Capitalism

tahanson43206 · 2020-11-11 09:05:34

This new topic in Martian Politics and Economy is starting out with a thoughtful analysis/comparison of the business models of Apple and Google.

Both companies have created wealth on a significant scale.

However, the two companies have pursued two divergent paths .... one has given investors control, and the other has retained founder control.

According to the author, it is not clear which model is better over the long run.

However, an understanding of capitalism, and specifically management of corporations to succeed in a capitalist system, would seem (to me at least) appropriate for those who will be building enterprise on Mars (or in the Solar System generally)

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/capi … google-way

The importance of these two models might soon escalate dramatically. There’s a real possibility that tax reform at the federal level will unlock the offshore cash that corporations have amassed, and the subsequent flood of money will have to be reallocated in the economy—somewhere, somehow.
Mihir A. Desai is a professor at Harvard Business School and Harvard Law School. He is the author of The Wisdom of Finance: Discovering Humanity in the World of Risk and Return.

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SpaceNut · 2020-11-11 09:48:35

Simular to the funding ideas of government versus cooperate in nature.
The idea of sharing profits not to just a board or the founders seems so alien to almost all that would like to see space for all.
It quickly gets a socialism labeling by some....but that is a different problem.

kbd512 · 2020-11-11 11:03:34

SpaceNut,

America has crony capitalism and welfare, neither of which greatly benefit the middle class workers who pay the largest percentage of their incomes into that system- because the unemployed and working poor pay little to nothing at all in most cases. By total dollar count, the wealthiest Americans pay the most, but neither the one-percenters nor the middle class sees much in the way of benefits from increased taxation. My income doesn't go up whenever Democrats want more of my tax dollars to pay for their latest wealth redistribution scheme. If it did, then I simply wouldn't care. We're clearly funneling money to a certain group of people, but by funding their "lifestyle choices", rather than encouraging them to seek gainful employment by demanding remuneration in the form of labor from those who can work, the net result is that we bring down the standard of living for everyone else to provide that funding. If Democrats or their socialists waistcoat riders ever fix that aspect of their zero-sum thinking, then we have something to discuss and work out. Until then, I'm never voting for anyone who supports policies that produce the end result of lowering the standard of living for more people. To me, it's that simple.

tahanson43206 · 2020-11-11 12:53:04

For kbd512 and SpaceNut ... thank you for giving this new topic a starting boost.

For future contributions, I'd like to invite a bit of discipline to stay on topic. This topic was opened with a comparison of two ways of applying capitalist principles in large (successful) corporations. The digression into other economic systems may be interesting and perhaps even exciting, but it does not fit with this topic.

It seems likely to me that capitalism will be a strong contender for expression on Mars, if the United States participates in settlement of the planet. If the United States is NOT present during early years, other economic systems will have a chance to establish themselves.

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kbd512 · 2020-11-11 13:08:23

tahanson43206,

The overriding principle that should be applied to the management of any company should be to perpetuate the company, because if it goes under then everyone working for the company, irrespective of what capacity they were employed by the company, loses their jobs and the overall economy of the nation and the world suffers the consequences of unemployment. Sometimes this will mean short-term gains are foregone in consideration of the long-term effects of short-term thinking. If I make my numbers for this quarter look great, but do it at the expense of the company's survival, then there may not be any "next quarter earnings", therefore whatever I was doing for short term gain was ultimately an egregiously bad idea.

What is ultimately "best"?:

Current quarter earnings of 10%, followed by losses for the next 5 or 6 quarters, or 1% growth every single quarter into perpetuity?

It doesn't take very long for that 1% growth to add up, but you have to think beyond the next quarter and hold the belief that there will always be another "tomorrow". Ultimately, predictability and stability is better than radical shifts in earnings. In other words, "gaming the system" is a bad idea if you care at all about your children and their children and the ultimate value of your investments. Unfortunately, this is not what we teach people pursuing business degrees in colleges or in investment / trading seminars. That's inexcusably short-sighted, IMO.

