Okay guys, we need new moderators... - Want a job? Post here or nominate.

kbd512 · 2020-04-22 16:32:48

elderflower,

Although I'm almost positive that those recent posts were the work of spammers, they haven't posted anything technically illegal yet, which is why I haven't banned their accounts and deleted their posts. I don't want to remove legitimate posts or accounts, on a mere hunch or even strong suspicion.

SpaceNut,

If you have a different policy on this, then I can delete the posts and accounts that elderflower made reference to, which are almost certainly the work of spammers. When you get a chance, I'd like to know if we have any mechanism yet for separating legitimate accounts from fraudulent accounts.

tahanson43206 · 2020-04-22 17:09:50

For kbd512 re topic in general ...

it was a lot of work for SpaceNut, but I noticed that he was banning all the computer generated ID's immediately, and waiting for the somewhat plausible ID's to reveal their true nature. There are probably multiple spammers at work. Some are (apparently) more sophisticated than others.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-04-23 08:16:15

For kbd512

TerrymP has dropped off a spam payload.

That ID was created on April 11th.

By our allowing that ID to remain unbanned, it gave the spammer a green light to use the ID for a spam delivery.

I understand it is a lot of work for the Administrator/Moderator to stay ahead of spam.

I joined the FlubBB forum to try to learn a bit about the program, and have been following discussions there for a while.

One thing I've picked up is the availability of a mod that uses a hidden field as a robot detector. I've forgotten by this point which way the logic works. I ** think ** the idea is that a human will not fill out a hidden field, but a robot is likely to do so. The FlubBB forum discussion appeared to indicate this technique successfully stopped a large part of the automated spam.

Some time back, I noticed that you offered to help with management of the FlubBB package in a "conversation" with Administrator Burk.

Subsequently, I noticed that you had not been contacted back.

There is an alternative possible now that I'd like to bring to your attention.

It would be possible for me to set up a test system with a server Linux package to host a copy of FluxBB. At one time I had several servers running, but I've let all that fall by the wayside.

I'm interested in doing that, but it would be a LOT more interesting of someone else were covering the same ground at the same time. I think it is reasonable to extend the offer to ANY member of the forum who might have the time, the resources and (above all) the interest level to set up a test system.

I've proposed to SpaceNut that the Mars Society set up a separate copy of FluxBB just for logins to the forum. Nothing ever came of that proposal (that I know of).

The language on the primary forum (this one) would be changed at registration to point to the new trial forum. There is a way for a new member to be added manually to the primary forum, and since only Calliban has arrived as a valid new member over the past year, we have history to suggest the volume of demand for manual entry would be low.

Meanwhile, the new test registration web site would collect all the spam. It need only be checked once a day for a valid membership application. The test forum could be made open to the public, so anyone in the membership could watch for valid applications. That would help to spread the duty of monitoring the test forum over several people.

By any chance, do you have some old hardware back on a shelf somewhere you could configure as a Linux server for a test FluxBB environment?

Edit#1: A benefit of setting up the kind of separate registration system described above is that the spammers could see their handiwork on display, and compare notes among themselves. One possibility is that the spammer software may look for a copy of their payload in the victim system, and go on to another site if it is found. The less sophisticated spam robots would just drop off another copy.

Edit#2: Nicoles is another ID created April 11th, allowed to sit quietly, and then populated with spam.

The number of unbanned spam candidates is now greater than 100, since SpaceNut left off banning them on April 8th.

Edit#3: Well! I've discovered a ** benefit ** of spammers! The thread resurfaced by one of the fake offer spammers turns out to have been quite interesting (to me at least). It was started in 2015, and it featured a spirited conversation with impaler, RobertDyck, SpaceNut, Terraformer and even GW Johnson.

Impaler objected to the frequent zigs and zags of the conversation, and SpaceNut explained that the forum policy had changed after one of the rebuilds. Adherence to the topic manager's requests is more a matter of personal responsibility.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-04-23 12:39:45)

kbd512 · 2020-04-23 21:24:13

tahanson43206,

The offending users have been banned. I also banned the other users who recently posted single posts and nothing else. All of them appeared to have fraudulent E-mail addresses. A few of the posts also contained non-sensical wording, which would also generally be associated with bots.

