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#1 2021-01-23 12:11:39

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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,432

Possible Water Processes on Mars, Involving Hydrogen Peroxide.

Possible Water Processes on Mars, Involving Hydrogen Peroxide.
I am only interested in this one topic at this time.  I am not reviewing or adding to any other topics.
For my purposes, I put this under Martian water topics.   However I draw heavily on scientific works that are available on the web, which speculate on possible Martian life.  They often mention life forms on Earth that are tolerant of H2O2, and they also reveal some amazing possibilities for potentintial living and non-living processes in an environment like Mars.
I have had a history of trying to find an underground condensation process for Mars in the past, but could not get it very far.  As it happens some of these scientists think that a mixture of liquid water and Hydrogen Peroxide should be possible underground on Mars.   I would anticipate that salts would also be involved in this solution with unknown results understood by me.
I was looking into this, trying to think how the ice slabs on Mars may have formed by a condensation process, but came up empty.
Some information, I will not describe H20, as that is common knowledge.
H2O2, however has a melting point just a tiny bit lower than that of water.  -0.43 degC/31.23.
It has a boiling point of 150.2 degC/302.4 degC.
The only part about these numbers, is that H2O2 should have a higher vapor pressure than water, which would be important for Mars.
But I stumbled upon some very valuable information about Hydrogen Peroxide and water being able to form a "Eutec mixture" exhibiting a freezing point depressed as low as -56 C.
So, this became interesting to me.
It is thought that H202 is formed on Mars by Triboelectricity, from dust devils, and I think likely global dust storms as well.  I have seen suggestions that H202 can be formed by UV light as well.
It is felt that it snows H202 in very fine particles.   It is also said by life proponents, that cells that had H202 in them could absorb water directly out of the Martian atmosphere.
(Just a little segway, I wonder how Lichen absorb mositure out of the atmosphere, without an observed liquid state of water, in the Antarctic, Arctic, and in fact in Mars simulation experiments).
So if it snows H202 on Mars, then per several lines above, I speculate, that the warming of day might allow H202 snow to thaw, and absorb water directly from the atmosphere.   I don't so much think that enough liquid would form to create a liquid drainage, but I speculate that on evaporating, there would be good chances for the vapors to migrate into the deeper soil, and again combine with water, and also encounter salts.
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OK now I am going to try to speculate on a method where ice may accumulate under soil, involving a freeze/thaw cycle(s).
Lets start with the Arctic ice pack.  It has brine channels in it, where  little microbes can live.   It has a source of "Heat" below it which is the frigid sea water.  In it's freeze thaw cycles, it can push brine into the sea, from up to down.   The remaining ice can loose so much salt this way, that it becomes pure enough that if melted, it can be consumed by humans.
For Mars "Ice Packs", (Ice Slabs), there could be brine channels as well, containing H202, H20, and salts, and dissolved gasses.   I can only partially think of how this would work.  If there were freeze thaw cycles, then the brine may try to move downward, but perhaps it does not always find a path that allows, it.  So, then the brine channels upon freezing, would make the ice body swell.   And I am hoping that this would be how the ice slabs would thicken over time, and push the regolith cover over them upward, as the ice thickens.
It is now believed that there are smaller deposits even near the equator in some places.  The standard explanation is that Mars had a different climate due to the tilt of axis, and that the water got there, by snowfall.   However it is hard to understand how the water has remained there for so long, without evaporating off.
So, I am trying to develop a condensation process, but if it turns out to be false, there may still be a way to involve H202 in an ice conservation notion.   That is if these slabs formed from snow of water, but some H202 coated the ice, this may retard evaporation, as H202 can suck water out of the atmosphere.
The vapor pressure of such a mixture may be considerably lower than that for H20 liquid. 
A H2O2/H20/salt ice may have protective properties as per ice mass evaporation.  I simply don't know.
I am guessing that for a freeze cycle, H20 crystals may form first.  Also salts in solutions may precipitate out due to temperature, and concentration.
So, if we have H20 condensing out during a energy drop, then if things warm up, the Hydrogen Peroxide may absorb water vapor from the soil above, and that of course would come from the atmosphere.
If the condensation process were real, then there would be a tug of war between the soil free ice caps at the pole, and the underground condensates.
Still though a little segway, is it possible that the Lake(s) which may be evident under the Southern cap could be a mixture of H202/H20/Salts, and some dissolved gasses?   Just a note that dissolved CO2, could also depress the freezing point.   I do not know what the results of a mix of H202/H2O/Salts/CO2 might be.   Clathrates formed?  Liquid formed.  And of course this solution would be under a fairly high pressure from the ices above.
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A fluxuating energy source would be needed to create the freeze/thaw subsurface model.
We have the variations in;
the tilt of Axis; 
Seasons;
Dust storms/Dust Devils. (With troboelectric outputs presumed);
Possibly varying humidity.
It is true that you can cool water by blowing dry air above it.   Is it possible that you can warm water by adding humidity?   (In this case the water I would be thinking of would be brines).
However, the regolith coverings for these ice slabs are rather thick.  I am not sure that all of these temperature variations can be felt very well at the interface between the soil covering and the ice body.
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As I borrowed so much from the life sciences people, I will speculate on possible life, although I lay no claim that it is real.  I simply speculate on possibility.
In the case of Carbon Monoxide, here on Earth, various microbes consume it, and others make it.   Particularly in certain hot springs, I think in Siberia.
If there was subsurface life on Mars, might it also do somilar for H202?   In other words being adapted to H202, might it manipulate it's environment by creating H202?
So, we have a source of Oxygen, and also I note that for some reason, scientists have speculated that significant concentration of Oxygen might be found in cold brines.
But what for food?
-Troiboelectricty.  (We have organisms that might use that right here on Earth).
-Carbon Monoxide.   Well, I have seen some reports that there is not enough on Mars.  I don't think that is true, as we have microbes that suck it and H2 out of our atmosphere, and our concentration of CO is much below that of Mars.   We also have the possibility that organisms might have a method to concentrate CO.   Humans have Hemoglobin, but often die if they absorb too much CO.
-Rust>Hydrogen.   A water solution in contact with rocks may rust the rocks and produce H2.
-Radiation.   I believe this can be from radioactive decay, but might also be from space radiation, to split CO2, H20, and perhaps Nitrogen, ect.
-Methane seeps.  If there is Methane underground as Clathrates, sometimes it appears it might leak into upper layers of soil, and then the atmosphere.
------
This material may be important for anyone hoping to colonize Mars.
I feel that if there is life, it would have a very hard time adapting to Earth, and certainly the warm human body.
Similarly I don't think that most Earth life could do very well in the ice slabs.
But it may be important to think on all of this.
I will add some references in another post when I have time.   There is one that suggests that the early Earth may have had H202 in it's rain, and that early life may have been compatible with it.
In that case panspermia, of such organisms would have been very likely, so, any life on Earth and Mars might very well have the same roots.   Mars would have continued with H202, and Earth would have mostly discarded it, as the sun warmed up.
Done for now.


