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#576 2021-01-09 19:20:19

SpaceNut
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

If you do not know where the meat comes from you are more likely to eat a friend (Pet) oh I mean an animal.
People were eating lots of things through the centuries long before food processing plants came into being and many places still do.
Now only if a cow came in the size of a rabbit...never mind.

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#577 2021-01-09 19:37:31

tahanson43206
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Still on the subject of food preparation at Mars Habitat pressure, here is a snippet that Google came up with .... I'd been getting all sorts of unrelated guesses (by the AI) as to what I was asking, but in this case, the guess included the exact information i was seeking ...

NWS JetStream - Air Pressure
www.weather.gov › jetstream › pressure
Therefore, the air pressure is the same in the space station as the earth's ... level from one location to another, especially when the elevations of each site differ. ... Weather maps showing the pressure at the surface are drawn using millibars. ... So, while the average altitude of the 500 millibar level is around 18,000 feet ...

I've been looking for a location on Earth where the proposed Mars Habitat pressure (and the corresponding Large Ship pressure) could be tested in safety on Earth, without having to invest in expensive vacuum equipment.

It would appear that a mountain that reaches 18,000 feet is a candidate location.

Something that relates to this is the observation I noticed in several citations that pressure at a mountain top varies with the weather, just as it does at sea level, but the range of variation (apparently) can be more extreme.  Several citations made the point that pressure at a location (such as a mountain top)_is also determined by temperature.

A Mars habitat, or the Large Ship would (presumably) be engineered to try to hold pressure and gas mixtures to a fairly tight specification.

Apparently there are only two mountains in the United States that meet the measure, and they are both in Alaska ...

Home > United States > United States Geography > Mountain Peaks in the United States Higher Than 14,000 Feet

Cite
Mountain Peaks in the United States Higher Than 14,000 Feet

The following table lists the mountain peaks in the U.S. that surpass 14,000 feet, along with their height and their state.
Name     State     Height
(ft.)
Denali 1     Alaska     20,320
Mt. St. Elias     Alaska     18,008
Mt. Foraker     Alaska     17,400
Mt. Bona     Alaska     16,500
Mt. Blackburn     Alaska     16,390
Mt. Sanford     Alaska     16,237
Mt. Vancouver     Alaska     15,979
South Buttress     Alaska     15,885
Mt. Churchill     Alaska     15,638
Mt. Fairweather     Alaska     15,300
There are quite a few more in this list ...

Here is a snippet from a table of mountains in Canada ...

Rank     Mountain peak     Province     Mountain range     Elevation     Prominence     Isolation     Location
1     Mount Logan[1][2][e]      Yukon     Saint Elias Mountains     5956 m
19,541 ft     5247 m
17,215 ft     623 km
387 mi     60.5671°N 140.4055°W

2     Mount Saint Elias[3][4][f]      Alaska
Yukon     Saint Elias Mountains     5489 m
18,009 ft     3429 m
11,250 ft     41.3 km
25.6 mi     60.2927°N 140.9307°W

3     Mount Lucania     Yukon     Saint Elias Mountains     5260 m
17,257 ft     3080 m
10,105 ft     43 km
26.7 mi     61.0215°N 140.4661°W

If Mount Saint Elias had a visitor cabin at or near the summit, it could serve as a test site for Mars Habitat cooking.

The cold of the environment would be a reasonable match for the Mars environment as well.

Edit: I listened to the City State competition presentation again (Video 35) and caught another aspect of cooking to think about ...

The presenter offered the suggestion that taste may be impacted by reduced atmospheric pressure.  I've not heard of that before.  My general impression is that meals served on air liners at altitude are as enjoyable as they are at sea level.  Still, it is probably worth keeping the possibility in mind. 

Edit#2: From the Wikipedia citation on Mount Saint Elias ...

Mount Saint Elias is infrequently climbed today, despite its height, because it has no easy route to the summit and because of its prolonged periods of bad weather (mainly snow and low visibility).[citation needed]

It might be a whole lot simpler to just make a vacuum chamber in a nice location at sea level.

On the other hand, a test kitchen ** could ** be delivered to the top (or near the top) of the mountain, and personnel could be airlifted in and out.

