Starship is Go...

SpaceNut · 2020-12-24 18:27:00

Yes GW says that he can hear the engine testing....as far as seeing it; sure would be something to witness first hand....

Tmcom · 2020-12-25 03:03:40

SpaceNut wrote:

Yes GW says that he can hear the engine testing....as far as seeing it; sure would be something to witness first hand....

At least solar panels on the moon makes sense, (no atmosphere, or clouds) and they could be strung around it, as the moon is one huge piece of land, and actually provide 24/7 power.

Not sure if the timeline will prevail with Trump gone and the new one putting other, less inspirational goals first.

GW Johnson · 2020-12-25 14:06:37

Merry Christmas to all, or whatever holiday you celebrate!

I live near the Spacex rocket test facility in McGregor, up in central Texas. Not the Boca Chica facility. That's about 400 miles from here where I live (yep, Texas is REALLY big, at about 800 x 800 miles; but you should have seen it before it entered the Union - stretched nearly to what is now Yellowstone Park).

The McGregor facility near me was once a bomb loading facility during WW2. At that time, the reservation was 20,000 acres. After the war, it became a government-owned, contractor-operated facility, of about 10,000 acres. I think they made pesticides, among other stuff.

Then it became a rocket test/development and manufacturing facility under Phillips Petroleum, I believe it was. That would be in the 1950's. They made composite propellant solid rockets that used AN as oxidizer. Started with the Mk 25 JATO, I think it was.

It went under a series of names and owners in the 1960's, becoming Rocketdyne Solid Rocket Division sometime before I went to work there in 1975. Still 10,000 acres. By the time I arrived, all the propellants were AP-oxidized, excepting only the old Mk 25 JATO propellant.

It switched hands to Hercules during my first 8-year tenure there. I did solid rocket and gas generator-fed ramjet work for them. We built our own direct-connect facility in which to do the ramjet work.

It was still Hercules my second 8-year tenure there, right up to the plant closure announcement. I left in the first wave of layoffs. It switched hands again to ATK for closure. Still 10,000 acres, destined for environmental clean-up by the Navy and operation by the city of McGregor as an industrial park. There are some fenced-off areas marked "no entry for a century", or words to that effect.

A few years later, one small area of the old plant became a liquid rocket test and development facility for Beal Aerospace, under banker Andy Beal's ownership. Beal wanted to enter the satellite launch business with a kerosene-hydrogen peroxide system. But he changed his mind and closed it after a few years.

Spacex started with that same small area about 2003-ish, to test and develop their LOX-kerosene engines for Falcon-1 and Falcon-9. They've been there ever since, expanding their acreage and their retinue. At first all they had was Beal's old tower-type thrust stand. Now their facility rivals what NASA uses in Huntsville.

Their thrust stands are about 30-35 seconds away from my house, line of sight, at the speed of sound. That's just over 6 statute miles, and right at 6 nautical miles. I cannot see anything directly, except the clouds of steam and smoke up into the sky, and maybe the glow of fire at night if it's a big one they test. It does rattle the windows severely.

There are no tours, only guests invited specifically by Spacex. Security is very tight. It's still only a fraction of the plant acreage that I knew, when I worked there.

GW

Oldfart1939 · 2020-12-25 17:03:10

Considering the launch cadence at SpaceX, there is simply no time for frills such as tours. I believe that some of the early Falcon 9 flights experimenting with landings was carried out at the McGregor test facility, as well as testing of the propulsion units.

SpaceNut · 2020-12-25 17:14:04

Virtual tours can still give alot of information that might want kept secret but then again it is a way to do out reach to the public....

GW Johnson · 2020-12-26 10:37:24

Spacex's launch cadence is high, and they plan on it going higher yet, as best I can tell. Everything that flies gets proof-tested at McGregor. Everything they develop gets experimentally-tested at McGregor. That includes all the engines for any of their vehicles, and all the thrusters, too. So the test cadence is very high indeed.

