Invention by New Mars Forum Members

tahanson43206 · 2020-07-23 07:39:11

This topic is offered for New Mars members who would like to record their thought process as they imagine, design and show with drawings and perhaps even animations, various systems which might be useful on Mars. The work here can be referenced or reproduced in specific topics elsewhere.

A secondary but important purpose of this new topic is to allow members to imagine, describe, design and show systems that would be useful on both Mars and Earth. That is the case with the opening item I'll propose in Post #1

My thought at the opening of this topic is to serve as curator, not to judge any of the contributions, but instead to maintain an index in this opening post.

For example:

Post#1: Mechanical linkage to Reproduce Action at a Distance

What I am looking for is original invention. In almost every case, it is very likely whatever a member "invents" will turn out to have existed previously. This process, of "invention" by a current generation member, followed by "discovery" of previous work is a constant throughout human history.

The "discovery" is likely to happen when Forum members study the "invention" and remember seeing exactly she same idea in a book, movie or post somewhere.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-07-23 07:53:02

Mechanical linkage to Reproduce Action at a Distance

Searchterm:MechanicalLinkage
Searchterm:FollowMotion
Searchterm:CopyMotion

The purpose of this "invention" is to allow a person (on Mars, on Earth or anywhere else) to perform a "professional" level hair cut on the back of the head, unassisted by another person immediately present.

A search (by Google) of available solutions to the problem of cutting one's own hair reveals that there have been a number of solutions developed, but NONE that I have seen so far get to the heart of the matter .... In no solution I have seen so far does a person have the vantage point that a real barber has while standing behind the customer with shears in one hand and comb in the other.

In thinking about an inexpensive, practical solution that would be achievable with existing materials and equipment on Earth in 2020, I came across a web site devoted to mechanical linkages. The site advertised having over 400 different kinds of mechanical linkage on display.

A mechanical linkage for the purpose intended here will not need all the possible degrees of freedom that a human being enjoys while attending to the duties of a barber, but it will need at least 6.

At this point, I will add a requirement for the system ... it needs to be able to carry a small web camera on the operating arm, so the "customer" can see the view from that arm on a computer monitor, television display, or perhaps a smartphone.

The degrees of freedom I am thinking are needed (at this point) include:

1) To-fro / Back-forth ... linear motion in the X direction, where X is perpendicular to the body of the customer
2) Up-down ... linear motion in the Z direction, where Z runs through the center of mass of the customer, from head to toe.
3) Rotary motion in the Z plane (this is needed to move the clippers under hair to be cut)
4) Rotary motion in the Y plane (this is needed to adapt the orientation of the clippers to the shape of the head.

I am assuming for the purpose of opening this post, that the customer can supply movement in the Y direction.

The customer can also provide some movement in X and some rotary motion around the Z axis.

Note: A robot along the lines of Robonaut (R2) in use on the ISS (built by GM for NASA) could perform the tasks under human control (teleoperation) but my observation of movies of performance of the machine tell me that is is excruciatingly slow compared to the speed of a simple mechanical linkage.

Edit#1: Here is a link to an article about a patent (dated 2011) for an automated hair cutting system.

https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2013096572A1/en

Edit#1: 2020/07/24 ... Machines that have some of the degrees of freedom needed for this application include the radial saw:

It includes Z and rotation about Z, X and rotation about X, and Y rotation at the working end in some versions.

A mechanical linkage with useful capabilities for this application is the expanding fence.

KB7211H.tif&sink=format[jpg],quality[70]

The image above is a start. I'll try to find one that illustrates the principle in use as an extension support for an appliance.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-07-24 04:44:04)

SpaceNut · 2020-12-16 11:17:45

Bump

Controlled scissor arms are a way to reduce direct risk to hand tools where the operator could get caught up in it. While its bad enough on a user that is inside of a habitat it could be deadly for one using such a tool outside in a mars space suit...
Of course we will not be able to mitigate all risks but we can do what is plausible....

tahanson43206 · 2021-11-07 12:22:40

Not much has happened in this topic since the end of 2020, but Clinician_Antilles has indicated an interesting in adding "Inventions wanted for medical care" to the topic, so I decided to bring it back into view.