SpaceNut · 2020-11-11 14:02:59

Pro and Con of Individuals versus corporations ScreenShot2020-06-24at12.33.11PM-cffd253584a84fd89cead09a03f32839.png

Entrepreneurship is where the confusion starts as the self employed is the person creating the earnings while corporations employ to make earnings based on others. This is where goods make profits versus greed that under pays its people hit the road which breeds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_capitalism

tahanson43206 · 2020-11-25 10:31:48

Inasmuch as capitalism is in the running for implementation on Mars, challenges to the current (2020) version of the system are potentially of interest to future Mars settlers ...

The Yahoo feed probably knows my interests .... they tossed this item my way ...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-brain- … 40101.html

Left-wing critics are certainly correct that it was more difficult to form a corporation in the 18th and early 19th centuries, but returning to such a system would hardly be an improvement. One of the many things that we can be proud of in American history is the gradual move away from an economy in which citizens have to beg the government for preference and permission and toward a system in which citizens are generally allowed to conduct their peaceful business as they see fit. During the 19th century we shifted from a system under which the grant of a corporate charter was a one-off special favor, and adopted what was, in effect, a “shall issue” presumption that allowed people to form and operate corporations — as the legal phrasing goes — for “any legal purpose.” Turning the clock back would be social regress, not reform.

SpaceNut ... you may find this discussion worth study ...

I'd be interested in your evaluation of the concept presented...

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tahanson43206 · 2021-01-05 14:25:54

This topic is about capitalism ...

I've heard of "enlightened capitalism" ...

The announcement below contains a reference to the invention of "conscious capitalism"

And now a big surprise: Next week, WW0 will air an exclusive conversation between Robert Downey Jr. and Secretary John Kerry. They’ll be talking about Downey’s own vision for conscious capitalism and the chance for bold climate action in 2021. Stay tuned to be the first to watch two climate superheroes on a new mission.

While I doubt that the expression is intended to suggest Artificial Intelligence, the advance of computing technology in managing trading in markets may presage a time when AI entities run organizations.

In another topic today, a snippet was posted about advances in AI control of robot sorting machines in warehouses.

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tahanson43206 · 2021-06-24 11:39:12

Here is another look at capitalism ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Ghosh

I managed to lose the original citation in fooling around with the material with the intention of creating a posting.

Here is a link that seems to cover much of the material:
https://www.socialsciencespace.com/2014 … ant-ethic/

It is an extremely powerful analysis, which tells us a great deal about the 20th-century West and a set of Western ideas and priorities that the rest of the world has been increasingly happy to take up since 1945. It derives its power not simply from what it says, but because Weber sought to place understanding before judgment, and to see the world as a whole. If we wish to go beyond him, we must do the same.
Peter Ghosh is an associate professor of history and Jean Duffield fellow in modern history at St Anne’s College, University of Oxford. He is the author of Max Weber in Context: Essays in the History of German Ideas C. 1870-1930.

I count it a good day when I learn at least ** one ** thing, and here is a snapshot of insight into the origin of the concept of capitalism that I'd missed before now.

Professor Ghosh described my previous limited understanding of capitalism pretty well.

It's helpful to know that an alternative to the already-embedded belief is possible, although I suspect I'd have to re-read the article multiple times to have any effect at all on the stored neurons where impressions about capitalism are stored.

Edit later: An insight that seems to have stayed with me is that capitalism appears to have taken at least part of the place of religion in human society.

Certainly I get the impression there are those in the population who consume Capitalism with religious fervor.

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louis · 2021-06-24 16:49:07

A lot of things get mixed up in discussions of capitalism.

1. There is often an assumption that market economies are the same thing as capitalism. Not so, markets have been with us since the dawn of time. Even chimpanzees have some grasp of the idea of fair exchange and (experimentally) have engaged in market economies for barter or purchase of food. No Communist state has yet been able to abolish markets entirely despite desperately wanting to do so.

2. Money is sometimes identified with capitalism . Money is in fact a very old method of facilitating exchange that predates capitalism by tens of thousands of year. Again no Communist state has yet been able to abolish money.

3. Profit is identified with capitalism. But this is wrong in the sense that all organisations (charities, state owned enterprises, museums etc) have to have a surplus of income over expenditure or, ultimately, they go bust. Even if they are reliant on lending or subsidy, they still need lending/subsidy to create the reality of a surplus.

