2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

kbd512 · 2020-05-04 18:59:07

Terraformer,

Does your response address or explain why China attempted to obfuscate the true nature of COVID-19?

louis · 2020-05-04 20:14:19

Exactly Kbd...and China lied about human-to-human transmission, initially claiming that was not occurring.

China basically lies about everything. It lies because it can get away with it. It can get away with it because it is a Communist dictatorship. All politicians would lie all the time if they thought they could get away with it. In democracies they have to keep to minimal lying, knowing that otherwise it could be career-ending. No such jeopardy exists for the Communist leadership in China. So, lie they do.

kbd512 wrote:

GW,
If a viral epidemic started here in America, it would be front page news from the word "go". Unlike communist countries, there's no censorship of the media just because our government doesn't like what the press has to say. We're not hiding what we know about the disease or how it's affected us.
Everything bad that happens is a big secret in communist / totalitarian regimes and those big secrets have a way of leading to even bigger problems. China doesn't get to take the rest of the world down with it just to keep whatever "soon to not be a secret" secret that their so-called leadership is worried about revealing to other countries or to their own people. Nobody in Wuhan is unaware of what happened, for example. There's no secret to be kept here. Nobody I know of thinks China is "weak" in any way for admitting that there's a public health problem.

louis · 2020-05-05 02:07:39

I read an interesting article in the UK's Spectator magazine by a pathologist. Points out that there are thousands of mutations of the virus - thousands. Each infected patient can excrete something like one trillion virus particles a day. In a normal non lockdown situation people who are infected but don't feel too ill circulate in the community and pass on the milder mutations. But in a lockdown the situation is reversed. People with mild symptoms stay at home and don't circulate. But of course anyone feeling very ill tends to get taken into hospital or other medical facilities because of the focus on the virus - and thus hospitals or other facilities become breeding grounds for the much more deadly mutations.

This is the first piece in the media I have read that points out just how many mutations there are. So this is a critical factor.

kbd512 · 2020-05-05 07:19:14

Louis,

I honestly don't care about why the Chinese government behaves the way it does at this point. I think we should use our power to compel them to stop doing self-destructive things that needlessly kill so many people and destroy so much economic prosperity, including their own. I've had enough of their nonsense. If they can't accurately report serious problems, then we need to find a better business partner. I think India would make a much better business partner at this point.

Void · 2020-05-05 11:03:52

KDB512, I agree to a large degree.

Have a look at parts of so called "Latin America".

Mexico (Nice mix of Latin and Native Americans.

Central America

Columbia

Peru

Maybe even Ecuador (A bit too leftest?)

Chile

Maybe even though they are a bit of a trial to work with, Argentina, down the road a bit, maybe.

Places which might be in our supply chains, and have the vast Pacific between them for any entity which may want to disrupt our supply chains.

But yes some India too.

Last edited by Void (2020-05-05 11:05:14)

Void · 2020-05-05 11:06:44

Louis, per your post #303.

I will just start with it. Young Blood Therapy.

https://singularityhub.com/2017/01/29/y … -it-ready/

With reference to my post #293, per immunity to the Common Cold.

I think it is probably wrong to use the common cold as to suggest that some Corona Virus do not prompt immunity. That reference in #293, suggests that it does. It is just that there are so many diseases we call "The Common Cold", that it looks that way.

Apparently a particular type of common cold will likely produce immunity for it that can last for years or a lifetime. But then you get another cold. It is a different variation. The cold has likely been with humans forever and a day, and so there are many distinct varieties.

The Corvid-19? is apparently new to humans, and I am guessing it had one crossover to humans from somewhere, and that all variations are descended from it. So, perhaps they are all no more than 4-5 months old. That gives the hope that if you are immune to one mutation, you may have some immunity to other variations.

And I do agree with what you posted. I choose to separate the infection paths into 3 types.
1) Dead Body & Flies. (This would support the most obnoxious type).
2) Hospital, sick and very sick. (This may also support a deadlier version).
3) Somewhat open society. (In this case, provided that the infection paths for #1 and #2 are sufficiently dampened, it is likely that the virus dominance will be for varieties which do not typically kill).

#1 is usually handled correctly in most societies at this time. Flies are horrible dirty creatures. When a human "Dies", it takes perhaps 3 days typically for all of their cells to die, I think. Flies both spit and poop on you when the land and fly away. So obviously you do not want flies that have been on a person who died to then be on you.

