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#1 2020-09-13 08:31:10

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,746

Business Opportunity Fire Shelter

in September of 2020 on Earth, the impact of Global Warming is making itself felt severely in the West Coast of the North American continent.

I have observed that the skies over Vancouver have been obscured by smoke in recent days, and observations from space show the extent of smoke clouds covering vast regions of land and sea.

The specific business opportunity I see arising from this disaster is design, manufacture, delivery, installation and maintenance of fire shelters for individual homes, and for communities.

The community working on planning for settlement of Mars are particularly well suited to develop this business opportunity, because the shelters needed to insure survival on Mars have a lot in common with those that are needed to protect humans and a few lucky animals from a fire storm such as those that have swept over communities in California and Oregon in recent days.

Posts to this new topic should be (as much as possible) practical solutions to the problem posed by fire storms.

There are plenty of topics elsewhere in the forum for political rants, and I look forward to seeing them as they appear.

I'm inviting NewMars contributors to think about practical solutions to a problem that is (obviously) immediately at hand.

SearchTerm:AnchorMarsShelter
SearchTerm:AnchorFireShelter

Edit#1: This topic has received contributions which can be collected here ...

Objective ... design a shelter able to sustain four humans and two pets for a week

On Mars, it is necessary to maintain an atmosphere suitable for humans
For this RobertDyck has a recommendation: << I am still searching for the mixture >>

In the mean time, here are related links:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 16#p171616 <<== procedure to process Mars atmosphere

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p171622 <<== SpaceNut on Moxie vent CO

On Earth in a fire, there needs to be a small positive pressure inside the habitat so that poisonous gases outside cannot seep in

In both habitats, there needs to be a supply of power sufficient to sustain the environment for a week without introducing excessive risks

In both habits the air needs to be continuously cleaned and returned for the residents.  CO2 needs to be removed and Oxygen returned.

The International Space Station offers a model for continuous living in a comparable environment.

The ISS uses electricity for cooking.  It has no refrigeration for normal living, although some experiments can be and often are supported by refrigeration to permit safekeeping of samples for delivery to Earth for study.

The ISS recycles water, and processes human waste.



(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-15 06:43:20)

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#2 2020-09-13 09:12:13

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Business Opportunity Fire Shelter

We have been having fires up and down the west coast for quite sometime now due to the changing levels of rain fall and winter snows.

Those that survive have used swimming pools, escaped barely through the fires in vehicles damaged by the heat ect...

The issue for fire is not reacting to the smell of smoke and to now collective alert system to warn areas of those fires.

What alerts are not heeded by the residents not wanting to give up on there properties.

So for any sheltering in place you need an underground shelter that can be sealed with supplies to out last the burning above.
The source of long term power for days is the issue when you can not have any vents to the open sky to protect what oxygen you have within the shelter. Sure that power will be at a minimum of a days time while the fire rages overhead with the shelter being your home long after its burnt out.

So much like any other weather caused damage are we looking to mandate a regulation that means every home must have an underground shelter as was done for the future homes in flood zones for the new constructions that follow being built on stilts.

What other things must we have if its going to work for all?
Not talking about the structure or its contents as its got to be affordable as that is a condition of the owner and number of occupants..

I think one item would be the ability to communicate when the event occurs while still secluded from others inside the shelter. With the ability to display alerts so as to be able to know when its clear.

I am not sure that we could make a camera system to monitor the surroundings from the outside of the shelter but that would also be something to work towards. Maybe work done on camera's for venus would apply...

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#3 2020-09-13 18:38:31

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,746

Re: Business Opportunity Fire Shelter

For SpaceNut re #2

Thank you for picking up on this topic and giving it a boost.

Your connection to the challenge of surviving on Venus really strikes a chord for me!  Analog just finished publishing a three part series focused on Venus.  The author attempted to deal with the challenges of keeping a living volume cool enough for humans despite the lead-melting temperatures outside the (in this case mobile) habitat.

One advantage that a fire shelter for Earth would have is the heat sink capability of the crust of the Earth. 

Your observation about the need for communication with the outside world is helpful.  Radio is a possibility, because it should be possible to maintain radio communication as long as the antenna does not melt if it is outside.  However, submarines use radio below the surface, with the caveat that the frequencies that allow that are quite low.

If humans insist on living in fire susceptible regions, it seems to me reasonable to invest in shelters capable of maintaining a comfortable environment for up to a week.  I thought of the Mars living challenge as a good model for what would be needed, although the temperature extremes are closer to Venus, as you've pointed out.

Edit#1: An option is to set up a camera inside a vacuum jar, to protect the camera from convection heat.  Infrared radiation would still enter the vacuum jar (if it is made of glass).

