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#1 2020-10-05 09:04:20

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,137

Teleoperation

Teleoperation is highly likely to become a major industry/activity on Mars, as it will on Earth.

There is some teleoperation going on in 2020, as this topic is  created.

Both the military and private industry have activities under way showing effective deployment of systems.

This topic is offered as a place for updates that may catch the eye of forum members.

Today, I sent an inquiry to the president of a US corporation, inviting his consideration of a market on Earth that might allow the field to grow more rapidly than it might otherwise, because the need is so great ...

To:
President & CEO,
(Company) Inc.

Dear Mr. President:

Some time ago I wrote to (company), asking for news of development of teleoperation equipment.  So far, I have seen no signs of development of such equipment by (company), but I recognize that any such development would be kept from the public until it is ready to be announced as available.

Today I'd like to offer a market for your consideration, in addition to the many that (I'm sure) have already occurred to you. A friend recently had to return a puppy to the breeder because she found herself no longer able to keep up with the needs of a young and active pet.

This particular person is notable for her empathy for others.  Among her many activities over the years has been looking in on dogs when the owners are travelling.   It occurred to me that there are many people like her in the population of the United States (and around the world), and there are many people who are lonely and who would like a pet but who (like her) are no longer able to care for one.

A teleoperation system embodied in the form of a puppy or a cat could provide a source of income for empathetic people and a source of companionship for many who are living alone or away from loved ones.

Please consider tasking someone in your organization with investigation of this (potential) market opportunity.

(th)

Update 2023/01/13 Alibaba provided this link to explain RFQ procedure ...
https://service.alibaba.com/page/knowle … anguage=en

(th)

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#2 2020-10-23 06:40:11

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,137

Re: Teleoperation

This post is to report on enhancements to "Spot" whose development has been noted here by Louis and others.

The price of the current version is reported as $75,000, and 250 are reported to have been delivered to date.

The new enhancement is addition of a manipulator arm, which will elevate the system from a mobile reporting telepresence device to full teleoperation.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/bost … 43407.html

“The next thing on the future Spot is that we’re going to make it available with a robot arm in a few months,” Boston Dynamics founder Marc Raibert told the virtual crowd at the Collision from Home conference in June. “We have prototypes working, but we don’t have them available as a product yet. Once you have an arm on a robot, it becomes a mobile manipulation system. It really opens up just vast horizons on things robots can do. I believe that the mobility of the robot will contribute to the dexterity of the robot in ways that we just don’t get with current fixed factory automation.”

The arm will offer six degrees of freedom and will be able to both open doors and pick up items as part of its standard programming. BD’s new CEO Rob Playter told TechCrunch that “like the base robot, there’s much more to the arm than just hardware. It will ship with an intuitive UI, and be equipped to operate through both telemanipulation and supervised autonomous behaviors via the tablet.”

(th)

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#3 2020-10-23 06:41:50

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,137

Re: Teleoperation

This post is reserved for follow up regarding the "Collision from Home" conference that (apparently) took place in June of 2020.

SearchTerm:Collision from Home conference

Edit#1: Snippets from Google:

COLLISION | "North America's fastest growing tech conference"collisionconf.com
"North America's fastest-growing tech conference”, Collision brings Fortune 500 companies, ... 32,000 people connected online in June at Collision from Home.
Schedule · Speakers · Pre-register for 2021 · Our event apps

Schedule | Collision | June 23-25, 2020 - Collision Conferencecollisionconf.com › schedule
Over 32000 people joined us in June for our first online event, Collision from Home. You can browse the schedule.

COLLISION | Collision from Home - Collision Conferencecollisionconf.com › home-live
Collision from Home brings together the people and companies redefining the global tech industry. Think of it like working from home: participants will join the ...

Collision From Home: The Stunning Future of Tech Conferenceswww.digitaltrends.com › news › collision-from-home-v...
Jun 24, 2020 — Into the conference void created by the coronavirus stepped web summit event Collision From Home, which kicked off not with a whimper but ...

(th)

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#4 2020-12-08 10:17:12

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,137

Re: Teleoperation

The article at the link below reports on observation that some computer gamers "invert" their controls.

The observation led to a preliminary study to find out what might be going on.

