Dimple Greenhouses

Void · 2020-06-11 09:52:50

Think of the dome type as being upside down, perhaps in a natural crater.
I am interested in an upside down dome, but even more would prefer a linear dimple greenhouse, that only curves in one dimension.

I have typically not been that interested in glass greenhouses, but I do believe that the technology should be invented, and proven for Mars.

So for a linear version, I would expect its "Trench" to have a long edge towards the equator, and the other long edge towards a pole of the planet. The ends would point to east and west respectively.

There are reasons we don't so much want this for Earth, rain and snow among them. That is pretty much not a problem in the "Temperate" zones of Mars. Also, there is a problem of reduced sunlight, when the sun is low in the sky. That can be helped with a static vertical reflector on the poleward edge of the trench dimple house.

As I imagine it, the floor of the greenhouse would be of metal, perhaps stainless steel.

There are then several ways, to add structural strength to this arrangement.
1) Pile something like bricks to hold down the edges.
2) More useful, run cables inside of the enclosure where the cables connect the metal floor of the greenhouse, and the frames for the glass sections.

For a linear version, it will also be necessary to have special sealing methods for the ends of the trench dimple greenhouse. These could be of many inventions, so I will not get specific, only note that it would be necessary.

Unlike a dome where it seems to me the thing will constantly want to explode from the internal pressure, the dimple glaze is concave, so the pressure will be imposed against that shape which I believe is better at holding a compressive force than a dome.

The floor being also concave, would have imposed on it pressure as well, but in the opposite direction. Periodic tensile cables distributed well enough and in enough numbers, would hold the thing together as well.

This is a structure where I would say the most of it could be constructed on Earth, using the Earths labor pool. The whole thing(s) would be sort of like an erector set. While I understand that this is going to be expensive, the quality should be better than if manufactured on Mars, (In the settlement setup phase of time).

So, I am bringing this into the picture:
https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2017/12 … nd-beyond/

The dimple structure disassembled would need to be put up from the Earth and into the solar wind by some means, then it should be able to fly itself to Mars, using the propulsion method mentioned, with many solar panels.

Probably the method to enter the Martian Hill Sphere then is Ballistic Capture. Again.....Nobody here loves it though...Too bad
I think that most of you are in love with being risk taking "Rocket Jockeys".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_capture

So this then, gives Mars stranded Starships work to do, bringing down the dimple house assemblies, and the solar panels.

Because this may require more maintenance at Mars, I suggest that some kind of garage/silo method be used to have the ability to service the ships in a pressurized environment from time to time. Not for most of the landing through.

The garage/silo would have a lid with latches.

While I specify Earth for the dimple house parts, if any could be made on the Moon, then all the better. In time perhaps.

And the labor force on Mars will have plenty else to do to build the city(s).

So using Earth/Moon labor may in many cases be the way to accelerate the development of the settlements.

That's about it for now.

Except.....

The greenhouses might serve as radiators at night, should the community have access to stored hot water. The condensate then being of some use perhaps. Might make the plants too soggy though. That would need to be looked into.

Hot water could fairly easily be gotten from a solar power tower with heliostats, or a nuclear reactor.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-06-11 10:18:24)

tahanson43206 · 2020-06-11 10:22:07

For Void re this new topic

As usual, your imagination creates remarkable ideas. However, as you are limited by text it is sometimes difficult for your readers to understand your vision.

In other topics, I have made (somewhat painful) progress toward understanding how to create images and to store them online so they can be displayed here.

I have no idea of what equipment you might have available locally, but here are some ideas for you, if you are willing to draw a sketch by hand:

1) Draw sketch
2) Take smartphone picture
3) Upload image to imgur.com
4) Collect the link to the image provided by imgur.com, and post that in the forum
Please note that imgur.com conveniently provides the link packaged for use in forums. I just discovered this recently.

or...

1) Draw sketch
2) Scan the sketch using a scanner (you may have an inkjet printer with a built-in scanner)
3) Upload the image to imgur.com (and follow the steps given above)

or ...

1) Draw sketch
2) Take a picture of the sketch with an old-fashioned digital camera (such as the one I have)
3) Proceed as shown above

In your post in NewMars forum, add text to explain your sketch.

Or! If you have a computer of sufficient power, and if you have the patience to learn something new, you can most certainly create images using 3D design software.

I have experience with Blender, and am gaining experience with Fusion 360.

There are numerous other similar software products that are free and of varying ease-of-use and capability.

All the tools I'm familiar with (admittedly the list is short) have the ability to create images of your designs, which you can upload to imgur.com.

You can review examples in the Balloon Phobos topic: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 51#p168851

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-06-11 10:29:59)

Void · 2020-06-11 11:43:32

Thanks. I may look at it. Summertime though. I am not much artistically.

tahanson43206 · 2020-06-11 12:34:20

For Void re #3

Void, this is an environment where creative thinking is encouraged, and great artistic talent is not expected.

