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#176 2020-03-23 21:02:18

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,368

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

When did human life become expendable, that no life matters whether its at the beginning or at its end?
Why should doctors and nurses put there life on the line if we are so expendable?
Why are we not seeing a jump in suicides when one thinks the end is near for those feeling that they have it?

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#177 2020-03-24 04:42:34

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,240
Website

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Well, day one of lockdown, though until they actually pass the statutes it's legally more very strong advice.

The rules are:

BritGov wrote:

Shopping for basic necessities such as food and medicine. Shopping trips should be as infrequent as possible

One form of exercise a day such as a run, walk or cycle. This should be done alone or only with people you live with

Any medical need, or to provide care or to help a vulnerable person. This includes moving children under the age of 18 between their parents' homes, where applicable. Key workers or those with children identified as vulnerable can continue to take their children to school

Travelling to and from work, but only where work absolutely cannot be done from home

Even when following the above guidance, people should minimise the amount of time spent out of their homes and should keep two metres (6ft) away from people they do not live with.

The government is also stopping all social events, including weddings, baptisms and other ceremonies - but funerals attended by immediate family members are allowed.

In practice, they won't be able to enforce the first two rules, but people walking their dogs a few times a day aren't really the target. The main point is to be able to break up crowds, such as those seen on Snowdon, and to shut down non-essential retail.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#178 2020-03-24 06:28:58

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,348

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Terraformer,

Your government's list of new rules just described my daily life before all of this happened.

I rather enjoy the lack of throngs of people, but it's also bad for the economy.

Do you find it at all humorous that any government needs to create laws to prevent people from congregating together in large groups when there's a lethal new airborne pathogen we can't contain?  Does that not say something about the baseline stupidity of people?

I've always wanted to remove all the warning labels and laws against baseline stupid behavior, just to see what would happen.  After watching what our college kids were doing over Spring Break before our governors put an end to that, I think I already know what the outcome would be and that takes all the fun out of the experiment.  If we need to tell our college kids that they need to refrain from getting drunk or stoned out of their minds, en masse, for a few weeks or months so that they don't spread disease to the people paying for their party, what does that say about our future?

We need to give everyone free college education, or so Bernie Sanders says...  So, you know, they can then go out to a public beach on Spring Break and spread disease during a global pandemic, proving their moral and intellectual superiority to the rest of us once again.

What good is a college education if the people who come out of the program are still morons?  Do tax payers really need to pay for that?

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#179 2020-03-24 08:24:42

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,368

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Its not just an air borne virus as the cruise ships had closed the rooms that had people which were positive for it and they are still on surfaces after 17 days still with the contagion on them.
Today is day 5 for me and while people will somewhat follow some of the suggestions they will also read between the lines and say well they said stores, restaraunts ect...and not beach so while its was a general clause they figured that it was not included as the words were not there...sort of silly but that is where compliance has gone.
There is test data in there actions in that if the virus can spread and infect under the cold of the ocean we are really in for problems as that shows that we need to test the desease in other environments to see if they are sensitive to them.

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#180 2020-03-24 09:19:31

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,240
Website

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Do you find it at all humorous that any government needs to create laws to prevent people from congregating together in large groups when there's a lethal new airborne pathogen we can't contain?

https://youtu.be/A0Z-efARwhg?t=90

This could have been avoided if they'd told everyone to wear masks, instead. But to try and cover for their incompetent planning, our government opted to lie.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#181 2020-03-24 14:07:49

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,657

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Really this is more about saving the health service than saving people.  It is as you say Terraformer, a result of incompetent planning - despite there actually being an official Government Pandemic Plan we had virtually no extra mechanical ventilators (incredible when you think of the public health crisis we had with the Novochik attack in Salisbury), no large store of PPE, no auxillary staff trained in monitoring ventilators, no support network for people in isolation, no rational plan for testing or expanding testing, and no designated emergency hospital faciltiies. We still don't have a single field hospital up and ready as far as I know.

Had we had all the planning in place, we could have introduced Taiwanese style public health precautions, advised the over 70s and vulnerable to isolate themselves and then gone about our business until herd immunity was established. Instead we have had to crash our economy - killit stone dead - with untold consequences (including of course a lot of early deaths from stress, missed hospital appointments and so on). 

