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#351 2020-09-22 08:43:36

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,973

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Robert,

I'll reply to your assertions in this thread:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9609

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#352 2020-09-22 08:53:35

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck and all who will be helping to design/develop a Large Scale Colonization Ship

My search for a published guide to design and construction of a large cruise ship yielded numerous YouTube videos but nothing in print.  If anyone can find such a guide, please post a link to it, or to a source where it might be found.   My guess is that the expertise to conceive of a large ship, to design the myriad components as well as the master plan, and the skills necessary to build one are held close by the companies who've been engaged in ship building for many years.

However, the military does a decent job of publishing guides for construction of large facilities, because it's mission crosses generations, and the principles that are in play hold reasonably steady over decades if not centuries.

Here is a sample of the kind of documentation that might help members of this forum to assist RobertDyck in his large scale undertaking.

https://www.wbdg.org/ffc/dod

Department Of Defense 
UNIFIED FACILITIES CRITERIA PROGRAM
The Department of Defense (DoD) initiated the Unified Facilities Criteria Program to unify all technical criteria (UFCs) and guide specifications (UFGS) pertaining to planning, design, construction, and operation and maintenance of real property facilities. The program streamlines the military criteria system by eliminating duplication of information, increasing reliance on private-sector standards, and creating a more efficient criteria development and publishing process. Administered by the United States Army Corps of Engineers (HQUSACE), Naval Facilities Engineering Command (NAVFAC), and the Air Force Civil Engineer Center (AFCEC), the UFC Program organizes numerous working groups with one or more experts from each participating organization to develop the technical publications. Further information on the UFC program can be found in MIL-STD-3007 and in the UFC program report  from the last fiscal year. UFC 1-300-01 and UFC 1-300-02 also provide information on developing UFC documents.  Read More

(th)

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#353 2020-09-22 19:48:18

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

tanhanson43206 (Thomas Hanson) has become very excited about this proposal. I have to be careful here. My whole life I've had people tell me I'm nobody, I'm nothing, to stay out of the way. I grew up during the space race of the 1960s, watched the last 2 missions of Mercury live on TV (with my mother), all of Gemini, and all of Apollo. My childhood ambition was to be the engineer who designs the spacecraft for the first human mission to Mars. Not to be an astronaut, I wanted to be an aerospace engineer. Obviously didn't happen. I live in Manitoba, only one university in this province has an engineering faculty at all, and they didn't have aerospace. I grew up on the blue collar side of a railroad town. My father was a high steel construction worker until his young wife became pregnant with their first child (me). He then got a job as a "boiler maker" with the railroad. That's a welder certified to weld pressure vessels. He worked in the heavy equipment shop, repairing heavy equipment that maintained the tracks. My mother worked for the telephone system; by the age of 22 she worked her way up to supervisor of the business office for the city of Brandon (at the time roughly 36,000 people). After her children were in school, she went back to work, got a job as an accountant. When I was in junior high, her employer asked her to create a computer department. She was manager of the computer department. All my teachers and every adult I knew told me that I have no hope of every getting a job as an aerospace engineer. After Avro Arrow as cancelled, there's no future in aerospace engineering anywhere in Canada. People here don't understand how much that impacted my life or the rest of Canada. Avro Arrow was cancelled in 1959, years before I was born, yet in Career Day at the end of grade 10 in spring 1978 all my teachers and every adult told me there's no future in aerospace anywhere in Canada. At all. Period. So I went into computer science, learned how to be a software developer.

I first joined the Mars Society in 1999. The Society was only founded in 1998. Part of the Society charter:
Starting small, with hitchhiker payloads on government funded missions, we intend to use the credibility that such activity will engender to mobilize larger resources that will enable stand-alone private robotic missions and ultimately human exploration.
I pointed out that NASA just sent Deep Space 1 to demonstrate an ion engine. Why don't we send a small mission directly? Access orbit as a hitchhiker mission on Shuttle. Before Columbia, if any Shuttle payload had an unused corner of the cargo bay, that could be filled with a "hitchhiker" payload. That was a drum about the size of an oil barrel, up to 200 pounds. If the device was to be deployed in orbit, not return to Earth, then it required an ejection mechanism. In that case the payload must be no heavier than 150 pounds. Maximum intervention by an astronaut was to press one button to turn the device on. So I suggested we use an ion engine to spiral out from LEO, head to Mars. It would take longer than 6 months, longer than a Hohmann transfer, based on NASA probes (then planned) using an ion engine to asteroids, it would probably take 2 years. But that's Ok.

