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#1 2001-10-03 15:25:11

GOM
Member
Registered: 2001-09-08
Posts: 127

Re: The time has come to drop The Mars Petition.... - Drop the Mars Petition

Quote:

"The Mars Petition

The time has come for humanity to journey to Mars.

Humanity yearns for a challenge, one that will let us exercise the limitless potential, now dormant, that lies waiting within ourselves. The prospects facing our generation have never been greater; with world peace, unprecedented economic growth, and extraordinary technological innovation, we find ourselves at the threshold of a new millennium of opportunity. The human exploration of Mars will be our generation's crowning achievement."


hmmmm

This post possibly could get me banned from here, but it's time to face reality:

1.  "World peace" has recently proven itself to be merely an illusion.

2.  The "prospects facing our generation" include the possibility of terrorism on a global scale.  Even NASA may be drawn into the War On Terrorism.

http://space.com/news/iss_military_010924-1.html

3.  The vaunted "unprecedented economic growth" has taken a severe hit.  We'll have to wait and see how long it takes to recover.

4.  If our "extraordinary technological innovation" can come up with a faster, better, cheaper means of space travel, then we might have a chance of human exploration of Mars.  Without that, I do not expect a single human being to step foot on Mars within the next 20 years.  Unfortunately.

sad

If the Mars Society does not want to withdraw the Mars Petition, at least you should modify it to reflect the current world situation.  Otherwise you lose credibility.

Sorry.  Someone had to say it.


P.S.  In case some might think I am being too harsh, I am personally in favor of the human exploration of Mars.  I'm just trying to be realistic about the odds.  All of the above is in my opinion, of course.

The allegedly Grumpy Old Man

smile

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#2 2001-10-06 08:04:42

John Creighton
Member
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 2,401
Website

Re: The time has come to drop The Mars Petition.... - Drop the Mars Petition

Hmmmm, perhaps I should of read it more closely before I signed it. Oh well, it was quite a while ago.

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#3 2001-10-06 12:28:06

Adrian
Moderator
From: London, United Kingdom
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 642
Website

Re: The time has come to drop The Mars Petition.... - Drop the Mars Petition

I have to agree that the Mars Petition wording is a tad optimistic to say the least. Does it have to be quite like that? What does it matter if we have world peace, etc etc? Is that supposed to assuage those who always ask why we should go to Mars instead of curing all the evils of the world, eliminating injustice and making sure everyone is smiling and happy?

In any case, I don't really believe in the effectiveness of online petitions (link to follow soon)...


Editor of New Mars

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#4 2001-10-09 12:07:55

GOM
Member
Registered: 2001-09-08
Posts: 127

Re: The time has come to drop The Mars Petition.... - Drop the Mars Petition

Hello Adrian,

You say:  "I don't really believe in the effectiveness of online petitions (link to follow soon)..."

I would like to see that.  Do you have some personal experience with online petitions?

Thanks.

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#5 2001-10-09 12:52:57

Adrian
Moderator
From: London, United Kingdom
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 642
Website

Re: The time has come to drop The Mars Petition.... - Drop the Mars Petition

Here it is - basically a few thoughts on online petitions, petitions in general and in fact 'the Martian Way'. I set up such a petition as I discussed in the essay, but the GenMars webserver is offline right now, we're moving all the files to a new server.


Editor of New Mars

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#6 2002-01-28 00:51:34

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: The time has come to drop The Mars Petition.... - Drop the Mars Petition

