2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

kbd512 · 2021-03-21 16:12:53

Louis,

Since SpaceNut didn't die, or even come close to dying, I don't think there's any constitutional issue at play here. People get sore muscles and headaches without vaccines all the time. Most of them seem to appreciate being vaccinated against lethal pathogens that have already killed more than half a million people.

GW Johnson · 2021-03-21 17:06:37

My wife and I have had the two Moderna shots now. I am 70, she is 65. First one: sore spot at the site for a day or two. Second one (like many but by no means all): felt poor for about 36 hours, as if we had mild flu.

Side effects (not shared by everyone) seem mild compared to death on a ventilator in a hospital typical of old or sick people. Period. End of issue. As we hear it, each different vaccine has different most-common side effects. Big f***ing deal.

Doesn't matter, these side effects seem quite mild compared to the alternative. So, when it comes to public health, I think those measures, including vaccinations (pretty much in general, not just for SARS-CoV-2), should absolutely be legally mandatory. Period. End of issue. Worked for smallpox. Worked for polio. The history is quite telling.

We went through this same denial b***s*** during the 1918-1919 pandemic (a matter of history, go look it up for yourself), and it cost 675,000 lives in the US during that 2-year interval. This one is just about as bad, if not worse. It's only been 1 year, and we in the US already have over 500,000 casualties.

And since when does a Brit understand what is "constitutional" or not in the US? We fought (and won) a revolution over that bit of intellectual arrogance, a bit over 2 centuries ago. I thought (and hoped) we were long past that, but I keep seeing evidence we are not.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2021-03-21 17:09:05)

SpaceNut · 2021-03-21 17:19:36

louis wrote:

Totally unconstitutional and unethical that your employer should be able to force you to take a medicine which could kill you.

SpaceNut wrote:
Got moderna shot today at work as required and aside from sore arm at shot site the only other thing is a headache which is a side effect for some.

Employers can and do make many rules to stay employed and this is just another of them which include mask mandates.
Plus if I were to die they pay forever in one way or another in insurance payouts to family.

louis · 2021-03-21 17:22:59

It's a question of compulsory ingestion of a drug that might kill you. Normally that would be prevented by health and safety legislation.

SpaceNut wrote:

louis wrote:
Totally unconstitutional and unethical that your employer should be able to force you to take a medicine which could kill you.

SpaceNut wrote:
Got moderna shot today at work as required and aside from sore arm at shot site the only other thing is a headache which is a side effect for some.
Employers can and do make many rules to stay employed and this is just another of them which include mask mandates.
Plus if I were to die they pay forever in one way or another in insurance payouts to family.

GW Johnson · 2021-03-21 17:29:55

It WON'T kill you, Louis!

That's the point!

GW

SpaceNut · 2021-03-21 17:31:48

It's also why trial gynie pigs are used in testing out safety and effectiveness.

kbd512 · 2021-03-21 17:37:51

GW Johnson wrote:

It WON'T kill you, Louis!
That's the point!
GW

Hence the reason why SpaceNut is still here to complain that his arm hurts.

My wife is about to receive her second shot. Her arm hurt, too. Go figure. Shots hurt. Sure beats dying, though.

I'm on the list, as are my children, but we're not a priority yet.

If anyone doesn't want their shot, then they can donate it to my family. We'll just say "thank you" and that's all.

I'm a simple man. I want my children to live. If I can live long enough to watch them grow up, that's a bonus.

louis · 2021-03-21 17:47:04

I probably know a lot more about American history and the US constitution than the average American, particularly the average American on a fast track to naturalisation under Biden.

A respiratory virus is a totally different proposition from systemic viruses like polio and smallpox. Respiratory viruses cannot be corralled. We've managed to eliminate just one virus - smallpox. In fact the latest polio outbreak was caused by the vaccine!!:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6916a1.htm

The alternative to having the vaccine is not being put on a ventilator, it's: relying on your natural immunity because you've already been exposed to Covid or have cross immunity from other coronaviruses (probably already between 30-60% of people in Western countries, and probably far higher in the Far East), or catching Covid and not dying, or catching Covid and dying. 99.8% of the population haven't died from the virus. And probably 99.999% of people without comorbidities like obesity. diabetes, high blood pressure and so on haven't died from the virus. For a young healthy person the likelihood of death must be tiny and, I would suggest, comparative to the chance of death from the vaccine.

The vaccines remain in the experimental phase. They haven't been properly licensed. How serious the side effects are, remains to be seen but the Norwegian authorities confirm that healthy women under 50, someone's mother or daughter, have been killed by the vaccine. Maybe you think that's a price worth paying to protect older people but I don't.

