
To become a mariner, an applicant will have to take a physical and undergo drug screening. Passing these tests is critical. Conditions such as heart disease and specific psychiatric disorders may be disqualifying for those who don’t take medications to control them.
Apply for an MMC
For the MMC, applicants will have to show proof of having passed drug tests and medical examinations, including tests of their physical fitness, vision and hearing. They must also provide proof of their citizenship and required experience.

The points you made in post #1263 would seem applicable to many careers on Earth right now.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-06-14 18:52:29

Both programs would create and generate the working to astronaut class of settlers that mars and the moon will need.

Those getting engineering plus with trades help in not designing something that can not be repaired where it sets....

Did the unban of id's 6751 through 6800 and they are in the user list…

Great to see that GW Johnson has resolved the computer problem....

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-14 20:45:21

For SpaceNut re Verify Run ...

Today's run looked at 2126 usernames at the rate of one every 21.5 seconds.

42 names were NoT found in the User's table. These can be manually removed from the Bans table.

Query Text Requested was Not Found: terThomasmup
Query Text Requested was Not Found: terThomasFluts
Query Text Requested was Not Found: terThomasfex
Query Text Requested was Not Found: terThomasErode
Query Text Requested was Not Found: terThomasBarr
Query Text Requested was Not Found: terThomas3886
Query Text Requested was Not Found: terThimonW
Query Text Requested was Not Found: tertheresaoe3
Query Text Requested was Not Found: terthepcsoft
Query Text Requested was Not Found: tertheelix1
Query Text Requested was Not Found: terthanh03041993
Query Text Requested was Not Found: tertgsccpte
Query Text Requested was Not Found: tertfkzazvs
Query Text Requested was Not Found: svusafmeitagcth
Query Text Requested was Not Found: Stanislawa
Query Text Requested was Not Found: sluclict
Query Text Requested was Not Found: Sanarb
Query Text Requested was Not Found: Rshop2018
Query Text Requested was Not Found: ronnykingp
Query Text Requested was Not Found: RobertQH
Query Text Requested was Not Found: PlimusO
Query Text Requested was Not Found: OzmafaKix
Query Text Requested was Not Found: MysteryBan
Query Text Requested was Not Found: MichaelSuery
Query Text Requested was Not Found: michael29
Query Text Requested was Not Found: mark0211
Query Text Requested was Not Found: lpascher11
Query Text Requested was Not Found: JohnnieWhiff
Query Text Requested was Not Found: Johnnierog
Query Text Requested was Not Found: johndupe123fdr
Query Text Requested was Not Found: ieltsproxy23
Query Text Requested was Not Found: hopsterO
Query Text Requested was Not Found: HiramNoill
Query Text Requested was Not Found: Gmith56Q
Query Text Requested was Not Found: General?ontractorfotly
Query Text Requested was Not Found: Gaunormm
Query Text Requested was Not Found: Gmith56Q
Query Text Requested was Not Found: General?ontractorfotly
Query Text Requested was Not Found: Gaunormm
Query Text Requested was Not Found: Ericagijo
Query Text Requested was Not Found: Devwbro34
Query Text Requested was Not Found: DavidHip

Update at 23:49 local time ... manually removing the missing Usernames is time consuming.

I remembered having to remove many of them the last go-round. I hope we can delete them somewhere along the line.

After the missing items were removed there are 2084 Usernames, but there are lots of duplicates.

I'll use the spreadsheet conditional formatting tool to find those tomorrow.

After ** that ** I'll run the Zero Posts script to yield the Verified Candidates list.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-06-15 07:00:09)

kbd512 · 2021-06-15 00:45:19

tahanson43206,

I'm not trying to upset or offend your sensibilities, but I get the sense as through that's what I've done. I'm responding with the notion that this is a serious proposal that someone actually intends to use to train people whose lives would be in danger if they weren't properly trained, rather than some type of space-related LARP-ing exercise like NASA's Space Camp for kids.