Here is an update on the self-barbering initiative:

Is your research department working on self-service barber chairs, by any chance? I've building a prototype of one, but realized I may be reinventing the wheel. The prototype has a desk in front for a laptop, and it has a computer controlled sheers and video viewer in back.
I figure an outfit like this could allow return to the long-gone days of $5.00 haircuts, if the public can be persuaded to learn how to cut their own hair.
Thanks for considering this inquiry!
(th)
tahanson43206

The above was submitted to the Contact form of a large manufacturer of barber chairs.

I note it has an office in Texas, with headquarters in Georgia.

Both are entrepreneurial states.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-11-11 11:23:15

Gravity energy storage has been discussed at some length earlier in the forum archive.

I'd like to (try to) renew the discussion with a challenge to our members gifted with numbers skills, to work out the specifications for a vertical shaft gravity energy storage facility for installation on the property of private home owners.

I would like the system (shaft/weight/generator-motor/cable) to be able to supply 2 Kw for 24 hours.

The model I have in mind is the Kohler/Generac systems I see in stalled in the neighborhood. These are fitted with automatic cutover junction boxes that interface the generator with the home and with the local utility service.

The neighborhood systems (that I know about) all use natural gas as the energy storage medium, since natural gas is abundant locally.

A gravity storage system would be independent of fossil fuel while in operation, but ( I expect ) it would be recharged using fossil fuel.

Here is some data from the Internet (courtesy of Google) that sets the parameters for the specification I am hoping will come out of this initiative.

https://www.inchcalculator.com/kwh-to-kw-calculator/

Home Electrical Calculators Electrical Conversion
Kilowatt-Hours (kWh) to Kilowatts (kW) Conversion Calculator
Kilowatt-Hours (kWh) to Kilowatts (kW) Conversion Calculator
Convert kilowatt-hours to power in kilowatts by entering the energy (in kWh) and time (in hours) below.
Energy: 50,000 kWh
Time: 24 hours
convert kW to kWh
Kilowatts Results:
2,083.3 kW
Recommended Electrical Tools:
Multimeter

The requested system would hold more than 50,000 kwh, due to expected playback efficiency (less that 100% due to losses)

While the energy is stored, due to the nature of gravity (ie, reliable) there would be no losses.

There would also be no risk of fire or explosion due to stored chemical energy.

The system would be immune to weather disturbances, since the entire installation would be housed in a weather sturdy dome/shelter.

Installation would be more expensive than the Generac/Kohler model, but maintenance expenses would be modest, since electronic control subsystems need to be exercised weekly. There would be a battery to sustain the system when power is lost, so that would need to be replaced every four years or so.

There would be no oil change or spark plug replacement required, although the bearings in the shaft would need periodic checking.

It should be possible to build a rewarding and near-permanent business on this concept. The existing Generac/Kohler systems I see locally are all supported by long term companies who provide annual or as-needed service.

Update: I asked Google if there are any companies already providing gravity energy storage (other than water systems).

https://gravitricity.com/

This company appears to have a working above-ground demo unit, and appears to be studying use of a coal mine for below ground storage.

The following was submitted to the Contact Form:

Does your company have a product for home power backup?
I'm thinking of Generac and Kohler as examples.
These systems depend upon natural gas (or propane) to provide emergency power backup.
They include electronic and electrical subsystems to interface between utility power and the home or small business.
Storage I have in mind would be on the order of 50,000 kwh, with the ability to supply up to 2 Kw for 24 hours if necessary.
The installation would be on the property of the home owner, and would be entirely below ground except for a small hut/dome/covering on the surface.
Both Generac and Kohler would be likely partners in the US.
If you are interested in interacting with a small group of (reasonably) knowledgeable folks, you are welcome to apply for a membership in the NewMars.com/forums.
I am a moderator there, and provide membership admission services at newmarsmember@gmail.com.
We have members in the UK and the US, Canada and Mexico, as well as Italy and (probably) other locations.
(th)

(th)

Calliban · 2021-11-11 13:50:58

2kW for 24hours is 48kWh = 172.8MJ. 1kg raised 1m = 10J. Let's us assume a 3m raise. That's 30J/kg. Concrete bound granite rock has a density about 3000kg/m3. So 1m3 raised by 3m = 90KJ. The total volume of rock needed would be just shy of 2000m3, or a cube 12.4m aside. A lot larger than an average house and not very easy to achieve.

