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#51 2018-02-22 15:06:57

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,898
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Re: Recent Water on Mars

Actually, I think genetically engineered yeast to produce milk is a good idea. As long as it's real.

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#52 2018-04-21 08:50:25

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,368

Re: Recent Water on Mars

Ancient Lakes on Mars Dried Up Billions of Years Ago, Study Concludes that the cracks identified on Mars's surface last year by the Curiosity rover are indeed evidence of ancient lakes that likely dried up about 3.5 billion years ago.

0420mars.jpg

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … li=BBnb7Kz

Researchers used the Curiosity rover and data from its many tools, particularly the Mars Hand Lens Imager, ChemCam Laser Induced Breakdown Spectrometer (LIBS) and the Alpha-Particle X-Ray Spectrometer (APXS) to study both the physical appearance and the chemistry of the rock, which is described as no bigger than a coffee table.

The analysis revealed that cracks on the rocks were formed by exposure to air, rather than heat or the flow of water. In addition, the shape of the cracks suggests the occurrence of a single drying event on the planet, rather than multiple cycles of the planet getting wet and drying over. The position of the cracks, closer to the center of the ancient lake rather than along the edges, also suggests that the lake levels changed often, rising and falling dramatically over time.

"The mudcracks are exciting because they add context to our understanding of this ancient lacustrine system," lead study author Nathaniel Stein, a geologist at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, said in a statement, referring to the ancient lake system on the planet.

Scientists have known of the existence of ancient water on Mars for years. A 2015 NASA study that measured water signatures in Mars’ atmosphere suggested that ancient oceans may once have had more water than our own Arctic Ocean. However, because the planet has less gravity and a thinner atmosphere than Earth, this water evaporated into space over the course of several billion years.

Water still exists on Mars in the form of ice. In 2015, NASA scientists found a slab of ice just beneath Mars' surface that was estimated to be as big as California and Texas combined.

Some have even suggested that there may still be liquid water flowing on Mars.

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#53 2018-04-21 14:14:05

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,024

Re: Recent Water on Mars

Spacenut,

I read my post #1 and your post just before this.  Interesting.

I think that their assertion can be taken largely seriously.  I do think that for some reason, and they say 3.5 billion years ago, the Martian atmosphere dissipated to the point that planet wide liquid water became unlikely.

They still seem to suggest evaporation to space.  Maybe.  Still there are those who say that the Mariner rift valley shows evidence of being filled with ice with a thick soil layer over it.  I could go on.  My point though is while I support the material of your post rather strongly, I don't think we have enough information to prove that that ancient ocean of the Northern hemisphere including the Mariner rift valley did not just freeze over, and is now covered with a very thick layer of regolith.

I did not think that could be possible before, but Utopia planetia apparently is stable, with a layer of ice several hundred feet thick with covered with dirt and rock 3-33 meters thick???

So, I say, I just am not sure.

But I agree that the atmosphere dissipated by some method, either to space or to go underground as clathrate in the ice, if major seas, or wet based glaciers were present prior to the atmospheric collapse.

......

A latest thing I have seen about the moons of Mars, is that they were formed by the impact of a dwarf planet with Mars.  This supposedly created several moons, and the largest have already crashed back into Mars.

https://phys.org/news/2016-07-giant-imp … moons.html

Still I think they indicate that it happened very early in the history of Mars, not 3.5 billion years ago.  If it was 3.5 billion years ago, I would suppose that the Martian atmosphere would have gotten expelled, by an iron atmosphere around Mars.  But then why would Mars have significant water???  So, probably not the answer.

......

I am going to leave it alone other than to agree that the atmosphere dissipated, most likely as they seem to indicate ~3.5 billion years ago.
Not all the water dissipated.  In fact it may be that not a huge amount of it left Mars.  Or perhaps much did.  Without more information I cannot know.

.....

This I have though which could be useful, to argue for a minor occasional role for liquid on Mars, if a special event were to happen.  I large impact.  And eruption of significance. 

Or, the axis of Mars tilting so that the North Pole, South Pole, and Equator receive approximately the same amount of energy from the sun on an annual basis.

This assertion has to do with the freezing point of CO2.  If no place on the surface of Mars would be cold enough to permanently capture CO2 as ice, the atmospheric pressure of Mars would rise to an average of 11 mb.  This assertion is based on the amount of permanent CO2 ice which is said to be found in the South Polar ice cap of Mars.

At 11 mb, two things can happen that don't much happen now:
1) Snowfalls.
2) Temporary water streams from snow melts.

Temporary streams in Antarctica do not even require temperatures of the air above freezing.  If strong sunlight is present such melts happen in Antarctica even when the air temperature is somewhat below freezing.

At the equator of Mars, you might get something similar, but it would be daily perhaps most likely just after noon time.

