New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#451 2020-10-19 06:44:29

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,013

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re topic ...

Thanks for taking a look at what packing 1060 people into 4522 square meters would look like.

Your plan MUST include the two year safe return option, so your ticket price MUST include the costs that flow from that fact.

Your design can succeed, with modification.  At present, anyone who studies the layout will see that human beings cannot be expected to cope with confinement in such a space for a month, let along two years.   The population density of a prison was reported earlier in this topic.

There ** is ** an easy solution.

Your 1900 ship model would have had multiple decks, in addition to the freedom of the open deck, which afforded a view of the open ocean, and plenty of opportunities for physical exercise for the two or three weeks of a trip.

Your 21st Century Interplanetary Ship can have multiple decks.

If you create the deck as shown in the model as a residential space, and if you make some of the cabins to hold five passengers or crew as you have shown in examples in Post #450, then suddenly the intolerable conditions shown in the model would begin to look reasonable.

200 cabins with four bunks, combined with 52 set up with five bunks, would yield your target of 1060 people without hot bunking.

The idea of extending the corridors around the rim (as written up long ago at the beginning of the topic) allows for a bit of movement, but adding multiple decks increases the viability of your concept significantly.

Do you have a reference for your 1900 ship design? 

Thanks again for taking a look at the model.

Reminder: the cabin dimensions are precisely as defined earlier in the topic.  The dimensions of the rim are precisely as given.

The person icons are sized a meter square (with minor variation) to show the space each person would consider personal space.

The layout would look different if the person icons were shown reclining.   However, the double bunk arrangement would mean that the total number of square meters needed to represent two people would be the same (ie, two).

In actual flight, it seems to me reasonable to anticipate a continuous rotation of three shifts between the habitat sections, so that each section of compartments is quiet for eight hours.  That arrangement would allow for distribution of meal provision over 24 hours, as well as physical activity arrangements, such as running surfaces, gym activities, and whatever else you come up with to keep your passengers fit during the trip.

Your original concept did not include any provisions for educational activity, so addition of provisions for educational activity might reasonably comprise an additional deck. 

Edit#1: With rotation of three shifts, the cabins could be cleaned and refreshed while the occupants are on another deck.  In addition, any needed maintenance could be performed in the vacated section.

The wakened section not in cleaning mode could be dedicated to study, if you design your furniture appropriately.  Each person would (presumably) need breaks from study periodically, so the corridors would provide space to take a walk, and another deck dedicated to activity would provide another much needed alternative, before the person returns to the study space.

(th)

Online

#452 2020-10-19 09:13:54

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,241
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

I said 248 cabins that can be configured for either economy or single. With 158 cabins configured economy, average 5 passengers per cabin, and 90 as single @ 2 per cabin, and 8 premium cabins @ 2 per cabin, that totals 986 passengers. That's just one example. It's less than 1,000 because we have 248 standard cabins instead of 256.

Another possible configuration is 82 single cabins, others economy. 166 x 5 + 82 x 2 + 8 x 2 = 1,010 passengers.

Maximum configuration: 248 economy cabins @ 6 per cabin, no singles, 8 premium cabins with hide-a-bed @ 4 per cabin. Total 1,520 passengers. But ask anyone who operates an aircraft or ship, you'll never fill the maximum.

Could we squeeze a hide-a-bed into a club cabin? With 16 club cabins instead of 8 premium, and 4 passengers per cabin (2 per bed), total would be 1,552 passengers. But again, you'll never fill that.

This is a transport ship designed to carry roughly 1,000 settlers to Mars on a one-way trip. That's 6 months to Mars. It's intended for reasonable comfort for 6 months. If something catastrophic happens and a free return is required, that's emergency conditions. If an emergency happens at sea, passengers are stuck in lifeboats. If an emergency happens for an aircraft, passengers are required to exit via emergency exits and inflated slides. Emergency conditions get passengers back alive, not in comfort. With this design all amenities will be available during the emergency return trip, but said amenities are designed for a 6 month journey, not 2 years.

I started with the same volume as Elon Musk described for Starship 2. This is a bit bigger. It's already larger, mass creep is a bugbear for space engineers, you have to be very careful. Many NASA missions have been cancelled due to cost increases. Keep cost under control or you won't go anywhere.