The research may be useful for those planning teleoperation on a large scale.


https://www.theguardian.com/games/2020/ … ket-newtab

So, what started as an existential argument between Guardian-reading game players may well end up informing a new understanding of visual perception and sensory input. In a world where an increasing number of our interactions are happening in digital and virtual spaces, understanding why some people push down to look up has never been more vital or less nerdy.

• Update: the research team now has enough volunteers for the study. In a single day, the team received more than 500 applications from around the world.

(th)

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#5 2020-12-16 11:01:16

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,309

Re: Teleoperation

bump
This is an extension of mans presence to reduce risk on Mars surface and by staying inside we reduce radiation, mars element of surface conditions to them long term which makes for a longer life of those that choose to stay on mars.

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#6 2021-03-22 17:13:50

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,137

Re: Teleoperation

For SpaceNut re topic

Recently I gave you a "Head's Up" about this topic, as it related to the (possible) increase of Broadband access in Rural America, and around the world.

I followed through today, by offering a suggestion along these lines to a person who is campaigning for elected office.  One of the planks in this person's platform is working to increase broadband access.  Meanwhile, I found a speculative article in one of today's news feeds that an "infrastructure" initiative that might occur in the United States ** might ** include a broadband access component.

Without input from those who can see teleoperation as a viable activity for future workers, those who write the specifications for such an initiative would naturally be limited to what they have experienced, so the access would be limited to serving laptops and cell phones.

This topic is about the entire range of possibilities for workers at home in rural settings, who could be employed supervising high tech equipment anywhere on Earth, or even (eventually) helping to build RobertDyck's Large Ships in LEO.

Edit#1: A complete teleoperation system for Earth would include:

1) Advances in robotics to support remote operation of equipment ... able to do any activity human workers can do
2) Mass production of electronics vans for workers to be deployed where the potential workers are ... solar powered with battery backup
3) Development of sufficient Internet infrastructure to support the global network to be deployed
4) Conversion of factories and other work places (such as fields and orchards) to permit remote work
5) Training / education of employers
6) Training / education of employees
7) Coordination services provided by companies who provide temporary workers today
8) Coordination services provided by companies who assist with Human Resources activities today

Note that human resources activities would move from manufacturers to companies who specialize in providing human workers as needed

(th)

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#7 2021-04-07 17:52:07

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,137

Re: Teleoperation

This update is offered for kbd512, as a follow up to discussion of the pros and cons of employing humans to do the work of robots on Mars.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/robo … 11417.html

Brian Heater
Tue, April 6, 2021, 10:53 AM
While it’s true the VC world has gone SPAC-happy, the reverse merger method hasn’t been a huge driver in robotics thus far, with some notable exceptions like Berkshire-Grey. This morning, however, Utah-based Sarcos Robotics announced plans to board the SPAC train, courtesy of Rotor Acquisition Corp.

The deal could potentially value the robotic exoskeleton maker and blank check co. at a combined $1.3 billion, along with a potential $281 million earn-out. Sarcos is, of course, one of a number of companies currently exploring the robotic exoskeleton category. So, what sets the company apart, beyond some heavy-duty James Cameron-style design language?

Partnership are always a big motivator. Sarcos lined up a pretty big one way back at CES 2020. It was positioned at the center of Delta’s big tech push at the trade show.

<snip>

At the time, the airline announced that it would be partnering with the company to pilot these exoskeletons among its staff. The robotics-maker noted then that the tech can be used to lift 200-pound payloads for up to eight hours, without tiring the wearer. It’s in line with Sarcos’ more industrial-minded approach to wearable robotics.

Delta Air Lines’ startup partnerships are fueling innovation

Later that same year, the company announced a $40 million raise aimed at commercializing its Guardian XO unit. In today’s release, it adds that it expects to deliver the system at some point in the middle of next year, with the teleoperated Guardian XT arriving the following.

In October of last year, the Sarcos was awarded a grant from the U.S. Navy to produce remote-operated versions of its XO system, as military funding continues to be a big driver of the robotics industry.

Sarcos raises $40 million to bring its Guardian XO exoskeleton to market

The line I'd like to point out is the U.S. Navy interest in a remote-operated version.  That is the direction I'm looking for Mars construction.