On the first Mars Society internet forum, we held a vote what the mission should be. That forum didn't have capability to do a vote, so I wrote a script on the server at work and made a post on that forum so we could vote. The majority voted for a weather balloon. Then I discovered there were 3 other groups within the Mars Society interested in a Mars balloon. I got them all to work together. Robert Zubrin got a contract with JPL to build a simulated Mars balloon. It was carried by a stratosphere weather balloon to an altitude where the pressure and temperature was the same as the atmosphere on Mars, then deployed the Mars balloon. It worked. So I suggested we use Dr. Zubrin's balloon design. Several qualified Mars Society members wanted to join the project. One engineer for Cisco who designed power supplies for a living wanted to design the power supply for our project. I was a software developer working on the QNX operating system. The CanadArm for Shuttle used QNX for its vision system. I found a company in California that sold commercial-off-the-shelf space hardened computers. Another Society member worked for a US military contractor who had bid on the Minuteman missile. They didn't land the contract, but their bid was a titanium propellant tank for the multiple warhead bus. The tank would collapse like a jelly roll (cream roll), the spring action of the titanium tank would provide constant pressure so no need for a propellant pump. And one individual had just graduated from university in Australia with a Ph.D. in aerospace engineering. His specialty was heat shields and aeroshells. He asked to design the heat shield and aeroshell for our mission. Of course I said yes! That was Paul Wooster. He now works for SpaceX as Principal Mars Development Engineer.

I called the Glenn Research Centre to see what information I could get about the NSTAR ion engine used on DS1. They had the lead engineer talk to me directly. He was pleased I was interested in his device, sent everything that was allowed outside the US. I still have that: schematics, in space performance reports, etc. As the engineer put it, everything short of the blue prints. I called the Shuttle small payloads program; the direct of that program spoke to me himself. He said a getaway special cost $8,000 for a US educational institution, or $27,000 for everyone else. But that's if you go up and come down. Great! We could afford that! He then apologized and said that's if your payload goes up and comes down. If it separates from Shuttle and stays in orbit, that's considered a Hitchhiker mission. That cost $2 million. He said NASA senior management didn't want to compete with commercial launch vehicles. But he also said if we get a NASA agency (as he put it) to sponsor our program, then we get a free ride on Shuttle. He claimed with my connections I could get such sponsorship easily, and told me the form number they need to sign. Easily? Well. We did have a couple senior NASA people on the board of directors. So I asked Dr. Robert Zubrin to make this an official Mars Society project. That was so we could ask board members about NASA sponsorship. But Dr. Zubrin was concerned that our team included individuals who were not professional engineers, so he said no. I was very disappointed. I dropped the project at that point. The project died as soon as I dropped it. I hadn't quite realized how important I was to the project.

The German chapter tried to do a Mars balloon on their own, but they haven't made much progress in 20 years. After the Columbia disaster, NASA said no small explorers would be launched from Shuttle. So our ride to space was permanently gone.

I have registered with NASA and CSA as a contractor. I did bid on a few NASA contracts. Got on their short list twice, but never landed any contract.

The point is I have to be careful not to let this project die. You want to get serious? Good.

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#354 2020-09-22 22:20:32

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,331

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Shuttle is no more and the chances of a small project getting the same level of budgetary dollars are not all that good either.
Nasa has put a large dollar value on the first phase estimated to cost in order to meet the 2024 deadline as being $28 billion, $16 billion of which would be spent on the lunar landing module...

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#355 2020-09-23 06:29:27

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For SpaceNut re #354

Thanks for your reminder of NASA and its activities ....

I don't see NASA as a customer for RobertDyck's initiative .. A far more likely customer would be SpaceX or Blue Origin.

