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#1 2020-10-24 13:07:26

jakeypoos
Member
Registered: 2020-10-24
Posts: 8

Martian gravity is good for you

Hi, I'm new to the forum. I think for colonising Mars, Mars gravity is the biggest issue, and that Mars gravity is good for you, is a reoccurring thought of mine when ever recovery time is discussed in physiotherapy or weight training.

How many bed bound hospital patients on earth, could be walking around in Mars gravity, getting exercise and blood flowing to their injuries.

When we weight train, we stress the muscles in an exacting way and then rest them in an exacting way. The problem is, that any core muscles that are stressed or injured have to function in 1G all our waking hours and some, all the time, 24/7. On Mars the stress rest cycle can have head room thats 3 times larger, meaning quicker muscle gains and more severe injuries can be helped by the process.

With micro gravity you have way to much of a good thing.  Compared to micro gravity, Mars gravity isn't disorientating, we still know which is up and down, and so does our heart, stomach and ears. Gravity effected ageing is 3 times slower, as facial fat pads sag over time in 1G, and virtually no-one will drown when swimming, as most people will be positively buoyant.

Are there any plans for sending an automated mouse experiment to Mars, that the 1st human visitors can monitor and collect results. Which they could use to tailor their workouts, where they entertain the whole world by lifting truly massive rocks.

Any weight trainers, physicians or laypeople out there that concur with my intuitive thoughts? any articles or books that cover this?

Love to hear some thoughts.

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#2 2020-10-24 16:41:22

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 4,148

Re: Martian gravity is good for you

For jakeypoos re #1

This is an interesting new topic, and I hope it wins some interest.

As you look around the archive, you may find previous discussion along these lines.

Regarding the specific suggestion of gaining experience with small Earth creatures at Mars gravity ...

This is an area of research that could be carried out by Earth scientists using facilities located in Low Earth Orbit.

In fact, it is possible you may find discussion along those lines in the Large Ship topic by RobertDyck.

To the best of my knowledge, all research that has been done in LEO is using microgravity, since that is so readily available there.

If you would be interested in doing a bit of research to contribute to the forum archive, it may turn out that actual experiments have been performed in LEO, using centrifuges to impart a small simulated gravity.

(th)

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#3 2020-10-24 17:04:13

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 20,263

Re: Martian gravity is good for you

jakeypoos, welcome to newmars and you have proposed an interesting paradox as we have learned that continous micro gravity is harmful to man with the many astronauts that have spent more than a 6 month period on board the ISS.
It would be interesting once man does make it back to the moon this decade as to whether the long durations of less than 1G is the issue or that we do need more gravity to make the body heal.

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#4 2020-10-25 14:53:33

jakeypoos
Member
Registered: 2020-10-24
Posts: 8

Re: Martian gravity is good for you

Hi tohanson and SpaceNut, thanks for the welcome.

Because there’s so few ideas and little knowledge about this important subject, I’m scouting for both by posting about it on other specialist forums. Today I posted on the Physiotherapy reddit. The 1st few replies are a little succinct, but there are some longer replies with more enthusiastic interest.

https://www.reddit.com/r/physiotherapy/ … d_for_you/

Quite a good response. What I gained from posting there, apart from getting the subject out there is,

I think there’s a formula for optimum fitness that doesn’t work at all in micro gravity, who’s effects resemble being bed bound. But in the replies we have some anecdotal confirmation from physiotherapists, that Mars gravity may resemble hydro therapy, which means that quality recovery could be a tool to achieve optimum health there.

I think I may post about this next on a weight trainers, personal trainers forum and perhaps on a hydrotherapy forum, and leave the links here with any conclusions or ideas.

Last edited by jakeypoos (2020-10-25 15:00:01)

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#5 2020-10-26 07:37:55

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 4,148

Re: Martian gravity is good for you

For jakeypoos re #4

Would you be willing to share a little bit more about your goals?  It seems to me that you are interested in the physical well being of human beings, and that you are specifically interested in the well being of travelers on their way to Mars, and after settling there.