(th)

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#8 2021-05-06 12:09:27

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,137

Re: Teleoperation

The teleoperation topic has been quiet for a while ... here is an example of innovative thinking that leads to job opportunities for teleoperators who could be anywhere on Earth to perform their duty:\\

https://www.asme.org/topics-resources/c … ing-around

The application is close inspection of wind turbine blades, but it could be close inspection of any part of the infrastructure needed to support an advanced civilization.

Here's the web site for the manufacturer: https://bladebug.co.uk/

(th)

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#9 2021-05-06 17:07:10

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,572

Re: Teleoperation

Already, here on Earth, we use teleoperation for control of drones in military operations.  The technology is already reliable enough to allow grade separated public transport to be piloted remotely and quite safely.  But public acceptance of remote control is an impediment.  On Mars, there will be stronger economic drivers favouring remote operations.  EVA time is expensive, it eats into individual dose budgets and there are risks of suffocation in the Martian environment.  Providing a habitable volume in a vehicle also imposes substantial costs and increases the total size and cost of the vehicle.  So I think remote operation will be the norm on Mars, because it is cheaper and safer.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#10 2021-05-06 17:14:06

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,137

Re: Teleoperation

For Calliban re #9 .... this is a relatively new topic, and having your endorsement so early is most welcome and much appreciated!

(th)

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#11 2021-05-06 18:54:58

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,309

Re: Teleoperation

All brought to you by GPS, Radar, global communications and near real time to communicate to make it react to what you are visually seeing on the monitor from all of the above data streams.

Mars is a much slower time delayed method of which the thoughts to do advance programming for AI are coming but its a ways off.
So to get the same ability we need to move to mars high orbital plain and to the surface with simular to earth capabilities of gear to get it done.

The current methods for job creation and for corporate building comes from contracts for services and a means as provide by that business that gets the bid.
You got to have deep pockets to get a business started to be a provider of a service that is not yet contracted for.

In this case tele robotics comes with a need for satellites and lots of them to handle the communications that the robo units require, they need a platform for man to work from that does not suffer from the time delay and then lots of those services provided from the units that are sent to the surface plus the many types of payloads that we will require to go with all of the above. Not to mention all the pay and food required by those that do the operating of the robo units....

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#12 2021-05-06 19:05:32

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Teleoperation

I am struggling to think of many applications for teleoperations on Mars. Maybe exploratory rovers. But once we have people on the surface of Mars we might as well have them out and about in pressurised rovers or in rocket hoppers to explore the planet.

Last edited by louis (2021-05-06 19:06:18)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#13 2021-12-09 11:33:03

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,137

Re: Teleoperation

Here is a copy of a comment/reply I sent to the manufacturer of snow blowers ...

The company had sent a request for feedback on the performance of their online help worker, so I added a suggestion to extend the product line:

Thanks again for a link to the self-propelled battery version of the <product>. I'd like to take this opportunity to give your design team a challenge. I'd like to see a remote controlled version with VR capability.  The scope of operation would be a city block. I live on one of thousands of identical US standard city blocks.  It would be fun (and rewarding) to be able to drive a remote controlled snow blower around the block without leaving the house.  The military has been operating drones via satellite for many years now.  This device could be operated through the wireless phone network.  I'd like the control interface to work through a VR headset for optimum visibility. (th)

Edit later: The intelligence for the on-machine interface could be a current model low end smartphone. The interface to the machine could be via Bluetooth, and the video for transmission to the operator could come from cameras on front and back of the phone.

(th)

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#14 2021-12-09 16:55:13

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,572

Re: Teleoperation

From the discussions that have taken place elsewhere on this board, it will be challenging to even land a Starship on Mars without a preconstructed landing pad.  We simply don't know enough about the load bearing capabilities of the regolith to be able to commit to a manned landing.

Maybe the first task will be to land a robot that can construct such a landing pad?  Could it be controlled by a crew in orbit?  Louis' idea of a stone stacking robot may turn out to be a good idea.  Maybe even a number of robots - some to gather the rocks, some to transport them to the site, others to stack them and perhaps apply compacted soil between layers.

Teleoperation of these machines would be far more rapid and practicable, if they were controlled by a crew in Mars orbit, effectively in real time.  It isn't an ideal situation having to wait in Mars orbit whilst we use machines to build a landing pad.  But it appears to be the only solution to this problem.  Could we build such a pad in 30 days?  Is that possible?