GW Johnson wrote:

My wife and I have had the two Moderna shots now. I am 70, she is 65. First one: sore spot at the site for a day or two. Second one (like many but by no means all): felt poor for about 36 hours, as if we had mild flu.
Side effects (not shared by everyone) seem mild compared to death on a ventilator in a hospital typical of old or sick people. Period. End of issue. As we hear it, each different vaccine has different most-common side effects. Big f***ing deal.
Doesn't matter, these side effects seem quite mild compared to the alternative. So, when it comes to public health, I think those measures, including vaccinations (pretty much in general, not just for SARS-CoV-2), should absolutely be legally mandatory. Period. End of issue. Worked for smallpox. Worked for polio. The history is quite telling.
We went through this same denial b***s*** during the 1918-1919 pandemic (a matter of history, go look it up for yourself), and it cost 675,000 lives in the US during that 2-year interval. This one is just about as bad, if not worse. It's only been 1 year, and we in the US already have over 500,000 casualties.
And since when does a Brit understand what is "constitutional" or not in the US? We fought (and won) a revolution over that bit of intellectual arrogance, a bit over 2 centuries ago. I thought (and hoped) we were long past that, but I keep seeing evidence we are not.
GW

SpaceNut · 2021-03-21 18:13:13

Reading the link showed we do not have a natural immunity to the polio but require the vaccine to help the body against it as it did not give it to them.

Current US variants not including the first two are now 3 more from the UK, Brazil and Africa. These are being tested in labs to see if the vaccines work on them as well.

louis · 2021-03-21 19:21:52

What are you on about? The vaccine caused the polio outbreak - involving paralysis of children. Had there not been the vaccine those particular people would not have ended up paralysed at that time. Couldn't be clearer. You obviously didn't understand the article.

SpaceNut wrote:

Reading the link showed we do not have a natural immunity to the polio but require the vaccine to help the body against it as it did not give it to them.
Current US variants not including the first two are now 3 more from the UK, Brazil and Africa. These are being tested in labs to see if the vaccines work on them as well.

GW Johnson · 2021-03-22 08:37:35

Louis:

I looked at the article whose link you provided. What it says and what you claimed it says are the exact opposite. It says polio outbreaks happen where vaccination rates are low. And did you notice that the US is NOT on the list where outbreaks happen? There is a reason for that: vaccinations.

I was born during the last polio epidemic in the US. The vaccine was not available until I was in the second grade, and it was the Salk injection, not the Sabin sugar cube (that came 3 years later). I was lucky, but my cousin and some friends were not. They got infected before the vaccine became available.

You often make good sense and say good things, but your anti-vaccine denial BS is NOT part of that.

GW

louis · 2021-03-22 20:04:34

I'd say look at the article again. It says polio outbreaks caused by vaccination can happen where vaccination rates are low.

Just for clarification, I'm not opposed to polio vaccination. Polio can affect young and healthy people in devastating ways. So if the vaccine can offer protection, despite there being some risks, this makes sense.

I was pointing out that the simplistic view of vaccination as an unalloyed blessing is unscientific and leads to bad choices.

For the Covid vaccine there is no benefit for young and healthy people. It would be much better to let healthy people mix, so we get to herd immunity as quickly as possible, while vulnerable people shield themselves (which they're having to do in any case).

GW Johnson wrote:

Louis:
I looked at the article whose link you provided. What it says and what you claimed it says are the exact opposite. It says polio outbreaks happen where vaccination rates are low. And did you notice that the US is NOT on the list where outbreaks happen? There is a reason for that: vaccinations.
I was born during the last polio epidemic in the US. The vaccine was not available until I was in the second grade, and it was the Salk injection, not the Sabin sugar cube (that came 3 years later). I was lucky, but my cousin and some friends were not. They got infected before the vaccine became available.
You often make good sense and say good things, but your anti-vaccine denial BS is NOT part of that.
GW

GW Johnson · 2021-03-23 08:25:50

Louis:

Whether the polio virus is vaccine-derived or not, is not the real lesson. The lesson is that when vaccination rates are low, herd immunity is nonexistent, and outbreaks occur, however derived.

You get around the hesitancy issue by making the vaccination mandatory. There will always be idiots who don't want it, so you make them pay a price for that stupidity (out in the wild, stupidity is pretty much a "capital crime", by the way). It's a matter of public health, that's what justifies the mandate.

That's why and how we eradicated the polio epidemic in the US. You got the shot or you didn't go to school. Going to school was a legal mandate, so if you failed to send your kid to school for any reason, you went to jail. That's exactly how we did it. It worked, too.

We in the US treated polio, smallpox, TB, diptheria, and whooping cough that way. We got pretty much rid of those threats. Later on, mumps and measles got added to the mix.

The only problems we have had with outbreaks derive from allowing too many excuses for the vaccine-hesitant.

GW

tahanson43206 · 2021-03-24 18:03:00

For SpaceNut ... this report could go in several topics, but this one seems a good place to start ...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/next-trick-p … 34653.html

A series of studies — performed in an enclosed box, a 9-by-14-foot room and the hospital rooms of COVID-19 patients — suggested that the AerosolSense sampler could capture the coronavirus even when present at low levels, said Kevin Van Den Wymelenberg, who conducted the research and directs the Biology and the Built Environment Center at the University of Oregon.

I see this as definitely encouraging, not only for the present threat, but for future biological threats, and not just for Earth!