Please consider upgrading your response from "may" to "will look at it"

You're surely not going to like the images that people are generating from your words! The best defense against having your words misunderstood is to provide a sketch that makes crystal clear what you have in mind, even if it looks like chicken scratches.

Do you have ** any ** of the capabilities for creating images that I listed?

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-06-11 12:35:24)

tahanson43206 · 2020-06-11 18:01:31

For Void ... re topic ....

I ** think ** your idea is to place an inverted half cylinder over the trench where you are planning to set your green house.

That is an interesting idea. You made the point that pressure of gas in the greenhouse trench would push on the arch of the inverted greenhouse.

The walls of the arch of the inverted half cylinder would (presumably) be attached to the walls of the trench, so that the pressure of the gas under the surface of the half cylinder would be transferred to Mars.

It occurred to me that a half cylinder could be part of a full cylinder, which would lie horizontally over the trench you have dug.

The full cylinder could itself be filled with gas at sufficient pressure to sustain the desired shape.

I await your sketch of your design with great interest!

(th)

Void · 2020-06-11 18:06:42

I will try to get enthusiastic. My last part of my last job, I was the software guy for my department.

After it is a job, and then you retire, it is not something you really want to seek out, but I am trying to change my mind.

I will see if eventually, maybe. I have two houses to fix up at this time, so that is on my mind now.

Avoiding death as well.

SpaceNut · 2020-06-11 18:25:57

I think this is similar to how the trench would be shaped in the soil with some sort of containment for the growing area, The side away from the sun would be used to reflect the sun inside of the created chamber. The concave lenses shape aids in the directing the light internally.

Parabola%20Compound%202d48.onStand.jpg?itok=m8ymPhUg

The lenses would work in this manner for its shape for light control

tahanson43206 · 2020-06-11 18:40:13

For SpaceNut re two posts in Void's new topic ...

Because Void has (not yet) shown us what he has in mind, we are doing the best we can to guess.

I'm impressed by the images you found!

Here is an image I made to try to show Void how it can be done.

For Void ... I learned how to obtain the special format for the BBCODE destination ... After the picture you've loaded into imgur.com shows up in your personal gallery, you right click on it and imgur;com generates a set of alternative link formats.

The procedure I followed was:

1) Create sketch
2) Scan using Epson Stylus CX 7800
3) Write output file to USB stick (it's faster in my convoluted network)
4) Import file from USB stick to Internet capable system
5) Upload file to imgur.com and copy BBCODE link to clipboard.
6) Log into NewMars.com and create post. Paste BBCODE link.

The entire sequence might have taken 15 minutes.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-06-11 18:43:17)

tahanson43206 · 2020-06-12 04:51:06

For Void ... while we await your sketch of your proposal, here is another consideration ....

Your design requires a robust attachment of the inverted arch to the walls of the trench, so that the pressure under the arch is transferred to Mars, to prevent it from being lifted. The same robust attachment is needed for both the "traditional" arch roof, and the hybrid I have shown.

However, there ** is ** an alternative that eliminates the requirement to anchor the roof to the planet!

That is hinted at by the hybrid design in Post #8 ....

Make the material of the roof of transparent plastic, and build the greenhouse inside the tunnel of a cylindrical structure.

In that case, no anchor is needed, because the internal gas pressure will be distributed evenly around the cylinder, and the mass of the soil and other greenhouse components will anchor the structure from such minor wind events as Mars may offer.

In addition, to protect the plastic of the cylinder from UV and the risk of damage by flying pebbles, it would be possible to erect a non-load-bearing glass arch over the plastic cylinder.

Light entering the facility will be attenuated by the material chosen for the various kinds of arches, no matter which one is chosen.

(th)

louis · 2020-06-12 06:46:24

No expertise in this but I would have thought a full cylinder would work best otherwise you would get pressure on the "flat" part of the half cylinder - the part facing the open atmosphere.

Here' s a suggestion for Void re a drawing - if you have Word you should be able to use Insert-Shapes (or the line drawing function found there as well).

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Void ... re topic ....
I ** think ** your idea is to place an inverted half cylinder over the trench where you are planning to set your green house.
That is an interesting idea. You made the point that pressure of gas in the greenhouse trench would push on the arch of the inverted greenhouse.
The walls of the arch of the inverted half cylinder would (presumably) be attached to the walls of the trench, so that the pressure of the gas under the surface of the half cylinder would be transferred to Mars.
It occurred to me that a half cylinder could be part of a full cylinder, which would lie horizontally over the trench you have dug.
The full cylinder could itself be filled with gas at sufficient pressure to sustain the desired shape.
I await your sketch of your design with great interest!
(th)

Void · 2020-06-12 08:55:09

tahanson43206, Louis, and Spacenut,

Thanks for your attention.