4. Exploitation of labour. Exploitation of labour is not unique to capitalism. It is a feature of feudalism and slavery for instance.

5. Profit used for private gain. A co-operative that distributes part of its surplus to its co-operative workers is doing the same. In the UK and probably most Western countries the main shareholders are in any case pension funds. So the private gain is being distributed far and wide.

6. It is often asserted (including by pro-capitalist authors) that capital is a store of value. This is complete nonsense. No one can "store" value in terms of money. We have seen too many instances of hyperinflation to know that there is no store of value. What a big bank balance means is in effect a big voucher that can be used as a call on current production. Of course people can make agreements about calls on future production, but there is never any guarantee the future production will be there or that your voucher will be valid in relation to it.

I think the defining feature of capitalism has been (a) the move from individual ownership to joint stock ownership, which the law eventually accepted as removing from the individual personal liabilty (hence the concept of "limited liability") - this was key to liberating investment, so people were free of ethical and legal responsibility for their investment (b) the detachment of investment decisions from what one might call the social nexus (as Marx pointed out), so that investment decisions are made purely on profit potential, not as part of a rich social network of relations (e.g. as we see in the feudal system, the Church or even the State itself) and (c) (partly because of (b) being a key feature) capitalism's fruitful relationship with new technology, beginning with steam, then the railways, then the automobile and so on through the decades.

Capitalism of course continues to evolve. In the 21st century we have seen a return to almost pre-industrial forms of investments where people with IT development skills have accumulated huge fortunes that enable them to operate independently of shareholders. This has allowed companies like Amazon to focus on almost 100% growth reinvestment rather than producing high dividends. Algorithms allow companies like Amazon to operate almost like the planned economies dreamed of by Marxists in the early 20th century but never before attainable because previously it was not possible to monitor every transaction and integrate it into an overarching program.

I have been thinking of starting a thread on the socio-economic foundations of a Mars colony.

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-25 05:13:36

For Louis re #10

Thank you for your substantial contribution to this topic!

I think the defining feature of capitalism has been (a) the move from individual ownership to joint stock ownership, which the law eventually accepted as removing from the individual personal liability (hence the concept of "limited liability") -

SearchTerm:liability as a key element of capitalism - invention of the stock company

That led to the notion of a corporation being a "person" and having "rights" in society. I think that notion has gone too far, but also note that governments have seen fit to exert sovereignty over corporations when their immoral behavior exceeds social bounds by a sufficient extent.

Right now, we see the European Union taking on US corporate giants without hesitation, and there very well may be examples of that going on in the US that I'm not aware of. At a local level, it ** is ** routine in the US for governments (towns, cities, counties) to block initiatives by corporations to build structures that don't meet local expectations.

Your example of Amazon approaching an ideal is interesting, and one I'll keep in mind as the future unfolds.

There is an active effort on the part of Amazon to replace humans-acting-like-robots with actual robots... We are all aware of the initiative to deliver packages by drone, or by robot delivery cart, but recently I read of the introduction of a small number of what sounded like human-equivalent robots in at least one Amazon warehouse.

In another forum (I've forgotten which one) I ran across a report (possibly apocryphal) that Jeff Bezos has a mental image of humans as lazy. More clear is the claim that the Amazon work structure is deliberately designed to discourage any hope of progress from the bottom tier to higher levels in the organization. That policy, if true, is quite likely related to reported high levels of turnover at the bottom levels where the bulk of the work gets done.

A high turnover at the bottom tier would be a prerequisite for smooth introduction of robots as fast as they become capable of taking on human functions.

Jeff Bezos himself is concentrating on his space venture. Amazon is running on it's own now, with a culture he created driving the actions of the humans who remain in leadership positions. Ultimately it would not surprise me at all for a Google-like AI to come into being as the overall coordinator of the flow of work of myriads of robots, and the ideal corporation will be present.

It will be fun to see how governments deal with ** that ** when it happens!

(th)

louis · 2021-06-25 17:54:23

Most of these big tech billionaires speak liberty and practise oppression.