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-13 18:40:51)

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#4 2020-09-13 18:58:17

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Business Opportunity Fire Shelter

The antenna wire would have its insulation melt with the temperatures of a fire.

That means any thing that feeds from a habitat space needs to have ceramic / glass insulators to allow a seal to be maintained for the electrical connection to remain isolated from each other to the device.

If we have a deep well source of water we could liquid cool any device in a glass chamber from the heat so long as there is not a great deal of internal pressure so as to keep a seal as it gets hotter. This might even be the homes normal water source if its clear of the burning site materials.

So we will want a reliable power source that does not burn or out gas as the power is used with in the shelter area as we have limited oxygen and ability to keep the air breathable from co2 build up over time once we are hunkering down until the fire passes.

If its burning power we could use a propane water heater power exhaust vent to reach above and out of the shelter space. Of course oxygen could be filters via a water bubbler system to clean the hot external air for such use.

.

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#5 2020-09-13 19:43:47

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,746

Re: Business Opportunity Fire Shelter

For SpaceNut re #4 (and topic in general)

It seems to me this topic could attract some serious thought, because of the similarity between the needs of a fire shelter for a family, and the needs of a Mars shelter for a family.

The fire shelter needs to keep heat out, and the Mars shelter needs to keep heat in.

The fire shelter needs to clean and rejuvenate the air, and the Mars shelter needs to do the same.

The Mars shelter is not going to be able to burn fossil fuel (without a supply of oxygen) and I think it makes sense (since we are betting people's lives) to avoid drawing air in from outside during the emergency, which could mean for several days.

In other words, as we think about the needs of both shelters, we have similar requirements.

In RobertDyck's topic recently, there was a brief mention of facilities for personal hygiene on the Large Ship.  These facilities would be a major step up from what we might take with us for a camping trip.

Facilities for cooking are going to be very similar between the fire shelter and the Mars shelter.

There is need for refrigeration.  That will be MUCH easier for the Mars shelter, because Mars is a terrific heat sink.  The fire shelter is going to have to reach some distance into the Earth to gain access to cool mass.   Your suggestion of a deep well source is interesting, but it is likely to be hard to come by in hot dry climates.  some thought needs to be given to solving that problem on Earth.

Hopefully this topic will draw in some of the talent available in the forum.

I think we should set the requirement for the design to sustain a family of four with two pets for a week, while the outside is hot enough to melt glass.

The melted glass suggestion comes from a news report of what a home owner found when he returned to his property.

(th)

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#6 2020-09-13 20:00:08

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Business Opportunity Fire Shelter

For mars we are planning on using Moxie so this would be a designers use of that same device to make oxygen from co2 from the outside as well as an air cleaning system for the shelter space as well.

Most likely the entrance to the underground shelter would be performed with a double door entry method possibly made from fire rated steel doors a gap and with another set from them to get distance from the first to make the chamber seal.

Maybe something like a do it yourself powerwall from Musk's design …powerwall-featured.png?w=800

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#7 2020-09-14 06:08:45

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,746

Re: Business Opportunity Fire Shelter

For SpaceNut re #6

Your idea of double doors for the fire shelter matches up nicely with the double door requirement for the Mars shelter.

Design of the doors would (presumably) differ somewhat based upon the differences of the environments, but the principle seems (to me at least) similar.

I asked Google about fire temperatures on the ground, and got this:

https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/ … 30005.html

High temperatures and strong winds continue to stoke wildfires raging across California, scorching more than 2.5 million acres statewide, according to CAL Fire.

It’s so hot that NASA is able to detect the surface temperatures around the fires from a space station, the agency said in a news release.

Some areas have reached a blistering 375 degrees Fahrenheit, NASA’s images show.

NASA’s ECOsystem Spaceborne Thermal Radiometer Experiment on Space Station (ECOSTRESS) captured photos from five active wildfires burning in Southern California on Sunday, according to the release. There are 28 major wildfires burning across the state as of Wednesday, CAL Fire reports.

NASA posted images of the El Dorado Fire, which has burned 12,610 acres in San Bernardino County, and the Valley Fire, which has burned 17,665 acres in San Diego County, according to CAL Fire. NASA’s images showed surface areas around the El Dorado fire were greater than 375 degrees and surface temperatures around the Valley Fire were greater than 370 degrees.

California Wildfires newsletter

Read more here: https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/ … rylink=cpy

In both situations, the shelter can be (and most likely would be) set under ground, or covered with a layer of regolith.  For Mars that layer would be there for radiation protection, and to help to keep the pressure inside the shelter from escaping.

On Earth, the protection would be from the hot gases.