Google came up with this:

Turbine-engined helicopters can reach around 25,000 feet. But the maximum height at which a helicopter can hover is much lower - a high performance helicopter like the Agusta A109E can hover at 10,400 feet.

Oh well !!!

(th)

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#578 2021-01-09 21:19:26

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Cooking will be done indoors, at controlled temperatures. But there has been some work re cooking at altitude, you could Google that.

By the way, first location that comes to mind is Mount Everest base camp. Not the summit. I believe base camp has a building of some sort. Altitude 5600 metres = 18,372 feet.

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#579 2021-01-09 21:48:09

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Water boils @ 81.01°C = 177.88°F at 18,000 feet.

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#580 2021-01-10 06:44:29

tahanson43206
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #578 ... Now! You're talking!  Excellent!  And! The government of Nepal is likely to welcome tourist dollars.

And! (inspired by movies of Everest climbs) ... the aura of being a Mars training location might appeal to the people of Nepal.

It ** should ** certainly appeal to the leaders of China, who are already thinking about setting up shop on Mars.

***
Regarding your point about cooking indoors .... somehow you've missed the point I tried to make earlier ...

The "indoors" you've specified will be maintained at .5 bar.  The cooking will be done at the equivalent of Earth 18,000 feet.

A pressure cooker might be able to bring pressure up to Earth sea level, which would allow for Earth equivalent cooking times where pressure is a factor.

I'm still not clear on how pressure affects roasting.  One reference I found suggested it is NOT a factor.

It would be helpful for your chef advisor to know what (they) are going to be dealing with.  It is a minor challenge to be operating at only .38G.  It is likely to be much more than a miner annoyance to be condemned to .5bar for ** life **.

(th)

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#581 2021-01-10 11:07:20

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Is that a bad thing? You want to be able to go outside without hours of oxygen prebreathing. Of course if someone wants to build a homestead with higher pressure, they can. It's up to them.

I suspect frying will be the same a low pressure. Only boiled foods will be affected because water boils at a lower temperature. I wonder how microwave ovens will be affected? How will baked or roasted foods be affected? Ovens operate at higher than boiling temperature, but foods still have moisture.

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#582 2021-01-10 12:21:35

tahanson43206
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #581

The question of roasting deserves to be tested, and since it is practical to do so at the Mount Everest base camp, I am guessing there is already a great deal of experience.  In addition (come to think of it) ... the people of Nepal (and probably Tibet) already must have centuries of experience with food preparation at that altitude, although I recognize they spend most of their time much further down the mountain.

Do you think there would be any interest on the part of the government of Nepal, in an initiative along the lines under discussion here?

Would NASA be willing to allocate some of its precious funds for support of a research facility there?

***
Speaking of research .... your proposal for a rotating ship needs to be tested in space with an engineering model.

Is there a potential source of grant funds to pay for an experiment?

The smaller launch companies are now offering packages that are financially attractive.

There is even one that (if I read the reports correctly) will take care of all of the messy details of securing approval for launch, as well as downloading data via various pathways.

I'd like to see that serious hurdle cleared.

The first experiment will undoubtedly fail to achieve the needed stability.

You (and your engineering team) will learn a lot from a flight experiment.

(th)

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#583 2021-01-10 12:34:09

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Google: Mountain cooking altitude
Several results, here are a couple.
Mountain Mama Cooks: High Altitude Cooking and Baking
NY Times: It’s Harder to Make Meals in the Mountains
The Times article quotes the Department of Agriculture with a link.

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#584 2021-01-10 12:56:52

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

One simple experiment I have called for several times on this forum is rotation with a capsule. This wouldn't cost much. A crew capsule scheduled to return to Earth from ISS, with crew aboard would separate from ISS a significant distance for safety. This could be Crew Dragon, Boeing Starliner, or Russian Soyuz. A cargo capsule with all cargo removed and filled with garbage, destined to deorbit and burn up in the atmosphere anyway. This could be Cargo Dragon, Cygnus, Japanese HTV, or Russian Progress. Attach the two with a tether and spin. Spin at sufficient rate for artificial gravity. I'm not dictating whether that would be Mars level or Earth level, but significant. Then do an orbital adjustment... while spinning. Yes, it can be done. Just time thruster bursts to always pull the tether, never push. You can't push a string. The adjustment just has to be enough to simulate a mid-couse correction on the way to Mars. The reason for separating from ISS is in case something goes wrong. And you would not use Cargo Dragon with experiments to be returned to Earth, just garbage. Again in case something goes wrong. If you have to sacrifice one capsule to save the other, if one has astronauts while the other has garbage, it's a no-brainer.

