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#51 2018-12-19 16:40:59

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,455

Re: Atmospheric Separations

Void,

That's the same type of technology we're using to try to find better materials for batteries.  It's going to be a requirement moving forward, as we can't "discover by chance" that a particular type of material or chemical process is suitable for a particular application.  We need a computer knowledge base that iteratively tests all the possibilities and spits out the material or process solution that's optimal for solving a specific problem.

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#52 2020-05-23 10:19:48

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Atmospheric Separations

KBD512,

Hope all is headed in the best direction per your concerns.

I am planning to work with this topic a bit more, as I have some notions to hope to further it.

This may take a number of posts.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#53 2020-05-23 10:38:29

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Atmospheric Separations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adsorption

This is going to be important, although I do not entirely dismiss Absorption.

I am interested in seeking out Martian "Freebies", or "Cheapies', should it be possible to engage them with adaptations and inventions.

I may be in for additional education as I march out into the thin ice of my assumptions, my notions that I understand sufficiently to be able to do something useful.  We will discover the bounds if that presumed reality.

So, in my guessing, I am supposing that solar panels can do more than generate electricity.  This may be true for both Mars and Earth.

Starting with the relatively simple, I hope to engage adsorption by heating and cooling substances discovered to be appropriate to desires and needs, by bonding such adsorption substances to the back sides of solar panels.  At the equator, we should expect large temperature fluctuations, and elsewhere some of that as well.  That is presumed by me to allow atmospheric separations, hoping to achieve a chemistry advantage.

That is not to say I will not attempt to later expand the scope of methods.

Last edited by Void (2020-05-23 10:59:05)


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#54 2020-05-23 10:55:44

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Atmospheric Separations

I am going to attempt to attach a library of related information, as I am just now feeling I want to get out for a walk in the sun.

Be warned, that I will very likely "Prune" or add to this material later, so if you post in reply prematurely, it may result in some odd back and fourth communications.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 9417305745

https://phys.org/news/2020-03-low-cost- … tures.html

This one apparently uses membranes, perhaps not adsorption, but so what?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 131319.htm

This one could be a thing I have wanted for some time:
https://technology.nasa.gov/patent/LEW-TOPS-85
Quote:

Pressurized Oxygen via Solid Oxide Electrolysis
Small, simple device produces pure, dry, pressurized oxygen

Innovators at NASA's Glenn Research Center have developed a method for producing pure high-pressure oxygen via an electrochemical pumping process through a solid oxide electrolysis (SOE) cell stack. Glenn's device can either concentrate the oxygen in the ambient atmosphere or extract the oxygen via the chemical reduction of carbon dioxide, water, or any combination of these substances. This solid-state device does not use any moving parts or any extra separation processes to purify the delivered oxygen. Instead, Glenn's technology relies on a multi-stage stack design and an SOE process that includes an oxygen-ion-conducting ceramic membrane to generate high-pressure oxygen within a compact, noiseless device. This process has great potential for use in industrial, medical, and recreational applications.

Benefits

Simple: Eliminates pumps and rotary compressors and does not require compression sealing
Green: Uses only air, water, or carbon dioxide to generate pure oxygen
Reliable: Contains no moving parts, increasing reliability and requiring minimum maintenance
Compact: Reduces device mass and volume compared to current oxygen-generation devices
Stable: Avoids large pressure changes across individual cells
Applications
Refining systems (e.g., fluid catalytic cracking regenerators)
Syngas generation for gas to liquids (GTL) plants
Industrial processes (e.g., smelting iron)
Specialized medical oxygen systems
The Technology
Originally conceived as a method to generate pressurized pure oxygen for extravehicular activity (EVA) suits worn on the International Space Station, Glenn's technology represents a significant breakthrough. The generator is an all-solid-state device that separates oxygen from air, water, or carbon dioxide and electrochemically pumps it to a high pressure in a multi-stage process. Glenn's design features a solid oxide electrolysis (SOE) stack, based on bi-supported cell design, that is structurally supported by two electrode layers. Sandwiched between the cathode and anode sides is an oxygen-ion conducting solid-state electrolyte membrane, made of yttria-stabilized zirconia (YSZ). These membranes form the individual SOE cells within the stack, and each cell carries out a single stage of the multi-stage process, with each stage incrementally pressurizing the oxygen. A voltage (1.5 to 2 volts) is applied across the cell, and the air or other input is supplied to the cathode side, where the oxygen dissociates into oxygen ions. The YSZ membrane will conduct only the oxygen ions, producing pure, dry oxygen. The entire stack is wrapped in a glass ceramic seal, providing a pressure vessel for the device.