Temporary streams might fill ponds, or even small lakes.  These bodies of water would be ice covered however.  The ice would also tend to sublimate at a high rate.  However, with dust storms the ice might get covered with a protective layer of dirt, which would buffer the temperatures experienced by the ice below, and reduce the highest temperatures experienced.

So, I am saying that as a whole most likely liquid water stopped occurring in significance on the surface of Mars 3.5 billion years ago as your post seems to state.  However I make some exception for periodic and localized events of melting of less significance, and most likely of a temporary nature.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-21 14:32:24)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#54 2018-04-21 18:31:09

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,024

Re: Recent Water on Mars

I have given a somewhat upbeat notion of temporary and local water on Mars in post #53, which I think might happen in an ideal situation of the tilt of the planet, where the Equator, South Pole, and North Pole receive sufficient warming, to prevent large scale CO2 ice to persist.

However I want to say that I think that conversely, if the poles were to be for period of several million years not tilted much at all, then the conditions on the planet might be lethal to life.

That is in that case CO2 freezing in any shadows of craters, or perhaps even just on the polar axis of North and South, might not thaw much at all ever during that period.  So, under those conditions, what if the atmospheric pressure of Mars was largely sustained by Nitrogen and Argon.  Would it even be say 5% of what it is now?  Well even 10%, 25%???

Well under those conditions, it would think that much water moisture in the soil and any presumed aquifers would migrate to the poles as well.  The aquifers would become extremely salty, very likely too salty for life, if they are not already now.  (This notion of too salty aquifers is one I acquired from Josh in the past).

So, my point is that even microbes on Mars in deep aquifers might be very challenged for survival due to the wandering of the Martian poles.

I think that Mars provides it's own extinction episodes by this method.  Mars may have been alive to start with say for 1 billion years, or a little more, but I think it likely that it has had total extinctions repeatedly.

It may have had life restarted several times by panspermia, but I expect that each episode of life was followed by a total or nearly total extinction.

The one exception I might provide would be something very deep down that relies on the production of Hydrogen by radioactive decay.  On Earth this is seen in South African mines, maybe 3 miles down.

But that would also require water that is not so briny that life can't make it.  Maybe water placed in those deeps before the atmosphere collapses.

But of course I don't know really.

To find it you would really need to go down deep.  It would not make sense to do so unless you found fossil evidence of previous life on or near the surface of Mars prior to that effort.

I think Mars is totally or largely dead.

Venus?  Actually I think there may be serious chances of life.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#55 2019-05-10 19:22:12

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,368

Re: Recent Water on Mars

omething that I will post about later in the correct topics but want to note it for the calendar as these are special events to make note of..

New water cycle on Mars discovered

Winter to summer seasonal evaporations forming clouds. We also seem to have another seasonal event with dust storms as well.

For InSight Dust Cleanings Will Yield New Science of which they seem to be linked together as  Martian Dust Could Help Explain Water Loss Plus Other Learnings From Global Storm

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#56 2019-05-16 19:09:33

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,368

Re: Recent Water on Mars

Water and the who, what, where, when how questions that man needs is getting some more thoughts on what is cause the water to go and where.
How the Sun pumps out water from Mars into space

sun-pumps-water-from-mars-into-space-hg.jpg

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#57 2020-01-20 19:27:08

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,368

Re: Recent Water on Mars

Not good Martian water could disappear faster than expected

When the sun lights up the large reservoirs of ice at the poles, water vapor is released into the atmosphere. These water molecules are then transported by winds toward higher and colder altitudes where, in the presence of dust particles, they can condense into clouds and prevent a rapid and mass progression of water toward higher altitudes (as on Earth). On Mars condensation is often hindered. The atmosphere is thus regularly supersaturated in water vapor, which allows even more water to reach the upper atmosphere, where the sun's UV rays disassociate them into atoms. The discovery of the increased presence of water vapor at very high altitude entails that a greater number of hydrogen and oxygen atoms are able to escape from Mars, amplifying the loss of Martian water over the long term.

An international research team,1 led partly by CNRS researcher Franck Montmessin, has just revealed that water vapour is accumulating in large quantities and unexpected proportions at an altitude of over 80 km in the Martian atmosphere.

Measurements showed that large atmospheric pockets are even in a state of supersaturation, with the atmosphere containing 10 to 100 times more water vapour than its temperature should theoretically allow.

http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.aay9522

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#58 2020-01-31 21:37:00

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,368

Re: Recent Water on Mars

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#59 2020-02-16 11:38:50

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,368

Re: Recent Water on Mars

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Grypd re #61

Your line about underground Aquifers is the inspiration for this post.  However, the mention of your long tenure here led me to check out your 1853 posts, or (more accurately) the tip of the long stream of your posts.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 303#p40303

This topic and several adjacent to it were interesting to me because of the perspective of the English experience with management of crime.

I came away from a brief visit with those posts thinking that your recommendation is that Mars NOT be used as a penal colony.  I found myself in agreement with your recommendation to set up a Canadian Mounties type police force.  I noted your recommendation that this force must be designed to resist and foil any attempt by a would-be dictator to take over the force.