Offline

#453 2020-10-19 09:34:55

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,013

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re topic ...

248 divided by 3 yields a fraction.

252 divided by 3 yields 84 cabins per section.

Symmetry of mass distribution is a physics requirement for your vessel.

(th)

Online

#454 2020-10-19 10:15:53

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,241
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Reference for the 1900 design has been posted several times. Most detailed is post #408, SS City of New York launched 1888, broken up 1923. That was designed for maximum 1,740 passengers. I chose that one because number of passengers is so close. Notice there is no swimming pool, no ice skating rink, no live theatre, no tennis courts, no climbing wall, no laser tag, no "flow rider" surf tank, no casino, no arcade, no disco or ballroom, no miniature golf. It does have one dining room, smoking room, drawing room, library, and barber. There's no separate bar, but there's bar service in the smoking room.

My ship has dining rooms, one bar, and gym. No library, instead Wifi service with server holding documents, fiction books (Kindle), movies and streaming TV shows. Instead of ship decks open to the sky, my ship has observation rooms (decks?) on the "roof". One such observation room is configured with Mars atmosphere and pressure to practice using a spacesuit. I got the idea from the movie "Passengers" where the characters could go outside. But in this case they're still enclosed, no chance of drifting off into space. Part of the roof has a greenhouse. Observation rooms will have potted plants, but greenhouse(s) will be configured to grow food. That's the source of fresh salad and vegetables. And some of the hydroponics will be configured as aquaponics to grow fish. The greenhouse(s) will be accessible in some way to passengers. That's a lot.

Yes, I said passengers will be broken into 3 groups. Each group is assigned one time zone: UTC+0, UTC-8, UTC+8 hours. This means every 8 hours the dining room serves breakfast. Every 8 hours the dining room serves lunch. Every 8 hours the dining room serves supper. During an 8-hour shift, the dining room will serve breakfast for 2 hours, lunch for 2 hours, and supper for 2 hours. For an individual passenger that means breakfast served 6am-8am, lunch noon-2pm, supper 6pm-8pm. For any given time zone that means lunch noon-2pm, breakfast 2pm-4pm (intended for another time zone), non-food 4pm-6pm, supper 6pm-8pm. Then repeat for the next 8-hour period.

There will be individuals providing a free live concert over a meal. Or a science lecture about Mars, or space, or technology. An astronomer giving a "tour of the sky" on the observation deck. Who needs a planetarium when you've got the real sky 24/7. Non-food periods in the dining rooms can be scheduled for gaming, or another lecture or concert.

Study can be done online. With a laptop or tablet from your bunk. Or dining room or observation room. Again, the ship will have servers: file servers and web servers.

In 2005 one of my regular assignments was to "refresh" the "customer experience lab" at Microsoft office in Winnipeg. They had a room with conference table and multiple laptops set up with the latest version of Windows and Office. As a security measure, none of the laptops had Windows activated, they operated on the 60 grace period. Once per month I was brought in to re-image all the laptops. That meant downloading a copy of the entire hard drive, wiping out whatever was on the hard drive before and writing a fresh copy. This reset the grace period to the beginning. If someone stole a laptop, Windows would stop operating when the grace period expired. One high-end laptop was used as the file server. It ran the latest version of Windows Server, including "deployment" feature. Deployment hosted the copy of workstation hard drive, but it could be configured to multicast. That means one copy of the image sent to the network, with up to 254 computers receiving at once. It reduces network traffic, all 254 computers can be completed in the same time as one. The lab had 16 workstations and one server. The point is a server can be a laptop. The server laptop had a different colour, the processor was a server CPU with high data throughput instead of a workstation CPU, and the hard drive had larger capacity. But it was just a laptop. And that was 2005. Servers for the ship could provide streaming video, kindle books, technical documents, educational software, all in a cabinet in the bridge.

::Edit:: SpaceNut proposed the idea of 3 shifts. We all think it's a good idea.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2020-10-19 16:01:26)

Offline

#455 2020-10-19 10:28:47

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,241
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

tahanson43206 wrote:

248 divided by 3 yields a fraction.