Gravity hydraulic accumulators like this are useful for the more modest task of power smoothing. Let's say you have a crane or other device that requires large amounts of power for very brief periods. A hydraulic accumulator is a good way of allowing a power source that meets average power requirements to cover very large but short term peaks in power demand. In a workshop, there may be pieces of equipment that draw several kW, but will only run for a few minutes, with a long time between cycles. The average power of the workshop is only a few hundred watts but peak power is in kW. The hydraulic accumulator allows a small power source providing a steady power output of a few hundred watts, to meet peak loads measured in kW. In the house, a washing machine may run for an hour consuming a couple of hundred watts to power the drum motor. But at the end, there are spin cycles lasting minutes, that will need power levels of a few kW. Hydraulic systems are very good at delivering modest amounts of total energy at very high power, for short periods.

Another way they might be useful: you have a baseload of a few hundred watts within a building and variable peaks in power above that. You power the building using a wind turbine, with a peak capacity about 5 times average load. Excess power is stored as heat used for water heating. When wind turbine power falls below base demand, a DG starts. However, it takes time for the DG to start and accelerate to load. The hydraulic reservoir can be used to reduce the slew rate of the wind turbine, allowing sufficient time for the diesel to come online.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-11-11 13:54:28)

tahanson43206 · 2021-11-11 15:13:50

For Calliban re #6 ... thank you for picking up on this new line of inquiry!

Thanks for working out the numbers for a 12.4 meter cube that would operate over a distance of 3 meters.

I am going to take the risk of (trying to) estimate what the numbers would be for a home owner. The footprint I have in mind is 3 meters square on the surface, and ideally no more that a meter above the surface (for maintenance/inspection etc). The size of the pipe in that case might reasonably be given as 1 meter in diameter (for ease of computation.

Starting with your numbers: 12.4 meters on a side for the mass and a distance of 3 meters elevation

The volume was computed as

2000m3,

A cylinder one meter in diameter with a volume of 2000 m3 would have a depth of:

Consulting Google:

Right cylinder
Solve for height
h≈2546.48
Diameter=1

Unit Conversion:
Using the formula
V=π(d2)2h
Solving for h h=Vπ(d2)2=2000π·(12)2≈2546.47909

That's interesting!

Now, if we stay with your estimate/scenario, the movement of that cylinder would be 3 meters over a 24 hour period.

Now I'm hitting a wall .... By extending the distance to be traveled by the cylinder, we could reduce the height of the cylinder.

There exists (I am reasonably confident) a sweet spot where the depth of the bore hole and the height of the cylinder are optimum.

I'm hoping you (or someone) might be willing to see if you can compute that sweet spot.

My (admittedly wild) guess is that calculus could solve that problem, although some dimly remembered algebra might be able to find the sweet spot.

What I do NOT know at this point is whether there is a sweet spot where the costs are competitive with the costs of a Generac or Kohler system of comparable power. In this case, the amount of natural gas or propane consumed would (presumably) be similar, since the weight has to be "charged" (at present) with fossil fuel.

The whole point of this exercise is to try to find a way to provide emergency power that ** does NOT ** depend upon utility supply of natural gas, or a propane tank topped off and waiting for an emergency that may never come.

Update 2021/11/12 ... another variable is mass of the weight to be suspended from a cable. The suggested weight would be made of concrete (probably with steel rods embedded for strength). However, a weight made entirely of iron would seem advantageous...

Asking Google:

About 23,900,000 results (0.65 seconds)
Cast iron is denser than most materials, thus cast metals for counterweights have in average three times more density than pure concrete. This enables iron to achieve the target weight in less space and volume compared to concrete which eliminates the cost for additional material.
Why choosing Cast Iron Counterweights over Concrete ...

I presume the height of a 1 meter diameter "rod" made or iron for the intended 24 hour backup scenario would be (about) 1/3 of that for concrete.

2546 / 3 > 845 meters (or so) that is still ridiculous.

However, if I recall correctly, the scenario in consideration is for a vertical movement of only 3 meters.

If the distance is increased from 3 meters to 30 then (perhaps?) the height of the piston could be reduced to 85 meters.

That is still ridiculous ... If the vertical drop is increased to 300 meters then the rod would (?guessing here) be only 8+ meters long.