#2) I find it hard to believe that a care center would allow flies near any infected patients. Especially if they are violently ill. That is a transmission path to get rid of for sure. And the people caring for the ill should be given all needed PPE. That is deeply in our interest.
And such exposed workers, need to be isolated from the general population as much as is possible.

#3) A relative, did a calculation. It indicated that Sweden has about the same death rate as the USA does. And they have only a partial and somewhat voluntary distancing, mostly for the vulnerable to practice. They are going for group or herd immunity. I believe they have about a 30% infection and recovered, and hopefully immunity number.

Of course the USA is not Swedish. I am 1/2, maybe that's going to help me. Don't know. We do seem to have situations where sub-populations appear to be more vulnerable. So, we need some care about that.

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We seem to be given lots of terror information. Some is ambiguous.
We may need to wait up to two years for a vaccination, but maybe just 8 months.
Obviously we cannot hide in our houses for 2 years, or, I think even 8 more months. It would simply be impossible.

But without vaccination, and yet with better treatments, perhaps the death rate for the vulnerable can be reduced to more acceptable numbers.

I still think that masks should be required and social distancing where possible as much as can be tolerated. Currently I even wear a mask when I go to the park either walking, running or biking. I try to stay a safe distance from people. We most likely have to do that, but I will stop wearing a mask when it gets too hot. For mental health, and vitamin "D", sunshine and air are required.

So for me that makes sense, where I live in a suburban area. I feel sorry for core city dwellers. It's not so easy for them.

Now, it appears that some treatments are emerging.
-The one that shortens the length of serious illness, just might also be useful to reduce deaths. Not established as true yet.
-They seem to be getting treatments that can quiet a out of control immune system. This apparently happens in association with having to be on a Ventilator.
-Blood Plasma transfer. This sort of debunks the idea that Coronavirus-19 does not provoke an immune response. What good would it be for patients to get a plasma transfer from a recovered person, if it was not containing a factor that helped that patient? The presumption is that indeed the plasma may have a factor that either helps to suppress the virus, or makes the patient stronger. It is not plainly revealed if it is one of those or perhaps both.

And do I return to "Young Blood Treatments".

So, really we might prefer to know which it is, but mostly we want to use it if it works, however it works.
https://singularityhub.com/2017/01/29/y … -it-ready/

It only makes sense, that if some immunity to the virus is given to the patient, we want that.
But, if it helps a Elder, or a compromised patient to have a more youthful capability, then we want to use that.

So it looks like typically "Blood Plasma" is used. Maybe transfusions are not to be used, but I would be curious about that as well, for an experiment, to detect results for patients.

As for the young, they should have some rewards for participating in this.
-Of course they should feel good because they are doing a good thing.
-But also, if we have treatments for the seriously ill, then it justifies more reducing barriers to employment for these young people.
-And since the government is giving out helicopter money at this time to calm the population and stimulate the economy, I really think that young people willing to donate blood should be seriously compensated for the giving, by giving them significant money.

Until the crisis is over, at least.

Done

Last edited by Void (2020-05-05 11:45:54)

Void · 2020-05-05 13:34:58

I'm going to go again on this. Just got back from a walk, thought about it some more.

Young Blood treatments:
It is only logical, that if older persons tend to be more vulnerable to the Coronavirus, making them temporarily more young with young blood treatments should help them through an illness on average. Even if the donor does not have antibodies to donate, was never sick with Coronavirus.

And as I said in the previous post, young people could use an a reciprocal favor, as they often now are suffering from a lack of income. I think they should get significant money for a donation. Young people preferred by far.

I have read that infusions of blood plasma have spotty results. I am wondering if some of the variation in results could be in response to the age of the blood donor, per young blood therapy, and of course what kind of an immune response the donor had, if they are a recovered Coronavirus donor.

So, some variables to sort out there.

One benefit to giving patients blood plasma from young people, both non-infected and recovered, would be you could make some kind of a comparison of average results, and from that begin to make a measurement of what immunity is present in a recovered donor vs. someone who donates and was not yet infected.

I worked in jobs that were often involved in measurements, so I feel somewhat competent in the notions of it. For now anyway.

As I have also previously said, meat packing plants should be an indicator of re-infection danger. Obviously if someone gets infected and recovers and returns to their job, we are going to get a measurement of what the re-infection dangers are.

Here again, I think that those who become seriously ill, should be covered somehow for their bills (Per Coronavirus), because we will be using them for a measurement. But only during this emergency. Of course if the emergency is over later, they should not get Coronavirus of a dangerous sort.

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I think I am getting annoyed by the News media, and thoughtless people who seem to want to exploit these problems to make news feed. Avoiding rational thinking, sewing panic.

