Why do we have Poverty in America

SpaceNut · 2020-08-20 19:21:55

Push that requested subject back into high school as you would learn to not work these jobs at all....

kbd512 · 2020-08-20 20:47:05

SpaceNut,

No, seriously. Democrats are constantly telling Republicans how much better their ideas are, so why is that they can't figure out that people are going to eat far fewer $10 burgers than $5 burgers?

I think it's a fair question. Please tell me why it is that you think the business isn't going to raise the price of the burgers, which leads to less business if the customers can't afford to pay, or reduce the number of employees to cover increasing costs of doing business, or simply fold if they're not able to do take either of those other courses of action.

For $15/hr, do I get a professional burger flipper who gets my order correct at least 90% of the time?

If I received better service, then I might be willing to pay more anyway, though even then there are limits to how much I can afford to pay with any regularity.

SpaceNut · 2020-08-21 20:01:29

The Salary You Need To Afford Rent in Every State which to afford rent depends a lot on where you live.

median rent for single-family residences in every state, and calculated the monthly and yearly income needed to have monthly rent consume 30% or less of the total income to determine the salary you’ll need to afford rent.

New Hampshire
Median rent: $1,748
Monthly income needed: $5,827
Annual income needed: $69,920
If you earn the average income in this New England state — $51,040 — you’ll be making $18,880 less than what you would need to afford rent.

30% of $69,920 = $20.975 of income / 12 = $1,748

160 hr at $10.93 after taxation is required to pay 100% of wage towards rent....

Texas
Median rent: $1,455
Monthly income needed: $4,850
Annual income needed: $58,200
The average income in Texas is $48,700, which is $9,500 less than what you would need to afford rent

kbd512 · 2020-08-21 20:31:36

SpaceNut,

The apartments around where I live in Houston don't cost that much to rent. Cut that figure in half and that's what reality-based bachelor housing looks like for a reasonably nice apartment in a reasonably nice neighborhood. You can certainly get even cheaper housing, but I think there are limits to what kind of neighbors you want. We've been through this before. I don't know where these people are getting their numbers from, but you keep posting figures associated with luxury apartments, town homes, or actual homes with yards and brick walls surrounding them. For $1,500 a month (mortgage payment, utilities, HOA fees), you can have a 2,500ft^2 house that was built in the last 10 years or less.

People who flip burgers for a living do not require a 4 bedroom house in a gated community. If you want more money, then you need to contribute more to society than flipping burgers. That's the kind of job you have in college to gain work experience. There's nothing wrong with flipping burgers and it's honorable work, but unless you're the manager, you need to eventually take on more responsibility. That's how a merit-based system works. I didn't earn top dollar cleaning heads of chipping paint or swabbing decks for the Navy, either, but I had 3 squares a day and a roof over my head while I learned a trade. I had to sleep in an area roughly the size of my house with 100 of my closest friends, but you get what you can get when you're 17 and need a job.

If you're complaining about why there aren't more better paying jobs, then why not ask your Democrat politicians why they signed so many bills to send our jobs overseas to places like China?

tahanson43206 · 2020-08-22 11:19:51

This is for SpaceNut ... it is a follow up to an earlier report in this topic, of plans by a local elected official to try to organize a job fair using virtual meeting technology.

Your reaction was to imagine all the possible downsides that might occur.

Today an update arrived, with answers to at least ** one ** of your concerns. Apparently the politician has secured commitments to offer real jobs to real people in the 2000 range.

I have great news. Preparations for my 10th Annual Job Fair are underway, and already, participating employers tell me that they have over 2,000 positions that they are seeking to fill. More companies are signing up every day, and I'm confident that this year's virtual job fair will help many people in the (...) District make meaningful connections with potential employers.
In case you missed it, this year's Job Fair is different from past events as we continue to combat the coronavirus. We are going virtual.
This online experience will offer the same opportunities of a traditional job fair from any internet-connected device. You will have the chance to meet with prospective employers live via video chat. It is free to participate. More information will be coming soon. To make sure you don’t miss any of the updates, click here to sign up for the mailing list.
2020 VIRTUAL JOB FAIR
DATE: Tuesday, September 8, 2020
FOR MORE INFORMATION CALL ANY OF MY DISTRICT OFFICES OR VISIT MY WEBSITE BY CLICKING HERE.