I'd say Musk is more of an exception to the rule...he just seems to me to be much more a member of the human race than most other billionaires. He seems to recognise his employees as humans first, units of production second.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Louis re #10
Thank you for your substantial contribution to this topic!
I think the defining feature of capitalism has been (a) the move from individual ownership to joint stock ownership, which the law eventually accepted as removing from the individual personal liability (hence the concept of "limited liability") -
SearchTerm:liability as a key element of capitalism - invention of the stock company
That led to the notion of a corporation being a "person" and having "rights" in society. I think that notion has gone too far, but also note that governments have seen fit to exert sovereignty over corporations when their immoral behavior exceeds social bounds by a sufficient extent.
Right now, we see the European Union taking on US corporate giants without hesitation, and there very well may be examples of that going on in the US that I'm not aware of. At a local level, it ** is ** routine in the US for governments (towns, cities, counties) to block initiatives by corporations to build structures that don't meet local expectations.
Your example of Amazon approaching an ideal is interesting, and one I'll keep in mind as the future unfolds.
There is an active effort on the part of Amazon to replace humans-acting-like-robots with actual robots... We are all aware of the initiative to deliver packages by drone, or by robot delivery cart, but recently I read of the introduction of a small number of what sounded like human-equivalent robots in at least one Amazon warehouse.
In another forum (I've forgotten which one) I ran across a report (possibly apocryphal) that Jeff Bezos has a mental image of humans as lazy. More clear is the claim that the Amazon work structure is deliberately designed to discourage any hope of progress from the bottom tier to higher levels in the organization. That policy, if true, is quite likely related to reported high levels of turnover at the bottom levels where the bulk of the work gets done.
A high turnover at the bottom tier would be a prerequisite for smooth introduction of robots as fast as they become capable of taking on human functions.
Jeff Bezos himself is concentrating on his space venture. Amazon is running on it's own now, with a culture he created driving the actions of the humans who remain in leadership positions. Ultimately it would not surprise me at all for a Google-like AI to come into being as the overall coordinator of the flow of work of myriads of robots, and the ideal corporation will be present.
It will be fun to see how governments deal with ** that ** when it happens!
(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-04 06:02:55

This topic is generally in favor of capitalism, but capitalism has flaws, as does any human system ...

The article from the Guardian quoted below indicts capitalism for lack of self-control ...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/leaders-look … 22742.html

Our leaders look climate change in the eyes, and shrug
Hamilton Nolan
Wed, August 4, 2021 6:12 AM

As overwhelming and omnipresent as climate change is, it is not the core issue. The core issue is capitalism. Capitalism’s unfettered pursuit of economic growth is what caused climate change, and capitalism’s inability to reckon with externalities – the economic term for a cost that falls onto third parties – is what is preventing us from solving climate change. Indeed, climate change itself is the ultimate negative externality: fossil-fuel companies and assorted polluting corporations and their investors get all the benefits, and the rest of the world pays the price. Now the entire globe finds itself trapped in the gruesome logic of capitalism, where it is perfectly rational for the rich to continue doing something that is destroying the earth, as long as the profits they reap will allow them to insulate themselves from the consequences.
Capitalism is a machine made to squeeze every last cent out of this planet until there is nothing left
Congratulations, free market evangelists: this is the system you have built. It doesn’t work. I don’t want to lean too heavily on the touchy-feely, Gaia-esque interpretation of global warming as the inevitable wounds of an omniscient Mother Earth, but you must admit that viewing humanity and its pollution as a malicious virus set to be eradicated by nature is now a fairly compelling metaphor. Homo sapiens rose above the lesser animals thanks to our ability to wield logic and reason, yet we have somehow gotten ourselves to a place where the knowledge of what is driving all these wildfires and floods is not enough to enable us to do anything meaningful to stop it. The keystone experience of global capitalism is to gape at a drought-fueled fire as it consumes your home, and then go buy a bigger SUV to console yourself.