I think I have already made arguments about immunity in recovered patients. I suppose we will need real measurements.

Sweden. If they continue what they are doing.....supposedly 30% of the population have had or have the Coronavirus.

Someone told me that in a few weeks, they should have herd immunity, if it is possible to have it.
So, there is another measurement we can get for free. We may find out before fall, thank God!

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And then there is this from the News Media and Worry Mongers:

-Oh! There is no evidence that warmer weather, and humidity slow down the Coronavirus.

And yet.....

-We may very well see another peak in the fall and winter like the common flu!

So, can they both be true?

Well maybe, but it seems suspicious.

Really would like to see a little more rational thinking as information emerges.

And more options for treatment like young blood to temporarily make the infirm just a bit more firm.

So, if the "Measurements" indicate that herd immunity is possible, and especially if we are worried about another peak in the fall and winter, I would say in a month or two we should make a decision to try for herd immunity or not.

If the decision is no, we are going to need a lot of PPE for everyone.

And watch out for psychopaths in business, because about ~3% of men are such. Women I don't have a number for. Most of them are no problem. Some however enjoy playing games of torment for the people under them, and have little or no conscience. I fear some of them might like to avoid herd immunity if they could corner the market on PPE. Watch out for that.

Done

Last edited by Void (2020-05-05 14:00:56)

Yoda · 2020-05-05 19:23:57

For Void Re #307

I don't mean to go off topic, but toward the end you said:

Void wrote:

And watch out for psychopaths in business, because about ~3% of men are such.

Do you mean 3% of all men, or just 3% of men in business? I find that interesting either way.

louis · 2020-05-05 20:11:11

Couldn't agree more, Kbd. China has a plan to destroy our economies and dominate the world. They do this partly through military espionage stealing the democracies copyrighted material.

India is something like a functioning democracy. We should partner with them along with Taiwan, Japan, Philippines, Singapore and anywhere that isn't actively seeking to destroy us.

We had a sensible policy for dealing with the Soviet Union when it was at its most dangerous: containment.

The Nixon-Kissinger hug-China policy was one of the most stupid ever pursued (and boy has it been pursued by Nixon's successors!). It has come close to destroying the democracies, even before coronavirus.

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,
I honestly don't care about why the Chinese government behaves the way it does at this point. I think we should use our power to compel them to stop doing self-destructive things that needlessly kill so many people and destroy so much economic prosperity, including their own. I've had enough of their nonsense. If they can't accurately report serious problems, then we need to find a better business partner. I think India would make a much better business partner at this point.

Void · 2020-05-05 20:47:06

Yoda said:

For Void Re #307
I don't mean to go off topic, but toward the end you said:
Void wrote:
And watch out for psychopaths in business, because about ~3% of men are such.
Do you mean 3% of all men, or just 3% of men in business? I find that interesting either way.
Offline

As my memory serves me, it is 3% of all men. I have no number for the females, but they must also exist to some extent, but I think I recall that they exhibit their psychopathy in a different way, deceptions and such.

As for most of the men, they are supposedly harmless.

But in business, they are not necessarily useful to business. They are so skillful at their art, that rather than being concerned for the success of the business, to a degree more than is necessary, they gravitate to positions of power so that they can torment the people under them for their amusement. To play worthless games with them.

And yet they get away with it, they are typically not detected by higher management.

Last edited by Void (2020-05-05 20:48:32)

kbd512 · 2020-05-06 01:52:05

Void,

As always, I would rather employ my fellow Americans any time the opportunity presents itself. No matter where they or where they hail from, my loyalty is to my fellow Americans first, last, and always. We take care of our own people first. Then and only then can we begin to concern ourselves with taking care of other countries that need a hand up, even though the ultimate goal is to provide everyone with an constantly improving quality of life. However, I also recognize that producing 100% of everything sold in America is often impractical. There will be certain times when it makes more sense to produce a finished good or part of a finished good overseas. That said, what I want is for all countries to have as much of their own energy, industrial, agricultural, and medical base at home as they can manage. That's also a good way to negate the economic incentive to engage in wars or other self-destructive activities that create supply chain disruptions.

Maybe the products that people in Mexico want are not the same as the products that Americans want, or maybe local variations and innovations on certain globally manufactured products will best serve niche markets in different parts of the world. South America has cars that their people want to buy, for example. We have a highly complex and refined economic system and I think the best way to assure the survival of that system is to not become totally reliant on specialized manufacturing only done in one factory on the other side of the world. That's not a good survival strategy for a country or humanity. Shipping individual parts of the same product across the world several times is a great way to drive up the cost of the products in terms of capital, labor, and energy, but that's wasteful and inefficient- typically the result of perverse incentives created by governments. We have incredible resources to work with, but there are limits to everything. Human ingenuity is unlimited. Everything else, to include the universe itself, so far as we know, has limits.