Oldfart1939 is quite correct about Spacex having flown "Grasshopper" at McGregor. The FAA restrictions were tighter than at Boca Chica, because there is no nearby open ocean. They had to stay over the site acreage, and under 2500 feet above ground level. The final "Grasshopper" test we saw at McGregor went out of control, and was destroyed to prevent its leaving that permitted airspace. That was a very loud "boom" I heard that day.

Not all the noise comes from Spacex. The north gunnery range at Fort Hood is only about 12-15 miles away, and there is a quarry near Crawford, about 7-8 miles away, where they do frequent blasting.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2020-12-26 10:38:32)

louis · 2020-12-28 17:05:34

Merry Christmas GW!

Your technically informed posts on Starship development are much appreciated.

Do you have an "earliest date" projection (not a prediction) for Starship orbital flight (ie what is the earliest possible date we could see a Starship orbit the Earth)?

GW Johnson wrote:

Merry Christmas to all, or whatever holiday you celebrate!
I live near the Spacex rocket test facility in McGregor, up in central Texas. Not the Boca Chica facility. That's about 400 miles from here where I live (yep, Texas is REALLY big, at about 800 x 800 miles; but you should have seen it before it entered the Union - stretched nearly to what is now Yellowstone Park).
The McGregor facility near me was once a bomb loading facility during WW2. At that time, the reservation was 20,000 acres. After the war, it became a government-owned, contractor-operated facility, of about 10,000 acres. I think they made pesticides, among other stuff.
Then it became a rocket test/development and manufacturing facility under Phillips Petroleum, I believe it was. That would be in the 1950's. They made composite propellant solid rockets that used AN as oxidizer. Started with the Mk 25 JATO, I think it was.
It went under a series of names and owners in the 1960's, becoming Rocketdyne Solid Rocket Division sometime before I went to work there in 1975. Still 10,000 acres. By the time I arrived, all the propellants were AP-oxidized, excepting only the old Mk 25 JATO propellant.
It switched hands to Hercules during my first 8-year tenure there. I did solid rocket and gas generator-fed ramjet work for them. We built our own direct-connect facility in which to do the ramjet work.
It was still Hercules my second 8-year tenure there, right up to the plant closure announcement. I left in the first wave of layoffs. It switched hands again to ATK for closure. Still 10,000 acres, destined for environmental clean-up by the Navy and operation by the city of McGregor as an industrial park. There are some fenced-off areas marked "no entry for a century", or words to that effect.
A few years later, one small area of the old plant became a liquid rocket test and development facility for Beal Aerospace, under banker Andy Beal's ownership. Beal wanted to enter the satellite launch business with a kerosene-hydrogen peroxide system. But he changed his mind and closed it after a few years.
Spacex started with that same small area about 2003-ish, to test and develop their LOX-kerosene engines for Falcon-1 and Falcon-9. They've been there ever since, expanding their acreage and their retinue. At first all they had was Beal's old tower-type thrust stand. Now their facility rivals what NASA uses in Huntsville.
Their thrust stands are about 30-35 seconds away from my house, line of sight, at the speed of sound. That's just over 6 statute miles, and right at 6 nautical miles. I cannot see anything directly, except the clouds of steam and smoke up into the sky, and maybe the glow of fire at night if it's a big one they test. It does rattle the windows severely.
There are no tours, only guests invited specifically by Spacex. Security is very tight. It's still only a fraction of the plant acreage that I knew, when I worked there.
GW

GW Johnson · 2020-12-29 13:40:12

Nope, no date for orbital flight. I know they are preparing SN-9 for some sort of test flight, but I don't know what they intend to do.

I suspect several test flights of Starship alone are needed before they attempt to reach orbit, and they have to have the Superheavy booster as well as Starship to do that.

Fully loaded, Starship alone is 120 tons inert + 100-ish tons payload + 1200 tons propellants = 1420 metric tons. That is 13.93 MN weight on Earth. You need factor 1.5 thrust/weight off the launch pad to get decent kinematics in accelerating flight. Thus the thrust requirement to take off for orbit would be 20.89 MN.