We spent a grand total of 1 day in Navy Boot Camp learning about and shooting guns, less than 2 hours of actually handling firearms if you want to get really technical, because that's how long it took for everyone in our division to both practice and then pass a basic marksmanship qualification test to the satisfaction of our instructor. Apart from re-qualification, standing security watches, passing through active war zones, and CBRN drills, that was the extent of my "military-only" training. At least part of every single day in boot camp was spent in a classroom or simulator learning about topics such as:

1. The Uniform Code of Military Justice, Maritime Law, recognizing lawful versus unlawful orders, acceptable treatment of others, acceptable behavior before the enemy
2. Recognizing all of the various insignia worn by naval personnel or other service branches, and what it means (so you know the difference between an engineer and electronics technician on sight if you need a specific type of problem solved; this topic also applies to civilian mariners who wear insignia to let other crew members know at a glance what their specialty is)
3. Firefighting techniques (this "simulator" is a steel compartment, that looks exactly like a mainspace compartment of a real ship, with a fire intentionally set inside of it that's based upon diesel fuel or rags / wood / trash or electrical equipment or metals), the use of firefighting equipment, and fire prevention
4. Communications and passing detailed instructions to other crew members in written, verbal, and hand signal forms
5. Navigation, the use of traditional naval navigational instruments and maps, and the use of computers in shipboard tasks
6. First Aid, how to treat casualties to prevent further injuries, and how to improvise when advanced medical care is not available
7. Ship repair work such as pipe and hull patching, securing power to damaged electrical equipment, operating various types of pumps
8. Prioritization in problem solving, delegating responsibility to subordinates, and general planning
9. Human psychology in isolation, how to handle failure or loss, and suicide prevention
10. The history of the US Navy and understanding its past failures, so as not to repeat them

Those first two topics are clearly military-related, although maritime law applies to all mariners. The rest are related to the basic knowledge required to survive at sea.

After basic training, you attend an "A School" where you learn specialist knowledge related to whatever you enlisted to do. In my case, I attended Radioman A School to work on communications equipment. Other sailors worked on record keeping, store keeping, electronics, engines, aircraft, damage control, culinary school, etc. After that, you report to your first command, where you're taught about your specific class of ship. From there, you can apply to "C Schools" or other temporary assignments where you're taught more specialized knowledge. In my case, I was subsequently sent TDY to other ships and a shore facility that communicated with all ships in the Pacific Fleet so that I would know how they interpret what we ask them to do and what they had to work with. Later on, I attended a Communications Server C School (ship-specific equipment not used outside of the US Navy and a handful of Allied Navies) and then a LAN Administration C School that was taught by civilian instructors who guided students through coursework related to network administration (configuring and administrating servers / routers / switches / firewalls). After a series of weekly written and oral tests as you progress through each school (both A and C Schools), the school ends with a practical exam where you have to "configure from scratch" in a specified period of time, then the instructors sabotage your work in various ways, whereupon you have another set amount of time to resolve whatever problems they've created in your network if you want to graduate.

Does any of that sound as if it's only applicable to military ships, or is it applicable to other types of ships as well?

Do you imagine that a fire cares at all that the only thing you've been trained to do is to serve as a ship's steward or navigator?

The answer to that question has been stuffed into enough body bags to force a rethink, which is why every sailor who passes through basic training, enlisted or officer, is taught basic firefighting, casualty treatment and evacuation, etc, and is constantly drilled in those activities thereafter. When your ship is on fire, there are no spectators. The ocean is ambivalent as to whether or not a sailor knows how to swim, but if your ship capsizes, you're not liable to find the training environment conducive to learning after being tossed in the drink.

Case in point:
One of the very first watches I ever stood was fire watch. I had a civilian welder working on our ship who had been welding on ships longer than I'd been alive at that point. About four hours into his work, just after lunch if memory serves, he set our ship on fire, and then he accidentally set himself on fire because he clearly didn't know what to do to put the fire out, nor was he cognizant enough of what was happening to step aside until I physically pulled him away from the fire. Since I had the equipment, training, and prior use of CO2 extinguishers on real fires, I put the fire out on the interior of our ship's hull and his arm, about 3 seconds after it began. Maybe he would've eventually been successful, or maybe he would've died there or been severely burned. Incidents like that were the exact reason for our firefighting training. Otherwise simple issues to resolve, such as that incident, have killed scores of sailors aboard ships. I know futurists are very enamored with robotics, but the vast majority of things that are supposed to be fully automated simply aren't. When, not if, things go wrong, then someone needs to have the training and experience to deal with the problem.

I've actually interacted with people in the US Merchant Marine during my time in the Navy, since they assist with resupplying our ships at sea in most cases. Apart from very specialized knowledge directly related to operating a warship, I don't see a significant difference in training or operating requirements. They wear the same uniforms, their sailors hold rank for officers or ratings for enlisted men and women, and they follow the same customs and traditions, same as the US Navy.

So, I have to ask, how is what I just described not akin to what you learn in the US Merchant Marine?