I tend to disagree with GOM on this. Maybe I'm an incurable optimist but I think our present difficulties are probably transient.
   The Mars Petition is a fairly dramatic statement but it's all about a dramatic subject! Becoming a multi-planet species isn't something you do every day of the week ... it's a big step!!
   The terrorist situation, though nobody should attempt to trivialise its importance, is, I believe, containable. In fact, now that governments all over the world are taking the problem more seriously than ever before, I believe the world is probably safer today than it has been for a long time. Terrorism will be brought under control.
   The world financial situation has been pretty precarious for a while, but that won't last. This economic glitch will pass ... they all do ... and the world will continue to grow gradually richer.
   And technology is surging ahead unhindered. The prospects for unprecedented advances have never been better.
   I guess that when GOM made his Post back in October 2001,
the world looked a far gloomier place, so I suppose it's easier for me to be optimistic .... with my retrospective 20/20 vision!
   But anyway, what do YOU think now, GOM? Have I cheered you up, yet?! (I can't believe those rumours about GOM standing for Grumpy Old Man ... just malicious gossip, I'm sure!)                                             big_smile


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

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#7 2002-01-29 18:32:26

Phobos
Member
Registered: 2002-01-02
Posts: 1,103

Re: The time has come to drop The Mars Petition.... - Drop the Mars Petition

I never really agreed with the people who say we must have all of our social problems solved before we can embark on missions to Mars.  A lot of the world's ills can't be solved by just spending money as a lot of them are politically based.


To achieve the impossible you must attempt the absurd

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#8 2002-05-09 12:07:43

GOM
Member
Registered: 2001-09-08
Posts: 127

Re: The time has come to drop The Mars Petition.... - Drop the Mars Petition

Terrorism will be brought under control.
  [/quote:post_uid0]
That's a very optimistic belief you have.  You could be right, but I prefer to stick with a more realistic view.  Of course, you don't indicate the year when your prediction will be fulfilled.

Global terrorism is more likely to increase.  We are only in round 1 or 2 of a potentially very long struggle.  President Bush has told us to expect this will take years.

.02

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#9 2002-05-10 22:18:49

Canth
Member
Registered: 2002-04-21
Posts: 126

Re: The time has come to drop The Mars Petition.... - Drop the Mars Petition

The mars petition isn't doing any harm. I think it should be kept up as a sign of support but also augmented/replaced by stronger activism and possibly a physical petition as well.

We as a species have been using terrorism for a LONG time. I doubt a war on it will actually stop it. The best we can do is try to reduce its use, and we are already progressing toward that goal. There isn't really a complete finish, terrorism will stick around most likely.

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#10 2002-05-11 01:58:45

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: The time has come to drop The Mars Petition.... - Drop the Mars Petition

GOM, I have to admit you're right. That statement of mine about terrorism being brought under control does look like "cloud-cuckoo-land" stuff, doesn't it?! I must have been in a pretty expansive mood that day!
   Even if I try to save the situation by saying "brought under control" doesn't mean eliminated, I then have to define what level of terrorist violence I am prepared to accept qualifies as "under control"!
   Even if only one bomb per year explodes in a shopping mall somewhere in the world, if it's YOUR shopping mall it's out-of-control terrorism from your point of view!! Right?
   No. I have to admit that with human nature being what it is, both you and Canth are correct and "terrorism will stick around most likely". We can only hope to reduce it.
   Then again, maybe in a few centuries ..... Oops! There I go with that uncontrolled optimism again!
                                                           smile


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

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#11 2002-05-15 12:22:10

GOM
Member
Registered: 2001-09-08
Posts: 127

Re: The time has come to drop The Mars Petition.... - Drop the Mars Petition

Terror, Lies And Videotape
WASHINGTON, May 15, 2002

Scene from the video shown on the Internet. (CBS)


AN EDITOR'S NOTE
It was only after great deliberation that CBS News chose to broadcast portions of this video. We believe it is important for Americans to see it and understand the full impact and danger of the propaganda war being waged against the United States and its allies, and also its effect on the young people of the Arab world. We did not show the graphic scenes contained on the videotape, both for reasons of taste and out of respect for Mr. Pearl's family. CBS News brought you this report because, even in highly edited form, the video illustrates how far an enemy will go to spread its message of hate for the United States.
--Dan Rather


(CBS) Enemies of the United States are spreading on the Internet a gruesome piece of propaganda. It is a videotape of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl, who was kidnapped and murdered earlier this year in Pakistan. And it is being used by terrorists to recruit new soldiers for the cause.