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#2 2021-01-23 18:48:28

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,432

Re: Possible Water Processes on Mars, Involving Hydrogen Peroxide.

References for the previous post:
NASA’s Curiosity Rover Uncovers Liquid Brine Conditions on Martian Surface
https://www.vaisala.com/en/blog/2020-02 … an-surface
A Hydrogen Peroxide and water mix:
www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=156627
Quote:

This is how freezing out to concentrate the solution works
Hydrogen peroxide and water form a eutectic mixture, exhibiting freezing-point depression down as low as –56 °C; pure water has a freezing point of 0 °C and pure hydrogen peroxide of −0.43 °C. The boiling point of the same mixtures is also depressed in relation with the mean of both boiling points (125.1 °C). It occurs at 114 °C. This boiling point is 14 °C greater than that of pure water and 36.2 °C less than that of pure hydrogen peroxide.

So, the mix should be relatively stable at a cold temperature under typical Martian surface and sub-surface pressures.
An interesting search phrase:
"early life on earth and hydrogen peroxide"
A fetch for it:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4535408/
Quote:

The life story of hydrogen peroxide II: a periodic pH and thermochemical drive for the RNA world

"Hydrogen Peroxide, bringer of life", a very good article:
https://www.airspacemag.com/daily-plane … 20appeared.
Quote:

The freezing point of such a mixture is very low, and the hygroscopic properties of hydrogen peroxide would allow cells to extract water directly from the atmosphere, which would be a great adaptation mechanism for any Martian microbe.

"Oxygen and Hydrogen Peroxide in the early evolution of life"
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ast.2011.0704
OK, there is some reading materials for the curious, that I feel do suport some or most of my previous post.
Enjoy your web site, it is not so much that I am angry, but I think I wll get angry if I interact too much at NewMars.com   So, I can do without the psychological damage.  I will limit contact.
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