Unfortunately, the only hardware I have laying around is some old Sun workstations and a Dell Optiplex from about 20 years ago. I think this current MacBook is going on 8 or 9 years now. I kept it alive by replacing the hard drive, RAM, etc. I should probably buy a new machine, but I kinda want to see how long this one lives before it gives up the ghost. It's still on the original motherboard and fan, if you can believe that.

If I post a new topic, I don't generally object to wherever the topic leads. So long as we don't go wildly off-topic, such as going from a rocket engine to last season's football draft picks or something like that, it's fair game for everyone. In general, I find discussion about things that are technically feasible, but haven't been implemented for one reason or another, to be the most interesting. I would love for humanity to have a functional warp drive so we could leave this rock and set sail for other stars, but nobody seems to have the foggiest idea about how to build one. Prior to achieving that goal, I think a much more energy efficient means to make it into orbit is a worthwhile system for humanity to have. In the mean time, I still count not having been nuked back to the Stone Age or a giant asteroid wiping us all out as a major win.

tahanson43206 · 2020-04-24 04:38:36

For kbd512 re #204

Thanks for attending to the latest robot storm << grin >>

Re FluxBB .... It will take me a while to get all the components lined up for an up to date server. Must of my equipment is ten years old or so.

Even with the laptop, I would imagine you could download the FluxBB package and install it in order to look at the code.

If I set up a server, you could be granted access so you could experiment with it. I gave up my fixed IP's (from a failed business) a while ago, but my randomly assigned IP is stable, so it can be used for access. I'd have to configure port 80 access in the modem and in the router, since those items were replaced, but that's not much of a problem.

Let me know if that would be at all interesting.

Your closing line really rang a bell << grin >> Not more than a couple of weeks ago, at most, while the Apollo 13 flight was receiving a lot of attention on CSPAN, Commander Lovell was being interviewed after the safe return. He pushed back (gently but) hard against the notion offered by a reporter that the flight was a failure. He emphatically said that from his perspective, getting the crew back made the flight a success.

(th)

kbd512 · 2020-04-24 20:02:57

tahanson43206,

Apollo did exactly what it was designed to do- namely, kept its crew alive through a deep space transit, subsequent catastrophe, and then it safely transported them back to Earth. The notion that that was any kind of failure, given that safe transport to and from the moon was the overriding design criteria for the rocket that sent it to the moon, the capsule, and the lander... Is simultaneously laughable and absurd in the extreme. Anything else that Apollo or its lander did were merely bonus points in furtherance of scientific objectives.

Our media has become absolutely obsessed with their "gotcha" questions and "making the news" instead of "reporting the news". They seem to want to be the stars in their own story. Whenever they ask questions, they won't even stop talking long enough to listen to the answer. The only way in which their (fairly obvious) mindset has "shaped my opinion" is to view them as arrogant and condescending to the point that I stopped watching / listening entirely. That's typically the very last type of tact to take with anyone you want to listen to you, but I guess their mileage varies.

elderflower · 2020-04-25 04:46:06

We have a load more bot posts on the Other Space Advocacy topic.

tahanson43206 · 2020-04-25 08:55:32

For kbd512 re cleanup of spam

Another reason why cleaning up spam posts is a good idea is that they leave permanent disruptions in the flow of topics.

This forum has accumulated a significant amount of (often useful) content. If you've never gone back to look, you'd not necessarily be aware of that.

Our little spammer friends are dropping little speckles of unrelated material in the middle of topics.

I recommend we (forum members plus Mars Society) take the title of this topic to heart, and look for an Administrator (Acting) to take on the spam removal in the absence of SpaceNut.

We have no way of knowing when (or if) SpaceNut will be able to return to his former level of forum support.

Edit #1: I'd nominate this character for the banned fleet: Today 16:02:31
pheasantenergy

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-04-25 14:57:04)

kbd512 · 2020-04-25 15:45:03

tahanson43206,

I have the ability to ban those users, but no ability to remove their posts from that area of the forum. Only SpaceNut has the ability to remove spam posts from that area.

tahanson43206 · 2020-04-25 17:42:49

For kbd512 re #209

Thanks for the explanation of the difference in powers!

Would you be willing to upgrade to full Administrator? You could request the appointment be temporary if SpaceNut comes back "full time".

However, I notice that we have a full power Administrator who has not been active for in excess of 4000 days.

It would be reasonable (as I see it) to consider swapping out that Administrator for someone who has been around recently.