You could help us try to figure out how to help ** you ** (within the context of ** this ** forum) if you would add a bit more detail to your vision for the future in which you will play a role.

To give you an idea of what I have in mind (depending upon your reply) .... RobertDyck is hard at work designing a spacecraft that would carry passengers to Mars safely and in modest comfort, while providing Mars simulated gravity and Mars standard habitat atmosphere to breathe.

RobertDyck has so far made no claims of knowledge of how to give actual human beings a comfortable and rewarding experience in a confined space which may last as long as two years.

A person who is specialized in the well-being of passengers and crew would be a valuable member of the paid crew for such a vessel.

If you are such a person, it would be good for us to know of your ambitions. 

(th)

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#6 2020-10-26 11:06:35

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,878

Re: Martian gravity is good for you

Some interesting thoughts. As someone who has negative buoyancy , it's pleasant to think I would get that buoyancy boost on Mars (something on Earth I only experience in the highly salted Mediterranean)!

Sadly the issues relating to the heart might not be just a question of orientation. Essentially a healthy heart benefits from the 1G environment to maintain its muscle function.  Microgravity may be sub optimal also for our immune systems.  We don't really know yet. 

That said, space medicine is improving all the time.  Loss of bone and muscle in zero G even has been overcome through a combination of exercise,  technical innovation and supplements.

On Mars people could wear weighted suits and shoes to replicate 1G if that helps improve health outcomes.

I do wonder if with lower G on Mars whether you might be more likely to fall over. Walking is essentially controlled falling - we tip forward a little, which would cause us to fall if it was not for the fact our legs are able to prevent the fall carrying through. On Mars our walk might be subtly changed. We might need to tip forward more, or we might rely more on our legs
to propel us forward. 

The implications for sport would be intriguing.  Will we be able run faster?  I assume so. For a sport like basketball you might need to raise the hoops if people can jump higher. How high could a pole vaulter go on Mars?

jakeypoos wrote:

Hi, I'm new to the forum. I think for colonising Mars, Mars gravity is the biggest issue, and that Mars gravity is good for you, is a reoccurring thought of mine when ever recovery time is discussed in physiotherapy or weight training.

How many bed bound hospital patients on earth, could be walking around in Mars gravity, getting exercise and blood flowing to their injuries.

When we weight train, we stress the muscles in an exacting way and then rest them in an exacting way. The problem is, that any core muscles that are stressed or injured have to function in 1G all our waking hours and some, all the time, 24/7. On Mars the stress rest cycle can have head room thats 3 times larger, meaning quicker muscle gains and more severe injuries can be helped by the process.

With micro gravity you have way to much of a good thing.  Compared to micro gravity, Mars gravity isn't disorientating, we still know which is up and down, and so does our heart, stomach and ears. Gravity effected ageing is 3 times slower, as facial fat pads sag over time in 1G, and virtually no-one will drown when swimming, as most people will be positively buoyant.

Are there any plans for sending an automated mouse experiment to Mars, that the 1st human visitors can monitor and collect results. Which they could use to tailor their workouts, where they entertain the whole world by lifting truly massive rocks.

Any weight trainers, physicians or laypeople out there that concur with my intuitive thoughts? any articles or books that cover this?

Love to hear some thoughts.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#7 2020-10-26 13:26:30

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 4,148

Re: Martian gravity is good for you

For jakeypoos re "visit" by Louis ...

It might be fun for you to take a look at the beginning of all the many messages by Louis ...

He has contributed to (instigated) many interesting and information packed exchanges with other members by feigning disbelief about a great variety of subjects.

To "visit" Louis, tap the User Search, enter in Louis, and go to the beginning of the search result set.

When I performed the search just now, I found that Louis has contributed 5,876 posts.

(th)

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#8 2020-10-26 19:41:41

jakeypoos
Member
Registered: 2020-10-24
Posts: 8

Re: Martian gravity is good for you

tahanson43206 wrote:

For jakeypoos re #4

Would you be willing to share a little bit more about your goals?  It seems to me that you are interested in the physical well being of human beings, and that you are specifically interested in the well being of travelers on their way to Mars, and after settling there.