Terraformer wrote:

Do you find it at all humorous that any government needs to create laws to prevent people from congregating together in large groups when there's a lethal new airborne pathogen we can't contain?

https://youtu.be/A0Z-efARwhg?t=90

This could have been avoided if they'd told everyone to wear masks, instead. But to try and cover for their incompetent planning, our government opted to lie.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#182 2020-03-24 14:17:23

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,240
Website

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Well, we were never going to be able to establish herd immunity without crashing the health system, at least not without spending years "flattening the curve". The maths just doesn't work out.

But masks + social distancing would be better than what we've been doing.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#183 2020-03-24 15:24:37

Quaoar
Member
Registered: 2013-12-13
Posts: 485

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

kbd512 wrote:

Terraformer,

Your government's list of new rules just described my daily life before all of this happened.

I rather enjoy the lack of throngs of people, but it's also bad for the economy.

Do you find it at all humorous that any government needs to create laws to prevent people from congregating together in large groups when there's a lethal new airborne pathogen we can't contain?  Does that not say something about the baseline stupidity of people?

I've always wanted to remove all the warning labels and laws against baseline stupid behavior, just to see what would happen.  After watching what our college kids were doing over Spring Break before our governors put an end to that, I think I already know what the outcome would be and that takes all the fun out of the experiment.  If we need to tell our college kids that they need to refrain from getting drunk or stoned out of their minds, en masse, for a few weeks or months so that they don't spread disease to the people paying for their party, what does that say about our future?

We need to give everyone free college education, or so Bernie Sanders says...  So, you know, they can then go out to a public beach on Spring Break and spread disease during a global pandemic, proving their moral and intellectual superiority to the rest of us once again.

What good is a college education if the people who come out of the program are still morons?  Do tax payers really need to pay for that?

Colleges don't teach you how to become intelligent. A moron who goes to college will become an educated moron not a smart person.

Last edited by Quaoar (2020-03-24 15:25:05)

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#184 2020-03-24 15:28:00

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,368

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Terraformer wrote:

Do you find it at all humorous that any government needs to create laws to prevent people from congregating together in large groups when there's a lethal new airborne pathogen we can't contain?

https://youtu.be/A0Z-efARwhg?t=90

This could have been avoided if they'd told everyone to wear masks, instead. But to try and cover for their incompetent planning, our government opted to lie.

We have been getting mixed messages as well on the mask wearing, as well as type to use if you have been educated enough to be able to use them. Next I am sure they will be telling us that we do not know how to wash our hands....

As far as the PPE and ventilators the National stock system is set up to warehouse these items but they use stats to show how many should be ordered by how many are being requested for that ordering replentishment.
Its when the draw exceeds the normal request that it does not work as that is what is what the US is experiencing.

The war powers act is to have clout to get others that have the ability to do so with an end purchaser already to pay for what is made. As the normal business is just trying to help by production ramp up but even that needs to either expand on personnel or on equipment that may not be on the open market.

Terraformer wrote:

Well, we were never going to be able to establish herd immunity without crashing the health system, at least not without spending years "flattening the curve". The maths just doesn't work out.

But masks + social distancing would be better than what we've been doing.

Its to early to tell if social distance and lots more cleaning will work since the epicenters did not react quick enough due to proximity to each others so the numbers in the large cities are going to rise quickly with the infections beginning to show a rise that wee thought we had to time to not see. The issue is for the 2 wk prior to making the change we had been going about business as usual with no idea that we were infecting that whole time up to when we made the change.

I am in day 5 now but will be quite a few weeks before we will know that whether I got infected or not during that time before leaving work due to age and chance to cause harm to family if infected.

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#185 2020-03-24 15:47:46

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,348

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Quaoar,

Alright, I'll bite.

How do you think we should go about teaching young people to make reasonably good context-driven decisions?

I try to teach my own kids to consider the entire context of their decisions when making decisions and that they have to be willing to live with the consequences, too.

Prime Example:
My daughter's teacher taught the kids in her class that they should just take whatever assault some other kid dishes out and not fight back at all because her parents could still be sued by the parents of the kid who initiated the assault / fight.  I told her that if someone assaults her at school, especially if they use any kind of weapon against her, then she has my blessing to fight back if she thinks that's her best option, or not if she thinks fight back is not the best option.  I also told her that if someone just smacks her and then runs away, that doesn't give her an excuse to go chasing after that person and doing to them what he or she did to her.  There's a world of difference between someone trying to pound your head into the pavement like a tent stake and someone slapping you and running away or merely saying something to you that you don't like.