Your active role as a Moderator would appear to give you some related experience, although (I'm guessing) there is more to the duty than I am aware of.

RobertDyck and IanM are the other two currently active moderators who might be interested in an upgrade?

(th)

kbd512 · 2020-04-25 18:20:36

tahanson43206,

I'm willing to try to take over for SpaceNut until he returns. I'd much rather get him a reliable internet connection. I can't imagine why we can't do that. Anyway, I've offered to pay for internet and a new computer for SpaceNut, if that's what he needs. I'm not sure what more I can do at this point. I've contacted Mr. Burk and left a voicemail and E-mail for him, as well as SpaceNut. For now, I'll await further instruction from James. I don't check my E-mail all that often on account of the fact that I receive so much spam, but I'll try to check back each day to find out what's going on with SpaceNut. It would also be useful to have RobertDyck as a backup moderator / administrator, perhaps GW as well if he has the time and inclination.

tahanson43206 · 2020-04-25 19:57:06

For kbd512 re #211

Thank you for your generosity in the present situation! I'll pitch in (to the extent my participation will help) by sending a supportive email to Mr. Burk. I rather doubt he has time to keep up with discussions in this forum.

Edit #1: I have completed sending an email to Mr. Burk.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-04-25 20:27:18)

RobertDyck · 2020-04-26 05:01:56

I have deleted spam, and banned users who post it. However, under "Other space advocacy organizations" we have a number of single post threads of new users announcing themselves. I didn't want to delete them because they aren't spam. I left it to SpaceNut to decide what to do with them.

kbd512 · 2020-04-26 06:33:12

RobertDyck,

After watching what's been going on, I ended up banning those users. All of the host names associated with their E-mail addresses were previously and recently reported by multiple other sites for launching spam attacks against those sites. If any of those accounts are legit, then we can un-ban those users after sorting out who's who. It's a pity that people with the intelligence to do something like that can't find a more productive use of their time.

tahanson43206 · 2020-04-26 06:33:43

For RobertDyck re #213 and topic in general

Thank you for helping with the spam issue.

I think your interpretation makes sense when SpaceNut is here to enforce a culture of NewMars forum (whatever that is).

In the absence of SpaceNut, it seems to me reasonable to suppose that a text message placed into a forum by a robot, that opens with "I am the new girl" and has the ID/Name of a man, deserves to be removed.

If a ** real ** person who we would invite to join the forum were to show up, the message would clearly be on point, and it would make reference to something specific that had gone before.

In an ideal world, it seems to me the forum would have in place a system of interviews with prospective candidates.

Someone like Calliban (who is the most recent person to join and contribute to the forum (that I can think of)) would pass muster in the first round.

Most of the spam artists would never reply to the first inquiry.

"New Girl" would not, I am fairly confident.

Edit#1: The text from a recent post would qualify the candidate for message removal and banning, yet it has been allowed to remain in place.

The post I have in mind is the one by "pheasantenergy" dated Yesterday 16:02:31, #24 in a topic about Martian Exports.

The kind of point of view expressed is well within the range that has appeared in this forum in the past, but the author made no effort to adapt the content to the forum where the robot dumped it. For that reason, I recommend it be banned and that the message be deleted.

The issue seems to be that a robot generated message that looks even remotely sensible is being accepted as by a real person. A more stringent inspection protocol would help to keep that kind of automatically generated content out of the forum.

I have reported before, but this is a good time to repeat it ... the FlubBB forum contains numerous discussions about spam, and about techniques to reduce it.

Among the ones that I read there, that seems easiest to implement, is a patch to FluxBB that introduces a hidden field to the Registration form. That field would (of course) be left blank by humans, but apparently robots can see it and they fill it out, which gives the FluxBB registration patch the opportunity to reject the application for registration. I don't know if the ID of the robot is automatically banned, but that would be a logical step to take.

Over time, as the database table of banned ID's fills up, the robots will spend more and more time trying to find a vacant ID.

A human who wanted to join the forum would (presumably) be able to look at the ID's in the Users table that are near to the desired ID, and create an ID in the format that allows a petition for registration to pass the first stage of review.

In the past I have proposed setting up a separate FlubBB forum just for registrations, and use manual acceptance for this forum.

At the rate of one "Calliban" per year, that would not impose too much of a burden on the Administrator (I would think).