You could help us try to figure out how to help ** you ** (within the context of ** this ** forum) if you would add a bit more detail to your vision for the future in which you will play a role.

To give you an idea of what I have in mind (depending upon your reply) .... RobertDyck is hard at work designing a spacecraft that would carry passengers to Mars safely and in modest comfort, while providing Mars simulated gravity and Mars standard habitat atmosphere to breathe.

RobertDyck has so far made no claims of knowledge of how to give actual human beings a comfortable and rewarding experience in a confined space which may last as long as two years.

A person who is specialized in the well-being of passengers and crew would be a valuable member of the paid crew for such a vessel.

If you are such a person, it would be good for us to know of your ambitions. 

(th)

I’m very much into futurology and I’ve done various forms of art all my life, and so I just follow my curiosity in that spirit.

I’ll soon be finishing my current project, which is a virtual model of Bradford on Avon here  in Britain, as it was 1000 years ago, when an Anglo Saxon church that’s still standing there, was built. My virtual model is built in EPIC’s game engine, Unreal engine using LIDAR scans. I've taken virtual photos of the model and placed them along side comparison photos of Bradford on avon today, on their own website here

https://bradanfordabeafne.weebly.com/

As that has got nearer and nearer to completion, I seem to be pulled by my curiosity towards space settling and Mars.

I was effected by post viral fatigue for many years and run the risk of getting long COVID, so I’ve been shielding alone inside my house since  early March. This has been an ideal opportunity to experience the perpetual indoor experience that would be living on Mars, and my direct experience inspires some of my own thoughts.

So far my imagination sees a large subterranean settlement, filled with light, and ideally at a depth where the ambient temperature is 22 degrees C. Powered by solar, nuclear fusion, or an even deeper geothermal well.

This settlement, could be very comfortable and more visually beautiful than anything on earth. I suppose I can see a vision of how appealing life could be on Mars. I’ve been messing around with a few ideas in Unreal engine, and I’ll see where my curiosity takes me.

Right now, most people wouldn’t want to live on Mars. But if there’s info with a good degree of certainty, that Mars could be made into a fabulous place to live, and my strong hunch is it can, it would be very nice to help to tell the world about that.

Last edited by jakeypoos (2020-10-26 20:40:11)

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#9 2020-10-26 20:57:26

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 4,148

Re: Martian gravity is good for you

For jakeypoos re #8

Thank you for your helpful reply!  Louis lives in England, as does Terraformer.  Calliban lives up North.  There are several other regular forum contributors who call the UK home.  I find your project quite interesting, and I'm not even from England << grin >>.

Your vision will surely catch the attention of more than one member.

Are you at all interested in seeing formal work done to plan habitats on Mars.  There is a gold opportunity right now.

The Mars 2020 Convention took place a week or so ago, and the sessions are being edited for video.  One of the habitat competition videos is already available, and I'm sure the others will be available shortly.

It is impossible for anyone to read all the archive of this forum.  Still, there are sequences that might be worth some of your time.

To find out about the Mars 2020 videos, you are welcome to stop by the Mars 2020 topic, created by RobertDyck.

PS ... Your expectation of a temperature of 22 C at some depth below the surface of Mars is quite interesting. 

There is a probe currently on Mars whose science experiments include an attempt to measure temperature below the surface, but you probably know that the instrument failed to dig itself into the regolith.

To my knowledge, there is no information available about the temperature of any part of the interior of Mars, so if you have a source for your 22 C estimate, it would surely be of great interest to members here.

(th)

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#10 2020-10-27 07:03:38

jakeypoos
Member
Registered: 2020-10-24
Posts: 8

Re: Martian gravity is good for you

louis wrote:

Some interesting thoughts. As someone who has negative buoyancy , it's pleasant to think I would get that buoyancy boost on Mars (something on Earth I only experience in the highly salted Mediterranean)!

Sadly the issues relating to the heart might not be just a question of orientation. Essentially a healthy heart benefits from the 1G environment to maintain its muscle function.  Microgravity may be sub optimal also for our immune systems.  We don't really know yet. 