This is the next logical step after Gemini 11. That docked a crewed capsule with an Agena target vehicle, attached a tether and spin for a small amount of artificial gravity. They didn't do an orbital adjustment while spinning. Gemini 11 was September 1966.

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#585 2021-01-10 14:26:13

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Other tests:

  • mini-magnetosphere: unmanned satellite to test radiation shielding. Ideally very high Earth orbit, outside Earth's magnetosphere. That requires more than twice the altitude of GEO.

  • Micro-fusion thruster: for mid-couse correction of the big ship. I want to use the one from a paper by NASA's advanced concepts. Can be tested in LEO.

  • Chloroplast oxygen generator: this is advanced but can be done on Earth

  • Develop Alon: Surmet already makes this for the US Army, but price is an issue. Patent has expired, but we need to make it. And I suggested manufacturing it on the Moon

  • Recycling shower: an idea I got from a UK design student

  • Vacuum dedicating toilet with built-in bidet, designed for gravity.

  • Fix NASA's design for urine processing assembly

  • Processing concentrated human urine to fertilizer for hydroponics

  • Robot to bus tables

What else?

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#586 2021-01-11 09:23:46

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Another test: launch the Centrifuge Accomodation Module for ISS. I mentioned this a few times. Built by Japan, paid by Italy. Supposed to be launched by Space Shuttle, but just wasn't. Could be launched today with Atlas V or Falcon Heavy, with a Cygnus service module to rendezvous with ISS. Would test Moon level and Mars level gravity on laboratory mammals. Long duration effects.

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#587 2021-01-11 10:28:02

tahanson43206
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re posts about tests ...

Good list! 

The test I would like to see is of your concept for a ship that rotates in it's entirety.  This is an attractive concept because it eliminates the complexity and frailty of bearings between the ship and the rotating habitat.  However, as you showed us long ago in this topic, there are gyroscopic stability risks, and in any case, the ability to change the orientation of the vessel before thrust events is not proven (that I know of).

A small model of your design could be placed into orbit, with all the features you determine should work to allow for navigation, and with communications capability to accept commands from the ground, and to report sensor readings.

This is the single point of failure in your concept, and I'd like to see it retired as soon as possible.

You've described at least one concept for pulsed propulsion to change orientation of the vessel.  I consider this to be a use of mass that should be avoided if possible.  The traditional way of changing orientation of a space satellite (without expending mass) is using momentum wheels as the primary method, and expending mass as a backup.

In the case of your design (as I understand it) the vessel itself is a gigantic momentum wheel, and the project is to change the pointing of the axis of the wheel.

That is precisely NOT what a traditional satellite orientation momentum wheel configuration would want to do.  Instead, the satellite is moved about the momentum wheel, which maintains a steady orientation.

(th)

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#588 2021-01-11 20:22:54

SpaceNut
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

The moon as a mining supply house has a fuel problem for breaking into earth orbit as the moon has limited lunar water to make hydrogen based fuels from. So it might be more to favor shipping the critical stuff from earth while making panel like materials from the moon to L1 as it would require less lunar resources to get the materials to the building location.

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#589 2021-01-12 03:27:28

Quaoar
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Posts: 503

Re: Large scale colonization ship

RobertDyck wrote:

Water boils @ 81.01°C = 177.88°F at 18,000 feet.

Why not to use a pressure cooker?
We Italians use it when we want to make a good spaghetti in the Alps.

Last edited by Quaoar (2021-01-12 03:28:12)

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#590 2021-01-12 09:05:54

tahanson43206
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

For Quaoar re #589

Your post is perfect for the question I've been waiting for the right time to ask ... I have no experience with pressure cookers, other than seeing them used for canning home produce.

