2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

tahanson43206 · 2020-04-01 06:54:41

For Terraformer re #225 ...

Yesterday I caught a detailed interview with people involved in defense of Hong Kong. The interview was interesting because the people of that small geographic region have taken defense almost entirely into their own hands, due to the ineffective wishy washy government. The interview explained that the people are still shell-shocked from an outbreak of something severe in (about?2004) .... The population as a whole, without any guidance except bitter memory, implemented severe procedures and practices to block spread of the virus. The main complaint I caught was that the government failed to block flow of persons from outside the territory in a timely manner.

Meanwhile, another news report showed the astonishing behavior of the dictator of Belarus, who has decided to ignore ALL the danger signals, and to instruct his population to carry out activities as usual. This despite the much more sensible example of Russia, which is ruled by a man with a well developed respect for Science, and which is locking down with precision.

(th)

kbd512 · 2020-04-01 08:44:04

tahanson43206,

That's un-possible for a place with centralized planning. What you're describing sounds like every man and woman for their self, yet this is what communism was supposed to prevent. It sounds like what you're saying is that an all-powerful central government still failed miserably to do what our regressives think a communist government will do for them.

Russia thinks global warming is a sham, but Russians do pay attention to what their government tells them to do because their government murders them if they don't. Please tell me that's not what you want for Americans.

Are you saying we need better quality dictators, like Putin, over here in America?

You do realize that Putin simply "disappears" his detractors in their media, right?

louis · 2020-04-01 09:03:32

Exactly my view Terraformer. Of course these are all countries with strong Civil Defence systems because of the threat of sudden attack by N Korea or China. That would probably help. I believe both UK and USA used to have Civil Defence organisations which were then closed down - a v. shortsighted approach. We don't know enough about the cosmos, the Earth, or society for that matter to close down Civil Defence! There was that interstellar object that came uncomfortably close not so long ago. Something like that could obliterate half the planet.

Terraformer wrote:

As far as I know, South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan aren't on lockdown. Yet they've got a far better handle on the situation than we have here in the west.
Maybe, just maybe, East Asians aren't a different species to Europeans that has some special immunity? Maybe the difference is because they're doing something different, something that we could copy?
Just a thought.

kbd512 · 2020-04-01 12:23:02

Louis,

What you're describing is the reason that The Founders recognized was the purpose of the unorganized militia, which was to be led by the local Police or Sheriff. They realized that a central government couldn't be in all places at all times, so their model for how to run disaster response for the country was to have local organizations, not directly related or influenced by the national government, that could take care of local problems in the areas where those people lived. Our Civil Defense Corps was a national organization primarily intended to protect individual communities in times of war. The national government provided materiel and training to Civil Defense (gas masks, radiation counters for surveying, medical training, etc) and Civil Defense was then responsible for ensuring that everyone in their community had adequate training and preparation to deal with expected disasters scenarios, one of which was a viral outbreak, believe it or not. It wasn't just running to fallout shelters or shooting back at foreign invaders, it also included such varied tasks as clearing roads so the military could reinforce individual towns or cities, search and rescue, and treating the sick or injured. These were unpaid additional responsibilities related to the war effort that were assigned to individual citizens. Our military was never supposed to fight on American soil unless something went horribly wrong. The Sheriff or Chief of Police, with the Mayor or Governor, was supposed to spearhead civil defense-related activities using the Civil Defense Corps staff, local medical staff, state guard, and deputized citizens who were tasked with repelling foreign invaders and tending to or evacuating the injured. The national army and militia / national guard were intended to bear the brunt of the fighting. That structure existed because The Founders knew it took considerable time to mobilize an army, yet the citizens were the ones supplying the national army.