A second tier of potential customers would be the Nation States who are interested in Mars.   If RobertDyck succeeds in building a consortium to finish the design, and to build digital models of sufficient strength to validate the concept, there may well be an interest on the part of (some) nation states to contribute to construction and operation of such a vehicle.

This is probably ** not ** what anyone would (normally) call a "small" project.

I think that the best we can hope for with the Mars Society is to avoid becoming an embarrassment.  It is difficult to imagine anyone associated directly with the Mars Society wanting to have anything to do with it until it succeeds, then (I'm sure) they will want to claim it.  In doing so, they would be within their rights, because the Society is providing the funding for this forum, and the culture within which it has been sustaining itself for nearly 20 years.

There ** is ** a vast reservoir of free talent available on this planet!  The worry I see about paying people is understandable, but meaningless.  The folks I'm talking about at in a golden period between the end of a long career in aerospace (or other needed disciplines) and senility.

To my mind, it is a ridiculous waste of all that talent, experience, education and creativity to let it just fade out unused.

The membership of this forum demonstrates the capability of some members of the generation I am talking about.

(th)

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#356 2020-09-23 09:14:38

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

This is for RobertDyck ...

Just a suggestion at this point .... FluxBB refused to set this up as an image ...

https://www.google.com/search?q=exercis … GY5l69bjnM

My thought was that having the propulsion unit on both sides of the habitat wheel would reduce the amount of pointing your navigator needs to do.

If the vessel is aligned with long axis pointing to the Sun (as you have specified) then the main propulsion force can be directed away from the Sun (toward Mars) and toward the Sun (toward Earth).

Further more, if you decide to experiment with this shape, then you can create a working model with a spinning "habitat" wheel, to experience the gyroscopic forces directly, and thus gain an understanding of the thrust capability your navigator will be asking for.

There are YouTube videos (or at least one) that show how a spinning bicycle wheel, held by two hands on an axle projecting from the wheel, can be used to experience the power of gyroscopic force.

(th)

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#357 2020-09-24 13:52:46

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

In another discussion thread, you mentioned luxury. I mentioned the ship would have 2 large luxury suites, that could be subdivided if the full-size suites are not booked. Here's an example of the huge luxury suite. Royal Caribean Cruise lines, ship "Harmony Of The Seas", cabin "4-Bedroom Presidential Family Suite".
1067e200638d3ad.jpg

or this... (Independence Of The Seas, Royal Suite)
5310442f0450fff.gif

or each could be divided into 2 of these... (Owners Suite)
53102b87e3e77bf.gif

or each could be divided into 4 Premium Suites:
1067d6aad47c418.jpg

or 8 Club Cabins:
106715683e8154f.jpg

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#358 2020-09-24 15:29:53

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #357

Impressive!  I like the grand piano!  The sound should carry throughout the ship, with doors open, or it could be delivered by wire.

What I'm starting to anticipate is your layout of the entire rim, including recreation, dining and perhaps other areas I haven't thought of ??? theater ???

In addition, I'm looking forward to seeing your thought process as you think about the hub, where everyone needs to be accommodated in the case of a Solar Flare.

That would only be a temporary inconvenience, of course, but whatever you put there will be interesting to study.

(th)

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#359 2020-09-24 15:51:22

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Hmm. You think a water wall with 4" thick tank of water is not enough? Window would be two panes of aluminum oxynitrride filled with mineral oil. Radiation hot cells from the 1950s/60s/70s uses mineral oil for windows. As clear as water yet lighter than water. Density 0.8–0.87 g/ml, while water is 1 g/ml. Hydrogen is best for shielding against GCR and proton radiation from the Sun, basic formula CnH2n+2. One example molecule is C50H102. Carbon has average molecular weigh 12.011 while oxygen has 15.999, so carbon is better for radiation shielding as well. Baby oil is perfumed mineral oil.

For the hub I was thinking of basically a big open space with padded walls, soft strap handles all over the walls. Docking hatch at forward end, big windows forward. Aft end has hatch to cargo bay(s). Side walls have elevators that go down the spokes. Remember long term storage of food is in zero-G cargo hold aft of the hub. Big zero-G gym.