The tape is titled "The Slaughter of the Spy-Journalist, the Jew Daniel Pearl," and it as disturbing a piece of propaganda as you will ever see, reports CBS News National Security Correspondent David Martin.

Interspersed with news clips, the video of Pearl's final hours is a cold-blooded recruiting poster for America's enemies, complete with Arabic subtitles.

"The translation is in Arabic because the audience is Arabic," says Ali al-Ahmed, a dissident Saudi Arabian journalist, who found it on the Web a few days ago.

"The audience for this Web site are young Saudis, college students, high school students and unemployed Saudis," he says.

The U.S. government asked the Web site to remove the video, but it has since shown up on at least one other site.

What is perhaps most shocking is that some viewers do not find it repulsive.

"The first place where they had it on most of the people who commented on the tape, they said, 'I wish I was there. I wish I had done it,'" says al-Ahmed.

The U.S. may be winning the war in Afghanistan, but it is losing the propaganda war in parts of the Arab world.

As al-Ahmed sees it, "the United States is out of the game in the PR war in Saudi Arabia. They are disconnected from young Saudis. Young Saudis have nowhere to turn if they want to hear the United States' message."

With the background blacked out to cover up anything that might reveal the location, the tape begins with Pearl giving a brief factually correct description of his roots.

"My father's Jewish. My mother's Jewish. I'm Jewish," says Pearl.

And that seems to be the real reason Pearl was murdered, not because he was a spy but because he was a Jew and an American.

In a production style similar to the most recent video of Osama bin Laden, Pearl's statements are inter-cut with news clips showing scenes of Israel's war against the Palestinians. His jerky movements are a telltale sign some of his statements have been edited for maximum effect. He is under duress and at times appears to be reciting anti-American lines given to him by his captors, no doubt hoping that saying the right thing might save his life.

"We Americans cannot continue to bear the consequences of our government actions such as the unconditional support given to the state of Israel," Pearl says.

The tape ends with Pearl's beheading which no one needs to watch. But everyone needs to understand that this tape is a testament to the depth of the hatred against the United States, not just among terrorists but throughout much of the Arab world.

This tape is a weapon.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/ … 9059.shtml

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#12 2002-05-15 13:46:07

Christina
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2002-05-07
Posts: 59

Re: The time has come to drop The Mars Petition.... - Drop the Mars Petition

Yet, just to be a nuisance, it's when things are less than perfect that people can get motivated to DO something about it.

When life is wonderful and easy folks just start to relax and go with it. Innovation and development start to slide.

But have a target, and an obstacle in between you and it, and that's when things really start to happen.


the early bird may get the worm, but it's the second mouse that gets the cheese

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#13 2002-05-15 15:20:45

Phobos
Member
Registered: 2002-01-02
Posts: 1,103

Re: The time has come to drop The Mars Petition.... - Drop the Mars Petition

Certainly people get motivated into action when things
need improving, but I think the situation is somewhat reversed for Mars in that there are people who demand that social problems like starvation, homelessness, etc. be perfectly solved before we go to Mars.  To make a long statement short, I think the problem with Mars is that a lot of people seem to think we shouldn't go until we actually reach what is in their eyes a perfect society.   They seem to think that as long as "society" remains "imperfect" no money should be allocated for Mars. 
     As for having a target and an obstacle in the way, I think Zubrin basically has the right idea that if we could just get
the funding without government help our biggest obstacle
will be vanquished.  The motivation such obstacles can cause might lead to a better Mars program then if the gov't was to
just do some half-baked stroll around Mars and then forget it.


To achieve the impossible you must attempt the absurd

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#14 2002-06-02 16:22:54

robcwillis
Member
Registered: 2001-09-23
Posts: 71

Re: The time has come to drop The Mars Petition.... - Drop the Mars Petition

Dear Phobos,

You have misrepresented Dr. Zubrin. He endorses maximum encouragement of governments and their agencies to support human exporation of Mars. He also favours fostering private or "independant" endevours that contribute towards this goal. Only a fool could believe that we will ever see humans reach another planet through any means other than a public effort; that is to say a government supported programme.