By about the 1980's or so, many of those local civil defense organizations were disbanded under the never-proven theory that the national army, national guard, state guard, and local policing forces should be able to handle any disaster or foreign invasion scenarios. I think it should be a question of how much potential damage a virus or foreign invasion could do before our national forces inevitably gain the upper hand. I think we've already seen just how much damage can be done. I think Hawaii and Guam still have a Civil Defense Corps, but that's about it.

kbd512 · 2020-04-01 12:41:22

Well, here's an absolute shocker:

The US intelligence community has reportedly concluded that China intentionally misrepresented its coronavirus numbers

According to Wuhan residents, there are tens of thousands of funeral urns being delivered to local funeral homes and their incinerators have been running 24/7 since COVID-19 appeared there. I'm guessing that the actual death toll is at least 50,000. Prior to COVID-19, they incinerated 220 people per day in Wuhan. Their funeral homes can incinerate a maximum of 1,560 bodies per day using 84 incinerators. All seven of their funeral homes have been handing out 3,500 urns per day for over 12 days now and said they've been receiving shipments of funeral urns in lots of 5,000. That means people have been dropping like flies from something else or the actual COVID-19 death toll in China has been grossly under-reported by their government.

louis · 2020-04-01 17:12:49

Most people who have died with Covid-19 in their lungs are at or near the end of life in any case and will have a number of other pathogens in their lungs. It would be the simplest thing in the world to say: "Put that one down as flu, and that one as pneumonia, that one as heart failure and the other one as asthma..." . And of course China has both the formal and informal means to make sure that whatever it is the Communist government desires is said to have happened. It's no different from the Great Leap Forward when China recorded (illusory) massive grain surpluses while 20 million starved to death.

kbd512 wrote:

Well, here's an absolute shocker:
The US intelligence community has reportedly concluded that China intentionally misrepresented its coronavirus numbers
According to Wuhan residents, there are tens of thousands of funeral urns being delivered to local funeral homes and their incinerators have been running 24/7 since COVID-19 appeared there. I'm guessing that the actual death toll is at least 50,000. Prior to COVID-19, they incinerated 220 people per day in Wuhan. Their funeral homes can incinerate a maximum of 1,560 bodies per day using 84 incinerators. All seven of their funeral homes have been handing out 3,500 urns per day for over 12 days now and said they've been receiving shipments of funeral urns in lots of 5,000. That means people have been dropping like flies from something else or the actual COVID-19 death toll in China has been grossly under-reported by their government.

SpaceNut · 2020-04-01 18:14:43

If you do not test any labeling of the cause is arbitrary. My small state is still early in death rate so they are going back over those that did die to do tests to find out which cause was the reason for the death.

We are also seeing an increase of outer state vehicles from all over the nation slowly arriving to NH.

There is no means to identify whom did or did not quarantine after coming here from a high infection zone.

The other striking item I was hearing today was that most of those put on a ventilator can vary for how long they will need to be on it anywhere from 7 to 21 days and many do not recover...

kbd512 · 2020-04-01 18:46:50

Louis and SpaceNut,

It's not the fact that the cause of death isn't revealed, it's the sheer number of deaths compared to the number of people they were incinerating during an average day before COVID-19 really took hold. Maybe it's pollution or a major industrial accident or something else, but the only other thing that we know of that's raising the death rates is COVID-19.

SpaceNut · 2020-04-01 20:54:18

This is what we do know about our immune system. 13 Surprising Things That Can Affect Your Immune System

17 Small and Easy Ways to Prevent Coronavirus.

Something else that is sad is the state or condition of the ventilators being delivered from the National Stock System.

A Ventilator Stockpile, With One Hitch: Thousands Do Not Work

federal officials have neglected to mention is that an additional 2,109 lifesaving devices are unavailable after the contract to maintain the government’s stockpile lapsed late last summer, and a contracting dispute meant that a new firm did not begin its work until late January

Otherwise good numbers of PPE have been delivered to many different states to make use of even if they calculate that they will need more.

SpaceNut · 2020-04-02 17:39:38

Found my states comprehensive list of essential business that need to stay open while the corona virus has the remaining in a stay at home situation

What is an 'essential business'? State officials provide list

SpaceNut · 2020-04-03 12:18:29

Supplies for some PPE are improving in that we are getting companies to get creative in collectively making masks of all types as College student a senior Ashley Lawrence sews face masks designed for the deaf and hard of hearing community

Others are do it yourself as well and now the news may be that all should wear something.... as we are learning that even the speaking and heavy breathing the assymptomatic are spreading the disease to others. The science shows that we still have much to learn.

We might think that we are being protected by distance but we know that its not so easy. A detroit Bus Driver who posted a video of a rider coughing has died in a short 2 weeks.

The video goes on to say that " feel violated by the passenger not coughing their mouth" is sad to say....after tell that passenger to cover it.
I guess its easier to tell a child to do so than a grown adult.