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-09 16:58:11)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#15 2021-12-09 18:46:47

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,309

Re: Teleoperation

It is a tool for man to use if we can not be there for sure but who wants to man a telerobotic machines when all you are doing is planning the sequence of moves and timing to place into command control with no other means to ensure success for what it was told to do.

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#16 2021-12-09 20:03:11

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,137

Re: Teleoperation

For SpaceNut re #15

It is entirely possible our generation (and possibly yours as well?) missed the entire gaming industry.

A video game does NOT involve the kind of planning you might be thinking of for Mars rovers.

True teleoperation takes place in real time, with delay of milliseconds at most.

A crew in orbit around Mars would be in near-real-time communication with machinery on the ground.

That is what I asked the snow blower manufacturer to provide.

I want to be able to "drive" that plow from my work room, using local 5G communications, and I expect the feedback of video and sound to be near instantaneous.

The same would be true for operators of site building equipment on Mars.

Calliban's vision of setting stones is an interesting departure from the standard scenario of making a concrete pad with rebar.

(th)

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#17 2021-12-09 20:51:56

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,309

Re: Teleoperation

Flag stone walkways come to mind as we require a flat surface that is larger than a leg pad for it to work.

typical flat stone of irregular shapes
71uQbAhWduL.__AC_SX300_SY300_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg

Of course this is where the rock type determines the thickness of the paving of a rock landing pad would need to be made with.
Some leveling of the ground surface will be required along with the selections being place precisely. GW has determined best guess on the weight baring numbers but how would that translate to this type of surface.

what a surface might look like
flagstone-walkway-house-entrance-840x560-75.jpg

Yes close proximity will appear near real time and mars orbit means radiation exposure if unplanned for.

The real problem is mars looks not to have many rocks to select from

Screen_Shot_2014-09-13_at_12.41.05_PM.0.0.png

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#18 2022-05-04 10:01:48

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,137

Re: Teleoperation

For SpaceNut re #17

Suggestion: Think slate ... humans have been making slate from naturally occurring deposits for many years

The pictures you showed us in #17 remind me of that as a possible scenario to make flat surfaced components for a "manufactured" landing surface.

To make a stone in suitable material, a chisel is inserted at a fracture line, force is applied, and a chunk of material breaks free.  That chunk can then be machined into squares or triangles or hexagons, as needed for the project.

***
For Calliban re self connecting hose for mining equipment for Mars ...

A hose need not be automated if you (project manager) have a teleoperation device on site, and an operator in the nearest habitat to supervise the connection.

***
for all ... I am ** very ** interested in a GoCart system that operates via VR (Virtual Reality)

We already have live equipment for flight operations in the military.

We have teleoperation of vehicles of a variety of kinds on Earth.

What I'm interested in seeing is sturdy civilian equipment capable of performing useful tasks (like shoveling snow) while the operator enjoys the comfort of an air conditioned work space well away from the action.

There are probably already trademarks for this, but I'll toss it out for review: VRGoCart.

That would (of course) have a web site: vrgocart.com

If that web site exists already I'd not be surprised.

(th)

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#19 2022-05-04 10:52:07

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,572

Re: Teleoperation

Perhaps the easiest arrangement would be a flooding bonnet with a rubber seal around the edges.  The vehicle would be driven into a slot.  A camera would reveal when the flooding bonnet was sufficiently aligned to the refilling port on the vehicle roof.  When the two are aligned, an electromagnet would be activated on the flooding bonnet, pulling it onto the steel on the vehicle roof around the refilling port and compressing the rubber seal.  At this point, valves would be opened, one at the tank outlet allowing liquid CO2 to drain into line and another on the refilling port.  The tank would contain a level sensor that would close the valve on the static tank when the tank volume plus the remaining LCO2 inmthe line was equal to the tank capacity.  After a calculated drainage time, the valve onnthe refilling port wouod be closed.  A pressure relief valve would be opened on the flooding bonnet and the electromagnet would disengage when pressure drops to zero.