Anyway, I would much rather do business with our neighbors, Mexico and Canada, as well as other non-communist South American countries, than rely on business partners on the other side of the world. I don't have anything against other countries, but Mexico and Canada are right next door and they also have stable governments with far fewer geopolitical problems that might cause them to engage in activities that would cut off production.

Void · 2020-05-06 08:44:25

That's pretty close to my views.

And I will not tell you how, (I think), I know, but I anticipate that the pacific coast of the Americas, and the North Sea both North American and European, can be of useful interest to us in this time period.

But the Pacific Ocean and S.E. Asia can be helpful to our needs. They can most likely take care of themselves as per China's intent.

I think on of the problems with dealing with China, other than their government style, is that they are Jealous of their notion that they should be the center of reality. I don't think they will ever get over that. It makes it hard to have them as trust partners.

The Pacific Coast of South America is easy, as long as old world powers do not warp them. (Cuba, Venezuela). And it is very unlikely that they can ever present that much of a threat to us even if they do develop a pathology of hatred towards us.

Last edited by Void (2020-05-06 08:48:51)

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-07 09:01:44

In another topic, there was an inquiry about how the virus has impacted cities not in Italy ...

Here is a report about an American territory which shows what can be accomplished with right right leadership, and a population willing to play the game well.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/place-u-no-c … 50844.html

(th)

Void · 2020-05-07 11:14:24

It looks like many paths to fixing the problem are possible.

I believe that New Zealand has some similar success. Of course in both cases they are somewhat remote island(s).

Sweden is of course currently trying for herd immunity.
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/zz/news/2 … weeks-away

My guess is that it will work to a degree. However they have had a high death toll, mostly in nursing homes, and elder care places. That is of course very unfortunate.

However I am seeing a pattern in American news reporting on the topic.

We of course can see how someone is censoring Dr. Erickson's claims. I am afraid I don't like that.

And if you look you cannot find a favorable article about Sweden's experiment on herd immunity that is later than 04-29-2020. So, suspicious also.

I fear, that our high experts want the evidence to support their claims rather than to look at the evidence, and come to conclusions.

As for the News Media, I am getting very angry at them. I think they are in love with the problem that cannot be solved, and do not want it solved. They seem not interested in a solution, but seem to love the news feed that they can generate if a problem cannot be solved, and festers. Something like a sea lamprey on a trout.

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Well, what to make of that....As soon as I finished keyboarding the above, my computer locked up, and I had to shut off my internet.
Paranoid with cause? It's not that I am paranoid, its that they are after me

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Well, I did and do have a reasonable observation of the way ahead, at least it seems reasonable to me.

Lets get rid of one stupid thing that keeps being thrown at us. "We don't know if Coronavirus infections induce immunity".
The argument goes that if you get a cold, your immunity is short lived, as you can get another one soon after.
Well in case you missed it, I dug up an article that said that for a particular strain of cold, you will get immunity for years or a lifetime.
It is just that you can then get a different strain of cold that then causes the symptoms.

As I have said, it appears that there are scare mongers out there.

As for the Swedish experiment, I think they are going to be likely to finish it. Possible useful herd immunity some time in May. A guarantee? No. We will see.

Certain states are going to try herd immunity light. They might not be thinking that, but if they are thinking they have to open for business, then they are also doing the herd immunity thing, like it or not.

I believe that the death rate for Sweden and the USA might be approximately equal at this time, in spite of our stay at home rules prior to this time. I am not saying that was wrong. The USA could have had an even worse death rate without it. But we seem to be approaching the limits of tolerance in some states to that treatment, and so we will go on to test herd immunity at those locations, like it or not.

What might make our situation better than previously was for Sweden, is the time we were in lockdown, some treatments that are hopeful, have been found. This may reduce the death rate for the seriously infected.

Blood Plasma:
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/06/heal … index.html

I don't think that just the antibodies are the only treatment that can come from blood.
*And by the way how can this treatment work, if the body does not create immunity after a infection from Coronavirus.

But I fear that if they focus only on the antibodies, they might miss something else that may be of value.

https://singularityhub.com/2017/01/29/y … -it-ready/
To my knowledge it is not known what is the factor(s) in young blood plasma that appears to invigorate an older entity, but it has been demonstrated to work in mice.