In any situation where she can get her teachers, or the school's principal, or the campus Police, or her father to address the issue, she should do so.  If someone backs her into a corner and tries to club her to death, then I think she should fight back as best she can.  I think standing there and allowing someone to beat you to death is pure idiocy, but apparently that's just me.  Science says people who fight back generally live longer than people who don't, but liberals only believe in science until it conflicts with their emotions or ideology.  Anyway, that's just "uncommon sense" in my book.  There's no single answer to every conceivable problem, especially when lives are at stake.  As I told her in closing, "Welcome to the not-so-black-and-white real world.  Think through what you intend to do very carefully before you arrive at a situation where you only have a split second to act."

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#186 2020-03-24 16:00:54

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,348

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

SpaceNut,

Does anyone from the government really need to tell a grown man or woman not to kiss other people when they're sick or to wash their hands or not to cough and sneeze all over other people when they're sick, or did you, just like me, manage to figure that out all on your own?

Do we really need to tell people to wash their hands after they get feces on them, too?

Unlike politics, this is one issue where I believe in the utility of indoctrination and it seems to me that stuff like washing hands should've been indoctrinated into their behavior pattern from about the age of 5 or so.  I could care less if someone believes the Earth is flat or has a favorite omnipotent deity they ask favors from, but humanity doesn't have much utility for someone who finger paints with their feces.  You understand where I'm going with this, right?

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#187 2020-03-24 16:07:22

Quaoar
Member
Registered: 2013-12-13
Posts: 485

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

kbd512 wrote:

Quaoar,

Alright, I'll bite.

How do you think we should go about teaching young people to make reasonably good context-driven decisions?

I try to teach my own kids to consider the entire context of their decisions when making decisions and that they have to be willing to live with the consequences, too.

Prime Example:
My daughter's teacher taught the kids in her class that they should just take whatever assault some other kid dishes out and not fight back at all because her parents could still be sued by the parents of the kid who initiated the assault / fight.  I told her that if someone assaults her at school, especially if they use any kind of weapon against her, then she has my blessing to fight back if she thinks that's her best option, or not if she thinks fight back is not the best option.  I also told her that if someone just smacks her and then runs away, that doesn't give her an excuse to go chasing after that person and doing to them what he or she did to her.  There's a world of difference between someone trying to pound your head into the pavement like a tent stake and someone slapping you and running away or merely saying something to you that you don't like.

In any situation where she can get her teachers, or the school's principal, or the campus Police, or her father to address the issue, she should do so.  If someone backs her into a corner and tries to club her to death, then I think she should fight back as best she can.  I think standing there and allowing someone to beat you to death is pure idiocy, but apparently that's just me.  Science says people who fight back generally live longer than people who don't, but liberals only believe in science until it conflicts with their emotions or ideology.  Anyway, that's just "uncommon sense" in my book.  There's no single answer to every conceivable problem, especially when lives are at stake.  As I told her in closing, "Welcome to the not-so-black-and-white real world.  Think through what you intend to do very carefully before you arrive at a situation where you only have a split second to act."

That's the idiocy of politically correctness. People seems unable to understand the context in which we are. Our ancestors used to said that every rules have to be applied "cum granu salis" that can be translated "with a grain of salt".

Last edited by Quaoar (2020-03-24 16:08:13)

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#188 2020-03-24 16:25:28

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,368

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Has little to do with education when a person does not care if he sneezed into there hands or just walked out of using the bathroom  as they go about touching everything as if its nothing. They just do not care. As far as the stores and other places that had to be told to wash constantly to prevent that touch from the unclean as it went to the point of now the casher must get a cup/lid for drinks, unwrapper steirers are now paper covered plastic straws, that any self serve foods now must be passed to you by that same cashier.

As far as children and fights its always the cops and others that never see how its started and whom seem to always pick the wrong side of what has been seen. My sons and daughter were taught to not pick a fight but if the bully takes that swing to land a few of there own to set the ground straight. Of course these days the person that is seen is the one arrested and not the other way around....