Not sure why these states are waiting but here is the article 9 states have yet to issue formal stay-at-home orders amid coronavirus

SpaceNut · 2020-04-03 18:49:58

People can be quite inventive in time of need and creating an app seems quite appropriate for detection and protection with the right sensing unit to add to a computer in most everyones pocket.
Could wearables like Apple Watch, Fitbit fitness trackers help detect coronavirus?

why not....

With the changing scene of life under this disease we might rethink not protecting ones self
New face mask guidance comes after battle between White House and CDC

https://medium.com/@Cancerwarrior/covid … 0e08ceee71

1*m_a-cX7BpzAOg5YpyDa_ZA.png

louis · 2020-04-03 19:03:33

You get excess mortality all the time for various reasons including inclement weather and flu viruses. We had a spike in the UK in January. Since then (to mid March) there's been no excess mortality (despite Covid-19). Rather than focussing on Covid-19 deaths, we should be focussing on excess mortality. If there is a real spike in excess mortality compared with say a five year average for the same time of year, then you know you have a major problem. But the reality is a lot of the Covid-19 infections are piggy-backing on other infections of the lungs of other parts which would kill the patient within three months in any case. It might be a many as 75% of Covid-19 deaths are really "multiple failure" deaths that would happen anyway.

kbd512 wrote:

Louis and SpaceNut,
It's not the fact that the cause of death isn't revealed, it's the sheer number of deaths compared to the number of people they were incinerating during an average day before COVID-19 really took hold. Maybe it's pollution or a major industrial accident or something else, but the only other thing that we know of that's raising the death rates is COVID-19.

kbd512 · 2020-04-03 23:54:44

Louis,

Anything is possible, but some explanations are more probable than others.

louis · 2020-04-04 05:00:07

Data from Italy suggests 98% of so called Covid-19 victims have other underlying health conditions and half of those have THREE or more.
Covid-19 is just often another blow to the system that the ailing body can't take. These are facts not speculation, also verified by the average age of victims - over 80 in Italy.

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,
Anything is possible, but some explanations are more probable than others.

kbd512 · 2020-04-04 07:08:23

Louis,

The virus may have been the straw that broke the camel's back, but the camel is still dead. I don't think we should get too creative whilst trying to ignore that fact. I think that's what the Chinese are doing. Our government-run VA hospitals over here do that kind of "creative attribution", as it pertains to cause of death for veterans. And yes, once you reach a certain age you're essentially living on borrowed time and damn near anything can kill you. The thing that seems to be killing those people as of late are complications related to COVID-19.

SpaceNut · 2020-04-04 08:56:37

louis wrote:

Data from Italy suggests 98% of so called Covid-19 victims have other underlying health conditions and half of those have THREE or more.
Covid-19 is just often another blow to the system that the ailing body can't take. These are facts not speculation, also verified by the average age of victims - over 80 in Italy.

What do you want to do with that data, do you see a way to fix the ailments in that 98% of those struck down, whats your plan?

We know a huge amount about the causes for those in that group and yet we do not work on cures.
We value the dollar above cleaning up our sources of pollutions that cause many of the ailments.
We know that some is self inflicted so where is the physcological corrections?

The current model of medical care is here is your bandaid and live with the chronic ailment for as long as you can as we do not have a fix.

tahanson43206 · 2020-04-04 09:16:31

For SpaceNut re the current challenge ....

Best wishes to you and your family to avoid being tested by this virus. The role you are playing here, of nipping spammers in the bud, while encouraging members to contribute in whatever way they can, is vital to the continued success of the forum.

For kbd512 ... the same to you (of course) and thanks for helping SpaceNut with the spam nipping!

To those who have reported dealing with the virus, best wishes for success in combating the invader, and for recovery without permanent damage.

For everyone else, best wishes for avoiding the virus until protection is available.

I did see a report recently that a spray for the throat, developed to try to prevent ordinary flu, may be effective against this virus. The product has been pulled from the market while it undergoes testing for this threat. I would expect it would be given to health workers if it is proven effective, but production should increase thereafter.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-04-04 09:33:02

I think you are talking about the use of Chloraseptic (phenol oral spray and rinse) to create a virus killing internal barrier at the end of the nasal passages and the brochital tubes such as to so or prevent the flow of infected air with desease out of our system.

https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-1451 … ne/details

I would think that a wet mask with lysol style virus killing solution on it in low amounts such as to create a viral killing barrier would work well. Make a pocket for a wipe to be inserted into the outer layer of a cloth mask and you are as protected as you might be with the barrier.

edit
This is a multiple facet fix to assymptomatic spread and as a protection. The fact that dropplets would be caught in the mask that would kill the virus would drop the risk to all. The mask barrier created for the normal does reduce the risk for the not infected.

Do Lysol wipes and spray kill coronavirus? The EPA has a list of disinfectants that work against COVID-19.

California has now started giving donated blood plasma from confirmed survives of corona virus to patients in the ICU. It is already showing promising results for its use by getting blood from healthy survivers.

tahanson43206 · 2020-04-04 09:48:42

For SpaceNut re #244

Thank you for an interesting suggestion ... it reminded me of activated carbon masks that US Army recruits get to wear during tear gas training.

Here is a link to a protected story about rapid development of active killing masks:
https://fortune.com/2020/03/29/coronavi … -covid-19/

The teaser shows that there is some serious research going on. Your basic idea appears to have significant merit.

“Current masks don’t destroy the virus, that’s why they’ve been recommended for single use, but practically it is impossible to change the mask every few hours,” said Choi Hyo-jick, an assistant professor in the Department of Chemical and Materials Engineering at the University of Alberta. Choi has been working on a product that can provide an anti-viral coating to surgical masks to make them safer. The secret ingredient is salt.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-04-04 09:51:33)

kbd512 · 2020-04-04 11:14:56

SpaceNut wrote:

What do you want to do with that data, do you see a way to fix the ailments in that 98% of those struck down, whats your plan?

ACCEPT THE SIMPLE FACT THAT ELDERLY PEOPLE WITH LOTS OF MEDICAL PROBLEMS ARE GOING TO DIE, WITH OR WITHOUT A NEW VIRUS. WHETHER THAT HAPPENS NOW, SIX MONTHS FROM NOW, OR A YEAR FROM NOW, THE RESULT WILL BE THE SAME.

SpaceNut wrote:

We know a huge amount about the causes for those in that group and yet we do not work on cures.

Since we haven't developed any "cures", obviously we don't know as much as you think we do. Once again, don't let that mountain of evidence between you and your belief system get in your way. Go out there and cure cancer.

SpaceNut wrote:

We value the dollar above cleaning up our sources of pollutions that cause many of the ailments.

Yes we do- and for a very good reason. People who are starving to death don't get to spend their "free time", of which they have very little on account of always looking for their next meal, worrying about climate change or the next new disease. They're too busy fighting to stay alive. Once the entire society has accumulated enough wealth to send their kids off to college to be brainwashed by the same evil communist clowns who have taken over your favorite political party, then shortly after those clowns take over a previously prosperous society, they once again drive it into abject poverty and the entire cycle repeats itself. Despite all that "education" you received, precious few of you have actually "learned" anything.

SpaceNut wrote:

We know that some is self inflicted so where is the physcological corrections?

There is no psychological correction. You're watching human psychology in action and have been from the day you were born. Go out there and figure out how to stop tens of millions of Americans from eating themselves to death, or to convince them to take their medications as directed by their doctor(s). Go figure out why it takes the better part of a billion dollars to bring any new drug to market here in America.

Stop asking these utterly pointless questions and go out there and implement the solution. I don't mean complain about the fact that someone else hasn't figured it out yet, I mean you, personally, go out and implement the solution or don't complain about the fact that no one else has. Why must it always be someone else's responsibility to fix life's various problems for liberal regressives?

SpaceNut wrote:

The current model of medical care is here is your bandaid and live with the chronic ailment for as long as you can as we do not have a fix.

That's always been the model, bubba. We do prevention and treatment these days, but very little else. There's no money to be made off of most cures, whereas those people you look at as "god" can make a decent living off of merely keeping you alive. It might also have something to do with what the cure would cost (see above). Beyond that, take note of the fact that socialized health care systems don't seem to come up with much in the way of new drugs and treatments, although they do tend to make existing treatments less expensive. All that's done over here, where there's at least a chance to profit off of your hard work. I know you expect all of those people who go to medical school to work for you for free out of the goodness of their hearts, but since your liberal regressive buddies managed to make Christianity a dirty word and you're not willing to pay their bills, we don't seem to have nearly so many people motivated by love and compassion for their fellow man, do we?