Even if all 6 Raptors (all the room they got) were sea level Raptors, at 2 MN max thrust per Raptor, that's only 12 MN thrust, Can't even overcome the weight (need 7 Raptors for that), much less accelerate adequately. It would take 10 or 11 Raptors in the base of Starship to be an SSTO, and even then the mass ratio comes up short to reach orbit.

I'd hazard the guess that SN-9 will try to reach the 60,000+ foot altitude that SN-8 was originally supposed to reach, and also try to successfully touch back down. They got the rest right with SN-8, excepting the low fuel header tank pressure that crippled how much thrust they could make. That's why it crashed.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2020-12-29 13:42:17)

kbd512 · 2020-12-29 18:09:05

If the upper stage was LOX/LH2 fueled and used RS-25s, Starship would have even better payload performance as the second stage of a Raptor-powered booster. That'd probably require both SpaceX and NASA to get over their NIH syndrome.

tahanson43206 · 2020-12-30 14:36:50

The story at the link below is really surprising (to me for sure) even though it is Elon Musk and I should know by now to expect the unexpected.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … d=msedgdhp

The Heavy Starship first stage will have NO landing legs!

One hour turnaround !!!

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-12-30 15:29:39

It will attempt to 'catch' the heavy booster, which is currently in development, using the launch tower arm used to stabilize the vehicle during its pre-takeoff preparations.
The Super Heavy launch process will still involve use of its engines to control the velocity of its descent, but it will involve using the grid fins that are included on its main body to help control its orientation during flight to 'catch' the booster – essentially hooking it using the launch tower arm before it touches the ground at all.

Well to accomplish the task the flight path needs to be very simular to the Falcon 9 where it can land on the pad surface but its going to come with the same first stage penalty of needing about 1/4 of the tank to pull off a much slower landing maneuver.

this one is the heavy

notice both do not land on the launching pad but onto an alternative location nearby.

Much like the launch the engines will need to be in a full firing mode to hold its balance once its in contact to the pad while the arms move to control the vehicle being upright. Once in contact with the latch to hold the vehicle in place then the engines can be shut off...

That time period of sitting waiting for the arms to move and latch will or will not make of break the landing as thats going to need fuel and power to sustain it to that point.

tahanson43206 · 2020-12-30 18:30:44

For SpaceNut re #886

Thank you for the helpful images of flights (with landing) by Falcon 9 and Falcon 9 Heavy.

A diagram for Starship first stage would show the vehicle returning to the launch tower.

Your point about timing of events at landing is surely going to be the subject of countless hours of intense study and discussion in SpaceX Engineering.

My guess is that the engineers will try to insure a simultaneous extension of the support arms to exactly match the arriving vehicle so there is no waiting or hovering at all. With modern computer control I would expect the design team to come up with plans for how that might be done. It's the ** engineering ** of those systems that will prove the mettle of the SpaceX team. For one thing, wind may well be present, so the design needs to insure the ability to adjust the empty tank's position in real time as it descends, to compensate for forces that will surely be present to interfere with the ideal path.

My guess is that we will see multiple gantries at the SpaceX Starship spaceport, so that returning vehicles can dock themselves to a clean gantry. The one they just left will probably need some attention.

That one hour turnaround goal seems ambitious to me.

(th)

Oldfart1939 · 2021-01-22 10:43:50

The latest from SpaceX via the Internet sites affiliated with Boca Chica Maria have reported that SN 9 had a static fire test after replacement of at least one of the Raptor engines after the trifecta last week. We may be seeing a flight of SN 9 in the near or not so distant future.

SpaceNut · 2021-01-22 17:22:37

I hear reference that sn 10 is also getting primed for a dual launch...

SpaceNut · 2021-01-28 20:07:38

Turns out not yet but its was announced that it could The latest SpaceX Starship prototype SN9 could finally get off the ground Thursday from Elon Musk's rocket development facility on the Texas Gulf coast. BB1bN337.img?h=451&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

we could have watched it live https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5kVZlnHZ3o&feature=youtu.be

We are still waiting Elon Musk blames the FAA.