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#360 2020-09-24 15:53:38

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

I linked some cabin floor plans from cruise ships. Is a grand piano practical? I guess anything goes for someone willing to pay for the largest suite.

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#361 2020-09-25 04:12:51

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Here's a PowerPoint from NASA about radiation shelter for Lunar Gateway.
Solar Particle Event Protection Requirements for Exploration Habitats
A few images from that PowerPoint...
FnIb3X9.jpg E8ghWZo.jpg J8WE5iU.jpg

They argue for ~4 inches of water for shielding, or equivalent using stored food. Note: density of water is 1g/ml = 1g/cm³. In post #329 I suggested 10.2cm (4.01575") thick water tank in the sunward wall. This means 10.2 g/cm² shielding. Notice the large scale ship is a single deck 2.4 metres high by 19 metres wide. Ensuring the aft end of the ship is always pointing toward the sun, that means the 2.4 metre high water tank provides shielding for the entire habitation ring. Only the aft out cabin has the water wall, but the inner cabins and forward cabins are in the shadow. This is shadow shielding. I makes all the cabins radiation shelters. So all the cabins all the time. I also said the water tank would be divided by a plastic sheet into potable water and grey water. The shower would have a cyclone water filter so 70% of the water that goes down the drain comes right back out the shower head. This is from a design student in the UK. The other 30% would go to a water processing unit in the life support wall of the cabin. Resulting grey water would go into the grey water side of the wall tank. Final processing would be done by life support in the roof of a pressurized compartment. Visualize an office building that has a cube box on the roof where the air conditioner resides. Our spacecraft would have cabin separated into compartments that can be sealed off in case of decompression; each compartment holds 4 cabins x 4 cabins, so 16 cabins total. The roof of one compartment has one cube with the compressor for the air conditioner, and final water filtration. But this means if a passenger takes a long hot shower, the water consumed from the potable water side of the bladder (plastic bag) holding water in the wall tank will become grey water in the other side of the bladder (plastic bag) in the same wall tank. How long the final filtration system takes to process grey water into potable water doesn't matter; total volume of water in the "water wall" tank remains constant.

This means cabins **ARE** the radiation shelter. Greenhouse and observation decks on the roof would have to be off limits during a solar particle event. The kitchen would also require access to water, so would also have a water wall. This means food could be prepared in the ship's commercial kitchen, as the entire kitchen is also part of the radiation shelter. Common areas would also be off limits: dining rooms, gym, and bar. You would want medical accessible, the kitchen could be arranged so one water wall provides shielding for both kitchen and medical. Would want the bridge shielded as well. Spokes would not have shielding, so elevators to the hub; you wouldn't want to travel between hub and ring. Staying in the hub would be shielded, but cabins themselves are radiation shelters.

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#362 2020-09-25 05:00:20

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #361

SearchTerm:RadiationProtection Large Ship   http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 00#p172600

I'm looking forward to seeing a flat (2D) representation of the "floor" of the habitat ring.

The circumference is on the order of 238 meters, which (conceivably) might be represented by a single spreadsheet, with columns representing the spaces in the 19 meter cross section (rooms and hallways) and the number or rows (at 4.2 meters per row (as I recall)) would amount to 56.

That is a reasonable sized spreadsheet, and it should be possible to capture that as an image.

That way, locations such as dining facilities, laundry room and similar functions that are part of a "normal" cruise ship can be shown.

I would have thought you might have wanted to keep the mass of the rim as low as possible, by locating as much as possible of the support functions in the central shaft of the vessel, but I get the impression you are thinking of placing everything (including the kitchen sink) in the rim, and using the central shaft as a big open play room with nothing from one end to the other.

Fascinating!