This could be a model for other communities around the US (and perhaps elsewhere).

I have obscured the identifying information because my intent here is to show a model, rather than to call attention to an individual.

To be specific, each NewMars forum reader who lives in the US has a set of elected politicians who might be interested in trying this idea.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-08-22 11:22:50)

SpaceNut · 2020-08-22 20:17:01

We have quite a few signs wanting employees but its all part time and service oriented jobs that do not have consistent day to day hours...this is just one of the reason we are still not doing better.

Getting out of China will cost U.S. and European firms $1 trillion, says Bank of America. over 80% of global sectors experienced supply chain disruptions during the pandemic, prompting three-quarters to widen the scope of their re-shoring plans.

Sure we can "create tax credits for companies that bring jobs from China back to America" but that was the problem to begin with is taxation and a drive to greater profits was why the moved out in the first place.

The US needs lots of road and bridge repairs but the states and towns to which they reside in can not afford the projects and would require money from the government to make them happen.

This goes with the housing numbers question Are You Middle-Class? Use This Calculator to Find Out

To find out your status, go to the calculator page at the Pew website. You’ll be asked to enter a few basic details, including your:
State and metro area
Income before taxes
Household size
Education
Age
Race/ethnicity
Marital status

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 … dle-class/

kbd512 · 2020-08-23 12:58:27

One of the questions I'd ask myself, if I was at all interested in the general utility of the outcome to the preservation of civilized society, is whether or not I'm after equality of opportunity or equality of outcome. I think the former is laudable / supported by most people who ascribe to egalitarian thinking (good behavior should be rewarded, rather than simply punishing bad behavior, which is reasonably easy to define using the Golden Rule) / realistically achievable to some extent. If you're after the latter, however, then the only way to achieve that is by making everyone equally poor and ignorant. To ensure equality of outcome, we have to cater to the least intelligent and least productive members of our society. No society has fared well by attempting to ensure equality of outcome. If the mere possibility of success where others have failed is intolerable to the authoritarian psyche, then we'll inevitably suffer societal decline.

The other members of society rightfully expect that you contribute something to the rest of society commensurate with the incentive or reward for doing so. If the UAW, for example, can't form their own automotive manufacturing company with all of their membership's know-how and combined ability to contribute or borrow money to start their own business venture, then that speaks volumes to their ability to self-organize for the purpose of producing something that other people value. What good is organization if it doesn't produce anything of utility to the rest of society?

This isn't a simple matter of money or education, either. When people like Carnegie started their businesses, they didn't have a small fraction of the education or money that so many in our society enjoy today. Carnegie had a 6th grade education and scarcely a penny to his name, but somehow managed to become one of the wealthiest people in human history up to that point. Nobody "gets lucky" thousands of times in a row. He did what so many others, irrespective of wealth and education, were provably incapable of doing, because all those other people who worked for him didn't build wildly successful steel production business, did they? Should everyone at Carnegie Steel be paid exactly the same amount for varying contributions to the company? If so, why? Why couldn't Johnson Steel or Smith Steel do what Carnegie Steel did? If Johnson or Smith wanted everyone in the company to be paid exactly the same, then why not go off and start their own steel production businesses to make their point? The simple explanation is that they're not actually competent to do that, even if Johnson and Smith both have college degrees to put against Carnegie's grammar school education. That begs the question of what we actually mean by competence. What does an education make you competent to actually do? This should not be construed to mean I don't value education. Carnegie certainly had a lot of educated and/or skilled people working for him, but that doesn't make all of those people more competent than Carnegie to start their own steel production businesses. If it did, then why didn't they? The steel production business started by Carnegie is keeping all of them employed and putting food on the table, that's why. They want reward without risk.

If Carnegie doesn't think a janitor who started yesterday rates the same wage as an accountant or mill manager or a metallurgist who's been with the company for 10 years, then what qualifies this new janitor to dictate his wages to Carnegie or to question Carnegie's competence to run his business? Why would a mill manager want to be responsible for hundreds of people working for him if he's going to make the same wage as a first-day janitor? Can you swap the decision making capabilities of the janitor with that mill manager who has 10 years of experience working with molten metal, without consequence? Of course not, and I think everyone who isn't being deliberately obtuse instinctively knows that. There's no such thing as equal experience, equal judgement, equal education, or equal intelligence. Experience is hard-won. That's why employers value experience so much.