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kbd512 · 2021-08-04 09:45:03

tahanson43206,

We have an endless supply of marxists who keep trying to pin every conceivable human problem on one system of governance, because they want a communist system of governance, despite the fact that human history is littered with communism's abject failures. The Chinese didn't adopt capitalism because communism was such a smashing success. The communists were pursuing economic growth in communist countries at the same pace that capitalist countries were. Humans use energy, because using energy increases their lifespan and improves their quality of life. The same personalities making the kind of argument that Hamilton Nolan is making were the ones who blocked the implementation of nuclear power, despite the fact that nuclear power was producing CO2-free electricity long before photovoltaics and wind turbines were anything more than science experiments. Hamilton is a charlatan to his own cause. People like him are too willfully ignorant and arrogant to accept that the technologies that get used the most in capitalist economies are the ones that do whatever they were intended to do with the greatest efficiency. The measure of monetary efficiency involved is ultimately a reflection of energy efficiency. Furthermore, all of the technologies that people like him are touting as solutions were NOT a product of any other market system except capitalism. Capitalism made photovoltaics and wind turbines and batteries practical, not communism.

The entire globe is not "trapped in anything". The communist Chinese are perfectly free to regress both ideologically and technologically to a point in time before industrialization, but not even the communists are willing to go back to living that way, so they use whatever energy is available- coal / oil / gas / hydro / nuclear / wind / photovoltaics / geothermal / anything else they can get their hands on, to drag their people out of crushing abject poverty, a state of existence where nobody cares about the environment at all, because they're far too busy merely trying to survive.

Hamilton Nolan is just another fully-indoctrinated, self-hating anti-humanist sock puppet (of the evil clowns who indoctrinated him) who has more feelings for an inanimate rock, that doesn't care and will never care about his opinions one way or the other, which he has personified as a deity as a substitute for one of the traditional religions (because some people can't survive without religion), to suit his self-destructive death cult ideology masquerading as "caring about the planet". Someone needs to tell these imbeciles that the planet is fine. More than 99% of all the species that have ever lived are now extinct, so it's a safe bet that even if the planet is some kind of deity, that it really doesn't give a rat's rear end about whatever species is currently dominant and likely never will.

His assertion that corporations reap all the benefits while their customers pay the price is patently false. If anyone thought their car was only benefiting someone else, then they wouldn't buy one!

Beyond that, the fires in California were ultimately ideology-fueled (by Hamilton's ideology), because the governments there wouldn't allow anyone to touch their sacred forests to trim back the trees away from high voltage power lines.

The screed of people like Hamilton Nolan is nothing remotely associated with an objective and dispassionate critique of the flaws of any given system of governance. We need qualified psychotherapists to de-program people like him so that they don't personify space rocks for the rest of their lives.

I can distill Hamilton Nolan's entire line of reasoning down to this statement:

"I hate this system of governance that gave so much to so many, because I utterly lack the cognitive abilities to produce something more to my liking or more beneficial to me, personally, so now I must destroy that system and all who benefit from it, in order to externalize the internal mental punishment I inflict upon myself for having achieved nothing worthwhile without the efforts of far better men than I."

That's Hamilton's only true argument. He proposes no solutions agreeable to others and offers nothing of value to his readers. The only thing he offers up is more death and destruction for having been born more successful than 99% of all humans who ever lived. What a waste. This is also the same nutjob who argued for carrying out "1970s style bombing campaigns" because President Trump was elected to office.

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-04 10:00:45

For kbd512 re #14

Thanks for your robust comment upon the essay by Hamilton Nolan .... I'll have to come back to study your comment and compare it to the original.

SearchTerm:Todo compare kbd512 to Nolan essay on capitalism lacking self control

You might well be right on all points ... I'm here at the moment to report arrival of a book recommended by Calliban, which I hope will help to show the path for capitalism to continue to thrive.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-26 17:07:20

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/2018-invent … 00479.html

This canvas car boat cover is a realization of an idea that I suggested to a Tarp manufacturing company.

I'm impressed with the way this entrepreneur put everything together, so that there is a product, there is a marketing system in place, and there is a manufacturing and distribution system in place.

Bravo!

Capitalism at work!