252 divided by 3 yields 84 cabins per section.

Symmetry of mass distribution is a physics requirement for your vessel.

Don't expect the same number of cabins per section between spokes. Most of the ring will be standard cabins. I said one tiny section with just 2 luxury cabins. Those luxury cabins can be subdivided, depending on customer demands. But that means only one cabin along the circumference, with the other cabin across the corridor. I showed one spoke attachment with crew cabins on one side, passenger cabins would extend from crew cabin corridors. Around the spoke are bridge, infirmary, fine dining, one kitchen, a public toilet, stairway to upper deck, and storage for machinery and emergency equipment. To the left is luxury cabins. I'll draw the next section, with the bar and one dining room with 50 seats on the other side of luxury cabins. The dining room will be the transition from one corridor to two.

Other spokes will also have elevator, stairway, public toilet, and storage for machinery and emergency equipment. But other spokes will have other public spaces: large dining room, large kitchen, gym, the other 50-seat dining room, laundry. And we need a barber, and security office with monitors. Hmm, maybe I should make the kitchen by fine dining smaller to accommodate security and barber.

Mass must be symmetrical. Location of standard cabins need not.

Offline

#456 2020-10-19 10:52:31

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,241
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

I didn't leave any time between shifts for clean-up or set-up, because servers will "bus" tables continuously, and regular dining rooms will be buffet style. Only fine dining will have table waiters. Without changing tables or chairs, no tablecloths, diners pick up their own place setting from the buffet table, that means staff only have to change the food service trays. I'm thinking of a buffet in my city called Royal Fork. It has a large dining room, separated by a half-wall. The larger section can have two parts closed off with portable walls to create private rooms.

o.jpg
l.jpg

Our ship would have a large dining room with 300 seats. Two areas could be separated with portable walls (operable wall partitions) to form private rooms. And two physically separate dining rooms with 50 seats each. So total of 400 seats, plus fine dining. One of the separate dining rooms will have a bar attached. The bar will have fermentation vats to make booze enroute.

Offline

#457 2020-10-19 20:14:45

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,241
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

My girlfriend suggested birds flying around in the observation deck. As an alternate source of meat. Uh... I'm reminded of a scene from the movie Shrek. (click image for YouTube video)
hqdefault.jpg

She then suggested rabbits as a means to consume plant waste, convert to usable food. That may work on Mars, but the ship has to keep everything compact. I think aquaponics is enough. What do you think?

Offline

#458 2020-10-20 07:54:09

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,013

Re: Large scale colonization ship

This post is a follow up on #449 by RobertDyck ...

Using the images prepared for the populated layout of Post #427, I'm planning to show what the cabin deck would look like if everyone is in their cabin.

Per the suggestion from RobertDyck (earlier in this topic) I will show 200 cabins with four occupants, and 52 cabins fitted with an extra fold-down bed.

Since some members of the crew will always be on duty, they will be shown in non-cabin locations.  Given 60 crew members, I am assuming 20 will always be on duty.

I hope imgur.com management will accommodate this project.  It will require 15 more images.

For anyone interested in replicating the ship layout, tools used include: Spreadsheet, pdf staging, screen capture, Inkscape layer to .svg, and Pinta to .png.

Project initiated 2020/10/20 Earth time.  I expect this will take a couple of weeks.

SearchTerm:Sleep Layout of Large Ship Cabin Deck showing 1040 passengers and crew in cabins and 20 crew awake
SearchTerm:Layout Large Ship Cabin Deck

Edit#1: Adhering to the principle of equal distribution of mass around a rotating surface, and given three spokes, the cabins will be divided into three sections as follows:

Section 1: 67 4 bunks for total of 268 passengers, and 17 5 bunks for total of 85 passengers giving 353 passengers for the section
Section 2: 67 4 bunks for total of 268 passengers, and 17 5 bunks for total of 85 passengers giving 353 passengers for the section
Section 3: 66 4 bunks for total of 264 passengers, and 18 5 bunks for total of 90 passengers and crew giving 354 passengers and crew

Cross checks: 67 + 17 = 84  67 + 17 = 84  66 + 18 = 84 (grand total 252 cabins)

And: 268 + 268 + 264 + 85 + 85 + 90 = 1060

(th)

Online

#459 2020-10-20 09:31:29

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,241
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Thomas Hanson,

Each economy cabin has 6 bunks. Showing cabins with only 4 occupants is not reasonable. I keep predicting most settlers with get an economy cabin, because a ticket to Mars is so expensive. I suggested a reasonable estimate is average of 5 occupants per economy cabin, and 2 for singles, and 2 for luxury suites. But with most cabins on the ship being economy, that means an average of more than 4 per cabin.