Although I do not like the concept, scientists have sewn old mice to young mice, and that invigorates the old mouse.

It is thought that it is something in the young mouse blood.

My hope is that they could find what that is and the synthesis it outside of a living being.

Still being older, maybe older than 55, 65, 70, 80, seems to make the danger of a serious infection more probable, and death more probable.

So, for now in an emergency, blood factor donations such as plasma, not just antibodies, might help an older person handle an infection with improved outcome. It should be looked into.

So, in other words, if you have a 70 year old patient, do not give them blood plasma from a 60 year old. Select it from someone much younger. It might help.

If the death rate for the seriously infected can be significantly reduced, the herd immunity experiments can be better justified, and the economy more opened up.

Which is a benefit for young blood donors who may be in monetary distress.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-05-07 11:50:41)

Void · 2020-05-07 13:30:24

Well this helps, I think:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/07/us/c … dates.html
Quote:

Coronavirus Live Updates: White House Blocks C.D.C. Guidance Over Economic and Religious Concerns
Another 3.2 million people filed for unemployment benefits. A new study found that nearly everyone who gets the disease eventually makes antibodies to the virus. The governor of Texas said people would not be jailed for defiantly reopening businesses.

The jury is still out on Sweden. I do notice that there seems to be a very strong bias in our press to discredit Sweden's method.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health … spartanntp

But if the experiment is carried to success, and there are no guarantees of herd immunity. Then we are going to want to look at the long term death numbers, of Sweden and other Scandinavian countries. That is, if herd immunity does occur, then eventually the death rate for Sweden should go down, but for the other countries the number may continue. We will see, unless the experiment is aborted, or unless a vaccine appears suddenly much sooner than what is expected.

As I have mentioned before, much of the death is in elder care facilities. So, if herd immunity is tried for then the responsible thing is to invest more in protecting the inhabitants of such places.

I do note that there seems to be an extreme bias from our news media to discredit the Swedish method rather than to wait for the final results, which might arrive as early as this month. I am guessing full results if they occur for herd immunity will arrive later than May.

Ok, at last a fair hearing for Sweden:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sw … &FORM=VIRE

So, indeed, 90% of the deaths were elders. So then more protection needed, and I think more treatments, including perhaps "Young Blood" plasma and antibodies for them. As well as other treatments.

I continue with this because unlike Sweden, some of our states are going to do something similar to Sweden for economic reasons, but the results will likely end up being somewhat similar as those which Sweden has experienced.

Last edited by Void (2020-05-07 13:53:27)

Terraformer · 2020-05-07 15:32:26

We have to accept that, unless we fully lock down and crush the curve, nursing homes are going to be hit and their residents will mostly die. We can't isolate the workers and stop them from getting sick, and stopping visitors has it's own costs (what the hell are we keeping people alive for, if they're barred from any human contact until they die?). Those who don't need care can self-isolate until it's passed

So we need to talk about whether the old person's friend is actually bad. Or whether letting it pay a visit is so bad that it's worth destroying people's livelihoods to extend the life of the very old by a year or so. What other generation would make the choice we have?

Void · 2020-05-07 15:41:06

And yet, I think we want to try as we can to mitigate the problem with isolation from the coronavirus, and also medications, of which I feel there are a significant presence now.

It is not as bad that way as it was at the start. In any case in the USA, we are not going to be able to keep half of the people in strong lockdown. They just won't put up with it, it seems. So, we might as well look at herd immunity and hope it does work some.

louis · 2020-05-07 17:45:43

Exactly. I caught your reference to pneumonia as "the old person's friend". Of course it is. You drift off, in a deep coma and eventually die.
There's not a lot of pain or distress.

I would add this :

Do we believe in evolution?

In particular do we believe that viruses evolve very quickly?

Do we believe that there are niches in ecosystems, and - if you kill off one species - another may well occupy that niche?

I think any sensible, rational person will answer yes to all three.

So, why do we think that if we kill off a flu virus with a vaccination programme or Covid-19 with a vaccination programme there won't be
another virus comes along to occupy that lovely hospitable ecosystem niche known as "very elderly people's lungs"?

"Defeat the virus" is narrative, not science.

Terraformer wrote:

We have to accept that, unless we fully lock down and crush the curve, nursing homes are going to be hit and their residents will mostly die. We can't isolate the workers and stop them from getting sick, and stopping visitors has it's own costs (what the hell are we keeping people alive for, if they're barred from any human contact until they die?). Those who don't need care can self-isolate until it's passed
So we need to talk about whether the old person's friend is actually bad. Or whether letting it pay a visit is so bad that it's worth destroying people's livelihoods to extend the life of the very old by a year or so. What other generation would make the choice we have?

kbd512 · 2020-05-07 19:30:39

Terraformer,

That's a very good question.