Glenn's novel stack design allows hermetic sealing and does not require a compression sealing mechanism or other spring-loaded hardware. Each cell is wired in parallel so the voltage can be controlled across each cell to avoid electrochemical reduction of the electrolyte. In addition, each cell is electrically insulated from other cells in the stack using a non-electronically conducting, ceramic-woven cloth YSZ layer. Because Glenn's process resists fouling from water containing impurities or other debris, it does not require a high-purity water source, as do other water electrolysis technologies. The oxygen product is also sterile for medical applications because of the high temperature (in excess of 600°C) at which the process operates.

While this last one only would use electricity from a power source, the hope that it can draw Oxygen from the atmospheres of Mars or Earth suggests that it would not use as much power for that as it would to get it from water and CO2.  (That is my assumption).

Much CO2 could be eliminated from the Earths atmosphere, in my opinion, if we could burn chemical fuels in a gas mixture, with an upgraded content of Oxygen.  That is my suspicion at least.

And for Mars, if we could get Oxygen directly from the tiny amount found in the atmosphere of Mars, that could not be something we would be sad about.  But Adsorption may play a role in that.  Perhaps a multistage, beneficiation of the content of Oxygen, in the final product.

Of course we might care to separate Nitrogen and Argon as well.

I am going to add a couple more things that might seem unrelated, but that I think might be includable into an array of methods, to get favors from Mars, but tricks.
https://phys.org/news/2019-03-storage-h … anger.html
The boring company comes to mind.  Mars is going to be harder to manage than Earth, most likely.

Uranium? Maybe Thorium????
https://phys.org/news/2020-01-team-elec … ially.html
Quote:

Team develops an electrochemical method for extracting uranium, and potentially other metal ions, from solution

Potentially from Earth sea water, and I am hoping from Martian brines.

Brines on Mars:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/1 … rs_brines/
I suspect that more stable brines will exist in the undergrounds of Mars, maybe even near or at the equator.  Not proven though.


Taking a break, for a walk.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-05-23 11:34:59)


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#55 2020-05-23 17:04:02

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Atmospheric Separations

Let me define better, what I want.

I want vibrations, and the manipulation of substances, in such a way as benefit, entities that can manipulate objects on Mars and else....In our solar system or I suppose in a deep distance even beyond that.  So, when I think I see something that just maybe head in that direction, I see it as a "Shiny Object", worth looking into and expending a degree of effort for.

Where do the vibrations come from, and where do you put them?

Those who want to use greenhouse gasses on Mars, simply want to retain some of them in the atmosphere of Mars to raise the temperature.

Other than that if you could darken the polar ice caps, you might reduce the reflection of vibration into and beyond the sky of Mars, with the intention of raising the temperatures locally, to release greenhouse gasses to retain vibrations globally on Mars.

We might hope to extract or release additional vibrations in Martian orbit by various means, and try to deploy them to the Martian surface, hoping to change the climate situation on Mars.

-Mirrors in orbit.
-Flashing nuclear bombs in orbit. (Sir)
-Orbital power stations, where microwave or laser transfers of vibrations (Energy), could be imposed onto the surface of Mars.

And this is where I think to depart from the "Red Mars/Green Mars/Blue Mars" notion of the future of Mars.

For whatever reason, we have some people who are entirely locked into the story, that the atmosphere of Mars, evaporated, was flung from the planet, as the magnetic field dissipated.