The sweet spot I'm looking for would be less than 300 meters deep and a cylinder height that makes sense.

The pipe that holds the vertical system is a factor in the cost of the installation.

One benefit of investing in a descent of this magnitude is the opportunity to transition to heat exchange between the Earth mantle and the atmosphere.

This speculation needs clean up ....

***
There is a phenomenon I've seen demonstrated ... I don't know if it has any bearing on this discussion ...

A magnet dropped through a properly configured hollow will descend slowly due to hysteresis.

Whether that natural phenomenon can be harnessed for this situation is not at all clear (to me for sure).

(th)

Calliban · 2021-11-11 16:21:34

For the sort of long duration energy storage that you are interested in, a giant rock piston probably isn't a good option. The energy density is quite low and it would be a huge civil engineering project. Hydraulic accumulators are very useful for storing relatively small amounts of energy that is released at very high power levels. They tend to cover transients better than any competing system. That is their strength. But storing large volumes of energy for long periods, is a task for which they would appear to be unsuitable because of low inherent energy density. A 1kWh hydraulic energy store, could provide power levels of 1MW say, for a few seconds, or 60kW for 1 minute. There are places where that sort of application is valuable. If you have a machine that is performing mechanical operations like pressing, it needs huge amounts of power for <1 second at intervals of a few seconds. Hydraulic systems allow you to use a smaller steady power supply to support those sort of peak demands.

In a house scale system, a hydraulic reservoir would be useful in meeting brief peak power demands. If you are relying on intermittent generations to meet demand, a hydraulic reservoir can store enough energy to allow you time to start a diesel backup generator for example. If it takes a few minutes to do that, then you want an energy store than can cover that brief gap.

A similar idea is to use pumped water for energy storage, say mini pumped hydro. This could be done in areas where topography supports it. It is easier in many ways than raised solid weights, because you don't have to worry about leaky seals. You need an upper and lower reservoir. The lower reservoir could be excavated, whilst the upper can be constructed using compressed Earth berms and gravity stabilised rubble. Whilst expensive to produce initially, the basic structure and pipework would last for centuries. Specific energy is still relatively low. If you have a difference in head of 30m, say, then 1m3 of water will store 300KJ, or 0.08kWh. This sort of system is OK for handling short duration transients. You could not use it to store days worth of power. But let's say a village was powered by a micro-grid that relied on a wind turbine for primary power and an engine burning gasified biomass for backup. The hydraulic energy storage system would give you the time you needed to bring the biomass burner on load if the wind turbine dropped off load. It would store maybe an hours' worth of power to cover transients like this. That is probably the best way of thinking about hydraulic systems. They are there to match transients with different time constants.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-11-11 16:50:39)

Calliban · 2021-11-11 17:04:42

For raised weight hydraulic energy storage, which not replace the piston with wet sand in a pit, over a sheet of polythene at the bottom acting as a diaphragm? The water lubricates the sand, preventing it from setting and compacting. It would be important to choose sand with the right qualities: rounded grains that do not stick together under pressure. The pit would be tapered; slightly narrower at the bottom than at the top. This avoids problems with sand particles locking together and then suddenly displacing during charging, which would burst the diaphragm.

I don't know how well this would work. I suspect that if it was left static for too long, the sand would compact under its own weight and lose its fluid property. But maybe with large enough and sufficiently rounded grains, it would work. Worth investigating perhaps. Maybe gravel or hard-core could do the same thing? Concrete spheres perhaps?

Last edited by Calliban (2021-11-11 17:08:25)

RobertDyck · 2021-11-12 08:38:21

I'm not sure which thread this should be posted on. My idea is to apply space technology for use in hospitals today. Hospitals are still putting COVID patients on ventilators. Front-line medical doctors have said that as long as a patient is able to draw breath, a ventilator has absolutely no beneficial effect, and does cause damage. So stop doing it! A ventilator forces air into the patient's lungs, that's all. But COVID-19 does not harm the muscles of the chest or diaphragm, but does damage lung tissue. It doesn't matter if the patient's own muscles draw air into his/her lungs or a mechanical ventilator, it's still just air. And damaged lung tissue will still not be able to extract oxygen from that air. What the patient needs is an oxygen mask. A couple medications for high altitude sickness have proven effective.