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#189 2020-03-24 16:49:55

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,348

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

SpaceNut,

I'm just ticked off that we can't seem to teach more people basic self-respect, respect for others, and a little bit of gratitude for what we do have- which is way more than a lot of people I've met in foreign countries will ever have.  I guess you can file that last one under the whining and complaining folder.  I can tell you this, though.  Something definitely needs to change.

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#190 2020-03-24 16:57:20

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,368

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Its that do not care additude that must go, I see it every day at work with something that is simple as that you take a part out of a group of bins with simular but different parts that it is not alright to just place it back in some random bin which was not the one you have taken it out of...

The middle school does teach "basic self-respect, respect for others," but it does not stick with them once in high school from what I have seen...

Something to take note of for the dying is that for every three that die 2 of them are men,,,

I think all things are part of the war front on viruses that are of pandemic levels as the corona has shown.

Things as simple as PPE have been as daunting as the ventilator for support of those that are sick.

Its about having the right amount of equipment in storage for later use that is current in all location of use and up to date that is important for all avenues for a defense and offense to be able to fight any and all infections that might come our way. Its not about one type of equipment over the other but a collective level of all important items which can be use.

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#191 2020-03-24 17:39:27

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,657

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

It's very commendable of you, Quaoar, that you are prepared to help your community with your skills.

All the best in your volunteer role. .

Quaoar wrote:

13th day of "house arrest".
Every day is the same. I know it's Saturday 21 only because it's written on my computer.
I go out to buy some fruit. There is a long line in front of the grocery store, so I walk 200 meters to another grocery, which is deserted. The scaffolds are still plenty of fruit. I buy some bananas, oranges, apples and onions and quickly go back home. I make some gym in my room, then I write the 4th capitol of my new SF novel, about a chase with flying boats on a super-earth tidal-locked to a red dwarf. Then I eat two eggs and some fruits, I give some kibble to Mr. Spock (my cat) and restart writing.
In the meantime it is now evening. I open google news: today we lost 793 people (546 in Lombardy) and the total death toll has rose to 4832. Many doctors have been infected and are out of fight. In northern Italy hospitals have ran out of doctors.
I read an advice of Italian Civil Protection Agency looking for volunteers.
I'm a SF writer, but I'm still a medical doctor with three decades of experience. I have a briefing with my son and my daughter, who grant me the permission, then I fill the form and enroll myself.
In the next few days I might be deployed on the battlefield, but I hope I will continue to post in this forum.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#192 2020-03-24 17:52:36

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,368

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

In the land of just wait the weather will change we had a 6 " snow storm that came through starting yesterday and today its hot enough to melt about half of it exposing bare ground once more in good portions of my yard. Sure it looks nice but I am so done with winter since we got spoiled with those 60' temps during these last few weeks.

Things that we need for the health care of those that are sick which have been found to be in insufficient levels: Ventilators,
PPE in the form of face masks, face shields, and now Key medical glove factories cutting staff 50% amid virus

We also found out today that California Minor First Person Under 18 to Die of Coronavirus in the U.S. that was a healthy person.

State-by-state coronavirus news

I hope this is not the aditude for all as Texas' lieutenant governor suggests grandparents are willing to die for US economy

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#193 2020-03-25 17:49:51

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 2,202

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Here is a bit of good news from the UK:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/uk-researche … 12878.html

The article describes a team working on a test kit that works at the molecular level, and which (apparently) uses a smart phone for computer power and reporting.  The test kit is reported to be (relatively) inexpensive, and suitable for use at home or small businesses.

In another part of the news feed, I saw a reference to Ford (motor company) planning to make ventilators using electric blowers from automobiles.

(th)

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#194 2020-03-25 19:55:40

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,368

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Today is day 7 of stay at home..

We have people in state of NH that have had a test done but still have not recieved any results from it even at day 7...

I did hear for a place the is reusing mask that they are irradaiting them before recycling them for use once more.
Another source for masks happened to come from the day time tv shows that have actors playing as doctors that have bee given to hospitals in need of them. With this unlikely source of them doing the same to help Nail salons and spas around the country are donating masks, gloves to hospitals

The few places that are making masks out of other materials are sewing them by hand. BB11Hbg4.img?h=373&w=624&m=6&q=60&o=t&l=f


They have also started to treat patients with seirum from people that have survived the virus to administer to those in need of it for trials to see if its going to work.