Can a pressure cooker be set to operate at Earth sea level pressure?  I have no idea if there is a dial on the cooker, but there might be.

In connection with your post ... RobertDyck found that a base camp on Mount Everest is located at (just about) the right location so that atmospheric pressure matches his proposed pressure inside a Mars habitat, or inside the cabin of his Large Ship.

Is there a location in the Alps which comes close to matching the elevation of the Mount Everest base camp?

The elevation of that camp is reported to be near 5,600 meters.

An advantage to a location in Europe is that a Mars Analogue Research Station could be set up more conveniently than would be the case for Nepal.

Since you are a writer, it seems possible (to me at least) you might be able to work the discussion of optimum atmospheric pressure and gas mixture for Mars and for space flight into your novels.

The Star Trek magic is unlikely to become available any time soon.  In the mean time, your intrepid travelers might be well advised to follow the guidelines published by RobertDyck earlier in this topic.

(th)

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#591 2021-01-12 21:56:02

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Quaoar wrote:

Why not to use a pressure cooker?
We Italians use it when we want to make a good spaghetti in the Alps.

I posted a couple links with recipes for pressure cooker. It's a good idea.

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#592 2021-01-12 22:01:27

tahanson43206
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck .... here is a report on a significant advance in robotic cooking ... the work was done in England ...

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/world-f … 00153.html

Apparently the device still needs human assistance with some prep work ...

Still, 5000 recipes is a decent repertoire.

(th)

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#593 2021-01-12 22:17:25

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Um, this is for cooking research? Kind of extreme. A quick Google says Monte Bianco / Mont Blanc is the tallest mountain in Italy @ 4808 metres. The very summit of that mountain has 10% more pressure than I recommended. Is it worth it?

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#594 2021-01-13 08:20:22

tahanson43206
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #593

Cooking Research is an important responsibility of the (proposed) "Real Deal" Mars Analogue Research Station ...

The primary purpose (as I am thinking if it now) is to prove or falsify your hypothesis that people can safely transition from habitat to Mars suit and back without pre-breathing.  The 10% extra pressure may be too much.  It seems to me we just don't know.

If the facility can be built at all (Here I'm thinking about politics as well as technical details) then we would potentially have an automatic collaboration between nations in Europe and the Mars Society.

I am hoping that Quaoar will be willing (and in a position?) to serve as ambassador to the appropriate authorities in Europe.

We would want to see a fully funded station with all the tools and procedures needed to train applicants for life on Mars.

Mars will seem balmy compared to the environment likely to exist at 5600 meters on Earth.

Edit#1: If the extra 10% of pressure ** can ** be proven to work, then the habitats will have to be constructed to withstand the extra pressure, and other consequences will flow from the change.

For that reason, I propose we contact the Nepalese Embassy in Washington to see if they are interested in working with the Mars Society, and with China (their neighbor) to develop a concept for a full-up Mars Analogue Research Station on Mount Everest.

A collaboration between nations in Asia would be a nice counterpart to a collaboration between nations in Europe.

Exchange of scientific data (and it's global publication) would be a reasonable expectation. 

Edit#2: If a reader from Nepal would like to pursue this idea, you are welcome to contact me via NewMarsMember * gmail.com

If a reader from China would like to pursue this idea for a station on the Chinese side of Mount Everest, you are likewise welcome to email the above.

(th)

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#595 2021-01-13 11:07:20

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

In the book "The Case For Mars", Robert Zubrin proposed using the same pressure as Skylab. It worked for Skylab so a Mars habitat could as well. He also assumed the same spacesuit as Apollo or something similar. I'm proposing an MPC suit based in Dr Paul Webb's prototype from 1967. That suit was developed specifically for the surface of the Moon, but wasn't ready in time for Apollo 11. Skylab used 5.0 psi with 60% O2 / 40% N2. The Apollo command module used 5.0 psi with 100% pure O2. What I proposed is safer. None of this is new.