(th)

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#363 2020-09-25 09:52:41

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Floor plan of standard cabins cabins. This is a floor plan, you're looking down at the floor. Standard cabins can be fitted with 3 bunk beds for 6 bunks, or a Murphy bed and dresser/storage for single cabins.
YsL6tmX.jpg

Floor plan of luxury cabins. Two luxury cabins on the ship, one on each side of the corridor. Luxury cabins can be subdivided by portable walls into 4 premium cabins. Or 8 club cabins 2.4m x 8m. Or mix, depending on customer demand.
ZkRL1k1.jpg

Cabin cross-section. This shows the ceiling arched. The reason for the arch is stress from pressure. So interior walls hold arch edges down, like an air mattress. The floor requires more structure to be flat. But remember it's not really flat, it's a cylinder. Where there's a greenhouse or observation deck on the roof, the ceiling has to be flat because that's the upper deck floor.
pSXgUfv.jpg

There are 4 standard cabins across, each 4 metres long, two corridors each 1.5 metres wide. So 4x4 + 2x1.5 = 19 metres wide. Plus 0.102 metres (10.2cm) for water tank at one end. Plus hull thickeness.

Standard cabins are 2.4 metres wide from centre-of-wall to centre-of-wall. So a pressure section with 4 cabins across is 4 x 2.4 = 9.6 metres of circumference. There are 16 pressure sections so 16 x 9.6 = 153.6 metres. Luxury cabins are 8 x 2.4 = 19.2 metres of circumference. Radius from centre of rotation to surface of floor is 37.6992 meters, circumference is Pi x D = 236.871 metres. So that leaves 236.871 - 153.6 - 19.2 = 64.071 metres of circumference for everything else. Realize this is mostly cabins.

Fitting into remaining space are: bridge, kitchen, laundry, gym, dining rooms, bar, medical, crew cabins. All of which requires gravity. I have posted floor area for each of these, but have a work assignment so will get back later.

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#364 2020-09-25 13:36:49

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #363

It is good to see this familiar sketch of the floor plan you are thinking about.

I am proposing that you take your floor plan to the next stage of development, by showing the entire floor plan.

I have prepared a spreadsheet to show what I have in mind, and written out an image which is on its way to imgur.com later today.

It is possible to show the entire floor plan in a single 8 1/2x11 image, (portrait format) which is shrunk to fit.

I am hoping you will be able to show how 1000 people would be able to live comfortably in your design for two years.

It would be a real break through if you can pull this off.

You have set this high bar for yourself, and no one (that I know of) is holding you to it, if it turns out you need to make adjustments.

(th)

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#365 2020-09-25 15:09:29

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re Large Ship Habitat Layout ...

Hopefully, here is an image of a spreadsheet that can show the layout of the entire inside surface of the Circle Y design ...

raMjlih.png

You can, if you have the time, use color codes to show the various types of locations, or (for those who may prefer black and white images) you can use various cross hatch designs, or perhaps icons, to show the purpose of each location.

This would be a helpful next level for the design process, because it would allow viewers to be able to imagine themselves located in the structure you've created, and contemplating moving from home base (economy cabin in my case) to the dining hall, recreation room, or library (if there is one).

56 rows is an estimate.  Your actual design may have more or fewer rows. Edit#1: That estimate is for row width of 4.8 meters.

99 rows would be close to the number we would see if the economy cabin is used as the measure: 238.+/2.4 >> 99 and change

(th)

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#366 2020-09-25 16:14:34

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

After days of no work, got a couple assignments. After a Lenovo warranty repair that went smoothly this morning, dropped off dead part with UPS for return. Ate lunch at a restaurant nearby, on the way home. While a lunch received another call for the same building, one floor up from the restaurant. Now on my way back to customer from last night to finish. Keyboard and trackpad didn't work. Just needs cables rested, but customer was tired. I also broke his camera. Ordered a new one with Lenovo. I won't get paid for work this evening but will when the new camera arrives. Support says I'm not the first to break that camera. Flimsy and snapped in hard. Anyway, off to another assignment, will spend.more time on our ship when I get home.

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#367 2020-09-26 03:43:31

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

In post #190 I gave square feet of extra areas:

Dining: 4,300 sq.ft
Kitchen: 2,100 sq.ft
Gym: 4,000 sq.ft
Laundry: 403 sq.ft
Infirmary: 260 sq.ft
Bridge: 200 sq.ft

Crew quarters: captain and doctor each get a single cabin. Junior officers are 2 per cabin, same size as single/economy cabin. Rest of the crew get economy, 6 per cabin. That's 15 crew cabins, 2.4m x 4m = 9.6 m² each.