There must be something beyond chanting / carrying signs / mostly saying hooray for our side / making demands without concessions that is required to run a successful business. People making demands without offering anything more than what they're already offering are being unreasonable, in my opinion.

Naturally, the people espousing the zero-sum ideology don't have any valid counter to those points. Sure, they may complain incessantly, refuse to work, or throw tantrums, but you'll never see them start their own businesses to prove to everyone else that their ideas will produce successful business ventures. They're looking for increased reward without increased responsibility. That's not how it works, even if they get their way. It's not hard to figure out why, either. They want to remove the incentives to becoming more successful and then expect that a good number of people, but not them, will do the extra work required for no benefit to themselves. The socialists and communists actively punish the go-getters, so there's even less incentive to do anything beyond the bare minimum. While a few people might be that altruistic, most aren't, the people who are that altruistic are punished, and the people espousing those ideas most definitely aren't altruistic.

So, for these people who demand increased wages, what are you offering in return for those increased wages?

Will you be more productive or will you work extra hours, if required?

Will you help manage the business by assuming extra responsibilities?

There's no such thing as something for nothing, whether we're talking about basic physics or business, so when you demand increased pay, what are you offering in return?

Assume both parties offer something in exchange and they strike a deal, which would be great. Now, what of the employees who are no longer required thanks to the increased productivity of the remaining employees?

SpaceNut · 2020-08-24 07:31:15

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersa … &ocid=iehp

SpaceNut · 2020-08-24 18:01:49

The thought of high rent is not the only thing that is out of line as I started to look at recumbent pedal power and got a bit of sticker shock as these are way off
https://bicycleman.com/recumbent-price-list/

tahanson43206 · 2020-08-24 18:57:26

For SpaceNut ...

Best wishes for success in persuading the family buggy to return to reliable starts and trouble free road rambles.

However, by any chance could there be a recumbent available used in your area? I ask because folks use those for a while and then tire of them, or life changes lead to their availability.

I check New Hampshire Craig's List and found this:

I got tired of looking after viewing a couple hundred bikes. The above was the only recumbent.

There might be more.

Bedford is the location of the bike in the image. Is that a long way from you?

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-08-24 18:58:18)

SpaceNut · 2020-08-25 23:11:16

Contradicting that the idea that one requires higher education for a good paying job.
Highest-paying jobs with no formal education requirements

There’s a direct correlation between education and income. The median weekly wage for someone without a high school diploma is less than $600, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), while those with a doctoral degree earn $1,883. Every degree level up the scale from high school diploma to a PhD comes with a larger median salary, but there are plenty of jobs out there with no educational barriers.
The average annual wage for all workers in the United States is $53,490.

For the near 100 slides with jobs with wages its not until you get to the #6 slide that you begin to earn a wage above the average...
Most of the wages are half of the average.

tahanson43206 · 2020-08-26 07:21:33

For SpaceNut primarily, and on the topic in general, but following up on #538

A successful capitalist enterprise will invest in its workers. Investment I'm talking about is above and beyond wages, which are usually just sufficient to induce the worker to join the enterprise. Every organization of any size I've worked for has invested in the staff, although (just from observation) I would note that investment is likely in the activities within the company that are in need of growth, and it is cheaper to help staff to improve performance than to compete for new workers with the needed skills.

I'd like to extend this idea a bit to nation states. If we allow ourselves to think of nation states as corporations, we can allow ourselves to understand why some nation states invest in the education of their young, without subjecting them to the burden of loans. My understanding of the logic is that an investment in education for a young citizen pays back in increased earnings, and the taxable income generated.

Thus, the logic of some nation states that require families to pay for education of the young seems antiquated to me. Obviously the nation states who invest heavily in education of the young will surpass the performance of nation states who do not.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-09-14 16:05:47

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersa … &ocid=iehp

While employees can work remotely on a permanent basis, they could face an 18% pay cut for moving to a city like Denver, Bloomberg reports as its about the cost of living decision about moving away to earn less when its still gives you a raise when the numbers are worked out.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/savingan … &ocid=iehp

If you have retired then you are not really looking for full time employment or looking to be receive enticing perks like retirement plans and health insurance, gig workers and others with part-time hours may be solely responsible for their own savings and benefits. But in the same breath you are not looking for a work schedule that goes from nothing to near overtime of flexing hours from day to night either as you are just looking for the means to supplement your income.