Jonathon Ramsey
Sun, September 26, 2021, 8:00 AM
When Hurricane Harvey hit Texas and ran up the Gulf Coast in 2017, Houston resident and engineer Rahel Abraham was one of those whose lives were blown into disarray by wind and high water. Having the floodwaters total her 2008 Infiniti G35 was bad enough; the aftermath of trying to put life back together without a vehicle in a city that demands travel by car to do anything efficiently, was worse. It took weeks to begin getting insurance payouts, it took a month to get a rental car. Watching her neighbors also struggle try to get back on their feet without vehicles convinced Abraham to work on a way to protect cars in disastrous weather. The result is the ClimaGuard, a military-grade, waterproof, temporary protective enclosure.
When folded, ClimaGuard is a 30-pound plastic tarp that fits in a compact duffle bag. One person can get a vehicle secured inside in about ten minutes in a simple process much like putting on a car cover, except this one has a base that's zipped to the upper part of the cover at about the vehicle shoulder line. Welded seams keep water from entering below the zipper, and Abraham designed the enclosure so that the zipper sits well above the vehicle's water line. So long as the car isn't being tossed about by waves more than a foot high, water won't get in. Tossing about shouldn't be an issue, either, as ClimaGuard comes with anchoring straps to hold the vehicle. If the owner wants to move his car before the flood's receded, Abraham said the floating car can be pushed around with one hand.

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tahanson43206 · 2021-09-26 17:18:18

For SpaceNut .... while working on the Post Repair initiative, I ran across one of your posts in Chat.

It was a while ago, but you had a full head of steam built up criticizing capitalism.

You appeared to be upset that Capitalists were concentrating on running efficient businesses without regard to the workers and all the protections and benefits they wanted.

Capitalism is ** not ** set up to do any of those things. It is like a wild ox that you've harnessed to till your garden. You need to keep a wary hand on the till, and be ready to run for your life if the ox turns on you.

In return for harnessing such a dangerous beast, you get a garden overflowing with abundance.

If you want to harness Capitalism, what makes sense to do is to accumulate stock.

If you have ** not ** accumulated stock, then you can enjoy the benefits of products and services produced by Capitalism, but you are forever denied the monetary reward for harnessing the ox in the first place.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-09-26 19:47:11

Capitalism is and should not be equated with corporate greed and workforce slavery, as so much as they are the job creator. When the corporate greed out weighs that of a profitable business staying where they are we lose in the long run as the greed takes over and the business moves away to over seas where labor is dirt cheap to the point that the profit becomes so great that they no longer care where they came from.
Stocks are just a legal way to gamble a business away from its creator...

kbd512 · 2021-09-26 22:41:29

tahanson43206,

That is one of the most useful and practical inventions I've ever seen for vehicle recovery, especially for folks living here in South Texas and Louisiana. If we lived where we used to live in South Houston, then I would definitely buy one. We resolved our flooding conundrums by moving away from that flood-prone area. I realize that's not an option for everyone, so that device is cheap insurance against losing your vehicle due to flooding. It might be necessary to build car ports with hold-downs to prevent vehicles from drifting off in flood waters, though.

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-27 06:41:55

For kbd512 re #19

It is encouraging to see your favorable review of the car-saver tarp design reported in Post #16

That invention is (apparently) even better than the concept I wrote to Tarpsnow.com to suggest they consider as a product line. There are many vendors of tarps, and Tarpsnow.com is one I've come to trust over a number of years, so I am simply reporting their name as a reliable supplier, and not otherwise connected to them.

However, from the standpoint of earning income for any and all forum readers, it seems to me this product has attractive features. It is understandable. It is affordable to most folks who can afford a $30,000+ car, and it is practical.

I hope that at least **one** member of the forum decides to pursue this business opportunity. The manufacturer can surely use a network of representatives to make customer contact, to explain the product and perhaps even demonstrate it to those who have difficulty imagining themselves able to deploy the system.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-27 20:39:24

As a follow up to the car=saver tarp discussion, here is an enclosure that zips up around a car, from 2018.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ta … ORM=WRVORC

That's a lot of junk in the URL ...

I'll try to improve it.