Crew quarters would be the same size as standard cabins. Captain and doctor each get a cabin to themselves, configured exactly the same as a single cabin. Officers are 2 per cabin, with the same bunk as economy cabins but no upper bunk, and no 3rd bed. Officer cabins have the shower on the opposite side of the door so there's space at the foot of each bed for a small desk. Enlisted crew get exactly the same as an economy cabin, with 6 bunks per cabin. With 10 officers that's 5 cabins. Using a standard pressure compartment for crew, with 16 cabins, that leaves 9 cabins for enlisted crew. That's why we could increase crew to 66 total. No hot bunking.

Offline

#460 2020-10-20 10:42:56

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,013

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #459

Thank you for additional details about your vision!

***
For all ... there is an opportunity for more than one person to pitch in to help RobertDyck realize his concept.

This started out as a fantasy, but I believe that ** someone ** is going to design a space vessel along the lines that RobertDyck has outlined.

RobertDyck has described multiple configurations of accommodations as he has constructed his vision, and helpers can assist by capturing a given vision and making it "real" in the form that is available to us in this forum.

It takes some work, and it takes some time, but I have shown what the result looks like (or can look like) and I have provided a list of the tools needed.

The only constants that seem to exist at present are:

Per deck:
Width: 19 meters
Length: 238 meters
Rotation: 20 seconds
Spokes: 3

I'll be happy to assist anyone who would like to try their hand at a layout for a deck of the RobertDyck Large Ship.

Don't worry about criticism.  The feedback you provide RobertDyck will help him refine his vision, so that ultimately a funder (or an agency) will pick up the idea and turn it into a reality.  What is needed is actual people doing actual work, to assist RobertDyck in his mission to secure funding.

If anyone would care to go to this amount of effort, it is possible to download the images from imgur.com and print them, so you can lay out the proposed deck on your living room floor.  You can put chess or checkers pieces on the layout to show how people might move around.

Just imagine 1060 people confined to that space for two years, which is the amount of time the vessel must endure if it misses connection with Mars.

The challenge is to help imagine what it will take to bring this vision to reality.

(th)

Online

#461 2020-10-20 16:22:42

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,241
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Looking for input here. In post #315 I said...

RobertDyck wrote:

Updated crew compliment:

Captain, executive officer (XO), communications officer, navigator, 3 deck officers
Petty Officer, 4 sailors (janitor, cargo rigging & handling)
Chief steward, 1 steward for luxury cabin, 12 table waiters, 8 bedroom stewards (housekeeping), 12 cooks, 3 bartenders.
Chief engineer, 8 engineering staff (electrician, plumber, etc)
Doctor & nurse
Exercise consultant (gym, reporting to Chief steward)
Security
Total: 62

We should add a barber.

Could we get input from people who work in hospitality? With 1,000 to 1,200 passengers living in 3 shifts, how many cooks do we need? I made a guess. With one large dining room with 300 seats, two more with 50 seats each, all configured as buffet. Plus a bar adjacent to one of the smaller dining rooms, plus fine dining with 20 seats. Again, how many cooks, how many table waiters, how many crew to bus tables?

And has anyone worked at a hotel? Passengers are long duration, 6 months, they would mostly take care of their own room, but some housekeeping will be required. What is minimal housekeeping? How many crew for housekeeping and laundry?

With a greenhouse onboard, how many agricultural crew needed?

Offline

#462 2020-10-21 17:17:13

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,241
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Just to say my figures aren't completely fiction. This is the MS Kong Harald. It's a transport ship; sometimes used for cruises, but not built as a cruise ship. Built to carry cargo and passengers. Capacity 490 passengers. Car deck can carry cars but not minivans, campervans, or trailers. Cargo capacity 5,000kg. Crew: 60

Travel Weekly: Kong Harald ship stats
Hurtigruten: MS Kong Harald

Ps. I would still like responses to my previous message.