So, what is the point of living if you can't do any useful work, can't get an education, can't go out to see any of your relatives or friends, and everything you've worked to achieve or acquire through decades of persistent hard work is subsequently destroyed, in mere weeks or months, by the people in charge choosing to deliberately destroy our existing economic system, sans replacement economic system, that all of us depend upon for our very lives?

Was it an attempt to appease, or even worse, to actually feed into the fears of people who are already frightened by literally everyone and everything?

Was it, "I'm doing something purposeful with my life now because someone I put on a pedestal told me so?"

I've said it before, but apparently certain people still refuse to accept the simple and incontrovertible fact, based upon 100% of available observed evidence, that every single one of us are ultimately going to die. Death is an end state, whereas life is a fluid state primarily concerned with what you do with whatever time you do have before you die. Since there's nothing I can actually do about the end state, I choose to concern myself with what can be done in the fluid state. It's a continuous set of judgement calls pertaining to calculated risks.

I wager I'll get a paycheck if I'm permitted to do my job and can therefore pay my bills, live indoors, and eat decent meals, therefore I choose to spend most of my time working. If I survive to retirement age, I wage I'll still need to do those things, therefore I put some money towards retirement. I wager I won't get killed driving to work, therefore I drive to work.

If what you choose to do with your life is to try to avoid death, then you're destined to fail. At some point, all people, irrespective of their fears or beliefs, will have to accept that death is a minor, if consequential, part of life. In the end, it's only a question of when and where. You're no less "dead" if you starve to death after you lose your job, lose your car, lose your home, and then can't feed yourself than if you die from a virus. Only the Marie Antoinettes of this world don't see the problem with their proposal that we all live in our own little bubbles into perpetuity. We can't put bubble wrap around everyone, everywhere and forever, and then expect anything worth having to come from that.

I've also said before that if we want to replace our existing economic systems that use money for relative valuation with something else entirely, then fine, but submit your proposal and be prepared for some serious scrutiny. If you're not going to do that, then accept that all current economic systems in existence on planet Earth and in use by humanity at this exact moment in time depend upon economic transactions wherein goods or services are exchanged for money and that system requires economic activity to continue to exist.

Louis,

It's called "the god complex". It's a rampant mind disease that afflicts people who are so highly educated and experienced that they really should know better, yet somehow they still don't, because no amount of education and experience can produce intelligence, wisdom, and uncommon sense. These people actually believe that they're going to defeat human physiology and biology, if only they could have a little more time.

If we somehow manage to completely defeat this little super bug, then there will be another super bug tomorrow, or a year from now, or ten years from now that is just as difficult to kill. All of humanity can't afford to sit on their duffs while we wait for them to figure out how to kill one silly little virus that still hasn't managed to kill as many people as so many other viruses kill each year.

Remember the AIDS epidemic of the 1980's and 1990's? HIV or infections that human immune systems can't defeat after being infected with HIV still kills more people each year than COVID-19 has killed to date. HIV has killed far more people than COVID-19, but for some weird reason quarantining those people never crossed our minds. Kinda makes you wonder, doesn't it? Between two and four times as many people died last year from HIV-related complications than have died from COVID-19 to date, but this is what caused people to hit the panic button.

SpaceNut · 2020-05-08 07:44:30

From the past and present its about disease identification when there is a spike in unknown deaths. Once we know the silent killer and how its about risk mitigation and prevention of transmission, with this one its about antibody and other methods to save life followed by testing of vaccines.
The risk reduction is the stage we are in as we identified what the killer and determined we must slow the infection paths. The slow but steady growth to working is the stage we are entering with many a caution with going to fast with safe guards for transmission reduced or removed.
The wishy washy mask is just one of those things in which you could wear one or chose not to around others when we have seen the science that shows how a cough spreads the disease. Its no a right to not wear the mask, its actually a crime to spread disease knowingly...as the mask is a risk reducer

Void · 2020-05-08 20:22:07

I agree Spacenut, if we want our other freedoms the least we can do is wear a mask. I have some left over from my Cryotherapy times at the Gym, which I regret I cannot anymore do. I am wondering why if I go to a drug store I cannot buy a mask. What the heck! Shouldn't they have that covered by now?

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Something helpful, I hope. Vitamin D, and Sunshine for Vitamin D.