SpaceNut · 2020-09-17 18:08:15

as we go through this rough time of being unemployed, not getting any help or aid is the debt collectors will still call.
How long can a debt collector pursue old debt?

tahanson43206 · 2020-09-17 18:16:30

For SpaceNut re this topic ....

Since this ** is ** your topic (Created 2017-12-10 21:58:06), I feel free to ask you a question that will set some members into a state of consternation.

What do you think of employing millions of US Citizens in WPA projects? In the current age, we don't need pick and shovel activities. The infrastructure is crumbling all over the nation. With modern machinery, there might be a small amount of pick and shovel work, but most would be at a higher level, and therefore more satisfying to the workers.

I'd prefer that kind of solution to just giving out checks to out-of-work persons, much as I appreciate the boost to my own very tight budget.

So! What do you think?

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-17 18:17:30)

SpaceNut · 2020-09-17 18:33:19

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Pro … nistration

https://www.history.com/topics/great-de … nistration

https://money.howstuffworks.com/12-wpa- … -exist.htm

Concluding that a national relief program was no longer needed, Roosevelt directed the Federal Works Administrator to end the WPA in a letter December 4, 1942.

tahanson43206 · 2020-09-18 12:51:50

For SpaceNut re #543

Thanks for the history links! And thanks for the reminder that a world war ended the need for the WPA.

My question was to you, to think about doing something similar in the US in ** today's ** world, in which massive disruption of the economy is under way.

That said, thanks for considering the question.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-09-18 12:53:49

Here is an announcement of possible job opportunities in England, in years ahead.

The development could create hundreds of jobs in a boost to Cornwall, which is grappling with a rapid increase in unemployment. The area was once known for its mining industry but the last tin mine closed in 1998. Efforts are under way to restart it following a rise in the global price of tin.
This is from the article at the link:
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/lit … 34664.html
I am mildly surprised that Lithium would have been found upwelling from under the surface in England.
(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-09-18 16:39:08

Most states have unemployment offices that are meant to aid the under employed, the unemployed but they are not geared to aid the homeless or the disabled to mentally ill which are most likely not working whether by choice. They only provide the tools and not a job or the interviews to get the foot in the door.

So what was done in the pandemic really was not the right type of help but a bandaid until it had rolled past but its taking longer than they gave help for.
Under the Aug. 8 edict, the federal government will give unemployed workers an extra $300 in weekly payments. Trump allocated $44 billion to cover the sweetened aid, using money from the Disaster Relief Fund, which is managed by the Federal Emergency Management Agency. It partially restored the $600-a-week benefit that expired at the end of July.

For the next 6 months but many states do not have the money to continue the paying out of these funds.

Even the business that you might be looking to work for have tools that give them aid for hiring specific groups. This also include tax breaks for them as well.

What is the Work Opportunity Tax Credit (WOTC) Program?
IRS tax page
US department of Labor information

2011 U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission
Out of Work? Out of Luck

SpaceNut · 2020-10-07 20:07:00

There indeed has been an increase but The pandemic could push 150 million more people worldwide into 'extreme poverty'

An additional 88 to 115 million people could be pushed into extreme poverty, defined as living on less than $1.90 a day, in 2020 because of the pandemic and resulting economic recession, according to a report from the World Bank released Wednesday.
That estimate is up sharply from the bank's May report, when it projected that an additional 60 million people would likely be pushed into extreme poverty in 2020.

kbd512 · 2020-10-07 21:01:02

SpaceNut,

The pandemic isn't pushing people into poverty. Governments hellbent on seizing more power by preventing economic activity from continuing, hurting their own people in the process, are the ones have driven their people into extreme poverty.

tahanson43206 · 2020-10-08 07:12:57

For kbd512 re #548

The Chinese seem to have the optimum balance between autocracy and freedom to insure economic success. They quashed the virus quickly by using the tools of their authoritarian system of government, and then unleashed the power of capitalism to restore economic activity equally quickly.