Offline

#463 2020-10-21 18:19:25

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,013

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #462

*** Awe *** Some !!! ***

SearchTerm:Norway Kong Harald tourist ship
SearchTerm:Norwegian Kong harald specifications and itinerary

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 96#p173296

(th)

Online

#464 2020-10-21 18:46:01

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,347

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Cooks meal prep is related to the size of the kitchen and equipment to make use of each time you are preparing the meals. Which is why menus of what gets made each day needs to account for the usage of each piece of cooking equipment and cooking times.
While there is a large ship space is still a commodity that should not be wasted just because you think more space to move around is needed.

This large ship is more akin to how a submarine handles its crews and meals.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita … submarine/
https://www.uboat.net/men/foodstuffs.htm

Maybe a bit out dated but there is still info to be had from it...

Example of a food stored on a Type IXC boat (12 weeks)

494 lbs. fresh and cooked meats
238 lbs. sausages
4,808 lbs. preserved/tinned meats
334 lbs. preserved fish
3,858 lbs. potatoes
397 lbs. dried potatoes
3,428 lbs. other vegetables
1,226 lbs. bread dough
2,058 lbs. preserved breads
463 lbs. rice and noodles
595 lbs. fresh eggs
917 lbs. fresh lemons
2,365 lbs. other fruits
551 lbs. butter and margarine
611 lbs. soup ingredients
408 lbs. marmalade and honey
309 lbs. fresh and preserved cheese
1,728 lbs. milk
441 lbs. fruits juices
154 lbs. coffee
205 lbs. other drinks
441 lbs. sugar
132 lbs. salt
108 lbs. chocolates

main-qimg-3e192c02b4832eebc601617ec7db4cc0-c
Los Angeles (688) class

Miracle is how the cooks did it in a tiny space about 8 feet by 4 feet. Out of this space came four meals a day (breakfast, lunch, supper, and midnight aka mid-rats for about 80 guys.

Of course there will be deviations as well as different cooking appliances to make use of as well as for refrigeration that keeps it all good for the duration.

It's all about morale, which is very important on submarines. A major component of good morale in all navies is the food, and this is particularly true on submarines.

Welcome to Submarine 101!

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/culin … st-3345791

Culinary Specialists are vital in maintaining crew morale on all Navy ships, submarines and shore bases. The CS (Surface) and CSS (Submarine) ratings both carry a 60-month service obligation.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Cooking/commen … df_inside/

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/food-preparatio … /cooks.htm

Offline

#465 2020-10-24 16:32:46

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,241
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

One feature of the ship is to offer the same food as you will get on Mars. Again, everything is about preparing settlers for Mars. Raising livestock can be an issue. Over the years we've discussed food. Livestock require a hard barn, because a plastic film greenhouse would be penetrated; livestock would peck, bite, kick, claw, scratch their way out. Once the pressure wall is penetrated, decompression. Livestock will require oxygen and water recycling, including recycling manure.   And many livestock require basically the same food we eat, just less processed. Pigs certainly do. Cattle eat grass and straw (not hay), as well as other plants that grow in grass. But cattle are normally fed grain and vegetables at a feed lot for two weeks, to alter the flavour. Long enough for the "wild" flavour of dry grass and straw to be flushed out of their meat and fat. Current advertising by A&W claims they will be using 100% grass fed beef; should be interesting how that changes the flavour. But it takes several pounds of food to produce one pound of meat. Birds are more efficient; more meat per pound of fodder. (Yes, the correct English language word for food for livestock is "fodder", not "feed". The word "feed" is the adjective form of food.)

We've also discussed how to get livestock to Mars. Being trapped in a spacecraft with a cow or chicken during high acceleration during launch, zero-G, then coast to Mars, then zero-G preparing for atmospheric entry, then high acceleration entry, then landing. Livestock freaking-out would be dangerous. We discussed refrigerating chicken eggs, but live fertilized chicken eggs can be refrigerated at most 6 weeks. A poultry fridge is not as cold as a kitchen fridge, but still maximum 6 weeks. A trip to Mars is 6 months. So how? We discussed freezing chicken embryos in liquid nitrogen, but that hasn't been worked out. We discussed putting calves weened from milk in hibernation, but that hasn't been worked out either.