Look up the relationship between Vitamin D and Corvid death.

It is worth a look I believe. Do it.

https://www.modernghana.com/news/994160 … rates.html
Quote:

COVID-19: Vitamin D deficiency; and, death rates; are both disproportionately higher in elderly Italians, Spanish, Swedish Somali, and African Americans?

I seem to think at this time that if not enough "D", your immune system is more likely to get out of control and damage your body, maybe kill you.

Vitamin D, Sunshine. Not too much Vitamin D though you can overdose.

Last edited by Void (2020-05-08 20:26:26)

Void · 2020-05-09 10:15:46

Corvid 19 mortality rates:
Per Latitude, and of course how much cloths you wear in the sunshine, and how much you stay in your house, and of course do you take a vitamin "D" supplement?

Another article I read last night suggested that if you are above 35 degrees latitude, it is quite possible to be vitamin "D" deficient.

This article is interesting as well naming Indonesia and the Philippines as problem areas as well. Perhaps too much clothing and no supplements? Don't know. Scandinavia, is good, strangely. But not their nursing homes.

However in another article I saw that th

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Papers.cfm … id=3561958

Although we could not know it at the time, letting the kids party on Florida beaches might have been the right thing to do. Locking people up in their houses then to some degree the wrong thing to do.

Here is an article about latitude effects per vitamin "D".
https://www.miragenews.com/covid-19-vit … -latitude/
Quote:

https://www.miragenews.com/covid-19-vit … -latitude/
Emeritus Professor of Medicine Jonathan M Rhodes
, University of Liverpool’s Department of Cellular and Molecular Physiology
Dr Sreedhar Subramanian, University of Liverpool’s Department of Cellular and Molecular Physiology
Eamon Laird, The Irish Longitudinal Study on Ageing, School of Medicine, Trinity College Dublin
Professor Rose Anne Kenny, Department of Medical Gerontology, Mercers Institute for Ageing, St James Hospital
Editorial originally published in The journal Alimentary Pharmacology and Therapeutics:
There are marked variations in mortality from COVID-19 between different countries. It is becoming clear that countries in the Southern Hemisphere are seeing a relatively low mortality. It could be argued that the virus spread later to the Southern Hemisphere and that countries there are simply behind those in the Northern Hemisphere but as time goes by this argument looks increasingly weak.
In Australia 100 cases were reported by 10th March, 1000 by 21st March; in the UK the first 100 had been reported by 5th March and the first 1000 by 14th March, just one week earlier. If one compares the mortality (68 per million) in the UK by 3rd April with the mortality (2 per million) in Australia by 10th April there is still a huge discrepancy.
When mortality per million is plotted against latitude it can be seen that all countries that lie below 35 degrees North have relatively low mortality. Thirty-five degrees North also happens to be the latitude above which people do not receive sufficient sunlight to retain adequate vitamin D levels during winter. This suggests a possible role for vitamin D in determining outcomes from COVID-19.
There are outliers of course – mortality is relatively low in Nordic countries – but there vitamin D deficiency is relatively uncommon, probably due to widespread use of supplements. Italy and Spain, perhaps surprisingly, have relatively high prevalence of vitamin D deficiency. Vitamin D deficiency has also been shown to correlate with hypertension, diabetes, obesity, and ethnicity – all features associated with increased risk of severe COVID-19.
There are considerable experimental data showing that vitamin D is important in regulating and suppressing the inflammatory cytokine response of respiratory epithelial cells and macrophages to various pathogens including respiratory viruses. Evidence that vitamin D might protect against infection is modest but it is important to note that the hypothesis is not that vitamin D would protect against SARS-CoV-2 infection but that it could be very important in preventing the cytokine storm and subsequent Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome that is commonly the cause of mortality.
Research is urgently needed to assess whether there may be a correlation between vitamin D status and severity of COVID-19 disease. Meanwhile the evidence supporting a protective effect of vitamin D against severe COVID-19 disease is very suggestive, a substantial proportion of the population in the Northern Hemisphere will currently be vitamin D deficient, and supplements e.g. 1000 international units per day are very safe. It is time for governments to strengthen recommendations for vitamin D intake and supplementation, particularly when under lock-down.”
The original editorial was published in The journal Alimentary Pharmacology and Therapeutics and can be found here
/Public Release. View in full here.
Tags:Australia, covid-19, diabetes, editorial, hypertension, infection, liverpool, medicine, molecular physiology, outcomes, pharmacology, Professor, St James, university, University of Liverpool
Help us keep up the good work Why?