But, projecting for an Earth-Like planet into it's future, if we had it out at the orbit of Mars, according to the teachings I have had, it would manage to have open ocean water.  I would expect it to be very much more glaciated, at the locations of cold, high altitudes, and depending on the tilt of the planet, towards the poles or maybe else towards the equator.

I suppose that if that Earth sized planets magnetic field were to fail, then we might think that some atmosphere would go off into space.  If so, then that would further glaciate the planet.

But a theory of atmosphere, is that volcanism is balanced against capture of atmosphere to sediments, per flowing water and the sediments in that flowing water.

So, I am willing to be open minded, and suppose that the magnetic field of Mars failed and was responsible for reducing the atmosphere volume for Mars.  But I also insist that under those conditions, if water could still flow, then the atmosphere would further be captured into sediment in that flowing water.  The only loophole that could make those atmospheric gasses then re-emerge into the atmosphere would supposedly be volcanism.

So, since it is one of the assertions about Mars, that it earlier had more volcanism, but now has much less, I have no trouble supposing that the atmosphere was "Lost" both by dissipation into space, but also to an unknown degree captured into the rocks, and regolith as the planet cooled down.

I really dispise the strait jacket in thinking that has been imposed on the minds of humans by those who only will entertain, loss to space.  That was very unkind.

Having set this up, a break and a new post, to continue this.

Last edited by Void (2020-05-23 18:30:07)


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#56 2020-05-23 18:39:36

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Atmospheric Separations

Let me define better, what I want.

Obviously, I want to inject vibrations into the subsurface of Mars.  Possibly not into ice covered lakes.

As I have indicated in the past, I am interested in a multi-layered Mars.  Seeking to make it biologically productive, materially useful, and if it were to have a average pressure (At the nearer future), a good place to launch missions from into the solar system.  A civilization.

And I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make the universe as experienced on Mars to suit the needs of humans.

These heated reservoirs could be ice covered salty lakes, or deep vaults underground.

A diversion now, to make a point:
https://www.futurity.org/ice-on-mars-2073202/
Quote:

Newly discovered layers of ice buried a mile beneath Mars’ north pole are the remnants of ancient polar ice sheets, report researchers.

The point for the above is that there "IS" buried materials, that could be used to terraform Mars.  Is it only water?  Or some CO2?  Clathrates of what?

Could humans dig down to it and carve out huge vaults, extract the volatile materials to help terraform Mars?

Apparent truth that components of a potential biosphere for Mars, have been buried deep.  Might be retrievable.

I want Mars to be crafted into the "Land of 10 Million Lakes".  smile  a clue.

Next post, back to Adsorption.

A break now.

Last edited by Void (2020-05-23 18:58:24)


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#57 2020-05-25 18:44:24

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Atmospheric Separations

Will continue after a review of the previous.


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#58 2020-05-26 15:45:19

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Atmospheric Separations

So, I will speculate on many sources of the desired vibrations.

I am not at all the first person who though of geothermal for Mars.
http://marspedia.org/index.php?title=Geothermal_energy

I would think that since digging vaults deep, and extensive would provide space to pressurize, and might also give geothermal energy, it only makes sense, to look into it.  I guess a network of boring tunnels could be established, with some vaults.  Inside of those vaults the ability to drill very much deeper.  But I am not an expert at such things, so I will leave it at that.  But of course if this was done, then geology of Mars could be studied, and also perhaps the discovery of ore bodies of use.

Such a system might not only be geothermal in nature, but simply "Thermal Storage".  Obviously if you have a source of heat, say during a day or summer, you might generate heat into the tubes and wells, and then extract it at other times, and so maybe generate electric power.