There seems to be almost open hostility towards the idea that military style training has value, yet the US Coast Guard, US Merchant Marine, and US Navy are merely different aspects of our naval heritage. I'm not suggesting that we try to emulate absolutely everything the military does, as this is a civilian endeavor not directed at fighting a war. However, the dismissive attitudes towards the people that civilians rely upon during times of disaster are a bit puzzling to me. Every person aboard an interplanetary transport ship is in a constant battle with nature, whether we acknowledge that fact or not, so it would pay to apply some of that hard-won knowledge and experience to the task of hazarding vessels in adverse environments. My advice is to incorporate the good aspects of military discipline, leadership, and devotion to duty, but to discard the parts of that training related to fighting wars.

You owe it to yourself to at least scan through to see which parts of this you think are related to war versus hazarding a ship at sea:

US Navy Education and Training Command - Basic Military Training Core Competencies April 2019

There are clearly some fundamental differences between operating a ship at sea versus deep space, but I'm guessing we don't have the luxury of sufficient funding to send people into deep space to conduct training missions, so an ocean-going vessel is the next best thing. A small retired diesel submarine, properly outfitted, would be a great analog for navigation exercises for the final exam. It's a real ship, not a mock-up of one, it moves in three dimensions, it doesn't stop moving merely because you shut off the engines, much like a real spacecraft, it requires accurate navigation to move through a navigation course, fire is a real versus imaginary threat, thus a competent crew who can perform on demand is required to hazard the vessel.

Classroom instruction and computer-based simulations would obviously be used first, same as they are in our military services, but then you end the course with a practical demonstration of ship hazarding skills aboard an actual ship, firefighting using real fires started in a controlled environment, and movement of casualties through an obstacle course resembling a shipboard environment. If you can't afford to operate realistic training aids in this manner, as compared to the expense associated with operating actual spacecraft, then there's no point to training thousands of recruits because you lack the funding to conduct proper training, much less actual operations. With an annual operating budget of $20M or so, you can provide high quality and realistic training for a thousand people or so. That's $20K per student, and right in line with military basic training costs. You should expect a fairly high attrition rate. My division began basic training with 180 recruits. 83 actually graduated. A little over half of the basically trained sailors that I attended Radioman A School with graduated. The rest were either dropped on request from training because they couldn't keep up in class and went to the fleet as undesignated deck seamen or were dismissed from military service for various reasons.

Put these kids in a steel can for about a month, and I'm guessing you'll find out who's heart isn't in it rather quickly. You don't need a real ship for that. I'm guessing that SpaceX can provide a completely realistic mock-up for pocket change. If they can't deal with that, then there's no hope of them merely surviving the voyage to Mars, let alone living in a steel can for the rest of their natural life, and no point to spending more time and money training them for a task they're psychologically incapable of performing. This is one aspect of the mission that no amount of advertising or fantasizing about futurism can paper over, and why you need realistic basic training.

Remove all military-specific references and use whatever other terminology that suits your sensibilities, but know that the survival of your recruits depends upon their ability to perform those basic seamanship tasks that they won't have the luxury of delegating to specially trained personnel in most cases.

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-15 07:18:20

For kbd512 re #1267

This post is reserved for a time (hopefully no later than today) when I can study your post more carefully.

I am willing to be persuaded on the general tone of your detailed reply here. My opening gambit was based upon a simple premise ... the space industry of years immediately ahead is going to need a LOT of people able to navigate automated space craft, and GW Johnson (** may **) have the right mix of experience and ability to set up a school to supply them, and McGregor, Texas is a particularly likely place for such an institution.

Because of ** your ** background (experience and training) you see the potential for my opening gambit as a training site for people who will actually travel in and operate space going vessels. I was NOT expecting to be pulled quite so rapidly in that direction.

The need for trained personnel to support space operations ON EARTH is now and will be for many decades far greater than is the minuscule need for crew or officers for RobertDyck's Large Ship or any other smaller vessel that might head to Mars this century.

My vision of this facility is "StarBASE" Academy ... NOT StarFLEET academy. The number of people who operate a base is now and will be for many years FAR greater than the number who participate in the fleet. Those folks do NOT need the same level of vetting and training that the onboard crew will need.

There exist a great number of fine, well established institutions to turn out officer grade individuals for the space trade ... The military academies are natural sources for people suited for those positions, and (as you point out) the Merchant Marine academies (I don't know how many there are) would seem a good fit to be adapted for the space trade.

It is entirely possible that the energy you have invested in recent posts can be translated into momentum to create an institution better suited for the needs of coming decades than is/was my opening gambit.