There are about 25 fake ID's being added to the User Table every day. Each and every one of those (I suspect) is a ticking time bomb, just waiting for the robot to get back to confirm the ID has not been banned, and to then drop off the payload.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-04-26 06:49:05)

kbd512 · 2020-04-26 06:51:11

tahanson43206,

There's no way to be 100% certain, but thus far the accounts have only been subsequently used to generate fraudulent postings. We're not hiring people to post here, so there's probably never going to be an interview process. We take whomever shows up. However, we still have rules and one of those rules says you can't advertise fake passports or other such nonsense.

tahanson43206 · 2020-04-26 10:53:16

For kbd512 .... There's a difference between "hiring" people to post, which is effectively what the spam companies are doing, and "admitting" people to the forum.

I would have to go back to look in the archive to be sure my memory is correct, but I am ** pretty sure ** I recall reading that at one time there was an admission process for granting access to write on the forum.

Again, I'm depending on my recollection, so it could be faulty, but I ** think ** SpaceNut (or someone from that time period) said the practice was discarded because of the volume of spam. The services performed by administrators and moderators such as yourself are all volunteer, and time is valuable, so the economics of time value led to the decision to just let anyone who wants to to open an account and post whatever they want.

I recognize there are some self-motivated spammers who are not interested in making money, but a certain number would appear to be motivated to try to make money by advertising their wares.

In another forum I visit regularly, a new applicant offers packing and moving services in India. The administrator of that forum has stopped admitting applicants, but as a member, I am able to send messages to applicants. They are limited in their reply to a tweet-length message, so I sent an inquiry to this enterprising salesperson asking if they are willing to think about packing and moving for a trip to Mars. I'm not expecting a reply, but I'll report if anything interesting comes in.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-04-30 17:22:50

For kbd512, following my advice to Yoda, here is a candidate for banning:

Today 17:38:45
Cheri9838

The post appears (to me at least) to be a marketing ploy of some kind.

(th)

Yoda · 2020-04-30 19:05:09

Here's another one of the spam accounts:
CyrilLamar

Posted this: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9463

Yoda · 2020-05-05 19:16:16

A user named BravsolF posted some links to illegal content in this thread: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9352

Given the nature of the post, I think it should probably be deleted.

What confuses me is that he/she signed up back in 2018 (according to their profile page), then waited two years before spamming. Another thing that's confusing is that the user's post count is two, but I can only find one post when you click the show all posts button on their profile page. This suggests to me that they've already posted once, probably something similar to their second post, and then it got deleted by a moderator or admin.

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-05 19:46:15

For Yoda re #220

Thank you for your participation in the spam identification effort.

Your post noted the curious fact about the spammer with the illegal documents post. My guess is that the original message was deleted by a moderator, but for whatever reason the Administrator did not ban the ID. I've been visiting the FlubBB.org web site, to try to learn more about the package, but at this point I can't report much progress. People over there are ** way ** beyond ordinary users like me. Most appear to be system operators running or converting to FluxBB.

As far as the 2 year delay .... again this is just a guess, but I ** think ** a robot program is assigned the duty of probing every web site on Earth for port 80, and then probing any web sites it finds to see if it can register a dummy user. Then, another robot program comes along to see if any of the previous deposit attempts were allowed to remain on the victim site, and ** voila ** it is time to lay the egg.

For a while I ran a little set of web sites, and I watched in amazement as probes came into the site from all over the world. Those weren't customers! They were all the automated systems that have come into being over the decades. Some, like the search engines or the WayBack machine are welcome.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-06 06:24:57

For Yoda re #220

Your request for an Administrator to take a look at BravsolF was fulfilled! The ID was banned, and the two posts were deleted.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-05-07 22:08:47

That's one of the reasons for trying to lock accounts in a banned status if they do not post in 90 days but even that's way to generous in my mind.
I move a batch of those outer space initial posts to meta since its the introduction topic area. Will see which should be banned later as I pick up speed with the new computer.

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-08 04:21:40

For SpaceNut re #223 ... Congratulations on progress with the new computer!

Thanks ** very ** much for cleaning up the Other Space advocacy organizations Topic!

It looks the way it should look, if a first time visitor to the forum decides to check out that category of information!

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-09 10:46:04

For SpaceNut or kbd512 ...

We have a new attack on the Space Advocacy topic.

I have FluxBB software downloaded but am not yet in position to fire it up on a server.

(th)

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