(th)

louis · 2021-03-24 19:01:20

Letter in the British Medical Journal - a respected UK medical publication - explaining how, wherever mass vaccination programmes start there is huge peak or wave of Covid cases/deaths that follows (emphasis on follows).

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4037/rr-20

I'd spotted this before in the UK and Israel, both at the forefront of vaccination. Part of the explanation is that vaccination doesn't grant immediate protection and actually makes you MORE vulnerable to infection. For a 25 year old, that's neither here nor there but for the very elderly, the very frail and the very sick - the people who tend to get the vaccine first - it can prove fatal.

Of course this won't stop the irrational enthusiasm of the followers of the vax-religion. They are beyond logic.

SpaceNut · 2021-03-24 19:46:09

More troubling should be the one's that get the virus after having the 2 shots of vaccine.

louis · 2021-03-24 20:32:18

Getting Covid or another major infection after the vaccine whether first shot or second was not "as advertised" in all the initial propaganda. It was supposed to save the vulnerable, not make them more vulnerable.

A close friend of mine had the vaccine and was diagnosed with Covid within two weeks. He wasn't hospitalised but he was very ill with it.
He's generally in robust good health. I think he's an example of the vaccine making you ill, not healthier.

SpaceNut wrote:

More troubling should be the one's that get the virus after having the 2 shots of vaccine.

Calliban · 2021-03-25 05:44:05

Agreed. This virus is being used to justify all manner of authoritarian intrusions into people's freedom. Whilst the risk from the virus is not zero, the various government mandates of masks, social distancing, restrictions on meetings, etc, do not appear to be justified by the relatively small reduction in risk that they might achieve. No government appears to have attempted to carry out a cost-benefit analysis in order to demonstrate that what has been imposed is an appropriate response to risk, even though there is ample data available now to support one. Perhaps they know that an honest CBA would not back up what have become useful measures for micromanaging the population. We can expect lockouts to be rolled out for all sorts of other reasons now, as apparently the public have gotten used to it. In the absence of a CBA, all sorts of police state initiatives have been hoisted on people as, I suspect, a convenient way of controlling them. The media have done a good job of whipping up the fear needed to allow anything to be sold to them as a means of combating this scary virus. Pharmaceutical companies now stand to make billions for a vaccine for a virus that does not pose a particularly big risk to most people. I suspect there are backhanded deals going on.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-03-25 05:48:25)

SpaceNut · 2021-03-25 17:48:18

louis wrote:

Getting Covid or another major infection after the vaccine whether first shot or second was not "as advertised" in all the initial propaganda. It was supposed to save the vulnerable, not make them more vulnerable.
A close friend of mine had the vaccine and was diagnosed with Covid within two weeks. He wasn't hospitalised but he was very ill with it.
He's generally in robust good health. I think he's an example of the vaccine making you ill, not healthier.
SpaceNut wrote:
More troubling should be the one's that get the virus after having the 2 shots of vaccine.

There was no test before the vaccines first shot was given. Then prior to the second shot by a couple days another test would be required to know if you are sick from the series of them or a false indicator.

SpaceNut · 2021-03-25 17:50:25

Dead people and those which get hospitalized as well as long haulers are all negatives greater that the cost to get a shot.

tahanson43206 · 2021-03-25 18:05:17

Recent comments in posts to this topic seem (as I read them) to miss an important fact about the vaccines ...

** All ** of the vaccines have measured performance less than 95%

That means 95 people are protected, and 5 are not, in a random set of 100 who receive the vaccine.

There is absolutely NO reason for surprise that there are some (unlucky) individuals who fall ill after the shot was given.

That is exactly what I would expect. That means (to me) that wearing masks and social distancing is a VERY GOOD idea for anyone who receives the shots.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-03-25 18:07:48

Some are even less and nearer to 70...

Void · 2021-03-27 11:05:35

------
Gratitude:
Had my first vac shot today, I am a lager in this country. Very well organized, I feel. Will have the second in a Month if all goes well. Since I already had covid-19 in late November, I feel like I may be sliver in a few days and sort of golden in a Month or so. So, I have to be thankful, that there are so many good people who would make this possible for me.
Thank You!

In truth, you never know when your number will be up, at least unless you get a serious illness.

95% or less, I believe actually can indicate that if you get sick, you still may not get as seriously ill.

We have a pretty good deal. When herd immunity shows up, we will be somewhat protected, even if our immunity is not fully stimulated.

Some reading I have done indicates that if I have continuing minor symptoms from being sick last November, this first shot may get rid of them. That is a good hope.

Done.

But now I am a microchipped Ro---Bot Louis!

Last edited by Void (2021-03-27 11:08:07)

SpaceNut · 2021-03-27 18:36:59

Good to hear Void.

Had found out second Friday back that brother was sick with covid and that by Wednesday he was admitted to the ICU for continued worsening symptom. They have thrown the kitchen sink at it and it would seem that he has lessening symptoms and was feeling a bit better.

tahanson43206 · 2021-03-27 18:42:12

For SpaceNut ... best wishes for a full recovery for your brother!

For Void ... glad to know you've landed the shots!

(th)

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#751 2021-03-21 16:12:53

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

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Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

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