Only one degree of freedom is required for the flooding bonnet: it goes up and down.  The electromagnet pulls it down and a spring pulls it back up when the coil is deenergised.  The slot restricts lateral position of the vehicle.  Alignment of the vehicle is otherwise achieved by operator.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#20 2022-05-04 11:06:20

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,137

Re: Teleoperation

For Calliban re #19

Nice details for refueling the mobile units ... I was reminded (by your description) of in-flight refueling booms used by various air forces.  Those do have multiple degrees of freedom to contend with. You design reduces uncertainty greatly. I hope you'll consider posting this helpful idea back in the Internal Combustion engine topic while it remains the main thought flow line.

Hopefully SpaceNut will add topics to allow for separation of the design flows.

(th)

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#21 2022-08-24 09:00:47

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,137

Re: Teleoperation

Here is a report that appears to support the theme of this topic...

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/uk … 17368.html

Reuters Videos
UK-controlled robot ship surveys Pacific Ocean volcano
Tue, August 23, 2022 at 6:39 PM
STORY: This robotic boat is gathering data on an underwater volcano in Tonga…

while operators sit almost 10,000 miles away in southeast England.

Sea-Kit International CEO Ben Simpson:

“We've collected a huge amount of data to help the scientists understand more about it. Our third mission, which we're going out now is to understand a little bit more about outside the volcano.”

The underwater Hunga Tonga–Hunga Ha'apai volcano erupted in January, sending tsunami waves across the Pacific Ocean.

Data collected here will help scientists understand why the eruption had such a huge and violent impact, as well as help predict the nature of future eruptions.

With no crew, the USV Maxlimer is a fraction of the size of a normal survey ship that would carry 50 people and uses a tiny fraction of the fuel.

“The beauty of unmanned surface vessels though is that this bridge that I'm sitting in in Essex can be anywhere. So we can actually hand over the control the vessel from this office to anywhere else in the world to control that vessel, which also can be anywhere in the world.”

The nearly 40-foot ship has completed two survey missions and will soon start a third off Tonga.

(th)

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#22 2022-08-24 09:04:21

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,137

Re: Teleoperation

Follow up to post reporting on UK remote survey ship ...

It seems to me that vast numbers of new jobs are available, if teleoperation is adopted widely ...

Personal services are in demand, or are needed.

Industrial activities can be performed remotely, so the operator is protected from danger, and the costs of maintaining an operator at the job site are eliminated.

(th)

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#23 2022-08-24 11:02:33

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,572

Re: Teleoperation

On the moon, robotic units can be teleoperated from Earth surface.  A minimal crew would be needed to deal with malfunctioning machines.  Otherwise, all units can be robotic.  On Mars, it is more difficult.  Teleoperators must be in orbit or on the surface.  But we could ship people from LEO to a Phobos base using low thrust propulsion and wouldn't need to go through the more expensive step of landing them.  In this way, for every human being that lands on the surface of Mars, another 10 could be teleoperating machinery from Phobos.  That would make building a base on Mars a lot easier.  We aren't talking about building intelligent machines that have to think for themselves.  This is remote control, the same tech that is used to control drones.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-08-24 11:05:48)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#24 2022-08-24 12:56:28

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,137

Re: Teleoperation

For Calliban re #23

Thank you for your generous support of the topic!

I'd like to see the following VR Remote Operation equipment:

1) Lawnmower
2) Snow blower
3) Tree pruner
4) Roof inspector and maintainer
***
Further afield .... Street cleaning machine to collect leaves and other debris

This topic is available for anyone to add suggestions for vendors to develop products.

I'd like to see John Deere take the lead in the field. They are already (apparently) working on or perhaps even testing remote controlled tractors.

The electronics to control a tractor should be similar to if not identical to the equipment needed to control a lawn mower.

(th)

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#25 2022-08-24 18:20:43

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,309

Re: Teleoperation

There are a couple of methods for control of a device that is setup to operate within a given area automatically as similar to the house sweeping units and other fence sensing devices but nothing that small as it would require a much higher level of power to add this stuff to it as the lower tier of these are gasoline pull start.
First system is communication which draws power even in a sleep mode of operation just waiting for start commands. Even a modified version of a cellphone will go dead after a day typically if not getting some charging.
Next would be that docking area where it could be charged often to keep it function with the auto sense to de-park from it once full to keep battery in a good condition.

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