If you want to see your vision come to pass, and if you can incorporate the training of navigators for the automated vehicles that exist now and will be the far greater part of the Mars/Earth trade for ** ever ** into your concept, then I can imagine adapting to the flow and supporting the larger vision.

If you can translate that energy into momentum to persuade Texas legislators and investors to endorse the concept and cause actual steps to occur to make it happen in the next year or two, then it will have lived up to it's potential.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-06-15 07:19:56)

kbd512 · 2021-06-15 10:07:29

tahanson43206,

Apologies. I misunderstood what you were after. My goals behind training these people as such, was to crew ships going to other planets and bases on the moon or Mars. We didn't change basic training merely because many of the sailors who graduated would initially staff shore bases. Eventually, every sailor would be required to perform sea duty aboard a ship. In my case, that was immediately after basic training and schooling to operate communications equipment. Physical fitness, fighting fires, and handling medical emergencies were universal issues, for example. Responsibility and devotion to duty are every bit as applicable to any task set before naval personnel. However, for people who will spend their entire careers at shore facilities, I can see the value in gearing training towards that reality and reducing training costs.

Anyone who is actually going to Mars is going there aboard a ship and will spend a significant period of time in deep space, far away from anyone who could potentially help them if their ship suffers a casualty. After they arrive, their basic living environment hasn't changed one iota. They're effectively still aboard a ship, albeit a stationary one like the ones in dry dock. Apart from crashing into the surface of a planet, all other dangers are still there at all times. That firefighting and medical training will inevitably be used at some point, because accidents happen, especially during base construction.

We don't merely want people from the existing military academies to crew these ships and bases specifically because these are civilian ships supporting a commercial endeavor, and they're spaceships at that, so we want our training curriculum geared towards those realities. What we do want is to take the good aspects of military style training and to apply that to crewing these ships and bases operating far from home. Beyond that, there is no StarBase without a StarFleet to take people and cargo there.

The Officer Corps should arrive at basic training with a technical degree of some kind, which means scientists, engineers, and medical professionals who have already graduated from college. They'll attend a basic training course for officers, what we referred to in the military as "90 day wonders" (personnel organization and task management applied to the same tasks, so a different line of work). Again, we're not trying to get these people to fight anyone, so anyone who wants to go fight should join the military instead, as they no doubt will do. This is an alternative to military service that embodies the ideals of service and also serves the interests of our nation, but in a civil capacity.

As far as persuading Texas legislators is concerned, it would require a petition signed by enough residents to make it happen. We need to figure out how to sell this to people. It's like the military, so your son or daughter learns responsibility, devotion to duty, and respect for others, except we're not training your child to mass murder other people and won't be subjecting them to the horror show of war, so they don't come back totally messed up, psychologically speaking, for the rest of their life. That seems like a reasonably good selling point, don't you think?

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-15 10:32:16

For kbd512 re #1269

Thanks for another thoughtful post! Having just read it once, while in the middle of activities here, I'm going to limit my reply to this ...

I'm coming away from the first scan with a bit of a lift .... we are approaching this concept from such different angles it will take some effort to arrive at a consensus that can deliver results.

"Results" in this case, is a ** sold ** public, preferably in Texas, willing to go to bat for ambition on the scale of Elon Musk.

Neither of us is going to get ** anywhere ** without buy-in from GW Johnson. And while there is some overlap between what I have learned from the writings of GW Johnson about education of people for technical fields and your point of view, there may not be a lot of overlap.

GW Johnson is currently incommunicado, because his own laptop went to an early retirement ceremony, and his wife's computer is (apparently) inhabited by goblins.

I am hoping GW Johnson is able to find a replacement system at some point.

My sense of the state of the human race (and specifically the US population) is that the time is almost ** perfect ** for an initiative along these lines.

You ** still ** seem to me to be thinking about StarFLEET, and I am most definitely thinking about StarBASE.

The vast VAST majority of people who will be involved in the space enterprise are going to be on Earth, and their training does not need to include crawling under barbed wire (as I have done) or learning how to fight a fire that could have killed a man, as you have done.

What I've read is that Elon Musk needs workers to build starships, and thousands of others to prepare them for service, and to maintain them afterword. Not ONE of those folks is going to travel in space, but a foundation along the lines you've described just might be a good idea, to create a shared experience that could (potentially) bind them together in the kind of can-do spirit that existed at NASA and the supporting industries during the Moon program.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-15 10:35:53

For SpaceNut ... actually, I logged in just now to report that the 2084 candidate usernames is down to 2037, after removal of duplicates.

