Electron Microscope Virus Identification

tahanson43206 · 2020-03-24 11:43:29

For SpaceNut and All ...

Starting a new topic is NOT something I take lightly.

However, I have invited persons currently employed in the Electron Microscope industry to participate in the forum, and I have offered a clean topic for their participation.

Before creating this topic, I ran a search for "electron and microscope" by Post, and found a number of references going back to 2004.

For SpaceNut ... if you run the same search, you will find that messages from 2004 are not formatting correctly in the search results.

They ** do ** format correctly when opened directly from the search results.

***
The purpose of this new topic is to encourage collection of all available information about how existing electron microscopes can be enlisted to identify COVID-19 virus in a sample of fluid from a human patient, or from the surface of a fixture where it might exist, such as a door handle.

It is known that the COVID-19 virus can be imaged directly. There are posts on the forum already with links to images posted by US government agencies.

However, it is NOT at ALL clear that a technician (or medical professional) looking at those images can accurately differentiate the COVID-19 virus from any of the many similar virus in the Corona family.

Looking at this from the Mars perspective, a Quarantine Facility on Phobos would need to be able to examine the body fluids of every passenger arriving from Earth, and secure an accurate inventory of ** every ** virus present in the sample, as well as larger biological structures such as bacteria.

Finally ... cleaning of water supplies is a problem on Earth today, and it most certainly will be a problem on Mars in future.

According to information I have seen recently, electron microscopes on the market today on Earth are capable of identifying a number of atom types.

I would like to see this capability implemented on a scale large enough to select atoms desired for human consumption in a flow of source liquid, and to remove or divert atoms (such as carbon) which are NOT desired for human consumption in drinking water.

As a reminder for anyone who might read this and not be aware, pure water is NOT suitable for human consumption. Humans evolved on Earth to depend upon a rich supply of atom types collected by rain water as it percolates through the rocks and soil. This topic has been covered in detail elsewhere in the forum archive.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-03-24 12:47:50

A version of a microscope with lenses was something I worked in the 80's lab that was designing cd roms and we were able to display on a tv monitor at the time a 1 micron spot that had been writen on the media at the time. Its the same things that currently are within the average cdrom player heads just taking the outputs to a visual system instead of making sound with them.

Sure we use an air pressure suspended table for vibration removal, a co2 laser, optic beam splitters, quadrant sensor ect...

I am sure we can see even small items by now on would hope.

I will see if I can find the topics to begin fixing them.

tahanson43206 · 2020-03-24 13:58:39

For SpaceNut re topic

Thank you for accepting this new topic!

And thank you for taking a look at those 2004 posts, if you get time.

I did a quick Google search for installations of electron microscopes, and found citations for a number of them.

To avoid duplication of effort, I'd like to suggest we coordinate posting location information as it becomes available.

SearchTerm:LocationElectronMicroscopes
SearchTerm:ElectronMicroscopeLocations

Do you have a suggestion for how citations should be organized? My first thought is by location, but what ** order ** to use is unclear.

Perhaps Nation as the highest level?

Perhaps State or Province next?

Perhaps City or University or Laboratory next?

The point of this exercise is to see if mass production of electron microscopes for disease identification would make sense.

As pointed out in Post #1 ... it is NOT clear (to me at least) that any human being can differentiate COVID-19 from any other similar Corona virus using nothing more than the video display from an electron microscope.

If a human being CAN make such a differentiation, then AI can be enlisted to perform the same feat, and the systems can reasonably be mass produced.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-03-24 15:23:19

the equipment can not be created for use if you can not protect the person entering the sample into the machine was my other post content..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_microscope

so whats the topic... go out and buy one to use...

https://www.bing.com/images?FORM=HDRSC2

tahanson43206 · 2020-03-24 17:05:35

For SpaceNut re #4

Thanks!

I've invited professionals to take part in an exchange of information. It will be helpful if we can retain a tight focus.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-03-24 20:45:01)

SpaceNut · 2020-03-24 19:48:53

I am not sure that its not all that hard to look at something once you know enough to pullout the right tools to see it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus

crown or a solar corona around the virions (virus particles) when viewed under two-dimensional transmission electron microscopy, due to the surface being covered in club-shaped protein spikes.

Coronaviruses: An Overview of Their Replication and Pathogenesis

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/me … onaviridae

tahanson43206 · 2020-03-24 20:52:57

For SpaceNut re topic ...

Thanks for helping to develop this topic! There are electron microscopes in numerous locations around the world, but at present (to the best of my knowledge) none are being used to rapidly identify COVID-19 virus.

There is a proposal to implement daily testing of all workers, as a pre-requisite to putting everyone back to work.

It would be helpful if a medical professional with actual experience using an electron microscope could speak to the question of whether it is easy or difficult or perhaps even impossible to differentiate a COVID-19 virus from the hundreds if not thousands of corona virus that exist in the world.