Federal Aviation Administration, which licenses space launches and is charged with protecting people and property on the ground. “Unlike its aircraft division, which is fine, the FAA space division has a fundamentally broken regulatory structure,” he wrote. “Their rules are meant for a handful of expendable launches per year from a few government facilities. Under those rules, humanity will never get to Mars.”

SpaceNut · 2021-01-29 19:20:55

A beautiful sight to see SpaceX has two Starship prototypes on the pad at the same time BB1ddIxc.img?h=502&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

The shiny, finned SpaceX rockets — Starship SN9 and SN10 prototypes — actually exist and met at the pad for the first time Friday (Jan. 29) at the company's South Texas facility near Boca Chica Village. The SN10 vehicle, SpaceX's latest in a line of new reusable Starship prototypes, rolled out to the pad as its SN9 counterpart awaits its own test flight, which could launch as soon as Monday (Feb. 1).

Video cameras from the tourist site Spadre.com

SN9 and Sn10 are each powered by three of SpaceX's Raptor engines and designed to fly on suborbital test flights up to 6.2 miles (10 kilometers)
SpaceX launched the Starship SN8 prototype, an earlier version of the vehicle, on a similar test flight on Dec. 9. That flight reached an altitude of about 7.8 miles (12.5 km) and performed two harrowing flips to return to Earth for a landing attempt. It failed to stick the touchdown and exploded on impact.

So a little less thrust to achieve distance will leave a bit more fuel for the landing....

SpaceNut · 2021-01-30 09:49:25

Not to stink up the large ship of RobertDycks topic which brought up passenger to mars layout...

SpaceX%2BStarship%2Bcutaway%2Bdiagram%2Bby%2BJulian%2BSchindler%2B-%2Bcloseup%2Bof%2Bcrew%2Bsection.jpg

What is missing from this is how many tankers for a trip of one ship to mars
416F4A2900000578-4608792-The_diagram_outlines_the_overall_system_The_rocket_booster_and_t-a-70_1497559412772.jpg

Here is a trip time to payload chart thou it came up with starship may not be for just that design.
SpaceX%2BMars%2BColonial%2BTransporter%2Bschematic%2B09%2B-%2BShip%2Bcapacity.jpg

louis · 2021-01-30 11:46:20

Cant get over how 1950s retro they look! Just like in all those clunky sci-fi movies!

SpaceNut wrote:

A beautiful sight to see SpaceX has two Starship prototypes on the pad at the same timehttps://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB1ddIxc.img?h=502&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

The shiny, finned SpaceX rockets — Starship SN9 and SN10 prototypes — actually exist and met at the pad for the first time Friday (Jan. 29) at the company's South Texas facility near Boca Chica Village. The SN10 vehicle, SpaceX's latest in a line of new reusable Starship prototypes, rolled out to the pad as its SN9 counterpart awaits its own test flight, which could launch as soon as Monday (Feb. 1).
Video cameras from the tourist site Spadre.com
SN9 and Sn10 are each powered by three of SpaceX's Raptor engines and designed to fly on suborbital test flights up to 6.2 miles (10 kilometers)
SpaceX launched the Starship SN8 prototype, an earlier version of the vehicle, on a similar test flight on Dec. 9. That flight reached an altitude of about 7.8 miles (12.5 km) and performed two harrowing flips to return to Earth for a landing attempt. It failed to stick the touchdown and exploded on impact.
So a little less thrust to achieve distance will leave a bit more fuel for the landing....

SpaceNut · 2021-01-30 13:56:10

We now know what the hold up is...
The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is probing the SpaceX' s first high-altitude test flight of its Starship rocket, which exploded while landing in December. According to the FAA, SpaceX has violated the terms of its Federal Aviation Administration test license

well I could see a problem if there were any one hurt but in this case its just machines and equipment....

SpaceX violated its launch license in explosive Starship test
well thats what happens when there is a failure....

BB1de2HD.img?h=489&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

Ii see this as normal testing for the chances that a ship did not land quite they way in which its intended....It gave a means to investigate blast radius with what they know about how much fuel they still had onboard the ship as it lands.

louis · 2021-01-30 20:02:35

Expect much more of this under a Biden administration.