-------

And Mars has so many crater basins, it seems logical to fill them with briny water.  As is usual, I intend to cover these with protective lids.  Ice and plastic, Styrofoam ect.  Here again is a place to store thermal energy, for whatever use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … Antarctica

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … Antarctica
Quote:

Lake Vanda is a meromictic lake with a maximum depth of
about 75 m; the lake lies about 30 km northwest of Lake Bonney in
the Wright Valley (1,2,6). Waters in the upper 50 m of the Lake
Vanda water column are cool, oxic, and oligotrophic, whereas at
about 50 m waters transition to a warm, hypersaline, and anoxic
brine that forms in the bottom 20 m of the lake (2,6,7)(Fig. 1).
The high transparency of the relatively thin Lake Vanda ice cover
allows the deep penetration of solar energy (8,9). Solar heating
warms the water column, with the water temperature gradually
warming from 0°C at the surface to about 12°C at a depth of 50 m
and then rising steadily thereafter to reach a maximum of nearly
25°C on the bottom (6)(Fig. 1A). Besides supplying heat, this deep
influx of solar energy supports a phytoplankton bloom at a 55- to
60-m depth, where the relatively warm temperatures and inor-
ganic nutrients diffusing upward from the brine stimulate photo-
synthesis (10).

I should think that similar things can be constructed on Mars.

And I hope that they would be salty.

https://phys.org/news/2020-01-team-elec … ially.html

Might brines on Mars contain Uranium?  Other metals?
Quote:

Fast forward to today, and these compounds have come back into vogue with a wide range of applications, from medicine to nanoscale engineering. For Ménard and fellow UCSB chemistry professor Trevor Hayton, as well as Tel Aviv University chemistry professor Roman Dobrovetsky, carboranes could hold the key to more efficient uranium ion extraction. And that, in turn, could enable things like better nuclear waste reprocessing and uranium (and other metal) recovery from seawater.

I think that modern methods will prove to be good on Mars.  A lake could serve as the radiator for a fission reactor.  If somehow their was a spill, then that lake could be allowed to freeze top to bottom, isolating the radioactive materials.  On Earth you would not be likely to have such an options.

I would expect to use solar power options, which could be associated with Adsorption methods, to extract chemicals from the atmosphere.

Done

Last edited by Void (2020-05-27 09:45:58)


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#59 2020-05-27 09:47:45

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Atmospheric Separations

Per the previous post, since it seems likely that Mars once had oceans, and seas, and salt lakes, many materials might be extractable from that reconstituted sea water.  That is a hope anyway.

https://phys.org/news/2020-01-team-elec … ially.html
Quote:

Additionally, the electrochemical process could also be applied to uranium extraction from seawater, which would ease pressure on the terrestrial mines where all uranium is currently sourced.
"There's about a thousand times more dissolved uranium in the oceans than there are in all the land mines," Ménard said. Similarly, lithium—another valuable metal that exists in large reserves in seawater—could be extracted this way, and the researchers plan to take this research direction in the near future.

Now it has occurred to me that just possibly the above device would work on Martian atmosphere which is a gas solution.

Maybe you  could pluck out the Oxygen, Carbon Monoxide, Nitrogen, Argon, ect.

If so, then Mars itself becomes a chemical energy generator.  I believe that the U.V. would continuously generate more CO and Oxygen.

The dust storms/dust devils may also create some of it.

Last edited by Void (2020-05-27 10:14:13)


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#60 2020-05-27 10:16:21

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Atmospheric Separations

Well another move of course it to create protective covers for the ice covered lakes.  Then above that various types of solar power, and also attempts to do atmospheric separations using adsorption, thermal swings, and perhaps imposed variable pressure.

Break.


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#61 2020-05-27 11:03:36

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,194

Re: Atmospheric Separations

So, I see no reason not to reach higher from there.

I will get on board with this plan, it begins to make sense.  Every other terraform plan takes lots of time.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … ndlbingill
Quote:

Elon Musk Needs 10,000+ Missiles to Nuke Mars. 'No Problem,' He Says

So, I would add to that, orbital solar power stations.  Rectennas on the ground, maybe even the lakes used as a thermal receiver.
Mirrors
Space Stations, maybe inside of Phobos and/or Demos.

For Demos:
https://www.geekwire.com/2019/safest-be … on-deimos/
Quote:

The safest bet for space settlers? Would you believe it’s inside Mars’ moon Deimos?
by Alan Boyle on September 10, 2019 at 11:28 pm

I believe that there perhaps 2 people here who could like that, (Other than me).

Dune.  A walk now.

Last edited by Void (2020-05-27 11:22:55)


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