A responsibility of ** any ** government is to protect the people from harm, whether foreign or domestic.

Economic activity in wartime takes a back seat to the greater need to focus on the war effort.

I'm going to take a leap of faith here .... In World War II the United States converted economic activity to build up the war effort, and the economic woes then facing the population were largely eliminated.

Surely there was a way that economic activity suitable for a time before a deadly contagion arrived could have been converted rapidly and efficiently to sustain the well being of the population.

Can you think of how that might have been done?

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-10-08 18:30:43

Pushing people into poverty is Another 840,000 American workers applied for unemployment benefits last week
Claims have come in between 800,000 and 900,000 for the six consecutive weeks, a sign that progress in the labor market has stalled somewhat amid closed schools, delayed reopening's, and the reposition of restrictions in some parts of the economy.

Not all state give benefits for the same terms as others let alone at the same income levels. Most states' unemployment benefits cover 26 weeks; the CARES Act extended this period by 13 weeks, giving most people a total of 39 weeks of coverage. The grey area is how we interrupt the job loss. Unemployment Insurance (UI) benefits are available to individuals who lost their jobs through no fault of their own.

kbd512 · 2020-10-08 20:53:54

tahanson43206,

The Chinese either released the virus from a lab or permitted the spread of the virus to begin with and their people live in one of the most polluted places on planet Earth. Either way, that virus was never native to Wuhan and science has yet to determine how it crossed the species barrier. A professional opinion without evidence is just an opinion. The most probable explanation, since they still can't find the species that permitted it to infect humans, unlike all other corona viruses that made the jump in the past, is that they modified it in a lab through "selective breeding", if you will, and accidentally released it. It's not a weapon, so far as I can tell, and was never intended to be a weapon, unlike what that Chinese virologist who defected to America has claimed. Either this virus was infecting animals but not killing any great numbers of them from the time it was first collected in that cave in northern China 8 years ago, over a thousand kilometers from Wuhan, when it was transported back to Wuhan by Dr Shi Zhengli, or they were messing with it in the lab there as part of their universal corona virus vaccination program. Dr Zhengli said they monitor the area around WIV for new corona viruses, but somehow one of the world's most accomplished virologists totally missed something mere meters from her workplace. Rather than protecting their people from harm, their communist government very likely permitted the conditions that caused significant harm to people who don't even live there.

SpaceNut · 2020-10-09 16:15:20

We clearly have too peas in a pod with Pelosi and with McConnel but even when bills are sent the senate are stone walling as McConnell said he hasn't visited the White House in over 2 months because he doesn't think Trump's COVID-19 protocols are safe instead opted to speak with President Donald Trump by phone.

With the Sept. 26 event at the Rose Garden being a super spreader event...with no Chinese involvement just Americans that should know better....
How Much Would Trump’s Coronavirus Treatment Cost Taxpayers?

While Trump doesn’t have to worry about paying for his coronavirus treatment (the federal government does that) average American citizens do — and the cost is over $60,000. Here’s a breakdown of the costs involved in Trump’s coronavirus treatment.

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#526 2020-08-20 19:21:55

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#527 2020-08-20 20:47:05

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#528 2020-08-21 20:01:29

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#529 2020-08-21 20:31:36

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#530 2020-08-22 11:19:51

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#531 2020-08-22 20:17:01

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#532 2020-08-23 12:58:27

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#533 2020-08-24 07:31:15

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#534 2020-08-24 18:01:49

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#535 2020-08-24 18:57:26

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#536 2020-08-25 23:11:16

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#537 2020-08-26 07:21:33

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#538 2020-09-14 16:05:47

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#539 2020-09-17 18:08:15

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#540 2020-09-17 18:16:30

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#541 2020-09-17 18:33:19

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#542 2020-09-18 12:51:50

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#543 2020-09-18 12:53:49

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#544 2020-09-18 16:39:08

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#545 2020-10-07 20:07:00

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#546 2020-10-07 21:01:02

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#547 2020-10-08 07:12:57

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#548 2020-10-08 18:30:43

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#549 2020-10-08 20:53:54

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

#550 2020-10-09 16:15:20

Re: Why do we have Poverty in America

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