Here's the same video on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UfWQTzWTeI&t=19s

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-04 10:43:05

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/01/upsh … ket-newtab

In the realm of fiscal policy, some conventional wisdom has also been upended in the last few years. It was thought that large government debt issuance would risk causing a spike in interest rates and crowd out private sector investment. But in that period, huge budget deficits have been paired with low interest rates and abundant credit for businesses.
All of this makes it a challenging time for central bankers and other shapers of policy. “If you’re a policymaker and you don’t have robust confidence in the parameters of the game you are managing, it makes your job a whole lot more difficult,” Mr. McCulley said.

The key message of this piece is that no one understands how the economy works.

This idea is echoed in multiple posts in the NewMars forum.

If a person posts in the forum, and claims to understand how the economy works, chances are they are suffering from delusion.

(th)

louis · 2021-10-04 13:26:37

This is one of the reasons why I propose that on Mars we should have a system of universal share ownership to spread the benefits of capitalism, as one of the new features of the Mars economic system.

Under this system each individual from birth would be endowed with a spread of shares across the the economy. Each child born on a particular sol would be given the same share portfolio .They would retain the portfolio for several decades, perhaps age 50 before they could sell the shares. Shares in companies that were liquidated would be replaced by shares in other companies equivalent in real terms to the starting value.

This would allow all people to benefit in rough equality from the capitalist system.

There are many benefits to capitalism, not least where it is able to invest over the long term. Individuals and even co-operatives find that much more difficult as one's tendency is to enjoy the fruits of labour here and now. Capitalists are allowed happy to follow the market, which makes them more responsive to market information, which allows for more efficient investment.

I am personally very much a "Mixed economy" fan. There are things the state can do well, things individuals and partnerships do well, things big capitalist firms do well and things co-operatives do well. We should aim for diversity but ensure all Mars citizens gain from capitalist activity.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut .... while working on the Post Repair initiative, I ran across one of your posts in Chat.
It was a while ago, but you had a full head of steam built up criticizing capitalism.
You appeared to be upset that Capitalists were concentrating on running efficient businesses without regard to the workers and all the protections and benefits they wanted.
Capitalism is ** not ** set up to do any of those things. It is like a wild ox that you've harnessed to till your garden. You need to keep a wary hand on the till, and be ready to run for your life if the ox turns on you.
In return for harnessing such a dangerous beast, you get a garden overflowing with abundance.
If you want to harness Capitalism, what makes sense to do is to accumulate stock.
If you have ** not ** accumulated stock, then you can enjoy the benefits of products and services produced by Capitalism, but you are forever denied the monetary reward for harnessing the ox in the first place.
(th)

kbd512 · 2021-10-04 19:46:37

Louis,

I propose an economic system whereby every able bodied person must work for what they have in life, irrespective of what mommy and daddy achieved during their lives, because human civilization is built by laying brick after brick, continuously, not by spending most of our time enjoying what our ancestors endowed us with. You learn to appreciate what you work for, not what you've been given, because no effort is expended to merely receive a gift from your ancestors. We should show gratitude for what our ancestors have endowed us with, but we should never believe that what we have collectively achieved is sufficient.

All of the people who contributed the most to humanity started life with nothing or very little, in comparison to what they achieved. As such, there must be something to "being left wanting for a better tomorrow". In the future, should human children want for food or clean water or medical care or suitable shelter? I think not, but neither should they be permitted to go through life without contributing at least as much as their ancestors did, should they wish to continue to enjoy the lifestyle they've grown accustomed to. That is not the way to assure that humanity continues to grow and improve.

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-04 20:23:37

For kbd512 ....

The society you've described sounds a ** lot ** like China!

It sure doesn't sound like the United States.

No one should be doing work that a machine can do, unless they ** want ** to engage in manual labor for personal enrichment.

If you want to establish a police force to make sure every able bodied person does something you consider worth payment, I suppose you could do that.

How do you propose to implement your concept for: "should they be permitted"

Who is going to do the "permitting" in the society you are designing?

It sure does sound as though you are imagining a cadre of overlords, to apply punishment liberally to anyone who does not perform at the desired work level.

Nice place!

Seems to me as though human history includes some experiments along those lines!

(th)

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