Enviromentalists and Techocrats - The unholy union

prometheusunbound · 2003-07-15 12:43:56

I was thinking the other day about techocrats and enviromentalists and their similarities (suprisinlgy, there are more similarities than differences!)

Techocrats-belief in advancement of technology for the betterment of the lives of men.

Enviromentalists-Belief in the protection of nature for the betterment of the lives of men. ( if not for man, what is it for?)

Techocrats-high tide in the 1920s and 1930s

Enviromentalists-high tide in 1970-80s

if techos and greenies are for the same ideal (advancement of the betterment of the lives of men) why don't they work hand in hand?

ex. nuclear power. Nuclear waste is contained, while coal is not. No sane persons would contain coal waste as it is too toxic and copoius to even remotely consider storing it. Nuclear waste is storable. What do we do with it? Store it, of course, and when the technolgy comes, shoot it into the sun (pernement disposal) and enjoy cheap and clean energy. (cheap energy really does help the common people, read your history and look at the public power initiatives of the 1930s, 1940s)

ex. Oil conservation. Techology can be used to preserve our (yes, our) enviroment by conserving oil in hybird engines and possibly promoting rail travel.

I believe that the establishment has strong ties to both the techocrat movement and the enviromentalist movement primarally because it is in their interest to do so.
ex. in south america peasants were driven off their land, then the logging companies logged the now "protected" forest.
ex. Glomar explorer, the ship that was to mine the oceans was in fact a navy deep sea subrimarine retrival vehicle (it took russian sub wrecks to steal secrets)

Is this good or bad? (green/techo ties to establishment) tell me what you think.

Palomar · 2003-07-15 13:25:47

if techos and greenies are for the same ideal (advancement of the betterment of the lives of men) why don't they work hand in hand?

*Interesting post. Given the complexity of the situation of Establishment ties to techies and greenies, I'll opt to avoid it.

However, I have a comment on your question: They can work hand-in-hand. Already, it seems, the conflict between technophiles and greenies has polarized into a situation akin to "Jesus versus Satan" in the Western mind-set.

I consider myself a technoenvironmentalist. Humans have more than the capacity to THINK through any sort of difficulty and arrive at reasonable and beneficial decisions. Trouble is, many people are intellectually lazy and are drawn towards polarities, and find themselves in the "either or - or else" clashes.

Technology and environmentalism do not have to be bitter, biting enemies or antithetical.

--Cindy

Free Spirit · 2003-07-15 16:36:21

A lot of environmentalists fear that the advancement of science and technology is going in a direction that's seeks to dominate nature rather than preserve it. Some examples include genetically altered plants and animals that might escape into the wild that will either outcompete or decimate the ability of their wild cousins to reproduce and military technologies which aren't exactly renown for their environmental record (see this for instance.) Ultimately a lot of environmentalists believe that technological advancement alienates us further and further from nature. John Zerzan covers these topics in most of his books. As soon as I find it I'll post his definition of technology from the "Nihilist's Dictionary."

Josh Cryer · 2003-07-15 17:20:25

I, being what one might call a technocrat, often find myself in complete opposition with radical environmentalists. I do find a lot of common ground, though, with the sane environmentalists, and I consider myself an environmentalist of sorts.

Deep ecologists believe in eradicating humanity so that the environment can exist without us bothering it. So in that respect, some rather radical environmentalists are in complete opposition of technocrats.

In any case, I wholeheartedly agree with your statements, and I find it odd that many deep ecologists think they could even achieve their overall goals without the intervention of technology in some form or another.

prometheusunbound · 2003-07-18 10:40:02

But the fact is, "we don't know how these sonars affect whales," said Bob Gisiner, who runs the Office of Naval Research's marine mammal study programs. "We know they're loud. But there are other loud sounds in the ocean."
But for the Navy to comply with the Marine Mammals Protection Act, Reynolds added, the service has to show that LFA tests have a "negligible" effect on local whales. That's something the Navy hasn't been able to do. Nor has the military been able to demonstrate they considered "all reasonable alternatives."

I agree that what the navy is doing is probably not good for the enviroment as 8 whales were killed. . . . .but I doubt the hearing of the whales are affected simply b/c the whales make some pretty big noises themselves in the water. The whales were killed from the size of the bandwidth and its intensity. I wouldn't worry about whales going deaf but the bandwidth (it is huge) is enough to kill pretty much everything within a certain range of the sonar. unfortantly, there is no real alternate for the navy to pick up, as lower (therably bigger) bandwidth is the best way to go when it comes to sonar. however, there is one other thing that could be done. Stealth technology (the stuff on the f-22) could be used to make sonar an obosolute technology (stealth tech works with sonar, too) and that might remove sonar from the ocean.

Ian · 2003-07-23 11:55:41

There are people who live near me that complain about the deer being on or near there property. I live neer the woods and that's where the deer are. The developers that build houses in my neighborhood build them on their territory and naturally there will be people who will complain about that. Why should they complain when it's their fault that they moved into their territory?

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#1 2003-07-15 12:43:56

Re: Enviromentalists and Techocrats - The unholy union

#2 2003-07-15 13:25:47

Re: Enviromentalists and Techocrats - The unholy union

#3 2003-07-15 16:36:21

Re: Enviromentalists and Techocrats - The unholy union

#4 2003-07-15 17:20:25

Re: Enviromentalists and Techocrats - The unholy union

#5 2003-07-18 10:40:02

Re: Enviromentalists and Techocrats - The unholy union

#6 2003-07-23 11:55:41

Re: Enviromentalists and Techocrats - The unholy union

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