We all can understand that the News Media has a great interest in an unsolvable, untreatable social problem and the arguments that will arise between, the alpha controllers urges, and the desire of the free American people to not be owned by them.

We see where New Zealand succeeded with Corvid 19, but it is some isolated islands, which they isolated even more, and it was summer time.

I could list a whole lot of things, but I think that vitamin "D" has chances of being some of the answer.

And from what I see, this has been a wonderful party for the alpha types, who do not a problem to be solved except that they should become in charge of something. Some of them have no interest in that process ever ending.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-05-09 10:37:09)

GW Johnson · 2020-05-09 13:51:07

We still know very little that we can trust to be correct about this Sars-CoV-2 virus. It's similar to what was called SARS, but it is NOT the same. None of these are. The infamous 1918 influenza was actually a variant of the more recent H1N1, with more infectivity and lethality.

We know that SARS-CoV-2 does not exist as exposed bare airborne virus particles (fortunately for us). We do NOT know that having been infected confers any immunity, and if it does, to what extent that immunity extends. If there is no immunity, then there is likely no vaccine feasible. In which case only a therapy is a realistic possibility. Sorry. But that's just the scientific truth.

Wearing masks is certainly advised, NOT to protect the mask wearer, but to protect those around him. This virus propagates airborne within respiratory droplets, which are about the same size range as the porosity in any filter material that you can actually breathe through. The virus particles themselves are 1 to 2 orders of magnitude smaller yet.

It would appear that persons infected are infectious to others for a week or two, before they ever show symptoms, if they ever show any symptoms at all. There would appear to be a significant number infected who are infectious, who never show symptoms. That's anecdotal, but it is a very real risk. See "Typhoid Mary".

There is at least some reason to believe that it is a product of number of droplets breathed in, multiplied by the time interval during which you breathe them, that is the measure of how likely you are to become infected. So close contact multiplied by significant close contact time, is the thing we really have to reduce, in order to interrupt disease transmission.

Such is possible for some, but not all, businesses. It varies with the details of how those businesses operate in detail. Those that can interrupt disease transmission, I have no problem with re-opening immediately, so long as the disease transmission interruption protocols are followed. Other businesses cannot do this, for very fundamental reasons, and so must remain closed for the duration. Unfortunate, but true. I see no way around that.

It really is that simple in concept. Which in turn is really that difficult to do in practice.

It could be far worse: the SARS-CoV-2 virus particles could survive airborne as bare virus particles, the way measles and chickenpox do. In which case just entering the room where someone is infected will infect everyone else in that room, too.

It is this kind of science (basic physics, chemistry, and biology) which is why the anti-vacciners are so full of shit.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2020-05-09 13:54:53)

Void · 2020-05-09 14:31:21

I appreciate your information, I am still trying to get a better grasp of this whole thing. In is in the nature of my personality that I hate not being at a solution I trust.

I will make one assertion. And then limit the certainty of it.

There is some ambiguity as to the results of https://patch.com/new-jersey/pointpleas … ate-5-9-20

It was done for the Spanish Flue 1918?

From what I have read, the results are spotty.

You may have read my utterances previously, I think that their could be two or one, useful effect from blood plasma treatments.

1) Antibodies
2) Young blood effects.

It seems I have read that at least most infected people develop antibodies.

So, spottiness of effectiveness could be due to the effectiveness of the antibodies to what is infecting the treated person, or it also could be due to the age of the blood plasma donor.

I am like that, when I would try to determine a measurement, it is very important to try to understand what the other factors are that may distort it, the measurement, in this case, of effectiveness, and source of achievement.

To me, it is of course hoped that antibodies are part of it, but....

Also, if you can temporarily make a sick person's body behave as if it were younger than it is, for this virus that could be very important, as old people tend to die from it more easily.

It drives me nuts when people cannot untangle all of what might be going on.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-05-09 14:40:16)

SpaceNut · 2020-05-09 17:37:32

We are now finding not only does this virus attack young to old but we are also seeing that if you do get it that immunity to it is assured as blood testing has shown a wide variety of antibodies from none to lots. Its also appears that you can get it more than once.
Something new effecting children is another virus that is something like one seen from Japan in the past. We have about 2000 with it and 3 deaths thus far. Some believe that its riding with the corona.
I agree with you void on why does not a drug store have masks to sell of course here comes the hoarding and price gouging by those that have little respect for others. Wife ordered some back in the beginning of April and they are expected to arrive in mid June. Luckily the family is not traveling a lot unprotected but to a few small convenient quick marts to limit chance of exposure.

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