I said 3 elevators, one per spoke. And in post #228 I calculated 3.19512m diameter for the shaft, not including pressure hull or micrometeoroid protection. That's 8.018m² each. With 3 elevators that's 24.054m².

So we have 64.071 metres of circumference for everything other than passenger cabins. With 19 metres width: 64.071 x 19 = 1217.349m². Then subtract crew cabins: 15 cabins @ 9.6m² each = 144m². Then subtract elevators; that leaves 1049.295m². Other areas are in square feet so convert:  11,294.517381 sq.ft. Subtracting above areas in square feet, we're left with 31.517381 sq.ft. This is total area for corridors (not passenger cabin), lounge/bar/club, workshop (janitorial/engineering), and stairs to greenhouse or observation deck on the roof. Uhhh...

Note: stair cases must be enclosed, with a door to the staircase. That's in case of decompression. The top of the staircase must have a "trap door" to the upper deck, a pressure door that can be sealed shut. And the base of the staircase must have a conventional door that can also be sealed shut. So the stairs themselves can be an airlock should the upper deck suffer decompression.

Again, looks like a problem. Not enough space.

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#368 2020-09-26 06:30:59

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re Large Ship ....

(and specifically thinking about Post #367)

The goals you have set for yourself can be adjusted, if doing so will increase chances your design will appeal to Quark and his friends.

The form factor of 19 meters by 238 meters seems worth keeping.  The layout of that space is in play right now, and while you've started with some ambitious concepts (such as 1000 passengers) it should be possible to adjust the passenger/crew count to provide for a living space good for two years.

The Mars gravity specification seems worth locking in place, along with the Mars atmosphere in non-habitat regions of the vessel.

Since you have many years as a software developer, you can understand the concept of mission creep, and the need to lock specifications before the customer adds frills that can wait until the current project is finished.

What your topic could use is an anchor post where you define locked specifications.

At the moment, the only specifications I would recommend you lock are the short list given above.

If you lock too early, you will prevent (or may prevent) innovations you'd like to have in the final design.

Above all, please forget about trying to pay for this vessel with income from any category of customer.  Let others worry about finding customers who can afford your voyage opportunity.  Your imagination is (I believe) capable of defining a living space that people will be willing to pay for, regardless of the cost, if you can create something that would be worth two years of a person's time, and which is safe enough so a wealthy patron would consider sending a son or daughter on a "Mars Cruise".

Nation states will be willing to pay whatever you need to charge to put their citizens on Mars, or return them safely to Earth if there is a wave-off.

(th)

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#369 2020-09-26 10:49:01

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Well, we had quite a debate about crew. Some argued for more crew. In post #186 I listed proposed crew. One more cabin would provide for more crew. With 16 crew cabins, all standard size cabins, we could use one of the pressurize compartments for passenger cabins. That would leave 144m² (1,550 sq.ft) more floor area for corridors, lounge/bar/club, workshop, and stairs. That would drop passenger standard cabins from 256 to 240.

I still think you miss understand about air. I said air in the ship would be the same as air in a habitat on Mars. The only reference to Mars atmosphere is one of the observation chambers on the "roof" could be filled with Mars atmosphere at Mars pressure. And the floor of that chamber could be covered with Mars regolith simulant. After a trip to Mars, the simulant could be replaced by real Mars dirt. Passengers can practice putting on a spacesuit and walking in Mars atmosphere with Mars gravity.

I hesitated before typing "regolith"; that word was invented to describe the loose material on the surface of the Moon. Moon regolith is igneous rock pulverized by billions of years of meteorite and micrometeorite impacts. Each grain of sand or dust has sharp edges. Mars surface is covered in material that includes soft minerals like clay, formed by moving water (rivers and streams). A more accurate term for Mars surface is "dirt". Some geologists have started using the word "Mars soil", but in agricultural science there's a very clear distinction between dirt and soil. Soil has organic matter, dirt does not. Mars surface has sand with softened edges from being wind-blown, and soft material like clay and gypsum. Mars also has fines; same minerals as sand but grains pulverized by wind into grains as fine as flour. On Earth that's called Loess. A combined mixture of loess, sand, clay, etc with no organic matter is called "dirt".