People opposed to a large scale publically funded effort that fully utilizes NASA and other existing resources are the only real obstacle on the road to Mars.

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#15 2002-06-30 10:57:43

GOM
Member
Registered: 2001-09-08
Posts: 127

Re: The time has come to drop The Mars Petition.... - Drop the Mars Petition

People opposed to a large scale publically funded effort that fully utilizes NASA and other existing resources are the only real obstacle on the road to Mars.[/quote:post_uid0]
hmmm

Given NASA's track record in connection with Mars, some of us have to wonder if NASA is the real obstacle to a manned mission to Mars.

I wish a MMM was possible without NASA.  But it seems highly unlikely.

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#16 2003-07-16 12:12:54

prometheusunbound
Member
From: ohio
Registered: 2003-07-02
Posts: 209
Website

Re: The time has come to drop The Mars Petition.... - Drop the Mars Petition

[color=#FF0000:post_uid0]hate to be an optimist but the world is way better than it was in the middle ages for most people anyways. .. .africa does have its problems but that is mostly from starvation due to the fact that immunization saved so many that would have died of diaseses.  I certianly think we have come some way as a nation (usa). . . .

anyways the defination of poverty is rather subjective, and changes time to time.  in the middle ages the middle class had a standard of living equilivant to trailer park living.  The nobilty were only slightly better, with a standard equilivant to the lower middle class today in america.  From the standpoint of the early 1900s we have come a long way, too, with electric power and plumbing. 

I doubt war will ever be banished, as there is always a time for war.  I am sure the frequency of war will quiet down at times but there will always be war, and only a damn-fool idealist will believe war can be banished.

Poverty is subjective and relative, so we will always have that.  But, from a objective standpoint, it is better to keep improving the material quality of life for everyone. . .[/color:post_uid0]


"I am the spritual son of Abraham, I fear no man and no man controls my destiny"

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#17 2003-07-25 18:23:38

space_psibrain
Member
Registered: 2002-02-15
Posts: 83

Re: The time has come to drop The Mars Petition.... - Drop the Mars Petition

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

The Mars Petition

The time has come for humanity to journey to Mars.

Humanity yearns for a challenge, one that will let us exercise the limitless potential, now dormant, that lies waiting within ourselves. The prospects facing our generation have never been greater; with world peace, unprecedented economic growth, and extraordinary technological innovation, we find ourselves at the threshold of a new millennium of opportunity. The human exploration of Mars will be our generation's crowning achievement."[/quote:post_uid0]

I will admit that the world will always have problems, that there will never be complete world peace, and that our economy is taking a hit, but WHAT BETTER REASON IS THERE TO GO TO MARS?

If we choose a different path to mars than simply the path that will bring us there and let a small crew stay for a short while, if we choose the most ambitious path, the path that will lead to permanent colonization, then, we may find a revival.

In doing this, we may indeed boost our economy so, that the current trends of today may be reversed.

As for world peace, organizations are working every day to try to bring that about, and eventually, there will at least be some semblance of world peace. The time to journey to Mars is not when it is all at peace, when the situation is ideal. Thirty four years ago, when mankind landed a person on the moon, it was definitely not a time of world peace....and yet the spinoffs of Apollo and those other mssions serve us still

Remember the words "We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon and do the other things, [b:post_uid0][i:post_uid0][u:post_uid0]not because they are easy, but because they are hard[/u:post_uid0][/i:post_uid0][/b:post_uid0]"[/color:post_uid0]


"What you don't realize about peace, is that is cannot be achieved by yielding to an enemy. Rather, peace is something that must be fought for, and if it is necessary for a war to be fought to preserve the peace, then I would more than willingly give my life for the cause of peace."

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