Mars Direct habitat is designed for artificial gravity, but there's still periods of zero-G and high-G. SpaceX Starship is designed for zero-G the entire transit.

We discussed guinea pigs, which were bread by the people of the Andes Mountains as livestock before white people arrives. Local aristocracy (or their equivalent) ate lama while working people at guinea pig. Their guinea pigs were larger than those available as pets today in North America. One whole animal is one dinner for one person. But guinea pigs eat grass, not vegetable waste. Do we want greenhouses just with grass for that livestock?

Rabbits? They can eat vegetable waste.

I suggested early Mars settlements would be vegan. Not for any philosophical reason, but just to be practical. More food calories for people per unit area of greenhouse. Those arguing for aquaponics have convinced me. Tilapia fish can eat vegetable waste, and their waste fertilizes hydroponics. One of my concerns was availability of water on Mars, but probes have discovered vast deposits of ice. A settlement would be built adjacent to a large glacier or frozen lake. Enough water for aquaculture or aquaponics.

Yes, a dedicated livestock transport could be built based on the Large scale colonization ship. That would be very expensive. I see that as a late stage of Mars settlement. For a long time Mars will be vegan with fish.

So what meals would be available on ship? How much kitchen do we need? As SpaceNut pointed out, a kitchen can be quite compact. I used the rule of thumb of 5 square feet of kitchen for each seat in the dining room. That's a rule for a restaurant on Earth. A submarine kitchen may be more appropriate.

I suggest passengers in standard cabins (economy or single) can eat all they want in regular dining rooms, all included in their ticket. Passengers in luxury cabins pay more, so they can eat in either standard dinging rooms or fine dining. However, if a standard passenger eats in fine dining, he/she has to pay. Regular dining rooms should offer Mars food. Fine dining should have Earth food available: meat, etc.

Offline

#466 2020-10-24 17:12:01

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,347

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Sounds like the solution is the underground barn for the live stock to reside within once we can make them large enough and with the needed resources for the animals to live in them.

Which brings me back to the ISS for what does a kitchen need if we are making things from near scratch for the meals.?

Microwave is a given but what about baking?

Offline

#467 2020-10-24 17:20:31

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,013

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For SpaceNut re baking (Post #466)

The post you showed us of a submarine kitchen ** seemed ** to show two loaves of freshly baked bread.

Your post #466 opens a question I've never had occasion to think about before ... how much of a role does gravity play in baking?

Because we humans (to the best of my knowledge) have chosen NOT to invest in simulated gravity experiments, it remains for future generations to find out if gravity makes any significant difference for baking.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that RobertDyck's vision would be a useful platform for all manner of Mars gravity experiments.

Long before such a vessel heads out to Mars (or anywhere) it could have spent many valuable years as a science/engineering/biology/psychology platform right in LEO.

(th)

Online

#468 2020-10-24 17:29:20

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,241
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

The floor plan in post #446 could be altered further. The kitchen will service fine dining, one of the separate dining rooms, and the bar. So 20 seats fine dining, 50 seats buffet, and misc bar food. That should require 5 sq.ft per dining seat so 70*5=350 square feet. Add 403 sq.ft for laundry = 753 sq.ft = 69.956 m². That's the size of the area labelled "kitchen" in post #446.

So one of the other spoke elevators will require another small dining room, kitchen for that, plus barber and security. The last spoke could have the large dining room, it's kitchen, and gym. Or should the gym go with the second small dining room?

Offline

#469 2020-10-24 17:44:02

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,241
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

When Shuttle was flying, NASA offered a science fair contest. The national winner got his/her experiment to fly on Shuttle for real! The experiment had to fit in a Get-Away-Special, so had to fit in a corner of the cargo bay, and the only interaction by astronauts was to press one button. One student designed a machine to make bread. He (or she, don't remember) argued that astronauts need fresh food. The machine mixed the dough, let it rise, and baked in one compact device. When the Shuttle landed, a representative from Betty Crocker met with the student to pay the student for patent rights. The home bread machine was invented! So it *should* work in zero-G.