Greenhouses would use hydroponics to grow salad and fresh vegetables. Some plants could use air-ponics. That means plants grown in a tray with leaves above the tray, roots dangling in air beneath the tray. Water with hydroponic solution is sprayed on the roots. A drip tray beneath the roots collects the solution so it can be recycled, sprayed on the roots again. The purpose of air-ponics is less water so lower mass. I'll let agricultural experts decide which is best for which food crops.

Greenhouses could even have aqua-ponics. That's hydroponics integrated with aquaculture. An aquarium with fish. The fish are fed plant waste such as leaves and stems, things humans can't eat. Aquarium water with fish poop is circulated through hydroponics so fertilizes the plants. The usual fish is tilapia because they're vegetarian (eat plants, not other fish) and tolerate crowed conditions. So fresh tilapia fish could be served as meals on the ship.

Oxygen generators will be chloroplast bags. They can be refreshed onboard. Grow pea plants from germination to 14 days, then harvest leaves. It has to be leaves from young plants. The leaves are cut up, ground, then processed to isolate chloroplasts. A biochemistry professor from my alma mater gave me an undergraduate lab exercise to do it. But for the oxygen generator, processing will have to be done in a glove box filled with CO2. Chloroplasts are sensitive to oxygen. A workbench with centrifuges to do this can be located in a greenhouse.

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#370 2020-09-26 17:27:04

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

You know, I'm not comfortable removing that many cabins. I had added 4 cabins to make it a whole number of pressure compartments. We could add a pressure compartment, but only half for cabins. That adds 8 more standard cabins, so just 4 short of the original count. So now 248 standard cabins. This reduces floor area for other stuff by 91.2m². This leaves 599.851851 square feet for corridors, lounge/bar/club, workshop, and stairs. And crew cabin corridor is covered. We could place a bar in the observation deck. It would be off limits during a Solar Particle Event, but that's Ok.

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#371 2020-09-26 18:26:27

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re floor plan for rim ...

Here is a spreadsheet that assumes a full 99 rows for economy cabins.  The Mars Side of the rim is indicated on the left. The Sun Side of the rim is indicated on the right.  Corridors are shown between cabin columns 1 and 2, and between cabin columns 3 and 4. 

I this image shows up at all, it will indicate the challenge of trying to represent the entire rim in a single portrait sized image.

emdFjoU.png

Edit#1: I used "long bond" paper in the spreadsheet (13 inches long).

The horizontal representation is not to scale (of course).  The intent is to try to provide a sense of how space is allocated in the rim for various purposes.

An alternative that might work better is to divide the expanse into multiple images, so that scale can be set up correctly.

If that is done with an 8 1/2 by 11 inch standard layout, then the fonts will be large enough to be readable.

The impression I am getting (without having a visual guide) is that the layout being proposed would consist almost entirely of rooms, and almost nothing would be available for dining facilities, meal preparation and laundry services, entertainment and study areas.

Hopefully this attempt to show what is possible will inspire you to find even better tools for the purpose.

(th)

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#372 2020-09-26 19:33:48

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Yea, well. We're going from Apollo to Mars Direct to Starship to this. So this is definitely huge and luxurious by comparison. BTW, NASA had plans for a human mission to Mars in 1968. Their first pen-and-paper exercise for Mars was 1965, but they got serious in 1968. It would use a modified Apollo CSM with 4 astronauts. Would require some sort of module for extra living space as well as long duration life support. But definitely cramped. Mars Direct was to have 4 astronauts because that's what NASA wanted. Ironic that NASA then demanded 6 astronauts.