I am thinking of a manufactured component for the people, similar to a recreational vehicle, and concrete to enclose it, with a layer of earth on top and around the sides.

Google: what does NASA moxie do?

The Mars Oxygen In-Situ Resource Utilization Experiment is better known as MOXIE. NASA is preparing for human exploration of Mars, and MOXIE will demonstrate a way that future explorers might produce oxygen from the Martian atmosphere for propellant and for breathing.
Main Job: To produce oxygen from the Martian ...
Operation Time: Approximately one hour of ox...
Oxygen Production Rate: Up to 10 grams per h...
Weight: 37.7 pounds on Earth, 14.14 pounds on ...

MOXIE - NASA's Mars Exploration Program

For SpaceNut (or any other NewMars contributor) ... is there a way to know what the consumption of oxygen is for a human in an enclosed space?

I'm sure that information must be known to the molecule for space travel.

The oxygen processor, whatever it is, needs to be sized to handle the expected number of people and creatures to be protected.

Power is an interesting question.   Batteries could be (and most likely would be) an important component of the system, for initial startup for one thing. Those would need to be tested and checked periodically.  A typical home owner is not savvy or detail oriented enough to attend to that, so an annual maintenance with a regulated company would seem advisable.  The insurance companies could help to "encourage" shelter readiness on Earth.  On Mars, the shelters will always be online and in use.

On Mars, the need for in-depth maintenance services is present from the first landing.

(th)

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#8 2020-09-14 16:47:22

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Business Opportunity Fire Shelter

The Moxie and only Moxie topic is the test scale size unit going to mars on the unmanned mission for 2020 launch. It is for taking in co2 and creating oxygen from the mars atmosphere but it could also be part of the air cleaning unit inside of the habitat space for removing the co2 to maintain the levels of oxygen that we need while reducing the co2 in the area we are in.

The Mars Oxygen ISRU Experiment (MOXIE) test in the
NASA Mars Perseverance rover launched Thursday, July 30, 2020

Batteries need to be capable of long term storage and to not out gas hydrogen into the space as that will rise the risk of for fire internally within the habitat space.

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#9 2020-09-14 17:43:03

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,746

Re: Business Opportunity Fire Shelter

For SpaceNut re #8 and topic ...

Thanks for thinking about the hazards that would face persons in either shelter!

I asked Google for help, and among many citations it found this summary of experience with petrol burning stoves on antarctic expeditions:
https://www.wemjournal.org/article/S095 … 1090-1/pdf

There are several anecdotes that show how dangerous carbon monoxide poisoning was (and is).   

What I take from that report, and from general familiarity with the risks, is that it would be better to plan ahead for an all-electric environment.

My guess is that the ISS is way ahead of the game already. 

Here's a quick snippet from Google on that subject:

Astronauts heat them up in an oven or add water before chowing down with a fork straight out of the package. The space station doesn't have refrigerators or freezers to keep food fresh, so there's no such thing as leftovers.Dec 15, 2017

Everything You Never Thought to Ask About Astronaut Food ...
www.theatlantic.com › science › archive › 2017/12 › astr...

That would be an ** electric ** oven, of course.

Another snippet from Google:

ISS will contain more than one oven when it is fully operational. ... Both are convection/conduction ovens rather than microwave. Later stages of ISS may have a microwave oven, but that is not finalized, according to Kloeris.Nov 28, 2000

Far-out Housekeeping on the ISS | Science Mission Directorate

It seems to me the ISS model is well wroth study for both RobertDyck's Large Ship, and Mars habitats.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-14 17:43:38)

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#10 2020-12-16 11:05:31

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Business Opportunity Fire Shelter

bump
Shelter creation on mars is about giving roots to a growing community without bringing it with you to mars.
Many of the features needed for an earth protection system would be needed for long term use on a mars surface while its for a temporary protection here on earth for a few days until the hazardous condition passes.

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#11 2021-11-23 14:41:21

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Business Opportunity Fire Shelter

One might not think about needing a fire shelter while hiking but with the number of fires this last year it surely was needed as indicated in this article.
They set out to hike America’s three longest trails in less than a year. What could go wrong?

These trail maps of the three in the US are something new to me since I have only heard of this one.

?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fe5%2Ff6%2F04311abc44c086dfedcc99aab763%2Fappalachian-trail-map.jpg


?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F68%2Fc9%2F49530ba74ec984ef1c1f72bac8b5%2Fcontinental-divide-trail.jpg


?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F84%2F81%2Feae782c649e485df222e27999699%2Fpacific-crest-trail-map.jpg

It reminds me that going to mars will not be easy even when well prepared.

So how would we make a shelter that can be carried would be the question for hikers?

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