The next step is to find out how many of the survivors have Zero Posts. I'll launch a run to find ** that ** result shortly.

Once again, the script does NOT perform updates, but it does take a bit longer because it reaches a bit deeper into the database.

The load on FluxBB should still be relatively light, but this run will last for quite a bit longer.

Update at 13:21 local time .... this will be the longest continuous run attempted to date ...

There are 2037 candidates, and each takes (on the order of) 30 seconds ... If that pattern holds, the run will take 20.6 hours.

Start time was 13.6 local time. It's 10.,4 hours to midnight local time, and the run could continue to 10.2 hours local time tomorrow.

My observation has been that the precision required for mouse placement puts the program/system at risk for failure.

I'll be astonished if the run continues all the way to the finish.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-06-15 11:25:48)

kbd512 · 2021-06-15 11:41:55

tahanson43206,

I don't know enough about what these young people are being educated to do, but I take it that they're not being taught what they need to know. If that is the case, then why wouldn't GW work within the existing university system or vocational school system (just curious, not trying to start any argument)?

Are the engineers who are coming out of the universities not able to perform orbital mechanics calculations or compute how many stress cycles a stainless steel can is capable of withstanding or are the welders making significant mistakes when welding Starship hulls?

That book on orbital mechanics that I posted to this forum, I think in response to a topic about altitude compensating engines that GW also responded to, came from ERAU. Since it was written by one of the professors there at Embry-Riddle and is used in the coursework, I presumed that they were being taught these things, but maybe not if there's not enough interest.

Anyway, StarBASE is ultimately being staffed to create StarFLEET, so it's not as if we're getting one without the other.

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-15 12:36:32

For kbd512 re #1272

Thanks for continuing to think through some of the permutations of the basic idea.

For SpaceNut ... a revised ETA for the current candidates run is 10 AM tomorrow local time.

The system is ** really ** sensitive to disturbance .... I unplugged the USB mouse because it picked up a vibration and halted the run.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-06-15 18:35:52

So for the topic pulled from the posts we could come to a full discusion of the how would one go about setting up a tier approach to skill for space.
1 Texas to establish Starbase Academy in McGregor or simular local for education in degree as well as associated trade for mostly civilians wanting to have space related jobs.
2 Starfleet to be established for other locals to have staff and candidates for the next tier of would be astronaut colonist selection.
3 Space Force would hopefully want select from those that can serve the many vehicle of space from the education paths once going Starbase and Starfleet education....

we will need many first second reaction trainings for electrical as well as depressurization plus more

finished moving the banned from 6801 through to 6900 back into the realm of available user list....

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-16 06:29:27

For SpaceNut re #1274

Thanks for this concise summary of what seems (to me at least) possible if we (humans) can catch this (apparent) Kondratieff Wave.

A Kondratieff Wave is a long-term economic cycle believed to be born out of technological innovation, which results in a long period of prosperity. This theory was founded by Nikolai D. ... Kondratieff believed that these cycles involved periods of evolution and self-correction.

I caught the one that came after World War II and rode it successfully, along with millions and millions of others.

Such waves do not happen by themselves ... they are (obviously) social phenomena, which demonstrate positive feedback at work as individuals feel inspired with hope, and contribute to the collective enterprise.

The capitalist system we have, with all its faults, provides the optimum framework for growth of the strength of one of these waves.

This (or around now) may be close to an ideal time to toss the idea of specialized educational institutions into the collective consciousness.

The competition between California and Texas seems (to me at least) to have wind in the sails of Texas. In this case, geography is a factor, in that the Gulf of Mexico provides a launch site towards the East, and such a location is advantageous in the current time, just as having a coast facing West was a great advantage to California during earlier decades when exchange with the Pacific region was growing.

Unlike Florida, which also has an East facing coast, Texas has a remaining (though dwindling) natural reservoir of hydrocarbon fuel stocks.

However, I think it is the psychological makeup of a significant part of the Texas population that might enable it to take the global lead in the Age of Space.

Recently I pointed out that the US Navy is giving up on using Rail Guns for combat. The results achieved for military purposes to date seem (to me at least) to suggest we may have just started to scratch the surface of what is possible if this technology is brought to Texas and given some running room, as Texans have a way of doing. The possibility exists that this technology can deliver small packets of supplies to LEO.

The cost per kilogram could be quite modest, and if the material is pumped into LEO in volume, it can accumulate at depot locations until it comprises an amount to fill and equip a Starship, or (eventually) even one of RobertDyck's Large Ships.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-06-16 06:30:57)

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