We all think that hoarding is wrong and some are being caught and placed in jail but here are some more dumb things Man licks deodorant in Walmart for virus prank video, police say of course this is even further down the path as  Man charged with terroristic threats for allegedly coughing on Wegmans worker

The question of going out and doing what we need to do is still in a state of change as stores in my area have started closing at 6pm in some cases that would normally be open until 9 or so. That said just how many states are stay at home 17 states that are stay-at-home orders. https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/23/us/coron … index.html
What constitutes 'essential businesses'? States have varying standards

Those that sing or play instruments are doing there part to keep spirits high for those that are being shut in to protect and for the many that are serving the many which are sick.

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#195 2020-03-26 08:41:06

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,368

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

The late stay at home command which started for the most part a week ago in NH is and will need to be extended IMO as a family friend in a major city in the state has a member of compromised condition that seems to have contracted corona from going to a heart specialist office prior to that stay at home status near the begining of March. They are now in a hospital with remaining family unable to go to visit as a quarantine at home status is for them.

Edit:
just got a post card in the mail from the President Trump's Coronavirus guidlines for america cdc and whstating for information visit:
http://coronavirus.gov   dated 3-16-20

Saw briefly the NH gov. sununu press conference but will need to catch up on content a bit later.

We all need to take this seriously no matter what age we are as  New Jersey native in her 30s succumbs to coronavirus-related illness

Video She had COVID-19, but no insurance. Her treatment cost $34,972.
Little girl's plea to stay home during COVID-19

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#196 2020-03-26 12:19:52

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,240
Website

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Mild cough, no fever, stuffed nose a couple of days ago, slight aches. Still, I'm self isolating until Monday.

I caught it from my mother, who developed symptoms on Thursday, but no cough or fever. Now, the NHS *official* advice doesn't have a stuffed nose and sore throat as symptoms of COVID-19, but the WHO and Harvard University both *do*. So I may or may not have it, but I won't be able to know for sure until I can get an antibody test.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#197 2020-03-26 13:23:18

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 2,202

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

For SpaceNut re #195 ... the local daily health briefing just concluded ... early data seems to show a strict policy is bending the curve.

The Governor said to plan for no school for the rest of this year, and it is too early to think about next year.
The Governor is a baseball fan, and he praised the industry and political leaders for holding off on season opening celebrations.

For Terraformer re #196 ... best wishes for recovery for both you AND your Mom!

And! Best wishes for find the needed tests for both of you!

(th)

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#198 2020-03-26 14:22:17

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,240
Website

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Well, my mother seems to be better now, and it's seven days since she got symptoms.

My father, on the other hand, is still coughing away, but that's not unusual for him. I think we'll be alright.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#199 2020-03-26 14:49:40

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,348

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

There are airliners flying over my house again.  That's generally a good sign.

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#200 2020-03-26 18:24:45

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,657

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

The "official" symptoms publicised by UK authorities are completely misleading and wrong in suggesting they are a necessary sign of Covid-19 infection. I have heard lots of people confirmed to have Covid-19 who have described a range of symptoms - it's the same with the flu...some people experience no symptoms, some cold-type symptoms, some muscle aches, some dry, some productive coughs and some breathing difficulties - high temperatures are not always part of the picture. 

By publicising the two symptoms (really associated more with the serious forms of the disease) ie dry cough and high temperature, they have totally confused everyone.

I think I had it mid-February - it was a sudden onset of slight breathlessness, with no preliminaries, such as a stuffy nose in my case. An Oxford Uni study suggests it was in the UK in early Jan and that by mid March half the population had been infected...London where I live was obviously an early hotspot so it's quite possible, as I was travelling on the tube back then.   

I believe it's one of those infections that lingers and comes back at intervals in different ways even if you don't have a serious bout. 

Terraformer wrote:

Mild cough, no fever, stuffed nose a couple of days ago, slight aches. Still, I'm self isolating until Monday.

I caught it from my mother, who developed symptoms on Thursday, but no cough or fever. Now, the NHS *official* advice doesn't have a stuffed nose and sore throat as symptoms of COVID-19, but the WHO and Harvard University both *do*. So I may or may not have it, but I won't be able to know for sure until I can get an antibody test.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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