My idea is an oxygen mask. News reported one of Canada's northern territories was running short of oxygen. Spacesuits use a CO2 sorbent. They used to use lithium hydroxide, but an upgrade for ISS uses silver oxide instead. Lithium hydroxide cannot be reused, silver oxide is heavier but the CO2 can be baked out. So the device for hospitals would have 2 silver oxide canisters. While one is used for the patient, the other is baked out. The CO2 is simply patient exhaled breath, so can be released to the hospital room. Furthermore, any rebreather requires a counter-lung. That means a bag to exhale into. This shouldn't just be a bag attached to the mask. I'm suggesting valves so exhaled breath goes to the bag, then air directed from bag to the silver-oxide canister, then back to the mask. One way valves to ensure breathing air goes in a circle, so air always goes through the sorbent canister. This would greatly reduce amount of oxygen required. And of course the mask must be closed, like the mask for a fighter jet pilot. Not open like one I've seen used in a hospital. The open mask basically functions the same as a nasal cannula.

The device would have valves to direct air to one or the other sorbent canister. It could be energy efficient by using a microwave oven, but that means fabricating the container for the canister to be a microwave oven. An automatic system would switch air to one canister or the other. The other canister must be cooled down to room temperature before it can be used. If a toaster oven is used, the silver oxide can be either sheets or granules. If a microwave oven is used, the silver oxide must be granules. A microwave uses less electricity, and the canister won't get as hot so will take less time to cool down.

This system will dramatically reduce oxygen consumed, because it doesn't leak oxygen into the air.

tahanson43206 · 2021-11-12 09:35:23

For RobertDyck re #10

Searchterm:Invention oxygen recovery in hospital using space oxygen recovery techniques

My understanding is that oxygen is preferred but it is in short supply. A ventilator is a mechanical system to try to put more oxygen into the vicinity of lung cells that are not already compromised by Covid.

A ventilator saves money by pulling oxygen from the ambient air.

Your system (as I understand it) would concentrate oxygen so that more is able to reach still functioning lung cells at the same air pressure.

You are surely aware that the ideal solution is to pass the patient's blood through a substitute lung while the original is compromised. However, I understand that this procedure is ** very ** expensive and has plenty of risks of its own. It is comparable to substituting a mechanical device for a kidney or a heart.

I'm not clear from your description if your invention would concentrate oxygen so that the required amount reaches the diminished number of patient lung cells that must deliver the needed oxygen to the blood stream.

One aspect of the design of an air filtration/processing system is that the air exhaled by the patient is loaded with Covid virus. I'm not sure what is the best way to deal with that situation.

***
I get the impression (I at least) do not fully understand the problem the doctors are trying to solve...

Common question
When do patients need ventilators to help treat COVID-19?
For the most serious COVID-19 cases in which patients are not getting enough oxygen, doctors may use ventilators to help a person breathe. Patients are sedated, and a tube inserted into their trachea is then connected to a machine that pumps oxygen into their lungs.Jun 18, 2020
Surviving COVID-19 and a ventilator: One patient's story
https://www.uchicagomedicine.org › forefront › surviving...
For informational purposes only. Consult your local medical authority for health advice

This citation (for what it's worth) seems (to me at least) to imply that the patient is NOT able to pull enough oxygen from the air to stay alive.

What is NOT clear from the citation is whether the problem is that the patient is not able to obtain enough oxygen even if it is supplied with a mask.

The citation may be mixing two different scenarios in a single brief summary.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-11-12 09:55:02

Misnomer on ventilator purpose as its use is increased oxygenation of the blood stream as to why its employed.
A last ditch effort to save the patient that is breathing but whose blood is becoming toxic due co2 build up.
Most are given nasal oxygen fist until sats stabilize but another device to use is the cpap machines as to limit bottled pure o2 use by drawing it from the air.

RobertDyck · 2021-11-12 11:50:25

Both of you have demonstrated the misunderstanding that some junior clinicians have. They also think a ventilator does that, but it doesn't. A ventilator only forces air into lungs, not oxygen. Senior doctors know that. It doesn't matter what the blood oxygen level is, forcing air will not fix the problem. The patient needs oxygen.