However ... to your post!

The possibility of underground Aquifers makes sense to me, but (to my knowledge at this moment) no technology exists that is capable of finding a particular atom or compound in the interior of Mars.   If you are aware of technologies that are capable of identifying deposits of water or useful minerals under the surface of an object such as a planet, I'd really appreciate your posting about them in the forum.

For consideration of SpaceNut's efforts to try to direct the flow of posts into somewhat meaningful directions, please find out from SpaceNut where such posts should go.

I am aware of these technologies that might help:

1) Radar (various frequencies)
2) Sonar (probably various frequencies but I'm not sure)
3) Measurement of particles of various kinds

This later technology has the greatest potential for planetary interior discovery, but it also requires the greatest investment.

Neutrinos are (I gather) extremely difficult to work with because of their weak interaction with ordinary matter.  However, apparently they CAN be employed to discover facts about matter between their point of origin (eg, the Sun) and the detector.

We on Earth would certainly benefit from discovery of a technology that allowed for precise location of deposits of oil, water, natural gas, minerals of all kinds and specific substances such as Uranium.  To my knowledge, such technology only exists in conceptual form in science fiction and Star Trek episodes.

This topic is about solar power towers on Mars, so I'll admit that discussion of technology to investigate the interior of a planet is a stretch.

The link (if there is one) is your introduction of the idea of digging a well << grin >>

In closing ... you still maintain your point-of-origin as Scotland.  I would imagine you've noted the arrival of Calliban in the forum.  He started out from Scotland, but for political correctness reasons (I'm guessing) he changed to "Northern England".   Americans (I believe) have a tendency to associate Scotland with great engineering feats, and with great engineers, so I appreciate your hanging on to your Scottish connection.

(th)

Grypd wrote:

Well the best way to find out was underground is by listening to sound waves as they pass through rock. Through the time and the distortion of sound and of course our knowledge from Earth updated to Martian standards we will learn. We already use radar to look for minerals but also we look using changes in magnetism. We know there are Aquifers possibly of non frozen water as we have seen these leak and leave obvious geological features.
Mars has a metallic core as we understand it and it is hot and a liguid it just does not move so no magnetic field. This means as you tunnel down the rocks will get hotter and we can use this possibly through a stirling engine to provide not only power but as a source of heat for Martian domes. Another means of terraforming is creating very large deep holes so the heat could be released to help heat the planet these are called Moholes https://marsproject.com/mohole.htm
And yes im from Scotland in fact im from the Highlands

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#60 2020-03-14 09:53:03

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 231

Re: Recent Water on Mars

About making water, is the following imagination possible and practical:
Abundant of oxygen are available after mining on Mars and the release to human consumption in settlements. About 90% of the cosmic ray bare atoms are protons, stripped of electrons. Could cosmic ray that is supposed to be inbounding to Mars be concentrated on a designated location on Mars, Phobos or Deimos where the ray shoots on processed ore leftover oxides. Then water can be extracted and the element bound by the oxygen can be processed as scrap elements.

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#61 2020-03-14 15:31:21

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 2,202

Re: Recent Water on Mars

For knightdepais re #60

Bravo for offering a most interesting idea.  I am wondering what the abundance of free flying protons might be at the orbit of Mars.  The capture of such protons does NOT need to be limited to the immediate vicinity of Mars.

Is there a member of the registered members who can comment (intelligently) on this idea?

If there is a reader who is knowledgeable on this subject, and not yet registered, the process of registration is essentially unfiltered.

One thing you can do to avoid being banned is to post something that is relevant to the overall theme of the forum, and hopefully, to this topic in particular.

(th)

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#62 2020-04-03 12:50:04

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 2,202

Re: Recent Water on Mars

The link below was forwarded by a relative.  It reports on recent research showing what appear to be two different types of water on Mars, and tentative speculation that the origin of the planet may differ significantly from earlier guesses ...

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/world/ma … index.html

(th)

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#63 2020-04-03 16:14:57

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,368

Re: Recent Water on Mars

The article calls for 35% of what mars did have for water to be underground. Some form of techtonic plates would on earth account for the amount but for mars was the core active long enough for this to happen? Much like Earth Mars got its water in the same manner from natural causes but the unatural events of how fast is where mars is today for none on the surface another than in a mixed ice form at the poles and in deep caverns walls. A tell for the water is in the Hydrogen isotopes that are present.
Getting back to the large quantity beneath the ground is something that radar has said is present but its not clear as to the depth as we are looking at a composite reflection made from however deep the energy went to how it reflected back to the recieving sensor. Do we trust it and blindly go for mars with out a deep sample and if we land with a heavy starship will it support the mass or collaspse.
Water is essential for man to survive and the more energy that we require to manufacture it means that man will have less of a chance to stay.

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