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This new topic is a branch from the Alternative Transportation topic of Void.
I would like to thank Void for the inspiration to start thinking along these lines.
This new topic is intended to serve as the basis for development of a cargo and passenger landing service at Mars.
The intent is to determine if a landing system as imagined in Void's topic is feasible for delivery of material and passengers to the surface of Mars.
The system, if proven feasible, would appear likely to be Safe, Reliable, Inexpensive and Popular.
In contrast with "traditional" landing systems, which involve placing cargo and passengers at great risk using a combination of atmosphere braking and rocket propulsion, this system builds on Void's idea of a "bubble" containing a gas.
It has been established (reference Google: atmosphere of Mars searches) that the atmosphere of Mars at its most dense is comparable to an altitude of about 38 kilometers above the surface of the Earth.
It has been established (reference Google: history of hydrogen balloon flights on Earth) that a hydrogen filled balloon has achieved stable buoyancy at 53 kilometers above the surface of the Earth.
The hypothesis I am pursuing with this topic is that a properly constructed balloon can descend from a Dead Stop (with respect to the surface of Mars) at the altitude of Phobos, to arrive at the surface of Mars with a match of buoyancy compared to the weight of the vehicle and payload.
In this scenario, every part of the vehicle would become part of the customer deliverables:
1) The cargo would arrive in a protective case (this could include passengers)
2) The gas inside the balloon would be collected and used for industrial processes on Mars (the candidate gas is hydrogen)
3) The material of the balloon itself would be collected and adapted for use as roofing or enclosure material for habitats, greenhouses or work areas.
Edit#1: Invitations to consider this topic have been extended to persons not currently members of the forum.
For those visitors, here is a link to a post in the topic created by member Void, where soft landing by balloon on Mars first came to light as a possibility.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 69#p167469
(th)
Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-04-21 11:27:14)
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I did wonder about the possibility of non-rocket landings on Mars from Phobos, when you mentioned water exporting to Phobos.
I was thinking further ahead to when Mars's atmosphere might be partially terraformed, and you might be able to effectively glide down to the surface.
Not so far from the idea of a balloon getting to the surface with current atmospheric pressure.
If it was possible it might be a much better method of getting humans to the surface.
Once you have ISRU Mars agriculture and industry on the surface of the planet, you don't need humans to bring huge supplies with them, so it makes sense then to have Phobos as a stopping off point where passengers would transfer to a far less energy-expensive mode of transport to the surface, while the Interplanetary Transport Craft can return to Earth to pick up more passengers from LEO.
This new topic is a branch from the Alternative Transportation topic of Void.
I would like to thank Void for the inspiration to start thinking along these lines.
This new topic is intended to serve as the basis for development of a cargo and passenger landing service at Mars.
The intent is to determine if a landing system as imagined in Void's topic is feasible for delivery of material and passengers to the surface of Mars.
The system, if proven feasible, would appear likely to be Safe, Reliable, Inexpensive and Popular.
In contrast with "traditional" landing systems, which involve placing cargo and passengers at great risk using a combination of atmosphere braking and rocket propulsion, this system builds on Void's idea of a "bubble" containing a gas.
It has been established (reference Google: atmosphere of Mars searches) that the atmosphere of Mars at its most dense is comparable to an altitude of about 38 kilometers above the surface of the Earth.
It has been established (reference Google: history of hydrogen balloon flights on Earth) that a hydrogen filled balloon has achieved stable buoyancy at 53 kilometers above the surface of the Earth.
The hypothesis I am pursuing with this topic is that a properly constructed balloon can descend from a Dead Stop (with respect to the surface of Mars) at the altitude of Phobos, to arrive at the surface of Mars with a match of buoyancy compared to the weight of the vehicle and payload.
In this scenario, every part of the vehicle would become part of the customer deliverables:
1) The cargo would arrive in a protective case (this could include passengers)
2) The gas inside the balloon would be collected and used for industrial processes on Mars (the candidate gas is hydrogen)
3) The material of the balloon itself would be collected and adapted for use as roofing or enclosure material for habitats, greenhouses or work areas.(th)
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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For Louis re #2 ...
Thank you for your encouragement of this new topic!
If it was possible it might be a much better method of getting humans to the surface.
At this point, the work has not been done (here on the forum, for sure). It may well have been done thoroughly elsewhere.
Objectives to be reached in the weeks ahead would include:
1) Study of the Earth test case
2) Study of the range of balloon sizes and payloads which might be available, including the human passenger capability
3) Study of the types of material which might be ideal or at least workable for the balloon envelope
Along the way, a way to configure software to create models may become available. That would (or could) save a lot of time.
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The ubiquitous weather balloon is a focus of today's post in this topic.
A Google search for "weather balloon" yielded 73+ million results, of which the top page is most pertinent, as usual.
Weather balloon - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org › wiki › Weather_balloon
A weather or sounding balloon is a balloon (specifically a type of high-altitude balloon) that carries instruments aloft to send back information on atmospheric pressure, temperature, humidity and wind speed by means of a small, expendable measuring device called a radiosonde.
A citation of an actual flight of a weather balloon reports an altitude achieved of 105,798 feet, or over 32 kilometers.
That means the balloon was stable in position not far below the altitude of interest of 38 kilometers.
Such a balloon should serve as a reasonable model for a descent vehicle for the Mars case.
Also on the top page of results is an advertisement from a vendor of weather balloons:
Weather Balloons for Sale | Meteorological Balloons for Salewww.scientificsales.com › Meteorological-Weather-Sou...
High altitude weather balloons will handle storage of up to 7 years in a temperate, dimly lit room. Our weather balloon kits come ready to use; no pre-flight ...
An objective for this topic could be to raise funds and establish relationships with the various agencies and individuals who could enable a Dead Drop test of the survivability of such a balloon.
There are a number of companies engaged in providing rocket launches these days, so a sounding rocket is certainly a viable option.
However, by far the most attractive option would be to secure a ride on one of the Blue Origin vehicles.
The opportunity for Blue Origin to develop a safe, reliable, gentle landing system for Mars might be incentive enough for them to support a venture along these lines.
Another similar opportunity would be to secure a ride on one of SpaceX first stage boosters.
A quick Google search "what altitude is meco for SpaceX Falcon 9" yielded a NASA report:
Launch and Ascent
Approximately 158 seconds into flight, the first-stage engines are shut down, an event known as main-engine cutoff, or MECO. At this point, Falcon 9 is 80 kilometers (50 miles) high, traveling at 10 times the speed of sound.Falcon 9 Rocket - NASAw
A Dead Drop at 80 kilometers would not be possible from a Falcon 9 first stage, but horizontal velocity would be minimized at the moment when the vehicle has completed retro-rocket firing to return to the launch platform at the Cape. The balloon in that case would descend over the ocean, and ultimately drift out to sea.
A flight on a New Shephard would have the advantage of retrieval of the test package on land, although even there the balloon would likely travel for a significant distance before it lands. That could be alleviated by introducing a controlled slow leak to accelerate the descent.
Edit #1: Here is a link to Blue Origin's cargo information page:
https://www.blueorigin.com/new-shepard/ … -payloads/
Edit #2: It is not clear that release of a package by New Shepard's capsule is an option. In fact, I get the impression it is NOT.
However, the company might be willing to include a release package between the booster and the capsule, since (at present) there is no thruster below the capsule.
Edit #3: I submitted an inquiry regarding an experiment release option. Any reply will be posted in this topic.
(th)
Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-04-21 13:59:06)
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