Yeast consumes sugar added to bread dough. Yeast produces CO2 which produces bubbles. Those bubbles remain in the dough because it's very sticky; gluten in flour. When it's baked, that provides the bubbles that make the bread soft. Gravity only contributes when mixing flour with sugar and water and dry yeast. Some salt can be added to stop yeast. Once the dough is mixed, gravity doesn't play much of a role. CO2 bubbles cause the dough to expand.

Yes, baking for 1,000 passengers is far beyond the capacity of a home bread maker. It would require a bakery oven. Not an industrial bakery, but definitely a commercial oven. (Psst. electric oven)

::Edit:: I wonder if the oven could be integrated with the ship's air conditioner. A heat pump would concentrate heat extracted from the ship; instead of radiators operating at extremely high temperature to radiate heat into space, use that heat for kitchen and bakery ovens. Well, in addition to radiators.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2020-10-24 18:16:16)

Offline

#470 2020-10-24 18:35:17

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,241
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Offline

#471 2020-10-24 23:13:36

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,241
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

SpaceNut wrote:

Miracle is how the cooks did it in a tiny space about 8 feet by 4 feet. Out of this space came four meals a day (breakfast, lunch, supper, and midnight aka mid-rats for about 80 guys.

Wikipedia: Los Angeles-class submarine

Complement: 129

The image shows the space to stand is 4 feet wide, presumably 8 feet long. There's counter and stove-tops 2 feet deep on all sides, so the galley compartment is 12 feet by 8 feet = 96 square feet. That's for 129 crew. That's about 0.75 square feet per crew member. If we plan for 1,290 onboard the Large ship, including crew (a little larger than typical) then based on submarine experience we need 960 square feet of kitchen. That's a lot better (more compact?) than 2,100 square feet.

Locate a kitchen adjacent to each dining room, and each kitchen close to an elevator. Transport groceries from storage in the cargo bay aft of the zero-G hub.

Offline

#472 2020-10-25 08:53:35

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,347

Re: Large scale colonization ship

My suggestion would be to spread out multiple galleys proportional to scaling for the ships crew complement versus that of a submarine and mess locations to all for all to gain access with the least amount of time to get from a work center to the chow hall areas. These could be staggered for time of access for keeping all crew active rather than at the same time.

Offline

#473 2020-10-27 18:08:48

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,241
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

tahanson43206 suggested making the gym 2 levels. Ok, if we do that, then make the second level adjacent to the greenhouse. With air from the gym blown directly into the greenhouse. All that CO2 and sweaty air blowing into the plants. smile

My girlfriend suggested blowing exhaust from the laundry machines into a "tropical house". Expecting the observation deck would be dressed as a tropical house.

Offline

#474 2020-10-27 18:29:19

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,013

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck #473

This vessel of yours is starting to sound interesting!

By any chance, did you notice the mention by the new member (jakeypoos) that he's been working on what I ** think ** is some 3D virtual programming?  He might be willing to take a look at your ship concept, once he's finished his current project, which is Shakespearean in scope.

Your project should be a nice (small in comparison) next project if you can interest him.

(th)

Online

#475 2020-10-27 19:19:48

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,241
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

I just realized another potential asset/participant. Michael Paille is a local member of the science fiction community. He was a professional chef before retiring at age 30. He now owns a store that sells collectibles, and founded Central Canada Comic Con. Most people didn't think our city could support a comic convention of 20,000 people, but it did. I could brag how big and impressive the convention was, but I didn't have anything to do with it. Michael was head chef for the entire chain of Montana's restaurants in Canada. He said corporate executives would recruit individuals as candidates to manage a new restaurant, then send them to Michael to see if they could manage a kitchen. Michael's description of what he did to them makes the show "Hell's Kitchen" sound mild. Most candidates ran out crying. When he was in his 20s he ran a catering business on the side, evenings and weekends. He was determined to retire early. I just sent a Facebook message asking if he would be interested in consulting on kitchen design.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB