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tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,443

In-Space Construction Techniques / Robotic Construction

The article at the link below reports on a test planned for a near future SpaceX launch, to test a robotic metal working system.

The company behind the test has proposed making habitats out of used rocket bodies.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/nano … 48615.html

While this is not about Mars directly, it would seem supportive of the Mars project.

***
On March 28, in the midst of the Corona Virus Pandemic, this topic was expanded to include development of telepresence/teleoperation capability on Earth.

In order for the United States (and other nations) to safely return to full production in factories and other industries, it would be helpful if workers could operate machinery safely and reliably from home, using the Internet to mediate message traffic.

A possible term for the type of equipment that will (quite likely) come into being is "Waldo"

I am dissatisfied with this term as it is currently defined in wikipedia:

waldo - Wiktionaryen.wiktionary.org › wiki › waldo
Noun. waldo (plural waldos or waldoes) A remote manipulation system in which a slave device mimics the motions of a master device manipulated directly by the operator.

What I have in mind is a "full service" remote "presence" for a human being.  A hint of what this equipment might look like is available in the remote conference attendance robotic devices already widely used.  In these devices, only mobility is implemented as a Waldo capability, while telepresence itself is fully expressed, with the ability to exchange video and audio communication, and to show an image of the operator at the remote location.

Members of the NewMars forum are invited to contribute to this topic:

1) Examples of new implementations of Waldo-like devices in actual practice
2) Examples of research studies for possible implementation in practice
3) Visions of how such devices might work and how they might be deployed

Readers of the forum who are not yet members, and who feel they can make a useful contribution are invited to register.

Registration is normally quite easy, but occasionally an applicant may not receive the "first password' by email.  If that happens, there may be a problem that can be solved/avoided by changing the email service you are using, or the name you have chosen.  Once you are connected by an alternate pathway, you can report the difficulty you had initially.

There should be enormous economic opportunity for millions of human beings, as this technology grows in popularity.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-03-29 07:36:32)

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: In-Space Construction Techniques / Robotic Construction

here is a repost of robotics fro gardening

For SpaceNut re this topic ...

Here is an update on automation of agriculture ...

The article is longish.  The detail I picked up on is the really interesting idea of measuring the growth of each ** individual ** plant.  This is something that was not practical before the present age of cloud computing and inexpensive data storage.

This technique seems particularly appropriate for Mars, where the greenhouses are likely to be operated at pressures below what humans will prefer.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/growing-pres … 47119.html

(th)

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: In-Space Construction Techniques / Robotic Construction

Nice robotic automated crop unit

I was in a walmart the other day and in the ailse was a robotic floor cleaning unit. The unit had 6 -8 camera's on it to detect people and other obstructions in the lane of travel. The unit was going from one to the next ailse with multiple sweeps within the same one to asure its total floor area was cleaned in the process.

The Select Walmart stores have autonomous robots that track inventory

Ok so I got it wrong as to what the robot was doing but they do have them for cleaning and its like a zambony.

That means we need depth perception as well as lane width defining with its own internal ability to tell where it is in the blueprint of the total greenhouse that we would have a unit attending to to.

That said it appears its a matter of building the unit and test trials of it from the existing for a mars altered unit.

edit
We have come a long ways with robotics machines that are single purpose application made and we will continue to perfect them for the various uses in that we can to replace grunt force of manpower. These create the new issue of powering and of course waste stream issues for the machines and power sources as well as the manufacturing on mars in time from insitu materials.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: In-Space Construction Techniques / Robotic Construction

Nice robotic

For SpaceNut re Telepresence/Teleoperation

This is a topic that would apply to Mars as well as the Earth.  People inside comfortable habitats on Mars are very likely to perform a wide variety of tasks remotely. 

The present biological emergency on Earth could be alleviated to a considerable extend if telepresence/teleoperation robots were further along.  Any number of jobs could be carried out by telepresence/teleoperation equipment operated from the employee's home.  One example of countless ones is selecting food on supermarket shelves for customers to pick up at the front door. 

If you are interested in seeing if this potential new topic has legs, please consider where it might go in the newmars structure.

If your employer were equipped to use telepresence/teleoperation equipment, they would provide you with the high speed fiber connection needed to support their operations, and you would enjoy that connection for personal use after hours, as a benefit of the new way of working.

This would hold true for many millions of workers in the global economy.

Edit#1: The type of capability I am talking about is illustrated by US Military (and CIA) drone operators.  They are experiencing "telepresence" in the sense that they are seeing the terrain where they are operating, and they are operating the vehicle.

From Google:

Telepresence refers to a set of technologies which allow a person to feel as if they were present, to give the appearance that they were present, or to have an effect, at a location other than their true location. Teleoperation is the operation of a machine at a distance.

telepresence, teleoperation & telerobotics - IDC Technologieswww.idc-online.com › pdfs › electronic_engineering › Telepresence_...
PDF

For an employee to be productive in a remote situation, they would need both capabilities. 

We (those of us who have smart phones or computers with Internet connection) can experience telepresence already.  What is needed for an economy built on telepresence/teleoperation is the capability to operate whatever equipment is on site in the employer facility.  That might (as just one example) consist of a smart fork lift, which would allow the remote operator to pick up and deliver pallets.

(th)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,443

Re: In-Space Construction Techniques / Robotic Construction

Before telepresence/teleoperation are common practice in space, they are likely to be developed and used on Earth.

To try to clarify, these devices are robots which do NOT operate independently of a human operator. 

Examples from real life on Earth in 2020 are drones used for military operations, and scientific instruments used for undersea exploration while tethered.

The direction I am hoping to head with this topic is toward a greater understanding of the enormous economic potential for use of telepresence/teleoperation on Earth in the age of the Corona Virus epidemic.

For quite some time, picking of fruit and vegetables has been possible using remote telepresence/teleoperation equipment, but it has been cheaper to encourage undocumented persons to take low paying work in the fields to bring in crops.  Now, the economics may swing toward building the networks and equipment so that workers in Mexico (or elsewhere in the United States) can carry out the needed activities remotely.

Much of factory work in the United States and in other developed nations is performed by robotic equipment, but every machine must be supported by a human team, including maintenance personnel and supervisors, and programmers who accept shop orders and parts specifications and translate them for the robots.

What I'm anticipating is that the few jobs that currently require a human on site can be converted to telepresence/teleoperation, so that no human need be insider the factory at all, and it can be sealed off from the outside world.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-03-29 07:19:31)

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,443

Re: In-Space Construction Techniques / Robotic Construction

The following text was added to the opening post for this topic:

***
On March 28, in the midst of the Corona Virus Pandemic, this topic was expanded to include development of telepresence/teleoperation capability on Earth.

In order for the United States (and other nations) to safely return to full production in factories and other industries, it would be helpful if workers could operate machinery safely and reliably from home, using the Internet to mediate message traffic.

A possible term for the type of equipment that will (quite likely) come into being is "Waldo"

I am dissatisfied with this term as it is currently defined in wikipedia:

waldo - Wiktionaryen.wiktionary.org › wiki › waldo
Noun. waldo (plural waldos or waldoes) A remote manipulation system in which a slave device mimics the motions of a master device manipulated directly by the operator.

What I have in mind is a "full service" remote "presence" for a human being.  A hint of what this equipment might look like is available in the remote conference attendance robotic devices already widely used.  In these devices, only mobility is implemented as a Waldo capability, while telepresence itself is fully expressed, with the ability to exchange video and audio communication, and to show an image of the operator at the remote location.

Members of the NewMars forum are invited to contribute to this topic:

1) Examples of new implementations of Waldo-like devices in actual practice
2) Examples of research studies for possible implementation in practice
3) Visions of how such devices might work and how they might be deployed

Readers of the forum who are not yet members, and who feel they can make a useful contribution are invited to register.

Registration is normally quite easy, but occasionally an applicant may not receive the "first password' by email.  If that happens, there may be a problem that can be solved/avoided by changing the email service you are using, or the name you have chosen.  Once you are connected by an alternate pathway, you can report the difficulty you had initially.

There should be enormous economic opportunity for millions of human beings, as this technology grows in popularity.

(th)

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: In-Space Construction Techniques / Robotic Construction

From a business stand point its about production costs versus the yeild rate for the equipment which keeps the machines from being produced in quantities to make the price of them to go done.

The second item is time delay for movement for earth there is little but for the same to be done with mars man must be there as well. Our current delay time for mars makes telerobotics a no go for now and instead we are using delay to plot the path for the robots to use between transmission.

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,443

Re: In-Space Construction Techniques / Robotic Construction

For SpaceNut re #7

Thank you for pointing out the business considerations for rapid deployment of telepresence/teleoperation systems.  The need to put the US population back to work should (should) drive cost assessment.  The need to limit undocumented workers should (should) drive consideration of rapid deployment of telepresence/teleoperation systems between the United States and Mexico (in particular but not limited).

The focus on pure robotics seems (to me at least) counter productive.  What (I think) is needed is rapid deployment of remote working equipment for millions of American workers, and billions of workers around the world.

We have talked in the past about the difference between a job creator, and a job holder.

There are very few people qualified to create jobs, compared to the number who are limited to merely holding jobs.

We (the human race) need to dramatically increase the number of job creators, with a focus .... NOT ... on making money, but on putting job holders to work.

Job holders by definition are totally dependent upon job creators to provide a way for them to earn a living.

(th)

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: In-Space Construction Techniques / Robotic Construction

Part of the issue for the US and its border nations is our grass is greener  along one of them so lets keep that in the free chat area in the border topic. South of the border politics

Most of my work for the crews which I supply materials to and for could be done remotely it's the cost of the human replacement should a higher return on the investment and a materials density of storage but thats where that dream falls appart as what automation is coming up with requires a larger footprint and exceeds the cost without a return of efficiency. What I can do with simple stock number labels, material cups or containers and vidmar draws of different depths makes it not a good fit for the change to a system which does not gain efficiency on the Human/equipment version.

A robotic geologist would be a great benefit for mars as its a simple modifcation of existing robotic capability just with the optical interface for the human to make near realtime decisions as we do for our drone systems. You just need the human interface to them close so as to remove the delay. You also need a faster moving robot as well that is robust to take the temperatures and conditions of mars which current rovers show by slow movement need to be improved on.

I think small missions with the correct building blocks can get man to mars even with current versions of technology but a BFR/Starship is decades away and we still need much more to have been done before men can go in them since they have a mass footprint that we can not prove will land successfully on its surface.

Not to get this off from focus for jobs lets continue in the free chat topic. JOBS Jobs Jobs why are there none