SpaceNut · 2020-04-04 11:57:17

Kbd512 its not just the elderly that are dieing from the virus and the data is just that an indicator of those that are not strong enough to fight the virus off without some form of help.

In this case using the plasma of those that were tested and survive should have been used to solve that problem but seems it was not tried. It is being done now with those in an ICU out in california with signs showing that its working as the blood oxygen levels are improving on those patients that recieved the plasma and that they are not still heading for death.

People over money, masks being made in the LLBean corporation in Maine for the state needs of hospital and medical professionals giving them away and in time the general public may see these as a sale able product with fashionable design or prints. These are being put into the testing to certify there use for medical compliance.

Getting a nation that has been hit by the virus will take as In Italy, Going Back to Work May Depend on Having the Right Antibodies and its going to be true for others as well.

kbd512 · 2020-04-04 12:49:58

SpaceNut,

By numbers, most of the people dying are elderly and/or have pre-existing conditions. Finding an exception to the rule does nothing to disprove the rule. The rule still stands. The overwhelming majority of the people who end up dead are elderly and/or have other preexisting medical conditions that complicate treatment. The death rate does not exceed one half of one percent for confirmed COVID-19 infections until the age of 50! Furthermore, it's far less deadly than a heart attack is and nobody takes the slightest issue with literally eating themselves to death.

Age, Sex, Existing Conditions of COVID-19 Cases and Deaths

The numbers don't care about your normalcy bias. They are what they are.

Your suggestion about using the antibodies to try to come up with a vaccine or other treatment is already underway and you'd know that if you actually paid attention to what the doctors said during the various press conferences. The reason they didn't immediately start injecting people in ICU with antibodies from previously infected people is because that has the potential to make the problem worse, just like a poorly designed vaccine (which is why we spend so much time and money testing them).

That's why more testing of any new vaccine or treatment, which can't happen in a day or a week or even a month, is required. The fact that President Trump and/or Congress had the "right to try" protocol enacted for the terminally ill doesn't change the fact that real knowledge of the efficacy of any given drug or treatment only comes from actual testing. If it were up to me, I would not allow for the idiocy of Stanford Science, in that I would not demand the presence of a control group who would not be given an efficacious treatment after we inject them with the virus if their condition deteriorates. Since moronism wasn't mandated to "prove" that Aspirin works, moronism doesn't have to be applied to COVID-19 treatments, either.

SpaceNut · 2020-04-04 13:21:43

What the link was pointing out was whom should go back to work as a function of testing and for whom are now well. Not whom should be treated with the antibody....and yes I know of the testing that is ongoing....

Even in the face of the virus america is going to survive as the PPE is coming and jobs are being created even if only short term to deal with production levels required. GM turns gutted, shuttered Warren plant into face mask supplier with the makers wearing it as well.

GM is also working with medical device maker Ventec Life Systems to make lifesaving ventilators at GM's plant in Kokomo, Indiana.

kbd512 · 2020-04-04 17:53:26

SpaceNut,

I like what I've been seeing and making more of our own medical supplies is certainly a good start, but I don't think we're going to run the entire American economy off of making face masks and ventilators. People need to take their face masks, if that's what gives them their warm and fuzzy so they can focus on bigger problems, and go back to work.

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#226 2020-04-01 06:54:41

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

#227 2020-04-01 08:44:04

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#228 2020-04-01 09:03:32

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#229 2020-04-01 12:23:02

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#230 2020-04-01 12:41:22

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#231 2020-04-01 17:12:49

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#233 2020-04-01 18:46:50

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#234 2020-04-01 20:54:18

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#235 2020-04-02 17:39:38

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#237 2020-04-03 18:49:58

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#238 2020-04-03 19:03:33

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#239 2020-04-03 23:54:44

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#242 2020-04-04 08:56:37

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#243 2020-04-04 09:16:31

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#244 2020-04-04 09:33:02

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#245 2020-04-04 09:48:42

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#246 2020-04-04 11:14:56

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#247 2020-04-04 11:57:17

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