What I described would provide 100% pure oxygen instead of air. On Earth air has 20.943% oxygen. So this provides oxygen to whatever lung tissue is left.

tahanson43206 · 2021-11-12 14:57:44

For RobertDyck .... The need for devices to help patients is present and urgent. If your device can help in the present global emergency, when traditional producers of oxygen are failing to meet the need, it would seem to be worth seeking a partner to help you carry the idea from swirling electrons to actual devices.

Do you want help in promoting your idea, with the hope of finding such a partner?

It ** sounds ** as though you are proposing a small oxygen generator that could be installed in the patient room, as an alternative to buying compressed tanks of oxygen from a far-away vendor and having it delivered by truck.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2021-11-12 15:36:08

Thanks Tom. I could use help. However, this isn't an oxygen generator, is uses a rebreather system similar to ISS to reduce oxygen consumption. Hmm, oxygen generator. That's separate but also a good idea.

RobertDyck · 2021-11-12 16:00:25

More math. COVID patients could require 1 to 4 litres oxygen per minute. 10 litres of medical oxygen mass 150 grams. A patient that only requires 1 l/min will consume 60/10*150 grams per hour, multiply by 24 hours per day, divide by 1,000 for kg. That's 21.6 kg per day. According to NASA an adult consumea 0.84 kg oxygen per day. The difference is oxygen exhaled by the patient, not absorbed by lungs. Or oxygen that isn't inhaled in the first place, just sprayed near the patient's nose to be wasted in the atmosphere. What I'm suggesting isn't just oxygen supplementation, the patient will breathe 100% pure oxygen at ambient pressure of the hospital room. Yet, oxygen isn't wasted, exhaled oxygen is retained to be inhaled again. The sorbent removes CO2, only that is released into the room.

Reference: https://www.indiatoday.in/coronavirus-o … 2021-05-03

RobertDyck · 2021-11-12 16:01:15

Ps. There are oxygen concentrators. They're in very great demand.

SpaceNut · 2021-11-12 16:07:05

RobertDyck, is correct
Is CPAP considered oxygen?

No. CPAP machines use a continual stream of air – the same mixture of oxygen, nitrogen and other elements in the air we normally breathe – to keep your airways open while you sleep. During CPAP therapy, a special mask delivers the stream of air directly to your airway to help prevent the soft tissues at the back of your throat from collapsing.

So increased pressure.

If sat levels fall below 88%, you need supplemental oxygen. When you look more closely at a CPAP machine vs oxygen concentrator, you’ll find that they do very different things. The oxygen concentrator machine is a device that separates nitrogen and oxygen in the air through physical technology to obtain high-concentration oxygen. It is often used in hospitals, nursing homes, and other places.

What Is A Safe And Effective Range To Set Your Liters Per Minute Flow Range On Your Oxygen Concentrator & A Simple Way To Check Your Oxygen Levels?

It as well increases pressure as well as oxygen level.

SpaceNut · 2021-11-12 16:10:36

Some hospital did experiment with covid oxygen rooms but it meant staff could not leave if no airlock.

RobertDyck · 2021-11-12 16:49:00

SpaceNut wrote:

Some hospital did experiment with covid oxygen rooms but it meant staff could not leave if no airlock.

My idea would have the patient wear an oxygen mask. Not a nasal cannula, which is just the plastic tube under your nose with a spigot that sprays oxygen up each nostril. And not one of those flimsy hospital oxygen masks with holes in the sides. I mean the same mask as a jet fighter pilot. That means two hoses, one for oxygen you inhale, the other for air you exhale. With a one-way valve connecting each hose to the mask. It may be more awkward than a nasal cannula, but it's a hell of a lot better than intubation. That last word means a breathing tube down your throat. That's how a ventilator is connected to a patient.

Besides, the patient can have fun with this. Wear the same mask that Tom Cruise wore when flying an F-14 Tomcat fighter jet in the movie Topgun. Yea, he didn't really fly, he was an actor, but still. And the device the hoses are connected to is based on ISS technology. Cool! No?

Ps. No oxygen released to the room, so hospital staff can come and go like any other hospital room.

SpaceNut · 2021-11-12 17:19:11

Cpap masks are not all the same but here is a couple that are similar to what you are thinking.

Add color to the plastic to make a design of your choice.

SpaceNut · 2021-11-13 20:45:38

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Invention by New Mars Forum Members

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