Yes, I do have word, got it just before the pandemic. Have not used it yet, but I guess I should. I bet I have Excel as well. I should be able to do VBA programming. I was not so bad with Visual Basic and VBA. I will warm up slowly. There is a word for me "Sloth". I like retirement. But I guess I could use some mental stimulation to ward off senility.

I will have to enroll in imgur.com

-----

(th), in your post #8 where you show your present conception of "Voids" greenhouse, that is interesting, but not entirely complete. Yet.

I think that arrangement would be good for the gorge concept of Louis, where you might anchor the edges in a rock or concrete wall.

In fact I have thought so for a long time. If your trench were to be a circle with a giant plug or rock on the inside, then you would not have any ends to deal with as the glaze would present a bottom half of a toroid shape as the glassed or plastic glaze. This though would curve in two dimensions. You would have a "Running Ring" under the glass, where you could run in circles. I think that Louis might prefer it to be more irregular, so it could be modified in that way. And yes, the only benefit is a upside down Roman Arch, where the forces are buttressed against the rock walls.

-----

But a point missed so far, is that you could attach steel tensile cables from the glaze to the rock trench. I suppose turnbuckles used to tighten them up precisely to carry some of the load. The cables would be anchored into the rock of the trench. In this case however they could be a running hazard, unless done correctly. I imagine to get the tension correct on the cables, some kind of measuring method should be implemented. Don't quite have that yet, a method to measure the amount of tension on each cable.

-----

To get to what I was about in the start, replace the rock trench with a curved stainless steel plate, below the glaze wall. Perhaps just 8 feet. (For shame! Archaic American use feet)

Use Steel cables passing up and down from the glaze to the steel floor.

In other words, for your illustration of "VOIDS greenhouse", replace the rectangular trench with a sheet metal floor with a parallel curvature to the glazed curve. And you guessed right it might be useful to anchor the sides of the arch in some sort of ballast. This still leaves the need to join the edges and ends so that you are not venting to the ambient pressure of Mars. It can be done several ways I suppose, so I will not specify that.

I imagine that this could be done on a rather large scale. If it were linear, and not toroidal then it would run East <> West, most likely.

Now erect a reflecting wall on the poleward side. Just a reflector. Maybe just a frame and some reflective foil, if it can stand up to sand blasting by dust storms. Here again this is not likely to be a thing we would do on Earth due to winds. But on Mars, it should be easier to accomplish and maintain.

You will probably guess that dust removal from the concave glaze will be a necessary burden. Some kind of a removal device then needed.

To reduce that problem, perhaps a low wall around all parts, as I believe that that would block some of it.

Going for a walk.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-06-12 09:21:59)

jfenciso · 2020-12-02 10:33:53

I disagree with the use of transparent plastic film as roofings for the greenhouse. It is degradable than glass. Second, you should consider the environmental factors like radiation such as cosmic rays and gamma rays. These types of radiation could accelerate the degradation of materials. I suggest using roofing materials which less vulnerable to space radiation. It is ok to use a transparent plastic film if the greenhouse atmosphere was established already. A greenhouse atmosphere could help to protect us from space radiation.

For the design of Void, I agree. This could minimize the cost of walling construction and minimize the damage from dust storms or micrometeorite impacts.

jfenciso · 2020-12-02 10:40:37

SpaceNut wrote:

I think this is similar to how the trench would be shaped in the soil with some sort of containment for the growing area, The side away from the sun would be used to reflect the sun inside of the created chamber. The concave lenses shape aids in the directing the light internally.
https://www.homecsp.com/sites/default/f … k=m8ymPhUg

The lenses would work in this manner for its shape for light control
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.timetoast.c … ncave1.jpg

If you want to use sunlight as a lighting source for the greenhouse. I suggest using the design from the German Aerospace Center and the European Space Agency.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … use_Design

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#1 2020-06-11 09:52:50

Dimple Greenhouses

#2 2020-06-11 10:22:07

Re: Dimple Greenhouses

#3 2020-06-11 11:43:32

Re: Dimple Greenhouses

#4 2020-06-11 12:34:20

Re: Dimple Greenhouses

#5 2020-06-11 18:01:31

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#6 2020-06-11 18:06:42

Re: Dimple Greenhouses

#7 2020-06-11 18:25:57

Re: Dimple Greenhouses

#8 2020-06-11 18:40:13

Re: Dimple Greenhouses

#9 2020-06-12 04:51:06

Re: Dimple Greenhouses

#10 2020-06-12 06:46:24

Re: Dimple Greenhouses

#11 2020-06-12 08:55:09

Re: Dimple Greenhouses

#12 2020-12-02 10:33:53

Re: Dimple Greenhouses

#13 2020-12-02 10:40:37

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