Who was it who proposed having passengers live in 3 shifts? That wasn't my idea, but it's a great one! Cruise ships today don't have one big dining room; Titanic and ships before it did, but ships today have several smaller dining rooms, each with a different theme. I was thinking of that. One dining room for upscale meals, intended to cater to passengers in luxury suites. But at least one spacious observation room on the roof with all window walls and ceiling. Another room on the roof for practising with spacesuits. Greenhouses to grow food, and ensure passengers could visit the greenhouses. Dining rooms would serve meals in shifts. If meals are 2 hours each, breakfast/lunch/supper, then that's 6 hours for meals per 8 hour shift. That leaves 2 hours per 8 hour shift to give a lecture, concert, etc. Perhaps a meal with a presenter. But if there are, say 3 observation rooms on the roof, one between each spoke, then an event could be scheduled there as well. Ensure at least one observation deck is reserved for quiet, so passengers could just get away and stare at the stars. When you look at the standard cabin layout, a room on the roof could be quite large. All of the upper deck would have to be off limits during an SPE, but the vast majority of the time this becomes a two deck ship.

(Ack! It's growing!)

Remember it's intended for a 6 month journey, one way to Mars. Very few passengers during the return back to Earth. If we can speed the journey to 4 months, then we *MIGHT* be able to make 2 trips per alignment. A 2 year journey is a free return. That means an emergency, limping home while trying to just survive. Are you seriously thinking of a luxury cruise ship, 2 year round trip just for fun?

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#373 2020-09-26 20:05:51

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re important question ...

Are you seriously thinking of a luxury cruise ship, 2 year round trip just for fun?

No, I'm intent on trying to keep the possibility of a wave-off firmly in mind. 

The Captain you choose is going to know enough to be prepared for a wave-off, and that individual will expect to have a plan well thought through to insure everyone returns to Earth safely.

The foundation for that plan will have its foundation in the decisions you make now, in the earliest stages of development of the vessel and its flight plan.

I certainly agree that the conditions for passengers and crew will change from carefree abandon to grim privation, but the experience will be good for Apollo 13 stories to the grand children. 

I like your expanded thinking to build some useful functionality into the roof.

If you would rather delegate responsibility for the floor plan to me, I am willing to give it a try, now that the basic structure of the spreadsheet representation is established.

As a first cut, I'll see what I can do with the 248 cabins, assuming 4 meters length and 2.4 meters width.

I'll feel a lot better about your plan when I can see what is left after the cabins have been defined.

A detail that will improve the layout is the ability to define the width of columns.  At the moment the columns are set to 1 meter width.

***

The rim is going to be rotating at 1 revolution each 20 seconds.  I cannot imagine anyone wanting to look out at the Universe while rotating at that rate.  Plants in the greenhouse won't care.

To simulate what a view out a port might be like, it should be possible to set up animation to provide the equivalent of rotation.

SpaceNut, if you catch this conversation, and if your computer is working again, and if this appeals to your wide range of interests, it would be helpful to know if a planetarium program is available that can be set up to simulate rotation of a space craft.  I ** know ** it can be done. Every planetarium program based upon digital technology is able to perform that function.  What I don't know is whether there is a version of that concept that will run on a personal computer.

(th)

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#374 2020-09-26 20:21:08

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,336

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For anyone following this topic ...

https://www.roomsketcher.com/floor-plan … fps-us-002

The link above appears to offer a free starter service. it might be possible for someone with an interest in seeing RobertDyck's space ship floor layout to experiment with this package, to see if it can adapt to the somewhat unusual format. 

Apparently output of designs can be printed, which normally means it can be delivered as a pdf file.  That is how I prepare spreadsheets for delivery via imgur.com.  I write a formatted page to pdf, call the pdf up on a screen, and use a screen capture utility to make a png. That can be uploaded to imgur.com, and imgur.com kindly provides the correct format for the image to appear in this forum.

(th)

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#375 2020-09-26 20:50:50

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,320
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

The first thing is anchor points for the spokes. That will be elevators, and structural support for the ring. If we stick with 3 spokes, they're at fixed 120° intervals, and must be in the centre (fore/aft).

As for structural support, the circumferential cabin walls hold ceiling to floor. So no pillars, instead weight bearing walls. The centre bulkhead separating forward cabins from aft will be a pressure bulkhead. Cross bulkheads separating pressure compartments will also be pressure bulkheads. All pressure bulkheads will be weight bearing. Large dining rooms may require pillars in lieu of weight bearing walls.

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