Your observation about the need to protect the technician performing a test is important. I would like to ask a medical professional to comment upon safe practice while observing the COVID-19 virus. The existing images of this particular virus were obtained using an electron microscope, and I would like to think that the technicians making the observations were protected by protocol and physical barriers. However, the question will remain unanswered until someone with the appropriate experience arrives to help move this topic along.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-03-24 21:42:40

What you are talking about is a specialist which operates the equipment and not normally a doctor, scientist, nurse but a Technician. How much does a Electron Microscopy Technician make? The national average salary for a Electron Microscopy Technician is $34,470 in United States. Of course some areas will pay more in the cities.

The images will show you how the equipment is operated and the PPE that is worn for specific levels of infectious use.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=te … &FORM=IGRE

tahanson43206 · 2020-03-25 08:39:43

For SpaceNut re #8

Thank you for this comprehensive collection of images. The one or two that show medical applications seem most applicable to this topic.

The goals of this topic could include a totally automated testing system using an AI image analysis subsystem to review images collected by the microscope, in an effort to either confirm the COVID-19 virus is present, or report that it was not found, which is not the same as a negative result. The microscope would be MOST useful if it could rapidly identify patients who are infected but do not yet show symptoms.

The process of development of such a system would start with the confirmation that this particular virus can be differentiated from all the hundreds or perhaps thousands of similar Corona virus that are present in the environment, and many of which are present in humans at a low level under normal circumstances.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-03-25 10:01:35

Humans take the sample and its put into a safe controllable shape that is sealed. The transport is by human to the staging area for the clients test to be performed. The sample is preped for insertion into the machine by man due to the shape and or transfer of the material to test into its holder for the equipment. At that point the go button is pushed and test steps are started by computer or visually for some of the types seen. Once test is complete or visually confrmed the botton to stop the testing is hit by the technisian and the sample is removed and processed to be destroyed for safety.

tahanson43206 · 2020-03-25 11:52:02

The quote below is from a web site of a small university which does not have an electron microscope.

Professor ... took students to University of Indianapolis to work on undergraduate
research and use a Scanning Electron Microscope. These microscopes allow you to visualize
surface anatomy of a structure at more than 30,000X magnification. Pictured above is a single
sperm from a lizard endemic to Mexico.

The University of Indianapolis appears to have had an electron microscope at one time.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-03-25 18:46:47

This site in Switzerland appears to offer documentation about electron microscopes:

https://www.microscopy.ethz.ch/emez.htm

Electron Microscopy at ETH Zurich

ScopeM (Scientific Center for Optical and Electron Microscopy, formerly EMEZ) comprises members from several departments, including Inorganic Chemistry, Cell Biology, Geology, Materials Science, and Solid State Physics. The main aim of the EMEZ is to use and maintain the existing electron microscopes most efficiently and to optimize the microscopy infrastructure according to the needs of the members. Furthermore, research projects on various electron microscopy topics are being performed (partly in close cooperation with the members) and service and support is provided.
For electron microscopy investigations at the ScopeM, conducted either by the user itself or as a service by the ScopeMstaff, the submission of a project proposal is required.
Contact ScopeM: Dr. Nicolas Blanc,
E-mail:nicolas.blanc@scopem.ethz.ch
For EM in the Laboratory of Inorganic Chemistry, the responsible person is Frank Krumeich.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-03-26 07:16:11

This is a followup to #12

Thank you for your email.
ScopeM was shut down last week. However ETH Domain has established a COVID-19 task force – see https://www.ethrat.ch/en/eth-domain-covid-19-task-force – and ScopeM will already (where needed/appropriate) contribute to projects on COVID-19 virus in the frame set by ETH. Further requests for exemptions (for using/accessing ScopeM despite the shutdown) were evaluated & selected earlier this week by a committee. Those are the sole projects ScopeM is / will be allowed to pursue.
Best, Nicolas
ETH Zurich
Dr. Nicolas Blanc
Managing Director
Scientific Center for Optical and Electron Microscopy (ScopeM)

It was generous of Dr. Blanc to reply to the inquiry I sent on behalf of the forum.

It is encouraging to see that the facility will continue in operation (presumably under conditions of clean room scale).