That said, space medicine is improving all the time.  Loss of bone and muscle in zero G even has been overcome through a combination of exercise,  technical innovation and supplements.

On Mars people could wear weighted suits and shoes to replicate 1G if that helps improve health outcomes.

I do wonder if with lower G on Mars whether you might be more likely to fall over. Walking is essentially controlled falling - we tip forward a little, which would cause us to fall if it was not for the fact our legs are able to prevent the fall carrying through. On Mars our walk might be subtly changed. We might need to tip forward more, or we might rely more on our legs
to propel us forward. 

The implications for sport would be intriguing.  Will we be able run faster?  I assume so. For a sport like basketball you might need to raise the hoops if people can jump higher. How high could a pole vaulter go on Mars?

Hi Louis
I think the bottom line is, if Mars gravity can’t be managed to be in some way good for us, then the surface will be short stay gravity theme parks and autonomous mines, servicing orbiting centrifugal habitats with 1G, linked to a space shipyard, and I think that will happen on the moon 1st, with it’s even lower escape velocity. On the moon we could fly like a bird at low speed through an air filled space wearing a winged suit. Answering the gravity health question is acute when someone is born on Mars, as they haven’t consented and an uncertain or poor outcome could be viewed as child abuse.


I think the heart muscle will weaken at less than 1G if continually at rest, but exercise can strengthen the heart muscle. If you have no intention of ever leaving Mars, would it matter that your heart muscle was weaker and your blood pressure was lower. We would eventually resemble an octopus in Micro G. But at Mars G the result seems intuitively like it has a chance of being sustainable. If you decide to maintain earth readiness with exercise, then should you have a heart attack, your damaged heart muscle should have a greater chance of recovery on Mars.

Autonomy of all life support systems is vital for long term habitation on Mars. If civilisations fall on earth, we can still breathe the air and drink the water and eat what we hunt. Earths life support is autonomous and independent of humans. In fact it works better without us smile

So in summary
- Can Mars gravity be good for us? Is the priority question that needs to be answered ASAP
- Internal spaces must be fabulous for people to want to occupy them all the time and live in space, or people born in space will, if they can, always leave for the wide open spaces of Earth.
- Mars life support must be independent of Earth supply ships 1st
- Then I think Mars life support must be autonomous and independent of humans.

It would be a nice goal for space habitation to be attractive enough to depopulate the earth a little, and give it a chance to recover.

Last edited by jakeypoos (2020-10-27 07:24:48)

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#11 2020-11-12 07:54:58

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 4,148

Re: Martian gravity is good for you

This post is for Terraformer, who "lives" in Dr. Dartnell's Knowledge forum as Cererean.

The theme of Dr. Dartnell's forum is perservation and recovery of knowledge.

His forum explicitly recognizes the opportunity humans have to reproduce accumulated knowledge on another world,

There is even a topic specifically about Mars.   An ID of Roger_Dymock offered an observation about the Dutch Mars One concept.

Roger_Dymock might be interested in contributing to this forum, if we were to extend an invitation.

There might be others in the member list at Dr. Dartnell's forum who would be helpful to this forum.

(th)

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#12 2020-11-12 20:36:50

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 20,263

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#13 2020-11-13 06:00:37

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 4,148

Re: Martian gravity is good for you

For SpaceNut .... thanks for the reminder of Mars One.

However, I ** really ** appreciated the Barefoot Strong Blog entry on gravity.

The blog entry caught my attention when it pointed out that working against gravity is helpful for good health, and specifically for encouraging the body to restore bone which would otherwise disappear from the skeleton as we age. 

I would assume (without much to go on) that a citizen on Mars would need to be even MORE active in daily living, in order to counter the effect of reduced gravity.   One of RobertDyck's Large Ship prototypes can be (and I hope ** will ** be) set into Low Earth Orbit so the effects of 1/3 G can be evaluated over a period of months and eventually years, before a large group of people heads to Mars.

This forum has the potential to become the source of a thought meme that can (and I hope will) lead to construction of a RobertDyck Large Ship test article in LEO.

(th)

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