First thing Musk needs to do is start producing the methane from water and air using solar energy, so he can legitimately claim this is a green energy vehicle. He then needs to slap a great big "green energy powered" sticker on the side of Starship. He then needs to out out loads of ads explaining how many green jobs his project has created . It's called politics!

SpaceNut wrote:

We now know what the hold up is...
The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is probing the SpaceX' s first high-altitude test flight of its Starship rocket, which exploded while landing in December. According to the FAA, SpaceX has violated the terms of its Federal Aviation Administration test license
well I could see a problem if there were any one hurt but in this case its just machines and equipment....
SpaceX violated its launch license in explosive Starship test
well thats what happens when there is a failure....
https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/ten … 60&o=f&l=f
Ii see this as normal testing for the chances that a ship did not land quite they way in which its intended....It gave a means to investigate blast radius with what they know about how much fuel they still had onboard the ship as it lands.

SpaceNut · 2021-01-30 20:16:56

Well is why he is drilling for natural gas to be used for the ships rather than buying it....
If that ship had humans in it to which that is the intent then we would never see another flight at all until its fully reviewed and then some...

Oldfart1939 · 2021-02-01 10:49:21

We're all waiting for the next test flight of SN 9, and also of SN 10. The FAA has not issued licenses for either flights so far.
I was watching the Angry Astronaut discuss the reasons for the current delays. There is a highly implausible claim that a piece of SN 8 was blown some 14 miles and landed in Mexico. A piece of paneling or part of one of the rings, as it was described. I'm sure GW will share my skepticism, as something that non-aerodynamic won't fly very far, regardless of the explosive force involved. This sounds (and smells like) political interference. I call bull excrement.

louis · 2021-02-01 13:25:57

Exactly. Far Left Democrats have always hated the space programme. They are calling ths shots in the Democratic Party now. This will only get worse, especially once Kamala Harris becomes President, in about 8 months' time.

I also expect another front to be opened up on "planetary protection" - something the UN is big on. This represents a direct threat to Mars colonisation and is likely to be backed by the Biden adminsitration, though maybe not in an open way.

Oldfart1939 wrote:

We're all waiting for the next test flight of SN 9, and also of SN 10. The FAA has not issued licenses for either flights so far.
I was watching the Angry Astronaut discuss the reasons for the current delays. There is a highly implausible claim that a piece of SN 8 was blown some 14 miles and landed in Mexico. A piece of paneling or part of one of the rings, as it was described. I'm sure GW will share my skepticism, as something that non-aerodynamic won't fly very far, regardless of the explosive force involved. This sounds (and smells like) political interference. I call bull excrement.

SpaceNut · 2021-02-01 17:57:43

Louis the democrats were not in power when the crash happened and the laws for the faa have not been changed in any way since Biden took office in any way shape of form.
The FAA is there to do a job and circumventing what they need to do risks all when it comes to using Starship ever...

I think the current incantation is a design which is intended for the lunar landings at this point and not Mars based on no legs to keep it from tipping over.

SpaceNut · 2021-02-02 10:10:52

SpaceX may fly a new Starship rocket this week, after Elon Musk blasted the FAA for canceling a prior attempt

SpaceX could fly a new prototype of its Starship rocket ship six miles above south Texas this week, according to government notices.
16-story rocket soaring to 10 kilometers (6.2 miles), belly-flopping toward the ground, reigniting its engines, and turning upright just before touching down on a landing pad.

Seems like the altitude is for a redo test to see what?

From the video's the engine shutdown is not gentle enough as the bells are seen bouncing off from each other, most likely damage was done to them?

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#876 2020-12-24 18:27:00

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#877 2020-12-25 03:03:40

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#885 2020-12-30 14:36:50

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#886 2020-12-30 15:29:39

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#888 2021-01-22 10:43:50

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#893 2021-01-30 11:46:20

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#895 2021-01-30 20:02:35

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