Of course Apollo used packaged ready-to-eat food, and Skylab used food that only needed to be heated. Shuttle used dehydrated food. They didn't cook.

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#596 2021-01-13 11:11:39

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Ps. I spent the last couple weeks helping my girlfriend to get her 82 year old father to renew his driver license, vehicle and house insurance, and setup banking from a smartphone app so he can bank from home. He has major memory issues. I suspect he has Alzheimer's. The word "frustrating" is an understatement.

::Edit:: This has actually been going on for 2 months. We finally got it resolved today. And her Dad forgot what the driver license renewal paperwork was, so wanted to throw it away.

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#597 2021-01-13 12:43:46

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

tahanson43206, your goals are ambitious and sound good. I'm frustrated on many levels. I have been a member of the Liberal Party of Canada since Paul Martin became leader in 2004. I won the nomination for the federal election in my riding (electoral district) in 2007 for the 2008 election. But I was "buried". Moderates or "fiscally responsible Liberals" such as Paul Martin Liberals are now treated as outsiders. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau demanded the in-fighting within the party stop, but it really hasn't. The government has become far too extreme left-wing. The other party became extreme right-wing when they merged with the reform party. With all this COVID crap, citizens are getting militant. Then there's what's happening in the US. Former Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau was father if our current Prime Minister. Pierre said living beside the US is like sleeping with an elephant; you pay attention to every twitch. What's going on right now is far more than a twitch. US are badly mishandling everything. They appear determined to escalate. Violence could easily spill over here. My city is just 60 miles (100km) north of North Dakota.

You're trying to be sane. What you say sounds reasonable. At this point I have utter skepticism that any government official will listen to anything sane.

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#598 2021-01-13 18:17:13

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 20,902

Re: Large scale colonization ship

RobertDyck, My own step dad has shown the deterioration with age at now 97 and as many as 5 years ago my sister bought a tablet for his enjoyment and to keep his mind fresh. As he did painting as a hobby loading up drawing and coloring to this device was a way to keep the mind active. Lots more activities are on the device an this point to help slow the progression of aging. He is still able to drive and does so as required passing the drivers test to be able to have that right which many take for granted as they age.
Of course even thou my mother is younger she has had a bad stroke of which it was hard on them both as she required his steadfast support as she healed for weeks in the hospital and hospice care facility. She is and never will be the same getting older by the days from the aging process. They are both slowing down but staying active is the key....

Edit
Last week Stepdad was outside and slipped and fell not being able to get back up. It hurt the pride to feel useless as mom came out side to help him up. After 3 or 4 days he did go to a doctor and was prescribed medication for depression and was otherwise ok with bruise but mostly to his ego...Part of the issue is the isolation that the pandemic has caused. Once the weather is no longer in winter we will be in better shape as going outside will not be a problem and he will feel much better with doing things in the yard....

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#599 2021-01-18 22:27:51

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Ok, focus on the ship. Events for 2020 & '21 are insane.

I said a greenhouse to grow fresh salad and fresh vegetables, and aquaponics so fresh tiaplia fish. What exactly should we grow on the ship?

The chloroplast oxygen generator will produce copious quantities of starch. Once a settlement is established on Mars, greenhouses there will produce stored food for the ship, for both directions. That means food in the buffet will be vegan, stored food from Earth for fine dining. But again, fine dining is free for passengers in luxury cabins, but costs for everyone else. That means stored food must be something that can keep for 2 years. Food from Earth must keep for 6 months.

Stored food could be canned, frozen, or dried. Bread can be baked onboard from flour. Pasta can be stored dry. Beans can be dry, not canned. They can be soaked to rehydrate and cooked. Steaks from Earth can be shrink-wrapped and frozen. You want as much as possible dried, to reduce weight.

Would passengers accept starch pudding as a substitute for mashed potatoes? It doesn't even remotely look or taste the same. It tastes and smells like freshly baked bread, but is white and translucent with consistency of pudding. Think of Hawaiian poi. Since the oxygen generator produces starch, this is made on the way, not stored.

So what does the greenhouse need to produce?

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#600 2021-01-19 18:56:03

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 20,902

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Leafy greens, radishes would be a good start along with other short duration growth plants....

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