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-03-30 13:54:11

repost

tahanson43206 wrote:

For GW Johnson re #1582
Thank you for your (as always) sensible observation about the current crisis, about values in general and caring for others in particular.
Just FYI ... I opened a topic about using electron microscopes to identify the SARS-2 virus quickly. So far I have contacted a manufacturer of electron microscopes, an international association of electron microscope researchers, a local TV reporter, and a local news print reporter.
So far the responses I've received have been:
a) Cover my company from possible fault
b) Cover my association from possible fault
c) Nothing
In the case of the print reporter .... I wrote her after she published a long interview with a local PhD level researcher who's been studying the Corona virus family for 40 years. The interview specifically mentioned the good Doctor spending hours looking at samples through an electron microscope.
I am hoping that other members of this forum, and readers of the forum who are not members, have been equally active in pursuit of an answer to the question I asked everyone ... can a trained observer (such as the PhD level researcher) identify the SARS-2 virus visually from an electron microscope display.
Without a positive answer, I cannot proceed to the next logical step, which is to encourage mass production of the least expensive model and training of the required operators to be able to safely examine millions of people as they are poised to re-enter their work places.
Thanks again for your calm, reasoned evaluation of the current situation.
(th)

As for visual identifiers when something looks simular you can get a visual identification wrong. Its suttle details when not veiwed by the unknowledgeable that leads to the incorrect sightings. That is part of why we are looking to use genetic types of test to detect even with the amount of error that they still can have. The question then is for is one or the other means to detect better than the other.

tahanson43206 · 2020-03-31 18:06:13

For SpaceNut re topic visibility

For a few days, (with your indulgence) I will try to keep this topic visible in the Active list.

I have written to a number of individuals and organizations requesting assistance in finding an answer to the question posed in Post #1.

For some I have offered this forum as a place to enter into conversation if there is an interest in doing so.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-03-31 18:28:54

I have been trying to weed out the spammers each day as quickly as I can but they are still coming in at a good clip....

tahanson43206 · 2020-04-01 09:23:53

For SpaceNut re topic ...

I have just added another influencer to the list of contacts invited to help with the electron microscope question posed by this topic.

In addition, I've invited another influencer to help find contributors to the electromagnetic launch topic.

With so many folks with LOTS of education and LOTS of experience at home, looking for an activity, I'm hoping this forum will attract one of two of them.

Edit #1: I just received a reply from a person managing email for an influencer:

Thanks for writing in and for your feedback. I’ll pass it along to our team.
Best,

The inquiry could still expire in the organization, but at least it has a chance to sit on first base for evaluation.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-04-01 13:41:08)

tahanson43206 · 2020-04-29 12:15:43

If anyone is interested in attending an online webinar offered by a manufacturer, let me know and I'll send you the link.

I'm not here to promote any particular company, but I ** did ** ask for information about how electron microscopes might be used to "see" virus in persons seeking admission to a facility or asking for information about their status, so (I'm guessing) this is a round-about way of answering.

Scanning transmission electron microscopy (STEM) using a scanning electron microscope (SEM) is widely utilized today in many fields including biology, soft materials, semiconductors, and materials science for synergistic analyses that encompass not only surface information, but also that of fine inner composition. There are two main types of STEM imaging, Bright-Field (BF) and Dark-Field (DF), which utilize the physics of an electron microscope in order to obtain different but equally valuable information. There are challenges with such techniques, however, when using a conventional SEM. In this session, we will investigate the principles of STEM imaging in an SEM by highlighting advantages of a new UVD-STEM technology that utilizes light signals for high-resolution, low-noise transmitted images moreover making such analysis applicable and available to a wider range of users.
Join us to experience and explore the new age of electron microscopy

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-04-30 11:34:57

Inquiry update ...

I just emailed another inquiry to another prestigious institution, asking for guidance regarding the premise of this topic (see Post #1)

I'll report if anything comes in.

To recap my batting performance to date:

1) Inquiry to top-tier manufacturer of Electron Microscopes: Result: a flurry of Cover-My-Lawsuits email
2) Inquiry to international association of electron microscope researchers: Result: a flurry of Cover-my-Lawsuits email
3) Inquiry of top tier local reporter from a major local news media outlet: Result: NaDa
4) Inquiry of regular reporter for a major news media outlet, regarding interview with local PhD virus researcher: Result: NaDa

The only positive result of the foregoing activity is the seminar opportunity reported in the post ahead of this one.

I guess that is better than nothing.

However, it is only ** slightly ** better than nothing, because it leaves it to the reader to find the answer to the original question.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-04-30 11:35:32)

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#1 2020-03-24 11:43:29

Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#2 2020-03-24 12:47:50

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#3 2020-03-24 13:58:39

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#4 2020-03-24 15:23:19

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#5 2020-03-24 17:05:35

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#6 2020-03-24 19:48:53

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#7 2020-03-24 20:52:57

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#8 2020-03-24 21:42:40

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#9 2020-03-25 08:39:43

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#10 2020-03-25 10:01:35

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#11 2020-03-25 11:52:02

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#12 2020-03-25 18:46:47

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#13 2020-03-26 07:16:11

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#14 2020-03-30 13:54:11

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#15 2020-03-31 18:06:13

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#16 2020-03-31 18:28:54

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#17 2020-04-01 09:23:53

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#18 2020-04-29 12:15:43

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

#19 2020-04-30 11:34:57

Re: Electron Microscope Virus Identification

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